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Hi there. I was hoping you wouldn't mind providing some input on my situation.

I took my first piano lesson something like 37 years ago, and I played for 12 years. Then followed many, many years when I did not play and last spring I acquired a piano. My 8 yr old, 3rd grade daughter started taking private, 30 minute lessons after school two months ago. I think, perhaps, that piano teaching techniques have evolved substantially since I learned. However, I am concerned about her lessons.

Her teacher was recently hired by the music department to instruct after school, so he does not have a long track record with the school although he appears to be an accomplished musician. At the beginning of the year, he told me that they would use whatever books I liked, but after a week or two suggested that I purchase the very beginning level Alfred books. It is now two months later, and they are still in the middle of the Alfred 1A books. My daughter is fairly diligent about practising, but there is almost nothing for her to practise. If she does her "homework" pieces 10 times, it will not take more than 5 minutes.

My daughter is becoming frustrated and discouraged. She has a beautiful voice and loves to sing and was hoping she could learn songs to sing along with--even the simple songs like twinkle twinkle or mary had a little lamb would be welcome. That appears to be a very long way off as they continue to slog through Alfred's 1A. Also, apparently her teacher told her that HE learned from the Alfred's 1A book when he was four years old. Of course that piece of information has not turned out to be very helpful and it irks my daughter even more, as she is convinced it is a "baby book."

I emailed the piano teacher about her progress and he replied he was a firm believer in establishing a good foundation and going very slowly at first. I appreciate this, especially since I would have benefitted from a stronger foundation myself. I am just wondering if perhaps they really are moving just too slowly.

Any thoughts you could share would be very helpful.

I have been that teacher before. I'm going to listen with interest to the contributions of the better & more experienced teachers and parents here about different ways of approaching a situation like this.

I can say, from personal experience, that some brand-new teachers (like me fifteen years ago) can become very nervous when it seems to them that their competence is being questioned; but often a suggestion that fits "beside" what the teacher is doing (not "instead of" what the teacher is doing) will be easier for a new teacher to handle.

Please do sing songs all the time, both by yourself and with your daughter. She will love it, and hearing her mother sing can be a bigger piece of your daughter's music education than any kind of lessons.

If the teacher has used the same method, I'm assuming he's using the old Alfred books. Not good. Alfred has recently published a MUCH better series.

edited

If your 8 year old daughter manages all her practice in 10 minutes a day then yes, things are progressing too slowly. It sounds as if your daughter would be quite thrilled to practice for at least 20 minutes a day, if not 30++! But without enough new material those minutes simply aren't needed.

I also think that there are far more appealing methods available in 2010 than the books your daughter is using. You need to look after your daughter's development first and foremost. Try talking with the teacher again, but be prepared to find a new teacher too - it's very hard for you to know whether this teacher is doing the right thing or the wrong thing, but it's quite easy for you to see if your daughter is engaged and making progress....

Hi Jenly,

You pose questions which we really cannot correctly address without observing the situation first hand. But we can offer some general observations on beginning students, and as you asked for our thoughts, here are some of mine:

First off, 30 minute lessons are not long enough for the teacher or the student to get into any depth during the lesson. Consider that the first 5 minutes or so are "getting started" activities, and the last 5 minutes are "closure." So your daughter is really getting 20 minutes of instruction at best. This is not a formula for rapid progress. A 45 minute lesson would nearly double the actual teaching time, affording your daughter far more study material and progress.

About progress: Generally speaking, a 3rd grader with two months of lessons should be playing simple music, using both hands, but not necessarily playing together, except perhaps for the final notes. Quicker students may be adding some chords to accompany melodies.

Practicing: The initial problem with home practice is that students, and most parents, don't know how to do it, so cannot effectively prepare material from week to week, and this slows down the student's progress. The teacher spends a lot of time correcting what should have been discovered and corrected at home. Third graders do not come to lessons with the necessary mental discipline to hear what they are playing and correct their errors. For the most part, parents can only sit with students and heap praise on them (a very good thing, BTW), because if parents become critical without a good relationship with their student, practicing becomes a daily ordeal. That, we don't want. The general rule, that it's not how many repetitions, but how correctly you play the material, over simplifies, but is still essentially correct. My beginning students receive enough material to keep them fully engaged for 15 min or so, if they repeat carefully and correctly, 5 or 6 times. They don't, but that's the goal.

I cannot comment on Alfred's methods, as I don't use them. But AZN's observations are usually spot on and very solid, so this might be worth exploring with the teacher.

And as Elissa correctly notes, it's very hard for you to know whether this teacher is doing the right thing or the wrong thing, but it's quite easy for you to see if your daughter is engaged and making progress....

Best wishes to you and your daughter,

John

It's been a long time since I used Alfred. It is not the best series for the "good grounding in basics" that your teacher wants to give. I agree that their newest program, called Premier Piano, is significantly better. But both methods come with several different books. From reading your post, I can't tell if your daughter has only the "lesson" book. There are also theory (written), technique, and recital / performance books. The books are made to be used together, and will give your daughter more to practice at home. If the teacher doesn't wish to use all of them, you could probably purchase them for your daughter to play out of on her own. This way she can do the theory worksheets, and practice sightreading, too. Since they are paced with the lesson book, she should be able to understand everything, as long as she doesn't work too far ahead.

Without seeing / hearing the lessons, it is hard to know how your daughter is doing. Occasionally parents think their child is doing fine, when there are rhythm or reading problems they aren't aware of. However, based upon the fact that you played piano, and that your daughter is practicing so much, I think she is indeed moving too slowly.

The teacher is right, grounding is important, and moving too slowly is definitely better than moving too quickly. But it is possible that, since he started a whole group of children at the same time, that he is moving them all along at the same rate, as he is still finding his footing. If he is not keeping notes on each individual child, it is easy to forget which student did which. (Although, in my experience, the truly stellar children are such a breath of fresh air, they are easy to remember!)

In the end, I think you probably need to go with your gut. What kind of contract did you sign? For the whole year? Parents like teachers hired by the school because it is convenient, and sometimes cheaper. First piano teachers are usually chosen for those two reasons. At some point, you will probably need to weigh pros and cons of expense and inconvenience.

Jenly,

I'm not a teacher, but a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I had an eight year old start piano lessons. Like you, I was someone who had studied piano seriously when I was younger.

My son's teacher was not new; she was quite experienced. She had her ways, of course, and he began in a method book (which one is long forgotten). But she adapted her teaching to his progress, and his progress was stimulated by many things. One of those "things" was me, and the teacher used me well. I did all the usual flash card drills to burn the grand staff into his memory. But I also introduced things on my own. We both saw the progress he was making. Late starting students sometimes do that. So she quickened the pace. Meanwhile, I introduced Hanon. He quickly absorbed the first five or so exercises. They were a game for him. Yes, Hanon was fun! His finger dexterity came together really rapidly. Some teachers would have blown a fuse, wagged a finger, and expressed irritation at meddlesome dad. She saw the ease with which he mastered them and added it to the toolkit. More than that, she saw that she could twist this to her own preference (Czerny) to help build the foundation that she wanted. In short, we collaborated.

As others here are noting, you must find someone who works well with what you and your daughter bring to the table. In the end, if you think his methods are not working well, you need to search for a better match. People are often reluctant to do this, for all sorts of reasons. But if you are honestly worried and unsatisfied, you need to do something about it. Fear of making a mistake often freezes people into an unsatisfactory status quo.

Foundations are important, but one can practice material meant for foundations without really getting at them. Supposing that a piece is pretty and easy to remember, and also simple. The simplicity gives the student room to focus on basic things such as good timing, good basic technique, controlled sound etc. There might even be some bits of theory hidden in that music. But if the student is musical she might catch on to the melody and be able to dash it off right away without ever getting to the point. It is a much different kind of practicing if you are trying to get your tempo as good as possible, or listening for the quality of each note and how they fit together. The piece will last longer, and it is interesting in a different way.

So if this teacher believes in foundations, what is he having her aim for as she practices? What can she do with them, and what can she learn or notice?

I was a child who picked things up easily. I didn't have lessons until I was an adult and it took a couple of years to catch on to these basic things. Because music came easily to me I never had to think about them, yet those foundations are what carry us at higher levels. It also makes music even more fascinating. If a teacher doesn't guide what we should be aiming for or listening for we may not get it, at any age.

Thank you very much for all of the responses. The books she are using are the Alfred's Basic Piano Library--the Lesson Book and the Theory Books, both Level 1A, written by Palmer, Manus and Letchco. I suggested we get her the recital book and that has been a recent addition. This is the lesson book: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Alfreds-Basic-Piano-Course-Lesson-Book-Bk-1A/Willard-A-Palmer/e/9780882847887/?itm=1&USRI=alfred%27s+basic+piano+library.

The introduction to the book states that it is a new course, but then I don't see how her teacher could have used it when he was four. He is young, but not that young!

I've been drafting and editing this reply for half an hour now, and I finally understand the problem. Each "lesson" in Alfred's is accompanied by two or three lines of very simple music to practise at home. In order to give her a decent amount of music to practise at home, they would need to cover at least three or four "lessons" per 30 minute class, which I don't think they have time to do. (The class schedule is tight and I don't believe I could easily increase it to 45 minutes.) The Alfred's introduction states, and the teacher said he believes, that the amount of time spent practising is not important. Her teacher initially told her to practise each piece two or three times, and then at my request he increased it to five.

The point about whether she is playing it correctly is a good one, and I think she probably isn't. I looked at what she was practising last night and I can see her timing was definitely off. But she doesn't want me to get involved in her lessons, and I don't want it to be an issue with us, so I just keep out other than reminding her to practise.

Now I really don't know what to do. This is just so very different from the way I learned.

I probably won't do or say anything until January, when the busy holiday season is over.

In the meantime, I've been trying to think of ways to help her get the most out of the very little that she is practising.

* Do you think the piano teacher would mind if I suggested getting her a little tape recorder so they can record the piece played properly during the lesson and she knows what she is aiming for at home? If the idea is to go slowly so she can do it correctly, then she might as well be practising it correctly.

* I also think it would be helpful to get a little notebook where they could write down the assignments instead of just marking the page, since with three books it is getting a bit confusing (although my daughter is not confused). Actually, I thought he could use that opportunity to write down what she should be focusing on.

She's still going to be bored playing the same five notes while perfecting her legato. The only thing I can think of for this is introducing her to some other simple music (we have lots of music books and sheet music), but I'm not sure if that is appropriate. I don't want to undermine her teacher.

I totally agree, and I'm also just speaking as the parent of a piano student who's gone through 3 teachers. If a child is excited about piano and willing to spend a bunch of time on it with an engaged parent, there are plenty of teachers out there that would *LOVE* that kind of kid.

[quote=keystring]Foundations are important, but one can practice material meant for foundations without really getting at them. Supposing that a piece is pretty and easy to remember, and also simple. The simplicity gives the student room to focus on basic things such as good timing, good basic technique, controlled sound etc. There might even be some bits of theory hidden in that music. But if the student is musical she might catch on to the melody and be able to dash it off right away without ever getting to the point. It is a much different kind of practicing if you are trying to get your tempo as good as possible, or listening for the quality of each note and how they fit together. The piece will last longer, and it is interesting in a different way.
quote]

Yes! This is it exactly, except it is not lasting longer and she is not finding it interesting (unfortunately).

Despite all of my years of study, I consider myself a failed student, and I think much of this was because I did not have a good foundation. So I am reluctant to meddle.

To me, this is a major point and reinforces what the teacher is saying about establishing a foundation and why she is not progressing.

I expect my parents to take an active role in practice. An average 8 y/o does not have the discipline or judgment skills at that age to check and redo. They must have the extra set of ears. I take time from the beginning to explain to all parents that sounds coming from the piano does not mean the student is practicing. Practicing is when the student is making an attempt to play using all the teachers suggestions, isolating parts then adding them back in. Even then I will still have some that allow the kids to run through the songs laying on the floor with a toy keyboard (grrrrrr), call that practice then wonder why they aren't progressing. To me, a parent must be involved in practice.

I would be very interested in understanding how you do this. Do parents come to the lessons? If they have no musical training themselves, how do they know whether the child is practising correctly? Do you write notes on the assignments? I was thinking of asking the teacher to record the homework.

Also, she is progressing. But by design they are moving quite slowly.

Progress should not be measured by how far along one is in the book. For beginners, some students "pass" a piece by only playing the right notes. Others "pass" a piece with a higher criteria (notes, tempo, dynamics, understanding of the music). This is due to a variety of factors including a student's age, maturity level, and love of music.

If your child has the will to practice more, by all means, encourage her to do so. When she is asked to practice a piece 5 times, one is always allowed to practice more. Practicing also does not necessary mean (depending on the student) playing from beginning to end and repeat. Ask the teacher to take a lesson to teach her how to practice properly.

If your daughter still has time after practicing correctly, she could also play more pieces than the assigned. Take the initiative to play ahead. I'm sure the teacher would be thrilled by this as long as the additional pieces are not sloppily played.

Regarding having an assignment book, I'm quite surprise this is not a required. Speak to the teacher about this and perhaps you could also ask the teacher to write some notes in her notebook regarding each lesson so you could review and help your daughter more with her lesson.

I would stay with the current teacher. He sounds like he knows what he's doing and knows how to teach your daughter.

Answer me this please. If your daughter is so good, what is to keep her from doing more advanced stuff on her own? In regular school, the top math students do tons of work in math on their own. They don't simply do their assignments in math and then slam the book shut and do nothing else. That's why they're so good in math, all that extra work outside of class.

Hi Gyro. I remember all of your helpful advice during my piano buying days, which are thankfully behind me (for the present time, at least).

I didn't say my daughter was so good. I think she is motivated, but I can't tell if she has any talent or not. I just said she was bored.

I think what didn't come through in my posts was how absolutely simple her homework is. Literally ten bars of music every week. Each hand playing separately. No chords. I think in a couple more weeks they will start some chords. By that point it will have been more than three months of lessons.

The teacher wants to go by the book, and the book is pretty firm about doing things in a certain order. She is also a "good girl" and doesn't want to do anything she isn't supposed to, like going ahead.

But I've pretty much decided we're going to work on a couple of simple Christmas carols together. How much can that screw her up?

Getting an assignment book is definitely a good idea. I use my students' book to not only write out the assignment, but also to make notes to myself about problem areas, and to send notes to the parent about recitals, tuition, etc. Occasionally a parent will write a note to me in it as well.

If the teacher is willing, I'd be inclined to sit in on a few lessons, too. Since he's a new teacher, he may find it intimidating. Take a book or magazine, and make yourself as unobtrusive as possible. Don't answer for your child, don't interrupt or correct, etc. Your goal is to see exactly what the teacher is looking for from your daughter.

My youngest child is a violinist. When she was young, she took Suzuki lessons, which require a parent at every lesson. It was extremely useful in knowing what my daughter was learning, what was expected of her at the lesson, and what was expected of her at home.

About half of my students' parents sit in on lessons. Occasionally I request it, if I feel the child would benefit from more parental involvement. (Some of my parents are clueless about their child's progress or lack of. The student leaves lessons, and says "fine" when asked about it, and the parents believe it.)

Edit: cross-posted. I was actually going to suggest a simple Christmas book for sight-reading practice at home. You might also want to encourage her to create her own music - composing (and writing it out) is such a great way to learn note names and note values. And kids love discovering what sounds good together. In fact, maybe she can write a piece for her teacher as a Christmas present!

Re: Gyro

If you don't coordinate with the teacher you risk creating all sorts of problems, both technical and interpersonal. Non-experts (like me) don't have to be potted plants. We do bring something to the table. But there are usually very cogent reasons why we pay teachers to manage and oversee the learning process.

I require a parent of young children and new students to attend lessons. During the first few lessons, I will instruct the parents on what to listen for, model good/bad, define any words I may use in written notes, what practice is/is not and so on...after all that --I would expect a parent to know that when I said to play the song 5 times in practice, they would know that I mean to work out all the problems to be able to play the song/section PROPERLY 5 times during the practice session.