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#1568284 - 12/01/10 11:37 PM Talented Child vs. Talented Adult
Rui725 Offline
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Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
I have a question (or two) that was sparked by another thread under "Is this child really good (Chopin Waltz in A-Flat major)".

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?

Also, is this "sensitivity" to the language of music an innate trait, regardless of how old you are?


Edited by Rui725 (12/01/10 11:41 PM)

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#1568298 - 12/02/10 12:02 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
david_a Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
I think that very much of the sensitivity can be (and is) learned. I think people who listen to well-played (&/or well-sung) music, of any genre, can often pick up on the "sensitivity models" demonstrated by good musicians.

Fast progress by adults deemed dubious? Why? I don't see that happening, but maybe I'm not paying attention to the right things...
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#1568324 - 12/02/10 01:12 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Hmm, they appear once in a while, sometimes here and sometimes on adult beginners forums.

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#1568331 - 12/02/10 01:34 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Well, I'll venture a guess that some "progress" looks like only progress in finger speed, without much evidence of there being any brains behind it, or any of the sensitivity you talked about. But I criticize that problem in children as well.

One of the signs of good learning is being able to apply that learning to new situations. If I learn to play my best piece "sensitively", but when I learn new pieces I'm about as sensitive as a robot, have I really learned anything yet?
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#1568335 - 12/02/10 01:42 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: Rui725

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?



Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.

Quote:


Also, is this "sensitivity" to the language of music an innate trait, regardless of how old you are?


I think having high degree of sensitivity is innate (or else it is learned so early as to appear that way). Obviously, people can still learn stuff at any age, including how to be more sensitive to classical music than they already are, but it seems such sensitivity would have to be perceived as differently than if the person had, to the best of their knowledge, always felt such sensitivity.

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#1568367 - 12/02/10 02:56 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.

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#1568376 - 12/02/10 03:23 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.

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#1568382 - 12/02/10 03:36 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.



I see now you are hard wired.

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#1568385 - 12/02/10 03:45 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
I heard this great comment from a pianist once:

"One plays the piano with the mind and not the fingers."

He was addressing a question regarding increasing playing speed. I think anyone that applies this concept can increase his/her learning progress.

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#1568391 - 12/02/10 03:54 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed

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#1568393 - 12/02/10 04:04 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: Rui725
I heard this great comment from a pianist once:

"One plays the piano with the mind and not the fingers."

He was addressing a question regarding increasing playing speed. I think anyone that applies this concept can increase his/her learning progress.


A lot of this mind/body stuff isn't really news, even for us backward classical pianist types who are over the age of fifty. However, I have yet to meet the 300-year-old pianist who stopped the effects of time with those methods.

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#1568408 - 12/02/10 04:59 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed

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#1568419 - 12/02/10 05:26 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed
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#1568426 - 12/02/10 05:40 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Dave Horne]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:18 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed

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#1568437 - 12/02/10 06:14 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:18 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed
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#1568457 - 12/02/10 07:53 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19366
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Hmm, they appear once in a while, sometimes here and sometimes on adult beginners forums.
I think that in the catgory of appearing "once in a while" you can find just about any kind of statement.

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#1568470 - 12/02/10 08:36 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
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Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
talented is talented - doesn't matter if it's child or adult.
Talent may be discovered at any age.

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#1568479 - 12/02/10 08:49 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13792
Loc: Iowa City, IA
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1568484 - 12/02/10 09:02 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.


all depends, what do you think about this?

Quote:
The other way to look at precocity is of course to work backward — to look at adult geniuses and see what they were like as kids. A number of studies have taken this approach, Gladwell said, and they find a similar pattern. A study of 200 highly accomplished adults found that just 34 percent had been considered in any way precocious as children. He also read a long list of historical geniuses who had been notably undistinguished as children — a list including Copernicus, Rembrandt, Bach, Newton, Beethoven, Kant, and Leonardo Da Vinci (“that famous code-maker”). “None of [them] would have made it into Hunter College,” Gladwell observed.

To be a prodigy in music, for example, is to be a mimic, to reproduce what you hear from grown-up musicians. Yet only rarely, according to Gladwell, do child musical prodigies manage to make the necessary transition from mimicry to creating a style of their own. The “prodigy midlife crisis,” as it has been called, proves fatal to all but a handful would-be Mozarts. “Precociousness, in other words, is not necessarily or always a prelude to adult achievement. Sometimes it’s just its own little discrete state.”



http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026

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#1568640 - 12/02/10 01:48 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
itsfreakingmeout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 706
Loc: Manassas, Virginia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.



I disagree...it IS all in your head. Learning something new takes time and dedication, but its no different for children than it is adults. Both have to practice very hard and be determined. Its ultimately up to you how well you do.
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#1568646 - 12/02/10 01:53 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!
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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1568676 - 12/02/10 02:31 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13792
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I think Gladwell makes a lot of sense.

But I think it's worth noting that none of the people he mentions developed a physical skill at a late age. Beethoven definitely had early training at the piano, and judging by what we know of his father and Neefe, it was fairly intense.

My main doubts about adult learning are in the realm of technique. If we take a Gladwellesque looking-backwards approach, we might ask ourselves this question:

"How did adults who developed a high level of physical skill attain that skill?"

The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.


all depends, what do you think about this?

Quote:
The other way to look at precocity is of course to work backward — to look at adult geniuses and see what they were like as kids. A number of studies have taken this approach, Gladwell said, and they find a similar pattern. A study of 200 highly accomplished adults found that just 34 percent had been considered in any way precocious as children. He also read a long list of historical geniuses who had been notably undistinguished as children — a list including Copernicus, Rembrandt, Bach, Newton, Beethoven, Kant, and Leonardo Da Vinci (“that famous code-maker”). “None of [them] would have made it into Hunter College,” Gladwell observed.

To be a prodigy in music, for example, is to be a mimic, to reproduce what you hear from grown-up musicians. Yet only rarely, according to Gladwell, do child musical prodigies manage to make the necessary transition from mimicry to creating a style of their own. The “prodigy midlife crisis,” as it has been called, proves fatal to all but a handful would-be Mozarts. “Precociousness, in other words, is not necessarily or always a prelude to adult achievement. Sometimes it’s just its own little discrete state.”



http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1568677 - 12/02/10 02:31 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!

You're the only one who ever mentions that, and usually nobody replies because we don't know what you're talking about.
Originally Posted By: Rui725
I have a question (or two) that was sparked by another thread under "Is this child really good (Chopin Waltz in A-Flat major)".

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?

Because usually these people never post their playing, and their playing is at a disappointing standard when they do. I would love to see a 35 year old playing with the same sort of technical facility as some of the child prodigies after a short time playing, especially if he or she has no previous musical background. We have to also remember that very few (probably less than 0.1%) of children who start piano make prodigious progress, but a greater number of children start piano than adults. That makes it statistically more likely for us to know of child prodigies than adult prodigies, even if the proportions were equal. Since most of us have personally encountered child prodigies and not adult ones, we are more likely to question the validity of the latter.

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#1568690 - 12/02/10 02:44 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Frozenicicles]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!

You're the only one who ever mentions that, and usually nobody replies because we don't know what you're talking about.
No, it's in a book somewhere - The Talent Code? A bogus claim about upping your myelin quotient.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1568697 - 12/02/10 02:53 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
This waltz is not a good measure of a pianist. The girl in the video plays very well, but the notes fall well enough under the fingers in this piece so that anyone can play it with good coaching.

Compare this "salon piece" with something much more difficult, like a Chopin etude or ballade, where the notes don't fall well under the fingers, and in fact threaten to rip your fingers out of their sockets. Difficult concert pianist-level pieces like this separate the really talented players from the masses. Conservatory-bound players can play pieces like this, ordinary players can't.


Edited by Gyro (12/03/10 03:16 PM)

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#1568774 - 12/02/10 04:52 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
"How did adults who developed a high level of physical skill attain that skill?"

The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?


it's true it's hard to find examples but I think simply because when we older we usually don't have time for training anything long enough. Remember when we're kids
1 week was a really long time, now 1 year seems to pass very quickly.
I think especially with piano playing when physically there is not much to practice
IMO piano playing comes from the head 93% and rest are hands.

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#1568830 - 12/02/10 06:28 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!


Kids are hard-wired to learn (and grow) in a way that adults aren't. When I say that, I am not talking about the results of learning, but about having the built-in programming that causes it to happen in the first place.

I can see it was a mistake to use such an ambiguous word as "hard-wired" without qualification. Will I ever learn not to do that?

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#1568926 - 12/02/10 08:53 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 184
Loc: El Macero, CA, USA
Can you be more specific about which of the 27 Chopin Etudes you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

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#1568939 - 12/02/10 09:08 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: pianoist d'amore]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Can you be more specific about which of the 27 Chopin Etudes you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

I think he means all of them. There are hardly any people who started playing piano at 30 and play all the etudes in their 50's; there are many people who started playing piano at 5-7 and play all the etudes in their 20's.

-J
_________________________
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#1568969 - 12/02/10 10:06 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: beet31425]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
I believe that true musical sensitivity and artistry is innate and comes from deep inside. Take Aimi Kobayashi for example. Even at age three, she was displaying a sense of musicality that is beyond (youtube Aimi Kobayashi age 3 and see what you get) and below I have posted a video of her playing Chopin's Impromptu no. 1 at age 10 (you tell me that her musical sensitivity isn't innate).

Also, I believe that age truly doesn't matter with musical talent. It's all about dedication. 8-year-olds are able to play piano all day if they want because they don't have to go to a job, pay bills, shop, etc... whereas late starting adults have less time for practicing than children and are generally far more pre-occupied with life's issues than your beginning 6-year-old piano student who will regard the piano probably as a toy and have fun with it (whether that turns into a huge gift or not is up to them). However, if you are (for example) thirty and want to take up the piano and seriously practice 10-12 hours a day, who knows you could be playing Chopin 27 etudes before too long.

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