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#1568996 - 12/02/10 10:57 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I believe that true musical sensitivity and artistry is innate and comes from deep inside. Take Aimi Kobayashi for example. Even at age three, she was displaying a sense of musicality that is beyond (youtube Aimi Kobayashi age 3 and see what you get) and below I have posted a video of her playing Chopin's Impromptu no. 1 at age 10 (you tell me that her musical sensitivity isn't innate).

Also, I believe that age truly doesn't matter with musical talent. It's all about dedication. 8-year-olds are able to play piano all day if they want because they don't have to go to a job, pay bills, shop, etc... whereas late starting adults have less time for practicing than children and are generally far more pre-occupied with life's issues than your beginning 6-year-old piano student who will regard the piano probably as a toy and have fun with it (whether that turns into a huge gift or not is up to them). However, if you are (for example) thirty and want to take up the piano and seriously practice 10-12 hours a day, who knows you could be playing Chopin 27 etudes before too long.


But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.

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#1569004 - 12/02/10 11:18 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13817
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1569075 - 12/03/10 02:39 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
...

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#1569091 - 12/03/10 03:11 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)


again who would be so "stupid" as adult to practice 10-12 hours a day and "wasting" his life
at piano? Only kids and teens can afford this, and that's the all secret whole thing.

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#1569095 - 12/03/10 03:22 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)


again who would be so "stupid" as adult to practice 10-12 hours a day and "wasting" his life
at piano? Only kids and teens can afford this, and that's the all secret whole thing.


I don't understand your meaning of this. Doesn't seem to add to the discussion, but rather, as another has nicely placed, stifle it.

By the way, never knew doing something you enjoy is stupid and a waste of life.

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#1569097 - 12/03/10 03:36 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Rui725I
don't understand your meaning of this. Doesn't seem to add to the discussion, but rather, as another has nicely placed, stifle it.

By the way, never knew doing something you enjoy is stupid and a waste of life.


I see you don't understand, have you noticed the quotes? What I meant is commitment and free time. When I was a kid I've been practicing sometimes 8 hours per day, as as adult
I don't see a point to that unless my goal is to become concert pianist and make living by playing. Many kids are "forced" more or less to practice, then they got used to and they continue. Adults have too many things to take care of to practice long enough to become adult prodigy, but it's possible.

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#1569098 - 12/03/10 03:40 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
I see, thanks for the clarification!

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#1569103 - 12/03/10 04:11 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)


again who would be so "stupid" as adult to practice 10-12 hours a day and "wasting" his life
at piano? Only kids and teens can afford this, and that's the all secret whole thing.


It would be no waste of time. If music/playing is something you love then it's never a waste of time even if your goal ISN'T the stage. The all secret whole thing..haha..wtf?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1569174 - 12/03/10 08:34 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13817
Loc: Iowa City, IA
There's actually quite a bit of research that says practicing an instrument (exercising the mind and body) can help prevent or delay the onset of things like arthritis and Alzheimer's.

Staying mentally and physically active is a very important part of being healthy as one ages.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1569189 - 12/03/10 09:23 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
[quote=Rui725]
If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...


Um, i'm surprised nobody's mentioned this but look at Richter (27), Paderweski (22), etc... Those people skipped the child prodigy part and went straight to virtuoso in less than a year.

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#1569194 - 12/03/10 09:39 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
[quote=Rui725]
If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...


Um, i'm surprised nobody's mentioned this but look at Richter (27), Paderweski (22), etc... Those people skipped the child prodigy part and went straight to virtuoso in less than a year.


good point! wiki states:

Quote:
Initially he took piano lessons with a private tutor. At the age of 12, in 1872, he went to Warsaw and was admitted to the Warsaw Conservatorium. After graduating in 1878, he was asked to become a tutor of piano classes at his alma mater, which he accepted. ...Paderewski decided to devote himself to music, and in 1881 he went to Berlin to study music composition with Friedrich Kiel[1] and Heinrich Urban.


so it's true he devoted himself to music quite late althought he had good base music education.

Richer story is interesting too:

Quote:
In early 1920s Richter became interested in music (as well as other artforms, such as cinema, literature, and theatre) and started studying piano. Unusually, he was largely self-taught. His father only gave him a basic education in music, and so did one of his father's pupils, a Czech harpist.[3]

Even at an early age, Richter was an excellent sight-reader, and regularly practiced with local opera and ballet companies. He developed a lifelong passion for opera, vocal and chamber music that found its full expression in the festivals he established in Grange de Meslay, France, and in Moscow, at the Pushkin Museum. At age 15, he started to work at the Odessa Opera where he accompanied the rehearsals.[4]

Early career
On March 19, 1934, Richter gave his first recital, at the Engineers' Club of Odessa; but he did not formally start studying piano until three years later, when he decided to seek Heinrich Neuhaus, a famous pianist and piano teacher, at the Moscow Conservatory

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#1569222 - 12/03/10 10:44 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13817
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Um...neither Richter nor Paderewski were late starters. They weren't concertizing at 10, but they were definitely learning.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1569236 - 12/03/10 11:09 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Um...neither Richter nor Paderewski were late starters. They weren't concertizing at 10, but they were definitely learning.


Both started playing young, but developed, or rather started taking music seriously in there 20's. As Kreisler mentioned, they were not late starters.

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#1569241 - 12/03/10 11:12 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Um...neither Richter nor Paderewski were late starters. They weren't concertizing at 10, but they were definitely learning.


Both started playing young, but developed, or rather started taking music seriously in there 20's. As Kreisler mentioned, they were not late starters.


many kids took piano or music lessons early at school.
In my country we had regular music class, same as math etc
yet seldom this had any impact on cereer choice.

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#1569272 - 12/03/10 11:53 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
I am an adult (50+) re-learner, having taken lessons for a number of years as a kid. My teacher has many adult students who are later starters. These are doctors, university professors, etc....He tells me that they do struggle, and that having taken lessons early in life, that I am way ahead.

As a youth, I really never made it past intermediate level pieces, and even though he has totally changed the way I play, the foundation of my learning has helped tremendously, and I can now play much of the advanced literature, and sight read fairly well.

Unfortunately, it is a lot more difficult for the "mature" beginner to make the kind of progress that the young do. It is just part of the physical aspect of our brains and bodies.


Secondly practice and disipline have been touched on. The disipline that comes from mama and teacher is probably stronger than the self disipline of an adult. Eg:

No dinner until you have practiced for a half hour
No TV until you practice
No you are not ready for this piece
You must learn your scales, arps, chords, inversions, theory in a logical and orderly fashion.
You will play in the upcoming recital
You may not move onto the next piece until this one is mastered.
Play this from memory for next time

Etc....

Also +1 to Kreisler about staying physically and mentally active. I like that quote: "You don't stop playing because you become old, you become old because you stop playing"
_________________________
Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30

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#1569287 - 12/03/10 12:22 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: beet31425]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 184
Loc: El Macero, CA, USA
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.

However, I thought we are talking about adult beginners' potential to become virtuoso. And I seriously doubt that virtuoso is defined by the ability to play ALL of Chopin's etudes. We have to be a little more reasonable here. If we see someone who starts piano at 30 and plays, say, randomly picked 10 pieces of Chopin etudes by age 40 at the same high standard, we should BELIEVE that this adult has no less talent than someone who started at 5 and is being able to play all of them.

Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Can you be more specific about which of the 27 Chopin Etudes you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

I think he means all of them. There are hardly any people who started playing piano at 30 and play all the etudes in their 50's; there are many people who started playing piano at 5-7 and play all the etudes in their 20's.

-J


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#1569301 - 12/03/10 12:43 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Stanza
The disipline that comes from mama and teacher is probably stronger than the self disipline of an adult. Eg:

No dinner until you have practiced for a half hour
No TV until you practice
No you are not ready for this piece
You must learn your scales, arps, chords, inversions, theory in a logical and orderly fashion.
You will play in the upcoming recital
You may not move onto the next piece until this one is mastered.
Play this from memory for next time

Etc....

Hey, where do I find this parent? I want to teach their kids!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1569314 - 12/03/10 01:01 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: pianoist d'amore]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.


don't believe all studies, I read compeletely oposite conclusions in studies on many topics. From experience and talk with others I can tell this is not true. Use it or lose it
applies to brain, memory, muscles, hearing, sight etc.

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#1569344 - 12/03/10 01:45 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 184
Loc: El Macero, CA, USA
I agree. Still, I don't think one can deny the fact that we all age (and yes, I'm aware that some study shows that bio-markers can be reversible). The point I was trying to make is that "talent" got to be defined in relative terms, esp. after we realize the biological/physical, mental, and, as previous posts have said, social limitations that imposed on both children and adults. Once properly defined, "talent" WILL show with focused and persevere practice regardless of whether the person starts as a child or an adult.

Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.


don't believe all studies, I read compeletely oposite conclusions in studies on many topics. From experience and talk with others I can tell this is not true. Use it or lose it
applies to brain, memory, muscles, hearing, sight etc.

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#1569532 - 12/03/10 06:43 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: pianoist d'amore]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8026
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.


The premises are all wrong... It doesn't take that long for an extremely talented kid to learn all the Chopin etudes. And playing piano is not directly dependent on hearing and memory in the sense your statement implies, either (not that everybody experienced those losses equally, anyway).

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#1569542 - 12/03/10 07:00 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

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#1569585 - 12/03/10 08:29 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Congratulations chobeethaninovscriaschuclemebachlisztzart grin
That's a great story. Way to go! Make sure you tell us about your concerts when they happen.

I like your signature line by the way, especially beethoven's
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1569612 - 12/03/10 10:06 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8026
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.


It should be obvious that if people who love piano and music could do that sort of thing at retirement age, when they finally have the "free" time for it, they would. In droves. But they don't. Hmmm....

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#1569691 - 12/04/10 12:33 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.


It should be obvious that if people who love piano and music could do that sort of thing at retirement age, when they finally have the "free" time for it, they would. In droves. But they don't. Hmmm....


Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not. People burn out at around 65-70 from a lifetime of hardwork, and in some cases even earlier.

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#1569745 - 12/04/10 03:16 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
only because retirement in our society starts too early and basically means preparing for death and also because the myths you can learn only when you're young which is BS.

Look at Rita Levi-Montalcini, at 100 years old she is still working actively in her institue.

Quote:
She was awarded the 1986 Nobel Prize for Medicine jointly with an American, Stanley Cohen, for her research into NGF: the proteins and amino-acids which enable the cells of the nervous system to grow and take on specialised tasks. Despite her age, Dr Levi-Montalcini, a neurologist and development biologist, still works every day at the European Brain Research Institute, which she founded in Rome.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-this-the-secret-of-eternal-life-1674005.html

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#1569749 - 12/04/10 03:19 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
I don't believe it's too early. Working full-time for the past 3 and 1/2 years, and I already feel a toll. I can't imagine what it would feel like for another 30+ years of this. Anyway, this is way off topic.

Anyways, life burns you out, such that the later you start the anything, the harder it becomes to pick it up.


Edited by Rui725 (12/04/10 03:26 AM)

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#1569755 - 12/04/10 03:48 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Rui725
I don't believe it's too early. Working full-time for the past 3 and 1/2 years, and I already feel a toll. I can't imagine what it would feel like for another 30+ years of this. Anyway, this is way off topic.


yes but mostly because we work at work we don't like or sometimes even hate,
we eat what we shouldn't, we don't exercise etc etc so no wonder by the time you 60 you are all sick and exhausted.

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#1569757 - 12/04/10 04:00 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8026
Originally Posted By: Rui725

Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not.


So far, nobody has been able to give an example, and I would expect for there to be at least a few if it were really possible.

After all, grown people make drastic career changes and succeed in new fields all the time - so why are there not similar examples of people switching to classical performance, if it is possible?

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#1569907 - 12/04/10 10:54 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11846
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Rui725

Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not. People burn out at around 65-70 from a lifetime of hardwork, and in some cases even earlier.

This statement is only mildly acceptable if you yourself are around 65 - 70 years old or older, and have your own experience and that of friends to draw on. But the very fact that you are writing this suggests that you are probably young - maybe the age that you think it's still possible.

Yes, I've seen burned out people. They look and act old. Some were in their twenties - age had nothing to do with it. Attitude, maybe what they were taught or how they had been treated by influential people in their lives, or whatever came into play. Age didn't.

When part of society constantly creates these negative images for us to "aim" toward, people become cowed and timid, because they buy into those images. Please do not play that role on this site. In essence you are talking to men and women who are striving toward goals in music, and telling part of that population that they have a serious flaw they cannot overcome and that will get worse. You have stated a myth, and that myth can be debilitating to anyone that listens to it.

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#1569910 - 12/04/10 10:57 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keystring]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
[quote=keystringYes, I've seen burned out people. They look and act old. Some were in their twenties - age had nothing to do with it. Attitude, maybe what they were taught or how they had been treated by influential people in their lives, or whatever came into play. Age didn't.

When part of society constantly creates these negative images for us to "aim" toward, people become cowed and timid, because they buy into those images. Please do not play that role on this site. In essence you are talking to men and women who are striving toward goals in music, and telling part of that population that they have a serious flaw they cannot overcome and that will get worse. You have stated a myth, and that myth can be debilitating to anyone that listens to it. [/quote]

thumb bingo, was his name...

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