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#1570000 - 12/04/10 12:34 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
lean to tail Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 37
Loc: Triop
Is 21 a late starter?

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#1570002 - 12/04/10 12:34 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keystring]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Rui725

Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not. People burn out at around 65-70 from a lifetime of hardwork, and in some cases even earlier.

This statement is only mildly acceptable if you yourself are around 65 - 70 years old or older, and have your own experience and that of friends to draw on. But the very fact that you are writing this suggests that you are probably young - maybe the age that you think it's still possible.

Yes, I've seen burned out people. They look and act old. Some were in their twenties - age had nothing to do with it. Attitude, maybe what they were taught or how they had been treated by influential people in their lives, or whatever came into play. Age didn't.

When part of society constantly creates these negative images for us to "aim" toward, people become cowed and timid, because they buy into those images. Please do not play that role on this site. In essence you are talking to men and women who are striving toward goals in music, and telling part of that population that they have a serious flaw they cannot overcome and that will get worse. You have stated a myth, and that myth can be debilitating to anyone that listens to it.


To place matters correct, let me apologize if I have shifted anyone's musical goals. I have my own musical goals as well, and I sincerely hope I did not sway anyone from there's from my petty post.

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#1570017 - 12/04/10 01:01 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
What do you mean by advanced level? Piano is a lot like sports. Most people can get to a hobbyist level, but it takes special training from a young age to get to an Olympics level. I've heard of a few people who started after age 15 but before age 20 who got to a very advanced level, so maybe 21 isn't stretching it too much. You up your chances by finding a teacher who can pick pieces and technical exercises that would best fit your stage of development so that you progress quickly with the foundations well in place. A 21 year old doesn't have as much time to play around with as a 10 year old if they ever want to be able to adequately play the toughest pieces in the piano literature. Since chances of a 21 year old beginner eventually doing piano professionally are slim (unless they really want to teach), I wouldn't recommend that they pursue this route since it would take a lot of time away from more realistic endeavours.

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#1570046 - 12/04/10 01:35 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Frozenicicles]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
What do you mean by advanced level? Piano is a lot like sports. Most people can get to a hobbyist level, but it takes special training from a young age to get to an Olympics level. I've heard of a few people who started after age 15 but before age 20 who got to a very advanced level, so maybe 21 isn't stretching it too much. You up your chances by finding a teacher who can pick pieces and technical exercises that would best fit your stage of development so that you progress quickly with the foundations well in place. A 21 year old doesn't have as much time to play around with as a 10 year old if they ever want to be able to adequately play the toughest pieces in the piano literature. Since chances of a 21 year old beginner eventually doing piano professionally are slim (unless they really want to teach), I wouldn't recommend that they pursue this route since it would take a lot of time away from more realistic endeavours.


In response, I believe wholeheartedly that the "other" endeavors in life are over rated, as I've personally walked many paths and have yet lived up to anything, but this is purely subjective. Wasting time is also subjective, what is a waste of time differs from one to another.

I watched a peculiar, but rather realistic film a few hours ago starring Leonardo DiCarprio and Kate Winslet called Revolutionary Road. For those that have not watched it, it's basically about how society ties down a young couple into leading a life that they thought was what they wanted and when the opportunity to change their life presents itself, they don't take it.



Edited by Rui725 (12/04/10 01:35 PM)

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#1570191 - 12/04/10 04:43 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!

You're the only one who ever mentions that, and usually nobody replies because we don't know what you're talking about.
No, it's in a book somewhere - The Talent Code? A bogus claim about upping your myelin quotient.


Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist. Being an adult restarter, I became fascinated with brain science and how certain activities, like learning a sport or musical instrument are best done during childhood.

Despite what the science says, I do believe there ARE adult prodigies out there, and quite a few on the ABF who rapidly advance to level 4 and up in less than a year.


http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/articles/piano-playing-a-public-health-concept-764/

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#1570195 - 12/04/10 04:55 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: CebuKid]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3754
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist...

And fwiw (possibly not much), Fredrik Ullen isn't just any pianist; he's a seriously awesome pianist in the process of recording all 100 of Sorabji's Transcendental Etudes (sampling easily findable on youtube). That a mere mortal attempts to wrestle with such music is one thing; that he succeeds so beautifully is another; that he has a full-time job as a neuroscientist on the side defies belief....

-J

_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#1570223 - 12/04/10 05:51 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1483
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Edited by RonaldSteinway (12/04/10 05:56 PM)

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#1570228 - 12/04/10 05:58 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: lean to tail]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1483
Originally Posted By: lean to tail
Is 21 a late starter?


Why do you need to worry about age? You cannot get younger anyway. Just start practicing and working really hard to reach your natural potential. Worrying about too late or not will not help. Find a good teacher who can unlock your potential.

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#1570230 - 12/04/10 06:02 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: Stanza
I am an adult (50+) re-learner, having taken lessons for a number of years as a kid. My teacher has many adult students who are later starters. These are doctors, university professors, etc....He tells me that they do struggle, and that having taken lessons early in life, that I am way ahead.

As a youth, I really never made it past intermediate level pieces, and even though he has totally changed the way I play, the foundation of my learning has helped tremendously, and I can now play much of the advanced literature, and sight read fairly well.




And you are living proof of Ullen's theories. I am a re-starter too - started again after a quarter century. I forgot the bass cleff and didn't really even know where I "left off" (I found out later when I found a level 4 John Thompson book in the bench of my childhood piano). But...when restarting, I found I didn't have to do an alfred's method book and start from scratch... and finger dexterity and hand independence were still there. I've also observed that adults who start piano from scratch, but have a prior childhood musical background in something else, are also more advanced and learn quicker.

Here's an excerpt from that same article:

Ullén hopes to continue by studying a group of pianists who practiced as children but then stopped playing. His objective is to investigate whether the effects on the pyramidal pathways are lifelong effects, or whether they require perseverant lifelong practicing to be maintained.

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#1570240 - 12/04/10 06:18 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: lean to tail]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1344
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: lean to tail
Is 21 a late starter?

absolutely not.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1570373 - 12/04/10 10:36 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: chrisbell]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
No, but 35 is.

Top
#1570398 - 12/05/10 12:32 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: RonaldSteinway]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.

Top
#1570413 - 12/05/10 01:25 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7793
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.

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#1570420 - 12/05/10 02:16 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: wr

Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.
I agree, I think it's a failure to search hard.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570421 - 12/05/10 02:21 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: CebuKid]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist.
I have corresponded with Fredrik Ullen:
Quote:
The main mechanisms behind motor learning are surely reorganizations
of the connections between nerve cells, including formation of new connections, which will change the behavior
of the neuronal networks. That's the general picture from a vast body
of human and animal studies on learning. So there is no evidence at all that myelination would be *directly* involved
in the process of learning e.g. a new piece of music, although of course IF myelination is altered it would have consequences for processing in those neural regions (e.g. the general degradation of motor functions in multiple sclerosis where myelin is damaged). For the white matter plasticity we have studied in pianists boosted myelination is only a working hypothesis, and we are at the moment excited about studying this phenomenon and its behavioral consequences further!
Quote:

No I think the main explanation is automatisation. In the beginning,
playing the piece requires a lot of conscious control; in a brain scanner you would see lot of activity in "higher" brain areas of the motor system in the frontal lobe: areas that are involved in conscious attention and planning of movement. With extended
practice you will develop much more efficient motor representations of the piece, which can be executed without much conscious effort, and activity in
higher brain areas will be consequently be less. Again, I don't think alterations of myelination are important for these processes which essentially reflect reorganizations in neuronal networks in the brain's motor system.

It appears, though, that childhood music training stimulates myelination in pathways involved in music performance and this may very well have beneficial
effects for the function of the nervous system, but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment, which we proposed on the basis of findings in pianists. We don't know the functional
consequences of this type of changes.


Also:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
here's one site that explains about myelin and his work. The fascinating article is quite clear that myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/200123-White-Matter


That's all from this thread http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1406455/1.html which OT'd into The Talent Code.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570457 - 12/05/10 04:34 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: lean to tail]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: lean to tail
Is 21 a late starter?


It depends on what one is wanting to do.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1570481 - 12/05/10 06:01 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: stores]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
She is hundred or something and after a 1 year of lessons plyas quite good I'd say...


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#1570482 - 12/05/10 06:03 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
"This octogenarian has played the piano for over 80 years. She is playing this patriotic medley for her church. Her CD recorded 4-5 years ago sold out."

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#1570564 - 12/05/10 10:25 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.


This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc. So don't tell anyone they can't achieve a certain level because they are old/female/male/handicappped/a caveman...

No one is saying you can't try to be the best you can be, and enjoy the fruits of your labors, whatever they are, but just don't be delusional.


Edited by Stanza (12/05/10 10:33 AM)
_________________________
Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30

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#1570567 - 12/05/10 10:30 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.


This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc.


and all because democracy... smokin

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#1570570 - 12/05/10 10:45 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.


This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc.


and all because democracy... smokin


Huh?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1570573 - 12/05/10 10:48 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Stanza
This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education.
If only it were that simple. I work with plenty of children easily classed as neglected compared to their cohort. If a parent doesn't support a child's education can you call it a good education?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570577 - 12/05/10 10:51 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1483
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....

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#1570585 - 12/05/10 11:01 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: RonaldSteinway]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....


What the hell does that mean?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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#1570589 - 12/05/10 11:08 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist.
I have corresponded with Fredrik Ullen:
Quote:
The main mechanisms behind motor learning are surely reorganizations
of the connections between nerve cells, including formation of new connections, which will change the behavior
of the neuronal networks. That's the general picture from a vast body
of human and animal studies on learning. So there is no evidence at all that myelination would be *directly* involved
in the process of learning e.g. a new piece of music, although of course IF myelination is altered it would have consequences for processing in those neural regions (e.g. the general degradation of motor functions in multiple sclerosis where myelin is damaged). For the white matter plasticity we have studied in pianists boosted myelination is only a working hypothesis, and we are at the moment excited about studying this phenomenon and its behavioral consequences further!
Quote:

No I think the main explanation is automatisation. In the beginning,
playing the piece requires a lot of conscious control; in a brain scanner you would see lot of activity in "higher" brain areas of the motor system in the frontal lobe: areas that are involved in conscious attention and planning of movement. With extended
practice you will develop much more efficient motor representations of the piece, which can be executed without much conscious effort, and activity in
higher brain areas will be consequently be less. Again, I don't think alterations of myelination are important for these processes which essentially reflect reorganizations in neuronal networks in the brain's motor system.

It appears, though, that childhood music training stimulates myelination in pathways involved in music performance and this may very well have beneficial
effects for the function of the nervous system, but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment, which we proposed on the basis of findings in pianists. We don't know the functional
consequences of this type of changes.


Also:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
here's one site that explains about myelin and his work. The fascinating article is quite clear that myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/200123-White-Matter


That's all from this thread http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1406455/1.html which OT'd into The Talent Code.


Thanks for the reposts. Interesting excerpt from this:

"myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.

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#1570658 - 12/05/10 01:00 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: stores]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1483
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....


What the hell does that mean?


HAHAHAHAAH.....what did the mom smoke to produce such a delusional kid?


Edited by RonaldSteinway (12/05/10 01:01 PM)

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#1570662 - 12/05/10 01:06 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: CebuKid]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
"myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.


I hope I haven't confused you. The above is by me (I think), the first two quote boxes are Ullen. Hold on I'm wrong! It's just the first sentence (I think).

And Jeez, ain't it powerful stuff!


Edited by keyboardklutz (12/05/10 01:14 PM)
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570692 - 12/05/10 02:01 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
A few notable words from the Ullen text:

only a working hypothesis

but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment

We don't know the functional consequences

Top
#1570704 - 12/05/10 02:25 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Ullen is the cautious scientist, unlike the usual 'popular science' writers who get media space. Basically he's saying the jury's out on the role of myelin in learning.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1570719 - 12/05/10 02:40 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Concerning the window of opportunity quoted by CebuKid:

"This finding suggests" , the keyword being "suggests" and not "proves" or "Demonstrates".

Also, he doesn't show whether it is important if one can speak a foreign language without an accent .

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