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#1568284 - 12/01/10 11:37 PM Talented Child vs. Talented Adult
Rui725 Offline
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Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
I have a question (or two) that was sparked by another thread under "Is this child really good (Chopin Waltz in A-Flat major)".

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?

Also, is this "sensitivity" to the language of music an innate trait, regardless of how old you are?


Edited by Rui725 (12/01/10 11:41 PM)

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#1568298 - 12/02/10 12:02 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
david_a Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
I think that very much of the sensitivity can be (and is) learned. I think people who listen to well-played (&/or well-sung) music, of any genre, can often pick up on the "sensitivity models" demonstrated by good musicians.

Fast progress by adults deemed dubious? Why? I don't see that happening, but maybe I'm not paying attention to the right things...
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#1568324 - 12/02/10 01:12 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Rui725 Offline
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Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Hmm, they appear once in a while, sometimes here and sometimes on adult beginners forums.

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#1568331 - 12/02/10 01:34 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
david_a Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Well, I'll venture a guess that some "progress" looks like only progress in finger speed, without much evidence of there being any brains behind it, or any of the sensitivity you talked about. But I criticize that problem in children as well.

One of the signs of good learning is being able to apply that learning to new situations. If I learn to play my best piece "sensitively", but when I learn new pieces I'm about as sensitive as a robot, have I really learned anything yet?
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#1568335 - 12/02/10 01:42 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7763
Originally Posted By: Rui725

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?



Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.

Quote:


Also, is this "sensitivity" to the language of music an innate trait, regardless of how old you are?


I think having high degree of sensitivity is innate (or else it is learned so early as to appear that way). Obviously, people can still learn stuff at any age, including how to be more sensitive to classical music than they already are, but it seems such sensitivity would have to be perceived as differently than if the person had, to the best of their knowledge, always felt such sensitivity.

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#1568367 - 12/02/10 02:56 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.

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#1568376 - 12/02/10 03:23 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7763
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.

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#1568382 - 12/02/10 03:36 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.



I see now you are hard wired.

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#1568385 - 12/02/10 03:45 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
I heard this great comment from a pianist once:

"One plays the piano with the mind and not the fingers."

He was addressing a question regarding increasing playing speed. I think anyone that applies this concept can increase his/her learning progress.

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#1568391 - 12/02/10 03:54 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7763
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed

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#1568393 - 12/02/10 04:04 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7763
Originally Posted By: Rui725
I heard this great comment from a pianist once:

"One plays the piano with the mind and not the fingers."

He was addressing a question regarding increasing playing speed. I think anyone that applies this concept can increase his/her learning progress.


A lot of this mind/body stuff isn't really news, even for us backward classical pianist types who are over the age of fifty. However, I have yet to meet the 300-year-old pianist who stopped the effects of time with those methods.

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#1568408 - 12/02/10 04:59 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed

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#1568419 - 12/02/10 05:26 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed
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#1568426 - 12/02/10 05:40 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Dave Horne]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:18 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed

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#1568437 - 12/02/10 06:14 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
...


Edited by Kreisler (12/02/10 08:18 AM)
Edit Reason: bickering removed
_________________________
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#1568457 - 12/02/10 07:53 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Hmm, they appear once in a while, sometimes here and sometimes on adult beginners forums.
I think that in the catgory of appearing "once in a while" you can find just about any kind of statement.

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#1568470 - 12/02/10 08:36 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
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Registered: 11/30/10
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talented is talented - doesn't matter if it's child or adult.
Talent may be discovered at any age.

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#1568479 - 12/02/10 08:49 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.
_________________________
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#1568484 - 12/02/10 09:02 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
delirious Offline
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Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.


all depends, what do you think about this?

Quote:
The other way to look at precocity is of course to work backward — to look at adult geniuses and see what they were like as kids. A number of studies have taken this approach, Gladwell said, and they find a similar pattern. A study of 200 highly accomplished adults found that just 34 percent had been considered in any way precocious as children. He also read a long list of historical geniuses who had been notably undistinguished as children — a list including Copernicus, Rembrandt, Bach, Newton, Beethoven, Kant, and Leonardo Da Vinci (“that famous code-maker”). “None of [them] would have made it into Hunter College,” Gladwell observed.

To be a prodigy in music, for example, is to be a mimic, to reproduce what you hear from grown-up musicians. Yet only rarely, according to Gladwell, do child musical prodigies manage to make the necessary transition from mimicry to creating a style of their own. The “prodigy midlife crisis,” as it has been called, proves fatal to all but a handful would-be Mozarts. “Precociousness, in other words, is not necessarily or always a prelude to adult achievement. Sometimes it’s just its own little discrete state.”



http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026

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#1568640 - 12/02/10 01:48 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
itsfreakingmeout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 706
Loc: Manassas, Virginia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.



I disagree...it IS all in your head. Learning something new takes time and dedication, but its no different for children than it is adults. Both have to practice very hard and be determined. Its ultimately up to you how well you do.
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#1568646 - 12/02/10 01:53 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!
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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1568676 - 12/02/10 02:31 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I think Gladwell makes a lot of sense.

But I think it's worth noting that none of the people he mentions developed a physical skill at a late age. Beethoven definitely had early training at the piano, and judging by what we know of his father and Neefe, it was fairly intense.

My main doubts about adult learning are in the realm of technique. If we take a Gladwellesque looking-backwards approach, we might ask ourselves this question:

"How did adults who developed a high level of physical skill attain that skill?"

The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.


all depends, what do you think about this?

Quote:
The other way to look at precocity is of course to work backward — to look at adult geniuses and see what they were like as kids. A number of studies have taken this approach, Gladwell said, and they find a similar pattern. A study of 200 highly accomplished adults found that just 34 percent had been considered in any way precocious as children. He also read a long list of historical geniuses who had been notably undistinguished as children — a list including Copernicus, Rembrandt, Bach, Newton, Beethoven, Kant, and Leonardo Da Vinci (“that famous code-maker”). “None of [them] would have made it into Hunter College,” Gladwell observed.

To be a prodigy in music, for example, is to be a mimic, to reproduce what you hear from grown-up musicians. Yet only rarely, according to Gladwell, do child musical prodigies manage to make the necessary transition from mimicry to creating a style of their own. The “prodigy midlife crisis,” as it has been called, proves fatal to all but a handful would-be Mozarts. “Precociousness, in other words, is not necessarily or always a prelude to adult achievement. Sometimes it’s just its own little discrete state.”



http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1568677 - 12/02/10 02:31 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!

You're the only one who ever mentions that, and usually nobody replies because we don't know what you're talking about.
Originally Posted By: Rui725
I have a question (or two) that was sparked by another thread under "Is this child really good (Chopin Waltz in A-Flat major)".

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?

Because usually these people never post their playing, and their playing is at a disappointing standard when they do. I would love to see a 35 year old playing with the same sort of technical facility as some of the child prodigies after a short time playing, especially if he or she has no previous musical background. We have to also remember that very few (probably less than 0.1%) of children who start piano make prodigious progress, but a greater number of children start piano than adults. That makes it statistically more likely for us to know of child prodigies than adult prodigies, even if the proportions were equal. Since most of us have personally encountered child prodigies and not adult ones, we are more likely to question the validity of the latter.

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#1568690 - 12/02/10 02:44 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Frozenicicles]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!

You're the only one who ever mentions that, and usually nobody replies because we don't know what you're talking about.
No, it's in a book somewhere - The Talent Code? A bogus claim about upping your myelin quotient.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1568697 - 12/02/10 02:53 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
This waltz is not a good measure of a pianist. The girl in the video plays very well, but the notes fall well enough under the fingers in this piece so that anyone can play it with good coaching.

Compare this "salon piece" with something much more difficult, like a Chopin etude or ballade, where the notes don't fall well under the fingers, and in fact threaten to rip your fingers out of their sockets. Difficult concert pianist-level pieces like this separate the really talented players from the masses. Conservatory-bound players can play pieces like this, ordinary players can't.


Edited by Gyro (12/03/10 03:16 PM)

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#1568774 - 12/02/10 04:52 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
"How did adults who developed a high level of physical skill attain that skill?"

The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?


it's true it's hard to find examples but I think simply because when we older we usually don't have time for training anything long enough. Remember when we're kids
1 week was a really long time, now 1 year seems to pass very quickly.
I think especially with piano playing when physically there is not much to practice
IMO piano playing comes from the head 93% and rest are hands.

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#1568830 - 12/02/10 06:28 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7763
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!


Kids are hard-wired to learn (and grow) in a way that adults aren't. When I say that, I am not talking about the results of learning, but about having the built-in programming that causes it to happen in the first place.

I can see it was a mistake to use such an ambiguous word as "hard-wired" without qualification. Will I ever learn not to do that?

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#1568926 - 12/02/10 08:53 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
pianoist d'amore Offline
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Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 184
Loc: El Macero, CA, USA
Can you be more specific about which of the 27 Chopin Etudes you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

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#1568939 - 12/02/10 09:08 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: pianoist d'amore]
beet31425 Offline
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Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3713
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Can you be more specific about which of the 27 Chopin Etudes you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

I think he means all of them. There are hardly any people who started playing piano at 30 and play all the etudes in their 50's; there are many people who started playing piano at 5-7 and play all the etudes in their 20's.

-J
_________________________
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#1568969 - 12/02/10 10:06 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: beet31425]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
I believe that true musical sensitivity and artistry is innate and comes from deep inside. Take Aimi Kobayashi for example. Even at age three, she was displaying a sense of musicality that is beyond (youtube Aimi Kobayashi age 3 and see what you get) and below I have posted a video of her playing Chopin's Impromptu no. 1 at age 10 (you tell me that her musical sensitivity isn't innate).

Also, I believe that age truly doesn't matter with musical talent. It's all about dedication. 8-year-olds are able to play piano all day if they want because they don't have to go to a job, pay bills, shop, etc... whereas late starting adults have less time for practicing than children and are generally far more pre-occupied with life's issues than your beginning 6-year-old piano student who will regard the piano probably as a toy and have fun with it (whether that turns into a huge gift or not is up to them). However, if you are (for example) thirty and want to take up the piano and seriously practice 10-12 hours a day, who knows you could be playing Chopin 27 etudes before too long.

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#1568996 - 12/02/10 10:57 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I believe that true musical sensitivity and artistry is innate and comes from deep inside. Take Aimi Kobayashi for example. Even at age three, she was displaying a sense of musicality that is beyond (youtube Aimi Kobayashi age 3 and see what you get) and below I have posted a video of her playing Chopin's Impromptu no. 1 at age 10 (you tell me that her musical sensitivity isn't innate).

Also, I believe that age truly doesn't matter with musical talent. It's all about dedication. 8-year-olds are able to play piano all day if they want because they don't have to go to a job, pay bills, shop, etc... whereas late starting adults have less time for practicing than children and are generally far more pre-occupied with life's issues than your beginning 6-year-old piano student who will regard the piano probably as a toy and have fun with it (whether that turns into a huge gift or not is up to them). However, if you are (for example) thirty and want to take up the piano and seriously practice 10-12 hours a day, who knows you could be playing Chopin 27 etudes before too long.


But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.

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#1569004 - 12/02/10 11:18 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1569075 - 12/03/10 02:39 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
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Loc: Australia
...

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#1569091 - 12/03/10 03:11 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)


again who would be so "stupid" as adult to practice 10-12 hours a day and "wasting" his life
at piano? Only kids and teens can afford this, and that's the all secret whole thing.

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#1569095 - 12/03/10 03:22 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Rui725 Offline
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Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)


again who would be so "stupid" as adult to practice 10-12 hours a day and "wasting" his life
at piano? Only kids and teens can afford this, and that's the all secret whole thing.


I don't understand your meaning of this. Doesn't seem to add to the discussion, but rather, as another has nicely placed, stifle it.

By the way, never knew doing something you enjoy is stupid and a waste of life.

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#1569097 - 12/03/10 03:36 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rui725I
don't understand your meaning of this. Doesn't seem to add to the discussion, but rather, as another has nicely placed, stifle it.

By the way, never knew doing something you enjoy is stupid and a waste of life.


I see you don't understand, have you noticed the quotes? What I meant is commitment and free time. When I was a kid I've been practicing sometimes 8 hours per day, as as adult
I don't see a point to that unless my goal is to become concert pianist and make living by playing. Many kids are "forced" more or less to practice, then they got used to and they continue. Adults have too many things to take care of to practice long enough to become adult prodigy, but it's possible.

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#1569098 - 12/03/10 03:40 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Rui725 Offline
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I see, thanks for the clarification!

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#1569103 - 12/03/10 04:11 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Rui725
But the majority believe that even if you practice 10-12 hours a day, a late starter is still a late starter, and the Chopin etudes would be inaccessible unless your started early, which I don't agree with.


If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...

My assertion is that if the etudes were as accessible by late starters, there would be a lot more 50 year olds (as beet31425 suggested) who could play them. (The more virtuosic ones.)


again who would be so "stupid" as adult to practice 10-12 hours a day and "wasting" his life
at piano? Only kids and teens can afford this, and that's the all secret whole thing.


It would be no waste of time. If music/playing is something you love then it's never a waste of time even if your goal ISN'T the stage. The all secret whole thing..haha..wtf?
_________________________

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#1569174 - 12/03/10 08:34 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



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There's actually quite a bit of research that says practicing an instrument (exercising the mind and body) can help prevent or delay the onset of things like arthritis and Alzheimer's.

Staying mentally and physically active is a very important part of being healthy as one ages.
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#1569189 - 12/03/10 09:23 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
[quote=Rui725]
If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...


Um, i'm surprised nobody's mentioned this but look at Richter (27), Paderweski (22), etc... Those people skipped the child prodigy part and went straight to virtuoso in less than a year.

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#1569194 - 12/03/10 09:39 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
delirious Offline
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Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
[quote=Rui725]
If only there were a late starter out there who practiced 10-12 hours a day (or even half that) who could provide evidence of this theory...


Um, i'm surprised nobody's mentioned this but look at Richter (27), Paderweski (22), etc... Those people skipped the child prodigy part and went straight to virtuoso in less than a year.


good point! wiki states:

Quote:
Initially he took piano lessons with a private tutor. At the age of 12, in 1872, he went to Warsaw and was admitted to the Warsaw Conservatorium. After graduating in 1878, he was asked to become a tutor of piano classes at his alma mater, which he accepted. ...Paderewski decided to devote himself to music, and in 1881 he went to Berlin to study music composition with Friedrich Kiel[1] and Heinrich Urban.


so it's true he devoted himself to music quite late althought he had good base music education.

Richer story is interesting too:

Quote:
In early 1920s Richter became interested in music (as well as other artforms, such as cinema, literature, and theatre) and started studying piano. Unusually, he was largely self-taught. His father only gave him a basic education in music, and so did one of his father's pupils, a Czech harpist.[3]

Even at an early age, Richter was an excellent sight-reader, and regularly practiced with local opera and ballet companies. He developed a lifelong passion for opera, vocal and chamber music that found its full expression in the festivals he established in Grange de Meslay, France, and in Moscow, at the Pushkin Museum. At age 15, he started to work at the Odessa Opera where he accompanied the rehearsals.[4]

Early career
On March 19, 1934, Richter gave his first recital, at the Engineers' Club of Odessa; but he did not formally start studying piano until three years later, when he decided to seek Heinrich Neuhaus, a famous pianist and piano teacher, at the Moscow Conservatory

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#1569222 - 12/03/10 10:44 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Kreisler Offline



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Um...neither Richter nor Paderewski were late starters. They weren't concertizing at 10, but they were definitely learning.
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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1569236 - 12/03/10 11:09 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Kreisler]
Rui725 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Um...neither Richter nor Paderewski were late starters. They weren't concertizing at 10, but they were definitely learning.


Both started playing young, but developed, or rather started taking music seriously in there 20's. As Kreisler mentioned, they were not late starters.

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#1569241 - 12/03/10 11:12 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Um...neither Richter nor Paderewski were late starters. They weren't concertizing at 10, but they were definitely learning.


Both started playing young, but developed, or rather started taking music seriously in there 20's. As Kreisler mentioned, they were not late starters.


many kids took piano or music lessons early at school.
In my country we had regular music class, same as math etc
yet seldom this had any impact on cereer choice.

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#1569272 - 12/03/10 11:53 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Stanza Offline
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I am an adult (50+) re-learner, having taken lessons for a number of years as a kid. My teacher has many adult students who are later starters. These are doctors, university professors, etc....He tells me that they do struggle, and that having taken lessons early in life, that I am way ahead.

As a youth, I really never made it past intermediate level pieces, and even though he has totally changed the way I play, the foundation of my learning has helped tremendously, and I can now play much of the advanced literature, and sight read fairly well.

Unfortunately, it is a lot more difficult for the "mature" beginner to make the kind of progress that the young do. It is just part of the physical aspect of our brains and bodies.


Secondly practice and disipline have been touched on. The disipline that comes from mama and teacher is probably stronger than the self disipline of an adult. Eg:

No dinner until you have practiced for a half hour
No TV until you practice
No you are not ready for this piece
You must learn your scales, arps, chords, inversions, theory in a logical and orderly fashion.
You will play in the upcoming recital
You may not move onto the next piece until this one is mastered.
Play this from memory for next time

Etc....

Also +1 to Kreisler about staying physically and mentally active. I like that quote: "You don't stop playing because you become old, you become old because you stop playing"
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#1569287 - 12/03/10 12:22 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: beet31425]
pianoist d'amore Offline
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Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.

However, I thought we are talking about adult beginners' potential to become virtuoso. And I seriously doubt that virtuoso is defined by the ability to play ALL of Chopin's etudes. We have to be a little more reasonable here. If we see someone who starts piano at 30 and plays, say, randomly picked 10 pieces of Chopin etudes by age 40 at the same high standard, we should BELIEVE that this adult has no less talent than someone who started at 5 and is being able to play all of them.

Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Can you be more specific about which of the 27 Chopin Etudes you have in mind?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

There's been some research on brain plasticity in adults that suggests that adults are less hardwired than is commonly accepted, but regardless of academic or logical arguments why adults should or shouldn't be able to go from scratch to Chopin Etude at age 30, the fact remains that in the real world, it almost never happens. (And I only say almost because I'm not sure, but I've never heard of anyone who's pulled it off.)

I think he means all of them. There are hardly any people who started playing piano at 30 and play all the etudes in their 50's; there are many people who started playing piano at 5-7 and play all the etudes in their 20's.

-J


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#1569301 - 12/03/10 12:43 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stanza
The disipline that comes from mama and teacher is probably stronger than the self disipline of an adult. Eg:

No dinner until you have practiced for a half hour
No TV until you practice
No you are not ready for this piece
You must learn your scales, arps, chords, inversions, theory in a logical and orderly fashion.
You will play in the upcoming recital
You may not move onto the next piece until this one is mastered.
Play this from memory for next time

Etc....

Hey, where do I find this parent? I want to teach their kids!
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#1569314 - 12/03/10 01:01 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: pianoist d'amore]
delirious Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.


don't believe all studies, I read compeletely oposite conclusions in studies on many topics. From experience and talk with others I can tell this is not true. Use it or lose it
applies to brain, memory, muscles, hearing, sight etc.

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#1569344 - 12/03/10 01:45 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
pianoist d'amore Offline
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I agree. Still, I don't think one can deny the fact that we all age (and yes, I'm aware that some study shows that bio-markers can be reversible). The point I was trying to make is that "talent" got to be defined in relative terms, esp. after we realize the biological/physical, mental, and, as previous posts have said, social limitations that imposed on both children and adults. Once properly defined, "talent" WILL show with focused and persevere practice regardless of whether the person starts as a child or an adult.

Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.


don't believe all studies, I read compeletely oposite conclusions in studies on many topics. From experience and talk with others I can tell this is not true. Use it or lose it
applies to brain, memory, muscles, hearing, sight etc.

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#1569532 - 12/03/10 06:43 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: pianoist d'amore]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Medical research shows that physically a normal person's hearing and memory loss starts around age 40. Thus, if it takes 15-20 years for some 5-y.o. starter to play all Chopin etudes, and if playing ALL Chopin etudes is what this is about, then the latest time one needs to get started in in early 20s.


The premises are all wrong... It doesn't take that long for an extremely talented kid to learn all the Chopin etudes. And playing piano is not directly dependent on hearing and memory in the sense your statement implies, either (not that everybody experienced those losses equally, anyway).

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#1569542 - 12/03/10 07:00 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
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Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

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#1569585 - 12/03/10 08:29 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Canonie Offline
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Congratulations chobeethaninovscriaschuclemebachlisztzart grin
That's a great story. Way to go! Make sure you tell us about your concerts when they happen.

I like your signature line by the way, especially beethoven's
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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#1569612 - 12/03/10 10:06 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.


It should be obvious that if people who love piano and music could do that sort of thing at retirement age, when they finally have the "free" time for it, they would. In droves. But they don't. Hmmm....

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#1569691 - 12/04/10 12:33 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
Rui725 Offline
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Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.


It should be obvious that if people who love piano and music could do that sort of thing at retirement age, when they finally have the "free" time for it, they would. In droves. But they don't. Hmmm....


Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not. People burn out at around 65-70 from a lifetime of hardwork, and in some cases even earlier.

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#1569745 - 12/04/10 03:16 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
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only because retirement in our society starts too early and basically means preparing for death and also because the myths you can learn only when you're young which is BS.

Look at Rita Levi-Montalcini, at 100 years old she is still working actively in her institue.

Quote:
She was awarded the 1986 Nobel Prize for Medicine jointly with an American, Stanley Cohen, for her research into NGF: the proteins and amino-acids which enable the cells of the nervous system to grow and take on specialised tasks. Despite her age, Dr Levi-Montalcini, a neurologist and development biologist, still works every day at the European Brain Research Institute, which she founded in Rome.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-this-the-secret-of-eternal-life-1674005.html

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#1569749 - 12/04/10 03:19 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Rui725 Offline
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I don't believe it's too early. Working full-time for the past 3 and 1/2 years, and I already feel a toll. I can't imagine what it would feel like for another 30+ years of this. Anyway, this is way off topic.

Anyways, life burns you out, such that the later you start the anything, the harder it becomes to pick it up.


Edited by Rui725 (12/04/10 03:26 AM)

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#1569755 - 12/04/10 03:48 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
delirious Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rui725
I don't believe it's too early. Working full-time for the past 3 and 1/2 years, and I already feel a toll. I can't imagine what it would feel like for another 30+ years of this. Anyway, this is way off topic.


yes but mostly because we work at work we don't like or sometimes even hate,
we eat what we shouldn't, we don't exercise etc etc so no wonder by the time you 60 you are all sick and exhausted.

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#1569757 - 12/04/10 04:00 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rui725

Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not.


So far, nobody has been able to give an example, and I would expect for there to be at least a few if it were really possible.

After all, grown people make drastic career changes and succeed in new fields all the time - so why are there not similar examples of people switching to classical performance, if it is possible?

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#1569907 - 12/04/10 10:54 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Rui725

Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not. People burn out at around 65-70 from a lifetime of hardwork, and in some cases even earlier.

This statement is only mildly acceptable if you yourself are around 65 - 70 years old or older, and have your own experience and that of friends to draw on. But the very fact that you are writing this suggests that you are probably young - maybe the age that you think it's still possible.

Yes, I've seen burned out people. They look and act old. Some were in their twenties - age had nothing to do with it. Attitude, maybe what they were taught or how they had been treated by influential people in their lives, or whatever came into play. Age didn't.

When part of society constantly creates these negative images for us to "aim" toward, people become cowed and timid, because they buy into those images. Please do not play that role on this site. In essence you are talking to men and women who are striving toward goals in music, and telling part of that population that they have a serious flaw they cannot overcome and that will get worse. You have stated a myth, and that myth can be debilitating to anyone that listens to it.

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#1569910 - 12/04/10 10:57 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keystring]
delirious Offline
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[quote=keystringYes, I've seen burned out people. They look and act old. Some were in their twenties - age had nothing to do with it. Attitude, maybe what they were taught or how they had been treated by influential people in their lives, or whatever came into play. Age didn't.

When part of society constantly creates these negative images for us to "aim" toward, people become cowed and timid, because they buy into those images. Please do not play that role on this site. In essence you are talking to men and women who are striving toward goals in music, and telling part of that population that they have a serious flaw they cannot overcome and that will get worse. You have stated a myth, and that myth can be debilitating to anyone that listens to it. [/quote]

thumb bingo, was his name...

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#1570000 - 12/04/10 12:34 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
lean to tail Offline
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Is 21 a late starter?

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#1570002 - 12/04/10 12:34 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keystring]
Rui725 Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Rui725

Progressing to an advanced level at that late a start, post-retirement, I can see as unlikely, but early twenties, early thirties, I don't see why not. People burn out at around 65-70 from a lifetime of hardwork, and in some cases even earlier.

This statement is only mildly acceptable if you yourself are around 65 - 70 years old or older, and have your own experience and that of friends to draw on. But the very fact that you are writing this suggests that you are probably young - maybe the age that you think it's still possible.

Yes, I've seen burned out people. They look and act old. Some were in their twenties - age had nothing to do with it. Attitude, maybe what they were taught or how they had been treated by influential people in their lives, or whatever came into play. Age didn't.

When part of society constantly creates these negative images for us to "aim" toward, people become cowed and timid, because they buy into those images. Please do not play that role on this site. In essence you are talking to men and women who are striving toward goals in music, and telling part of that population that they have a serious flaw they cannot overcome and that will get worse. You have stated a myth, and that myth can be debilitating to anyone that listens to it.


To place matters correct, let me apologize if I have shifted anyone's musical goals. I have my own musical goals as well, and I sincerely hope I did not sway anyone from there's from my petty post.

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#1570017 - 12/04/10 01:01 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Frozenicicles Offline
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What do you mean by advanced level? Piano is a lot like sports. Most people can get to a hobbyist level, but it takes special training from a young age to get to an Olympics level. I've heard of a few people who started after age 15 but before age 20 who got to a very advanced level, so maybe 21 isn't stretching it too much. You up your chances by finding a teacher who can pick pieces and technical exercises that would best fit your stage of development so that you progress quickly with the foundations well in place. A 21 year old doesn't have as much time to play around with as a 10 year old if they ever want to be able to adequately play the toughest pieces in the piano literature. Since chances of a 21 year old beginner eventually doing piano professionally are slim (unless they really want to teach), I wouldn't recommend that they pursue this route since it would take a lot of time away from more realistic endeavours.

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#1570046 - 12/04/10 01:35 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Frozenicicles]
Rui725 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
What do you mean by advanced level? Piano is a lot like sports. Most people can get to a hobbyist level, but it takes special training from a young age to get to an Olympics level. I've heard of a few people who started after age 15 but before age 20 who got to a very advanced level, so maybe 21 isn't stretching it too much. You up your chances by finding a teacher who can pick pieces and technical exercises that would best fit your stage of development so that you progress quickly with the foundations well in place. A 21 year old doesn't have as much time to play around with as a 10 year old if they ever want to be able to adequately play the toughest pieces in the piano literature. Since chances of a 21 year old beginner eventually doing piano professionally are slim (unless they really want to teach), I wouldn't recommend that they pursue this route since it would take a lot of time away from more realistic endeavours.


In response, I believe wholeheartedly that the "other" endeavors in life are over rated, as I've personally walked many paths and have yet lived up to anything, but this is purely subjective. Wasting time is also subjective, what is a waste of time differs from one to another.

I watched a peculiar, but rather realistic film a few hours ago starring Leonardo DiCarprio and Kate Winslet called Revolutionary Road. For those that have not watched it, it's basically about how society ties down a young couple into leading a life that they thought was what they wanted and when the opportunity to change their life presents itself, they don't take it.



Edited by Rui725 (12/04/10 01:35 PM)

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#1570191 - 12/04/10 04:43 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
CebuKid Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
You're both right - children hardwire as they go along. Please nobody mention myelin re:adults or I'll scream!

You're the only one who ever mentions that, and usually nobody replies because we don't know what you're talking about.
No, it's in a book somewhere - The Talent Code? A bogus claim about upping your myelin quotient.


Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist. Being an adult restarter, I became fascinated with brain science and how certain activities, like learning a sport or musical instrument are best done during childhood.

Despite what the science says, I do believe there ARE adult prodigies out there, and quite a few on the ABF who rapidly advance to level 4 and up in less than a year.


http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/articles/piano-playing-a-public-health-concept-764/

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#1570195 - 12/04/10 04:55 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: CebuKid]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3713
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist...

And fwiw (possibly not much), Fredrik Ullen isn't just any pianist; he's a seriously awesome pianist in the process of recording all 100 of Sorabji's Transcendental Etudes (sampling easily findable on youtube). That a mere mortal attempts to wrestle with such music is one thing; that he succeeds so beautifully is another; that he has a full-time job as a neuroscientist on the side defies belief....

-J

_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#1570223 - 12/04/10 05:51 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Edited by RonaldSteinway (12/04/10 05:56 PM)

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#1570228 - 12/04/10 05:58 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: lean to tail]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: lean to tail
Is 21 a late starter?


Why do you need to worry about age? You cannot get younger anyway. Just start practicing and working really hard to reach your natural potential. Worrying about too late or not will not help. Find a good teacher who can unlock your potential.

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#1570230 - 12/04/10 06:02 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1174
Originally Posted By: Stanza
I am an adult (50+) re-learner, having taken lessons for a number of years as a kid. My teacher has many adult students who are later starters. These are doctors, university professors, etc....He tells me that they do struggle, and that having taken lessons early in life, that I am way ahead.

As a youth, I really never made it past intermediate level pieces, and even though he has totally changed the way I play, the foundation of my learning has helped tremendously, and I can now play much of the advanced literature, and sight read fairly well.




And you are living proof of Ullen's theories. I am a re-starter too - started again after a quarter century. I forgot the bass cleff and didn't really even know where I "left off" (I found out later when I found a level 4 John Thompson book in the bench of my childhood piano). But...when restarting, I found I didn't have to do an alfred's method book and start from scratch... and finger dexterity and hand independence were still there. I've also observed that adults who start piano from scratch, but have a prior childhood musical background in something else, are also more advanced and learn quicker.

Here's an excerpt from that same article:

Ullén hopes to continue by studying a group of pianists who practiced as children but then stopped playing. His objective is to investigate whether the effects on the pyramidal pathways are lifelong effects, or whether they require perseverant lifelong practicing to be maintained.

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#1570240 - 12/04/10 06:18 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: lean to tail]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: lean to tail
Is 21 a late starter?

absolutely not.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1570373 - 12/04/10 10:36 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: chrisbell]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
No, but 35 is.

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#1570398 - 12/05/10 12:32 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: RonaldSteinway]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.

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#1570413 - 12/05/10 01:25 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7763
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.

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#1570420 - 12/05/10 02:16 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: wr

Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.
I agree, I think it's a failure to search hard.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570421 - 12/05/10 02:21 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: CebuKid]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist.
I have corresponded with Fredrik Ullen:
Quote:
The main mechanisms behind motor learning are surely reorganizations
of the connections between nerve cells, including formation of new connections, which will change the behavior
of the neuronal networks. That's the general picture from a vast body
of human and animal studies on learning. So there is no evidence at all that myelination would be *directly* involved
in the process of learning e.g. a new piece of music, although of course IF myelination is altered it would have consequences for processing in those neural regions (e.g. the general degradation of motor functions in multiple sclerosis where myelin is damaged). For the white matter plasticity we have studied in pianists boosted myelination is only a working hypothesis, and we are at the moment excited about studying this phenomenon and its behavioral consequences further!
Quote:

No I think the main explanation is automatisation. In the beginning,
playing the piece requires a lot of conscious control; in a brain scanner you would see lot of activity in "higher" brain areas of the motor system in the frontal lobe: areas that are involved in conscious attention and planning of movement. With extended
practice you will develop much more efficient motor representations of the piece, which can be executed without much conscious effort, and activity in
higher brain areas will be consequently be less. Again, I don't think alterations of myelination are important for these processes which essentially reflect reorganizations in neuronal networks in the brain's motor system.

It appears, though, that childhood music training stimulates myelination in pathways involved in music performance and this may very well have beneficial
effects for the function of the nervous system, but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment, which we proposed on the basis of findings in pianists. We don't know the functional
consequences of this type of changes.


Also:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
here's one site that explains about myelin and his work. The fascinating article is quite clear that myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/200123-White-Matter


That's all from this thread http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1406455/1.html which OT'd into The Talent Code.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570457 - 12/05/10 04:34 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: lean to tail]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: lean to tail
Is 21 a late starter?


It depends on what one is wanting to do.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1570481 - 12/05/10 06:01 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: stores]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
She is hundred or something and after a 1 year of lessons plyas quite good I'd say...


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#1570482 - 12/05/10 06:03 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
"This octogenarian has played the piano for over 80 years. She is playing this patriotic medley for her church. Her CD recorded 4-5 years ago sold out."

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#1570564 - 12/05/10 10:25 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: wr]
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.


This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc. So don't tell anyone they can't achieve a certain level because they are old/female/male/handicappped/a caveman...

No one is saying you can't try to be the best you can be, and enjoy the fruits of your labors, whatever they are, but just don't be delusional.


Edited by Stanza (12/05/10 10:33 AM)
_________________________
Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30

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#1570567 - 12/05/10 10:30 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
delirious Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Holland
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.


This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc.


and all because democracy... smokin

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#1570570 - 12/05/10 10:45 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: delirious]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: delirious
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish.


This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc.


and all because democracy... smokin


Huh?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1570573 - 12/05/10 10:48 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Stanza]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Stanza
This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education.
If only it were that simple. I work with plenty of children easily classed as neglected compared to their cohort. If a parent doesn't support a child's education can you call it a good education?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570577 - 12/05/10 10:51 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: PaulaPiano34]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....

Top
#1570585 - 12/05/10 11:01 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: RonaldSteinway]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....


What the hell does that mean?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1570589 - 12/05/10 11:08 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1174
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Sorry for lurking smile , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist.
I have corresponded with Fredrik Ullen:
Quote:
The main mechanisms behind motor learning are surely reorganizations
of the connections between nerve cells, including formation of new connections, which will change the behavior
of the neuronal networks. That's the general picture from a vast body
of human and animal studies on learning. So there is no evidence at all that myelination would be *directly* involved
in the process of learning e.g. a new piece of music, although of course IF myelination is altered it would have consequences for processing in those neural regions (e.g. the general degradation of motor functions in multiple sclerosis where myelin is damaged). For the white matter plasticity we have studied in pianists boosted myelination is only a working hypothesis, and we are at the moment excited about studying this phenomenon and its behavioral consequences further!
Quote:

No I think the main explanation is automatisation. In the beginning,
playing the piece requires a lot of conscious control; in a brain scanner you would see lot of activity in "higher" brain areas of the motor system in the frontal lobe: areas that are involved in conscious attention and planning of movement. With extended
practice you will develop much more efficient motor representations of the piece, which can be executed without much conscious effort, and activity in
higher brain areas will be consequently be less. Again, I don't think alterations of myelination are important for these processes which essentially reflect reorganizations in neuronal networks in the brain's motor system.

It appears, though, that childhood music training stimulates myelination in pathways involved in music performance and this may very well have beneficial
effects for the function of the nervous system, but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment, which we proposed on the basis of findings in pianists. We don't know the functional
consequences of this type of changes.


Also:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
here's one site that explains about myelin and his work. The fascinating article is quite clear that myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/200123-White-Matter


That's all from this thread http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1406455/1.html which OT'd into The Talent Code.


Thanks for the reposts. Interesting excerpt from this:

"myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.

Top
#1570658 - 12/05/10 01:00 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: stores]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation.

It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability.
My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it.

The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings.

My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play.


Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.


Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....


What the hell does that mean?


HAHAHAHAAH.....what did the mom smoke to produce such a delusional kid?


Edited by RonaldSteinway (12/05/10 01:01 PM)

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#1570662 - 12/05/10 01:06 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: CebuKid]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: CebuKid
"myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:

This finding suggests that the insulating of nerve fibers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.


I hope I haven't confused you. The above is by me (I think), the first two quote boxes are Ullen. Hold on I'm wrong! It's just the first sentence (I think).

And Jeez, ain't it powerful stuff!


Edited by keyboardklutz (12/05/10 01:14 PM)
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#1570692 - 12/05/10 02:01 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
landorrano Offline
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A few notable words from the Ullen text:

only a working hypothesis

but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment

We don't know the functional consequences

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#1570704 - 12/05/10 02:25 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Ullen is the cautious scientist, unlike the usual 'popular science' writers who get media space. Basically he's saying the jury's out on the role of myelin in learning.
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#1570719 - 12/05/10 02:40 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
landorrano Offline
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Concerning the window of opportunity quoted by CebuKid:

"This finding suggests" , the keyword being "suggests" and not "proves" or "Demonstrates".

Also, he doesn't show whether it is important if one can speak a foreign language without an accent .

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#1570730 - 12/05/10 02:54 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keystring Online   content
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In regards to learning, much more is involved than physical changes in the brain.

In regards to language learning, only one factor is that adults think abstractly, and tend to make the realities they encounter match the theories they already have, which come from what they have already learned. This is a behavior which can be replaced by another behavior by choice if a person can get on top of it.

So you "hear" a sound in a foreign language, but filter it to match sounds you know, making it fit into your existing matrix. You do not hear the sound - you have interpreted that sound. When you try to duplicate it, you are pronouncing what you imagine what it must sound like, because you have filterd it - you have not yet actually ever heard it.

To get past this behavior you also have to know what to listen for. One aspect of language is musical: rhythm, cadence, pause, speed, pitch variation. Who has ever tried humming the melody of a phrase or listen for it? Mostly people try to grasp individual words. Then really, really listening for that sound, and trying to duplicate it with the uninhibited intensity of a child - that is also a difficult choice. There is a host of behaviors and choices in this one aspect. These are not part of lost abilities or closed pathways.

It is very possible that the brain changes physically in a certain way when adults learn, and that its physical change is different for children. But that does not automatically determine that a late learner will have an accent? It tells us only one thing: the physical change in a brain. It also does not address the many other aspects involved in learning.


Edited by keystring (12/05/10 02:58 PM)
Edit Reason: cut last unnecessary paragraph

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#1570735 - 12/05/10 03:04 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keyboardklutz Offline
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You folks know the origin of the word barbarian? It's Ancient Greek. It means the people how go ba,ba,ba which to them was anybody who spoke a different language. They were quite right. By the age of nine months we hardwire how to exclusively parse our own language - it's never the same after that.
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#1570747 - 12/05/10 03:26 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: keyboardklutz]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
By the age of nine months we hardwire how to exclusively parse our own language - it's never the same after that.


Your formulation lacks the scientific caution of the Scientist Ullen, and has the character of the usual "pop science" drivel that gets media space.

By the way, there doesn't appear to be any relation between your concluding statement that I quote and the bit about the Greeks. And besides, in what were the Greeks right, exactly.



Edited by landorrano (12/05/10 03:34 PM)

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#1570760 - 12/05/10 03:44 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Edited by keyboardklutz (12/05/10 03:49 PM)
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#1570783 - 12/05/10 04:35 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Devane Offline
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"By 6 months of age, however, infants show preferences for phonemes in their native language over those in foreign languages, and by the end of their first year no longer respond to phonetic elements peculiar to non-native languages. The ability to perceive these phonemic contrasts evidently persists for several more years, as evidenced by the fact that children can learn to speak a second language without accent and with fluent grammar until about age 7 or 8. After this age, however, performance gradually declines no matter what the extent of practice or exposure"

Neuroscience. 2nd edition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11007/

These damn critical periods!

I've yet to go through this thread. I'm sure the Oprah Book Club people will have some amusing "Yes You Can" stories. After a few years when all the hype dies down they'll be asking "four more years?". grin

Anyway lets see......
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#1570903 - 12/05/10 08:18 PM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Rui725]
Devane Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler

The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?

Adult Prodigies are like Dark Matter. They can't be observed. But it explains their absence and now the books balance.

According to people who read Talent Books its really easy to become an expert and there are no obstacles. Brain structures has no bearing and you can re-arrange your brain at will. The problem though is the extreme lack of physical presence of these geniuses, young or old.
"Dark Matter Prodigies © ". It makes sense. cool

Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Um, i'm surprised nobody's mentioned this but look at Richter (27), Paderweski (22), etc... Those people skipped the child prodigy part and went straight to virtuoso in less than a year.


Other than those claims are not true, even if it they were true that it an incredibly rare event. How someone can use isolated cases as examples to what is normal is beyond logic.

Since when did a one in a million, two million, three million etc become good odds?
Originally Posted By: CebuKid


Despite what the science says, I do believe there ARE adult prodigies out there, and quite a few on the ABF who rapidly advance to level 4 and up in less than a year.

http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/articles/piano-playing-a-public-health-concept-764/


But they get converted into Dark Energy by level 5 so they can't be observed. Just having a laugh. wink

Initial progress is one thing but that doesn't guarantee unlimited progress. I don't know what level 4 equates to. I'm talking about the level where people buy your cd and you're playing those Chopin Etude at Carnegie etc and winning competitions and the attention isn't from "novelty" from "quick initial progress for your age", an accident (car crash/lightning) that re-wired your brain etc.

Originally Posted By: CebuKid

I've also observed that adults who start piano from scratch, but have a prior childhood musical background in something else, are also more advanced and learn quicker.

Here's an excerpt from that same article:

Ullén hopes to continue by studying a group of pianists who practiced as children but then stopped playing. His objective is to investigate whether the effects on the pyramidal pathways are lifelong effects, or whether they require perseverant lifelong practicing to be maintained.

Yes. But it doesn't make the late-starters happy though. For you it will. grin

Brain structure is a factor too. A musician's brain has a profile...

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/jneuro;23/27/9240

Going even further.....notice this..

"Although some of these multiregional differences could be attributable to innate predisposition....

Gottfried Schlaug and Ellen Winner are working on this at the moment.

"I would bet anything that the most gifted children, the ones with the most potential in music start out with brains that are structurally different.

Ellen Winner. My Brilliant Brian (Documentary about pianist Marc Yu) He played at Carnegie with Lang Lang this year (or last year).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1955232874558919934#


Anyway the last people I remember to be gifted were let downs. Angry Girl and Philospher.
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#1571113 - 12/06/10 07:24 AM Re: Talented Child vs. Talented Adult [Re: Devane]
CebuKid Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1174
Originally Posted By: Kreisler

The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?


There is one hall-of-fame golfer that took the game up at age 21 and played at a very high level: Larry Nelson.

http://www.thegoal.com/players/golf/nelson_larry/nelson_larry.html

Speaking of which...Golf is the ultimate "adult beginner" sport.

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