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Rui725 Offline OP
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I have a question (or two) that was sparked by another thread under "Is this child really good (Chopin Waltz in A-Flat major)".

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?

Also, is this "sensitivity" to the language of music an innate trait, regardless of how old you are?

Last edited by Rui725; 12/02/10 12:41 AM.
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I think that very much of the sensitivity can be (and is) learned. I think people who listen to well-played (&/or well-sung) music, of any genre, can often pick up on the "sensitivity models" demonstrated by good musicians.

Fast progress by adults deemed dubious? Why? I don't see that happening, but maybe I'm not paying attention to the right things...


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Rui725 Offline OP
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Hmm, they appear once in a while, sometimes here and sometimes on adult beginners forums.

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Well, I'll venture a guess that some "progress" looks like only progress in finger speed, without much evidence of there being any brains behind it, or any of the sensitivity you talked about. But I criticize that problem in children as well.

One of the signs of good learning is being able to apply that learning to new situations. If I learn to play my best piece "sensitively", but when I learn new pieces I'm about as sensitive as a robot, have I really learned anything yet?


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Originally Posted by Rui725

Lets say, the girl in the other thread's video versus someone who was 35, both demonstrating same learning curve and the same repertoire within the same period of study. With the number of posts regarding "abnormal" progress of adults frequently seen here and in Adult Beginner's Forum, why would an adult's fast progress be deemed at times, dubious, and the child's be seen as talented?



Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.

Quote


Also, is this "sensitivity" to the language of music an innate trait, regardless of how old you are?


I think having high degree of sensitivity is innate (or else it is learned so early as to appear that way). Obviously, people can still learn stuff at any age, including how to be more sensitive to classical music than they already are, but it seems such sensitivity would have to be perceived as differently than if the person had, to the best of their knowledge, always felt such sensitivity.



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Originally Posted by wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.

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Originally Posted by delirious
Originally Posted by wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.


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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by delirious
Originally Posted by wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.



I see now you are hard wired.

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Rui725 Offline OP
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I heard this great comment from a pianist once:

"One plays the piano with the mind and not the fingers."

He was addressing a question regarding increasing playing speed. I think anyone that applies this concept can increase his/her learning progress.

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Originally Posted by Rui725
I heard this great comment from a pianist once:

"One plays the piano with the mind and not the fingers."

He was addressing a question regarding increasing playing speed. I think anyone that applies this concept can increase his/her learning progress.


A lot of this mind/body stuff isn't really news, even for us backward classical pianist types who are over the age of fifty. However, I have yet to meet the 300-year-old pianist who stopped the effects of time with those methods.



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Last edited by Kreisler; 12/02/10 09:17 AM. Reason: bickering removed

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Last edited by Kreisler; 12/02/10 09:18 AM. Reason: bickering removed

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Originally Posted by Rui725
Hmm, they appear once in a while, sometimes here and sometimes on adult beginners forums.
I think that in the catgory of appearing "once in a while" you can find just about any kind of statement.

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talented is talented - doesn't matter if it's child or adult.
Talent may be discovered at any age.

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True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Originally Posted by Kreisler
True, but talent also develops much differently at different ages.


all depends, what do you think about this?

Quote
The other way to look at precocity is of course to work backward — to look at adult geniuses and see what they were like as kids. A number of studies have taken this approach, Gladwell said, and they find a similar pattern. A study of 200 highly accomplished adults found that just 34 percent had been considered in any way precocious as children. He also read a long list of historical geniuses who had been notably undistinguished as children — a list including Copernicus, Rembrandt, Bach, Newton, Beethoven, Kant, and Leonardo Da Vinci (“that famous code-maker”). “None of [them] would have made it into Hunter College,” Gladwell observed.

To be a prodigy in music, for example, is to be a mimic, to reproduce what you hear from grown-up musicians. Yet only rarely, according to Gladwell, do child musical prodigies manage to make the necessary transition from mimicry to creating a style of their own. The “prodigy midlife crisis,” as it has been called, proves fatal to all but a handful would-be Mozarts. “Precociousness, in other words, is not necessarily or always a prelude to adult achievement. Sometimes it’s just its own little discrete state.”



http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026

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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by delirious
Originally Posted by wr
Because children are hard-wired to be learning very quickly, and adults aren't. Additionally, we've had adults show up making claims about their ability that didn't really pan out.


wrong, childred are not hardwired, adults are that's why their ability to learn diminished. But adults can still remain a child inside and learn quicly. It's all in your head.


Of course kids are hard-wired to learn fast (i.e., it is part of the development process as determined by genetics), and that is what the vast majority of them do.

Your idea about it all being in your head, is all in your head.



I disagree...it IS all in your head. Learning something new takes time and dedication, but its no different for children than it is adults. Both have to practice very hard and be determined. Its ultimately up to you how well you do.

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