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#1570114 - 12/04/10 03:08 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Sorry, but this is really pathetic. You'd sooner try to discredit me by asking to me prove mechanical facts (in detail which you would never understand) than bother to think about the implications of my practically illustrated point regarding a chain?

I'll say once more:

If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570118 - 12/04/10 03:11 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
.....unless it's autobiography!

....and pretty seriously, that's a lot of the answer right there.

Nyir: You seem to be trying very hard to be responsive and reasonable, and I think on this thread you've done pretty well at it. But it seems that you're not realizing some limitations of what you're doing -- and what KBK just said is actually very relevant to those. While indeed you're dealing a lot with hard science, you don't appreciate the extent to which much of it involves subjectivity and selectivity, much of which comes from one's own experience, and which in your case has a very strong underpinning from that. I don't know how much KBK might have intended this as a specific hint, but it's right -- your material seems to be much in the nature of 'autobiography.'
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1570119 - 12/04/10 03:11 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Asking for sources is hardly pathetic - supplying them is de rigueur! if you wish to be taken seriously.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570124 - 12/04/10 03:15 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
"I can't think of one non-fiction volume or paper I own or have ever seen without them - unless it's autobiography!"


Perhaps that's because you have never read one on mechanics. Do you believe that every law of foundation mechanics is cited in mechanical papers? Stop fooling around with this irrelevant and ill-informed nonsense and keep it to the subject please.

I'm going to keep repeating this as long as you keep trying to change the subject, instead of dealing with the issue:

"If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth."
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570126 - 12/04/10 03:19 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
"I can't think of one non-fiction volume or paper I own or have ever seen without them - unless it's autobiography!"


Perhaps that's because you have never read one on mechanics.
What? There are books on mechanics with no citations? You have led a sheltered life.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570132 - 12/04/10 03:33 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Maybe if I illustrate: yesterday you were convinced that the intrinsics were strong muscles. Today you aren't. Now is that because I kept on telling you this? Or is it because I supplied such good references that you had no choice but accept it?

No it's your turn convince me.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570133 - 12/04/10 03:34 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
What? There are books on mechanics with no citations? You have led a sheltered life.


Elementary laws of mechanics do not require citations. They are accepted. I did not say that mechanical papers have no citations. However, they do not need to cite every fundamental law of foundation level mechanics. There is no dispute over them.

I'll repeat myself once more:

"If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth."

and if you have nothing better to offer than sarcastic attempts to change the subject and discredit me, rather than further the topic (as you have done over a number of successive posts now) I will be reporting you and seeing how the moderators view it.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570135 - 12/04/10 03:35 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
It doesn't help you look smart to keep copy/pasting the same thing over and over -- regardless of your reason.

A little less persistence would probably help you. smile
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1570138 - 12/04/10 03:38 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If I get a credible follow up to that point, rather than a flimsy attempt to discredit it, I'll stop repeating it. When kbk can produce a photo of a chain doing what I asked him to, then I'll consider the possibility that the mechanical laws are in error.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570141 - 12/04/10 03:40 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Maybe you missed this:
Maybe if I illustrate: yesterday you were convinced that the intrinsics were strong muscles. Today you aren't. Now is that because I kept on telling you this? Or is it because I supplied such good references that you had no choice but accept it?

No it's your turn convince me.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570143 - 12/04/10 03:43 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
I'll repeat this part again first, in direct response to your attempt to change the subject.

"Elementary laws of mechanics do not require citations. They are accepted. I did not say that mechanical papers have no citations. However, they do not need to cite every fundamental law of foundation level mechanics. There is no dispute over them."

classical mechanics have been established for hundreds of years.

and I'll repeat this once more, to remind you of the point that you are trying to change the subject from:

"If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth."

If you have a point of relevance to make then make it. Stop trying to tell me to prove established mechanics and start proving how YOU supposedly defy it.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570145 - 12/04/10 03:46 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I don't think you get it. You convince people with the authorities you can call on just as I convinced you. There's no other way.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570147 - 12/04/10 03:48 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If you don't believe me then do this and prove that I'm wrong:

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Trying to duck the point is of no use to anybody here. If you do not have anything to contribute then stop trying to change the subject and simply do not contribute.

Personally, if I reach a point in an argument where I have no credible follow up, that is where I stop and rethink.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570149 - 12/04/10 03:50 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2629
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I don't think you get it. You convince people with the authorities you can call on just as I convinced you. There's no other way.

I am completely neutral in this debate and I happen to like both kbk and N! However I must chime in here and say that there is another way to get at truth: experiment. You do not need an authority to tell you that if you drop an apple from some height on this planet it will drop to the ground.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1570150 - 12/04/10 03:51 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
It took an authority to write about it!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570151 - 12/04/10 03:52 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Yes, precisely. The man who claims it will not drop is the man who is required to make a proof- hence:

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Show me that a chain can do that and I'll believe that an arm can "hang" at piano without a point of support at the finger.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570154 - 12/04/10 03:55 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
OK Prof, start experimenting! Though no doubt you're re-inventing the wheel.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570160 - 12/04/10 04:04 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2629
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
OK Prof, start experimenting! Though no doubt you're re-inventing the wheel.

I already did the gedanken experiment. smile
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1570163 - 12/04/10 04:06 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Seriously, you ever seen any experiments without sources?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570165 - 12/04/10 04:09 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If you are so determined not to think then keep changing the subject. Alternatively, try this experiment:

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Are you seriously more interested in trying to ask me to prove the law of physics that proves the above impossible than THINKING about the implications of what know full well to be impossible? You'd seriously sooner hope to push this fact of nature aside to promote a predetermined argument than think about it?

Personally I have no predetermined views on piano technique. If I did, I'd have views similar to your own. However, I threw all those beliefs out after I realised that they were not working and that neither did they stand up to rational scrutiny.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570168 - 12/04/10 04:12 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Just remember, I changed your mind using a scientific method. It works! It is how I work.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570169 - 12/04/10 04:15 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Indeed. That's what people with open minds do- they think and reevaluate based on evidence. Perhaps you could open your own mind enough to wonder why you cannot do the impossible scenario with the chain, and ask yourself how that translates to the arm?

Or are you too busy asking me to reevaluate the accepted laws of physics?
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570171 - 12/04/10 04:17 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
And where's your evidence?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570176 - 12/04/10 04:23 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
My evidence is in EVERY book of foundation level mechanics. I seem to recall having already mentioned that on a number of occasions. Now where is YOUR evidence?

Once more:


"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

This is not going away.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570178 - 12/04/10 04:24 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Indeed. That's what people with open minds do- they think and reevaluate based on evidence. Perhaps you could open your own mind enough to wonder why you cannot do the impossible scenario with the chain, and ask yourself how that translates to the arm?

Or are you too busy asking me to reevaluate the accepted laws of physics?

If you're talking about Newton's laws, they are by no means absolutely accepted. They are more descriptors of how things tend to work than absolute laws which pertain to everything. Check out Einstein's theory of relativity.

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#1570179 - 12/04/10 04:25 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Frozenicicles]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles

If you're talking about Newton's laws, they are by no means absolutely accepted. They are more descriptors of how things tend to work than absolute laws which pertain to everything. Check out Einstein's theory of relativity.


Have they ever changed the following scenario?

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Classical mechanics is still widely accepted in practice for good reason. Mechanical engineers don't tend to involve a lot of Einstein- because they don't need to. I'm not aware of anything in Einstein that might allow for the idea of a chain of free joints that supports itself at one end.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570180 - 12/04/10 04:26 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
My evidence is in EVERY book of foundation level mechanics.
In that case I suggest you start quoting one.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570182 - 12/04/10 04:27 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
My evidence is in EVERY book of foundation level mechanics.
In that case I suggest you start quoting one.


Once more:


"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

This is not going away. There is not going to be any end to my repeating this point other than you RESPONDING to that point or not replying. I've already told you that I am not going to prove that 1+1=2. The onus is on you to prove that it isn't.

_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570188 - 12/04/10 04:36 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Godwin's law is never wrong!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570189 - 12/04/10 04:37 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Once more:


"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

This is not going away. There is not going to be any end to my repeating this point other than you RESPONDING to that point or not replying. I've already told you that I am not going to prove that 1+1=2. The onus is on you to prove that it isn't
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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