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#1569792 - 12/04/10 05:46 AM A Lesson in Lumbricales
keyboardklutz Offline
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Above is a picture of the palm side of the hand. The four thick white lines are your flexors (their other end is by the elbow). Between them in red (and attached to them) are the lumbricales - you can just make out their numbers 2nd, 3rd, 4th, the one on the far right marked 1st lumbricale is the one that connects to the index finger. They are a major element of the intrinsic muscle group of the hand. Their job is to do two things 1) straighten (extend) the nail and middle joints and 2) bend (flex) the knuckle joint. I was told by a hand transplant surgeon that they do job 1 whilst you bend your finger to make the movement smooth. If you could contract them on their own they would bend the finger at the knuckle and make your last two joints stick up (extend) - maybe excellent for flat finger technique! Obviously if they were to get too strong they would pull on the tendon and deform your hand.

This you do want to know - about 22% of people have their lumbricales starting further down by the carpal tunnel. It could be the cause of carpal tunnel syndrome. Timins ME. Muscular anatomic variants of the wrist and hand: findings on MR imaging. AJR 1999;172 : 1397-1401
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#1569796 - 12/04/10 06:07 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Alan Fraser says that the lumbricals are responsible for movement of cupping the palm. Imagine taking a ping pong ball and trying to squeeze it into your palm so it doesn't drop, without the fingers curling around. Do you have evidence to confirm or deny this? I can certainly feel that same action in playing.
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#1569802 - 12/04/10 06:28 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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I think before I took Fraser's word for it I might consult a well respected text on the subject like Muscles Testing and Function (2005):
Quote:
Action: Extend the interphalangeal joints and simultaneously
flex the metacarpophalangeal joints
of the second through fifth digits. The lumbricales
also extend the interphalangeal joints when the
metacarpophalangeal joints are extended. As the
fingers are extended at all joints, the flexor digitorum
profundus tendons offer a form of passive resistance
to this movement. Because the lumbricales
are attached to the flexor profundus tendons, they
can diminish this resistive tension by contracting
and pulling these tendons distally, and this release
of tension decreases the contractile force needed by
the muscles that extend the finger joints.

Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Alan Fraser says that the lumbricals are responsible for movement of cupping the palm. Imagine taking a ping pong ball and trying to squeeze it into your palm so it doesn't drop, without the fingers curling around. Do you have evidence to confirm or deny this? I can certainly feel that same action in playing.
You mean the opponens digiti minimi and the flexor digiti minimi muscles - there, I've done some of your homework for you.

also the Palmaris Longus origin - medial epicondyle of humerus - interesting.


Edited by keyboardklutz (12/04/10 06:51 AM)
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#1569812 - 12/04/10 07:00 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Okay, fair enough. I'll basically take your word for it, although I recall that you said that trumpeters use the lumbricals. Specifically, what means that can they do so, while you deny that pianists can?

Anyway, you said on a previous thread that you agreed with this:

"However, all that really matters about an approach is whether you can play difficult pieces with ease and comfort. Anything that does not contribute to that is purely academic."

What matters in this case is not the anatomical details, but what leads to healthy and efficient movement. If the lumbricals are not the biggest power source, it's of interest to hear that. However, it really doesn't trouble me with regard to any practical issues- especially if the difference cannot be perceived, as you say. Even if knuckle actions are more based on tendons, I'm still more than happy to believe the widely held ideas both that actions within the last two joints are more conducive to tendonitis and that such actions are an inefficient means of applying power. Actions from the knuckle better involve the arms mass, whereas scratching actions are inherently more dependent upon a "held" arm and divorced finger actions. I certainly do not believe that it is right to encourage anybody who has suffered tedonitis to scratch keys from those joints, rather than activate from the knuckle.
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#1569832 - 12/04/10 08:26 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
apple* Offline


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this information is very handy.

thanks kbk
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#1569852 - 12/04/10 09:07 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Okay, fair enough. I'll basically take your word for it...If the lumbricals are not the biggest power source, it's of interest to hear that.
No need to do take my word for it - here's Tubiana:


Now that's the first page (google won't give the second). The last column is Tension fraction (%) (got missed off). Lumbricals don't do too bad at Mean resting fiber length when you consider in Mass and Tension fraction they're at the bottom of the next page. They range from 0.1 to 0.2!




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#1569859 - 12/04/10 09:32 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Well, great, a load of abstracted numbers. Even if they are not the power source, is it not significant that action via the knuckles is at least aided by something? That's without even going into the mechanical issues of why isolating the last two joints is not terribly productive. As I say, it's interesting to be aware of what you say, but I'm not seeing any practical consequences or implications about technique from this. If I'm using strong and healthy action from the knuckles, what generates that is of solely academic interest- unless it informs me of something specifically that would benefit the movement. If there is some specific hidden practical issue that you feel is raised by this, could you clarify what that is?
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#1569860 - 12/04/10 09:36 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Also, could you answer my question that you omitted within the (...)?

"I'll basically take your word for it, although I recall that you said that trumpeters use the lumbricals. Specifically, what means that can they do so, while you deny that pianists can?"
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#1569867 - 12/04/10 09:45 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Also, could you answer my question that you omitted within the (...)?

"I'll basically take your word for it, although I recall that you said that trumpeters use the lumbricals. Specifically, what means that can they do so, while you deny that pianists can?"
If you read the OP you'll know that the lumbricals help flex the proximal joints and extend the other two - fine for trumpeters and real flat fingering pianists (real flat fingering being playing on the proximal phalange).
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#1569868 - 12/04/10 09:50 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Kreisler Offline



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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Also, could you answer my question that you omitted within the (...)?

"I'll basically take your word for it, although I recall that you said that trumpeters use the lumbricals. Specifically, what means that can they do so, while you deny that pianists can?"


I think the answer is a bit obvious - the valves are not in contact with the fingertip. From kbk's description, the lumbricals just don't work the same way at the nail joint as they do at the knuckle joint. They're not comprehensively responsible for the cupping of the hand and fingers, just the part of the cup at the bridge of the hand.
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#1569869 - 12/04/10 09:50 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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"If you read the OP you'll know that the lumbricals help flex the proximal joints and extend the other two - fine for trumpeters and real flat fingering pianists (real flat fingering being playing on the proximal phalange)."

I'm sorry but that reveals nothing to me as to why you feel this is possible for trumpeters but not for pianists. I use such actions extremely often, especially with my fifth finger.
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#1569876 - 12/04/10 09:57 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
I'm sorry but that reveals nothing to me as to why you feel this is possible for trumpeters but not for pianists. I use such actions extremely often, especially with my fifth finger.
Aren't flat finger pianists pianists?
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#1569880 - 12/04/10 10:03 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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??? You just introduced the term "flat fingered pianists". Why are you asking me that question rather than yourself? In any case, I use a variety of different movements in different situations- very frequently including that which describe. Sorry, but I cannot follow your point about why the lumbricals are supposed to be impossible, or where any practical consequences might come via thinking about this when moving.
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#1569881 - 12/04/10 10:05 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
They're not comprehensively responsible for the cupping of the hand and fingers, just the part of the cup at the bridge of the hand.
And from what Timins above says those 1 in 5 people whose lumbricales originate in the carpal tunnel should be careful about cupping their hands. There's probably evidence for that 'abnormality' in the heart line.
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#1569882 - 12/04/10 10:07 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
??? You just introduced the term "flat fingered pianists".
No, I introduced the term flat finger pianists. The OP mentions 'flat finger technique'.
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#1569883 - 12/04/10 10:09 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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So, you're telling me that I probably don't really use them and that nobody can really tell whether they do or not. But now you're saying that some people should be careful not use a movement that DOES use them? Where is the consistency in that?
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#1569884 - 12/04/10 10:10 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
??? You just introduced the term "flat fingered pianists".
No, I introduced the term flat finger pianists.


Thankyou for correcting my inadvertent correction to your grammar upon quoting you. Can we return to the point now?
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#1569885 - 12/04/10 10:11 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
So, you're telling me that I probably don't really use them and that nobody can really tell whether they do or not. But now you're saying that some people should be careful not use a movement that DOES use them? Where is the consistency in that?
You'll need to point out where I say that.
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#1569891 - 12/04/10 10:24 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Okay, I see from your other post that you were saying it's "unlikely" that they are the source for jazzwee, rather than that it's impossible. Apologies for misattribution. However, if you say it's difficult to distinguish the between different types of action from the knuckle, I'm still wondering where the practical consequences come into this? Why not just get with making a healthy pull from the knuckle? If we need to bear these things in mind for a specific reason, what is that reason and how does it inform better movement? Where does thinking about this translate into consequences?
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#1569894 - 12/04/10 10:29 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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One aspect that comes out of Timins' paper is that for those 1 in 5 willfully contracting all the lumbricals constantly whilst playing to form a 'strong' hand could well have a serious deleterious affect. These 1 in 5 have lumbricals that start within the carpal tunnel.
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#1569901 - 12/04/10 10:45 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Okay, fair enough. I wouldn't have been seeking to do so for any reason in the first place, although that does add to many other reasons not to.
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#1569916 - 12/04/10 11:05 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzwee Offline
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So let's explore this further. I'm glad to be the experiment here.

I had hand surgery for trigger finger. Now understand that those big giant tendons are not affected by the surgery other than for making sure they move freely through the tendon sheath.

But my grip, post op, was weak for a year. The incision was 1 inch long under my 3rd finger. If in fact all the power comes from the tendons, then my grip should have been unaffected.

A grip shape is essential for playing technique. Although they may have not incised any muscles on the inside, I betcha that they used spreaders of some sort to open up that 1 inch incision so they reach the tendon sheath easily. So they would have stretched the intrinsics in the area and caused some short term damage there.

Isn't this perfect for isolating the issue of the role of intrinsics?

My way of measuring this was that I play this "grip" game with my boys. I see who can grip hardest. Post surgery, my grip was perhaps 10% of normal. At 6 months it was 50%. Now my grip is MUCH stronger than before the surgery.

What changed here? It can't be the arm muscles. My LH grip hasn't changed much (again a bilateral test).
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#1569934 - 12/04/10 11:27 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Here's Tubiana again:
Quote:
...Certain grips require only a simple hook formed by the fingers, which is controlled by the powerful digital long flexor and extensor muscles. They have more stamina than the intrinsic muscles, which control flexion of the metacarpophalangeal joints and adduction of the of the thumb, but tire easily. Thus, with fatigue, full closure of the hand around an object is transformed into a hook of the interphalangeal joints, and precision is lost. The intrinsic muscles assume increased importance when agility and precision are necessary; when the stress is on power, the extrinsic muscles become more important.
So no jazzwee, I have no answer for you. My only assumption is that pain, though you were unaware of it, was holding you back.


Edited by keyboardklutz (12/04/10 11:42 AM)
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#1569950 - 12/04/10 11:51 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzwee Offline
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But it does reveal that not everything is understood here.

Another side note. As technique has developed by hands remain in it's natural curved position more even after impact. Initially it collapsed more. So when key impact occurs, there's no real effort expended on a finger drop.

I'm sure every advanced pianist here must feel that. It doesn't require a lot of "force" to take and retain this shape. So there are aspects here that are affected by some intrinsic muscle development.
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#1569951 - 12/04/10 11:53 AM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzwee Offline
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kbk, no there was absolutely no pain. It was a feeling of weakness. I suppose another explanation is nerve damage too so I'm not discounting what you're saying completely here.
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#1569959 - 12/04/10 12:01 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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That your hand stays in position does not reflect any intrinsic work. The flexor/extensor relationship holds the shape. How long could you play for before getting fatigued after your op?
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#1569973 - 12/04/10 12:13 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
That your hand stays in position does not reflect any intrinsic work. The flexor/extensor relationship holds the shape. How long could you play for before getting fatigued after your op?


Interesting. So what explains the firmness in one's hand shape after playing piano a long time?

No fatigue post op that's different from any other day. But I didn't have the power to play stretched chords on the RH. Essentially, anything that required a grip was difficult. Single finger action was fine.
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#1569975 - 12/04/10 12:15 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
That your hand stays in position does not reflect any intrinsic work. The flexor/extensor relationship holds the shape.


You state that as fact but I doubt very much if there is any basis for doing so. Based on the descriptions of the lumbricals' action it strikes me as common sense that when they are more developed, the knuckles are substantially less likely to collapse. Just the slightest involvement would play a role in resisting collapse and development of such muscles might help to resist collapse on a purely passive basis. What reason do you have to casually state that that they are uninvolved, in such a matter of fact way?

Have any of your sources specifically studied pianists? Very few other activities are comparable in terms of how often such actions might be used. i don't think you can write something off based on an average hand.
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#1569982 - 12/04/10 12:21 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Wow. This is kind of asinine. I really don't think piano playing is as freakishly complicated and scientific as you're all making it out to be. Jeez. If you teach 5 year old beginners and you're trying to develop good habits from them from a young age, are you really going to try with all these different things? Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........

Maybe it's just me? I never think of such extreme implications. Anyway, carry on.
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#1569990 - 12/04/10 12:27 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Pogorelich.]
eweiss Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Maybe it's just me? I never think of such extreme implications. Anyway, carry on.

It's not just you.
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#1569991 - 12/04/10 12:28 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Pogorelich.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........
I'm afraid the mechanics are that complex. You're lucky, the brain deals with it on a pre-conscious level (until you damage yourself).
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#1569993 - 12/04/10 12:30 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Agreed. Personally I'd say that understanding how to move comfortably from the knuckles is all you need to worry about for this aspect. I'm not currently seeing any benefits or practical differences that derive from worrying about the physiology.
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#1569995 - 12/04/10 12:32 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........
I'm afraid the mechanics are that complex. You're lucky, the brain deals with it on a pre-conscious level (until you damage yourself).


Well so far I've managed not to damage myself. And considering my repertoire, I think I'm safe..


Edited by Pogorelich. (12/04/10 12:32 PM)
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#1569999 - 12/04/10 12:33 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........
I'm afraid the mechanics are that complex. You're lucky, the brain deals with it on a pre-conscious level (until you damage yourself).


The mechanics are rather simple. The simplest basis for technique involves reducing the number of variables, by setting up a two-sided support system where the finger moves the key and the arm provides counterforce through passive actions- followed by a state of ongoing balance at both ends. It's only complex if you make it complex by adding too many variables- eg. employing muscular efforts around the wrist and elbow and having to cope with the countless changes in state that must follow.
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#1570008 - 12/04/10 12:50 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Based on the descriptions of the lumbricals' action it strikes me as common sense that when they are more developed, the knuckles are substantially less likely to collapse.
Met with the considerable resistance of piano keys, whatever strength they do have won't last long.
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#1570012 - 12/04/10 12:53 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
The mechanics are rather simple.
This is where you go wrong. If you actually read about the hand rather than wait for me to post, you'd know differently.

End of the lesson, I think.
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#1570024 - 12/04/10 01:14 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Frozenicicles Offline
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For practical purposes, I agree with this:
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Wow. This is kind of asinine. I really don't think piano playing is as freakishly complicated and scientific as you're all making it out to be. Jeez. If you teach 5 year old beginners and you're trying to develop good habits from them from a young age, are you really going to try with all these different things? Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........

Maybe it's just me? I never think of such extreme implications. Anyway, carry on.

But if you're determined to be theoretical, I agree with this:
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
The mechanics are rather simple.
This is where you go wrong. If you actually read about the hand rather than wait for me to post, you'd know differently.

End of the lesson, I think.

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#1570041 - 12/04/10 01:31 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yeh, I can go with that. For players, think of it as simple, no fixing less'n it's broke! It's different for teachers.
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#1570049 - 12/04/10 01:36 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
The mechanics are rather simple.
This is where you go wrong. If you actually read about the hand rather than wait for me to post, you'd know differently.

End of the lesson, I think.


I read your post. What I FEEL when moving my fingers in what I perceive as being simple actions IS simple. So I do not need to worry about those complexities. My brain has covered them, thankyou. By doing a lot of very slow movements away from the keyboard I have learned the lowest effort for different types. That is all you need. When you interact with the complexity of EXTERNAL forces that you need to maintain as much simplicity as possible. The fewer the variables the easier it is.

A "Hitler salute" uses countless muscles but is felt as a simple action. Why would we need to make that complex when it simply doesn't need to be?

This is not where I am "going wrong" but precisely where I am going right. By turning a complex jumble of previously intricate interdependent issues into a simply premise of pulling with a finger and supporting/releasing at the shoulder (keeping both elbow and wrist 100% supported without internal efforts), my technique has been transforming itself beyond recognition. This part IS simple. The finger acts, aided by the passive existence of the arms weight and then maintains the balance it arrived in. It's inherently simple- compared to an intricate web of rapidly fluctuating fixations and intentions of instant releases.
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#1570053 - 12/04/10 01:39 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Based on the descriptions of the lumbricals' action it strikes me as common sense that when they are more developed, the knuckles are substantially less likely to collapse.
Met with the considerable resistance of piano keys, whatever strength they do have won't last long.


I do not fight the resistance of the piano keys head-on, as you do. I use the absorption of loosened joints, not ones that stiffen and then try to release before impact.

Get yourself a powerball if you're worried about strength. Compared to that, moving a piano key feels like moving your finger through a piece of sponge. You just have to be conscious of how to redirect spare energy.

As for fixing unless something is broke, are you telling me that your videos illustrate the epitome of piano technique? Perhaps you're settling for what you can do within your limits, but as far as I'm concerned, until something like the Liszt Sonata is extremely simple to play (rather than merely manageable) my own technique is certainly "broke". I intend to go on fixing it for as long as it takes.
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#1570056 - 12/04/10 01:42 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Pogorelich.]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Wow. This is kind of asinine. I really don't think piano playing is as freakishly complicated and scientific as you're all making it out to be. Jeez. If you teach 5 year old beginners and you're trying to develop good habits from them from a young age, are you really going to try with all these different things? Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........

Maybe it's just me? I never think of such extreme implications. Anyway, carry on.

Speaking as someone trained in human anatomy and with an advanced degree ha .....and who was interested enough in the subject to take electives in hand surgery, I agree with you in terms of any practical standpoints for 99% of us, 99% of the time. Regarding the other 1%, I'm just not sure.

Let them do this stuff. It looks interesting -- to them at least. smile

And you never know what might come of it -- as long as they keep their heads on straight and don't try to make more of any finding or factoid than is merited, which unfortunately people in that field usually tend to do.

Frozenicicles: I see that you said basically the same thing, but more efficiently. smile

Nyir: I think that you and KBK have been conducting this quite well, considering your differences. Let me add that you don't seem to realize that when you keep referring so prominently to what you experience, you are reinforcing the point that many of us speak of: that the teachings coming out of such work don't necessarily apply to everyone. You're getting it very much from your own personal experience, which is how it usually is for this kind of work. The findings and teachings could be valid for the author himself, but not necessarily for pianists in general. To the extent that much of the mechanics (you would probably say "all") is pure fact, there is still the issue of the extent to which those aspects are important, in the context of all the other mechanics that are involved -- and there are always more than any given analysis deals with.
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#1570060 - 12/04/10 01:49 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

A "Hitler salute" uses countless muscles but is felt as a simple action.
Godwin's law already?
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#1570062 - 12/04/10 01:52 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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That's just the example I always give for this. It uses an intricate combination of a number of muscles in very precise coordination but is felt as one singular action. No implications are to be drawn from that reference. It just illustrates the fact that some complexities have no practical consequences. When looking at what is perceived, the simpler the better (as long as it does not overlook important factors in order to be simple). That is very much the basis of my own model- contrary to the assumptions that a number of members are eager to leap to.
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#1570064 - 12/04/10 01:58 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
To the extent that much of the mechanics (you would probably say "all") is pure fact, there is still the issue of the extent to which those aspects are important, in the context of all the other mechanics that are involved -- and there are always more than any given analysis deals with.


True. The basis for my model however, is that consistent two-sided balance of a series of freely supported joints (except at the extremities) always contains considerably less intertwined variables than one sided balance with constant fluctuations of state. It also contains substantially less internal efforts for stable balance to occur. I believe that is fully factually verifiable.
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#1570066 - 12/04/10 02:01 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
True. The basis for my model however, is that two-sided balance of a series of joints always contains considerably less intertwined variables than one sided balance with constant fluctuations of state. It also contains substantially less internal efforts for stable balance. I believe that is fully factually verifiable.

Thanks for the nice reply -- but let me say that this brief and nice reply shows one of the problems with much of your work: even though you're speaking to someone with more of a relevant background than probably 999 out of 1000 readers, I have little idea what you're talking about, and to the extent that I can make something of it, it seems overly dogmatic and simplistic.

(Yes -- both too complex and too simplistic at the same time.)

I think people with any less background just won't get it at all, and those with more background will find much that they disagree with.
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#1570073 - 12/04/10 02:11 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
True. The basis for my model however, is that consistent two-sided balance of a series of freely supported joints (except at the extremities) always contains considerably less intertwined variables than one sided balance with constant fluctuations of state. It also contains substantially less internal efforts for stable balance to occur. I believe that is fully factually verifiable.
Bit short on the facts though? Not that I get any of it either.
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#1570074 - 12/04/10 02:12 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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That's why I'm writing it up thoroughly on the blog and using diagrams to illustrate. Check out the end of my most recent post, where I establish the concept. You seem interested in discussing the merits of my intentions aplenty, but I still haven't heard any thoughts from you regarding the actual work in progress. Something that is horizontally outstretched from a fixed point cannot keep free hinges stable unless supported at the other end. In one way support Each hinge must be stabilised, or they will collapse. Simply balance at the other end, and the hinges are supported for "free".

That such a simple and obvious premise is not used as standard for explaining HOW to release the wrist and elbow is beyond me. And no, kbk. That is not short on facts.
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#1570075 - 12/04/10 02:13 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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I'd be nice if you cited some references in your work.
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#1570076 - 12/04/10 02:14 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I'd be nice if you cited some references in your work.


Try any book about mechanics. It is an absolute. Not opinion. There is no disagreement upon the fact that a system of joints that is supported by two ends does not require fixation of any of its joints. That's why a chain that is anchored at two ends is stable, as long as it is kept taut. Neither does anyone have the opinion that a series of free joints can be extended horizontally without collapsing- unless added forces hold it together (ie. tensions at the elbow and wrist). That is why a chain falls to the ground when supported from a single point.

Do I really have to sound like a conspiracy loon for stating something so mind-boggling obvious?
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#1570080 - 12/04/10 02:19 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Frozenicicles Offline
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kbk and N, it might be nice if you two actually thoroughly examined each other's work out of professional interest rather than trying to disprove each other. As Mark has said, you may find that your techniques are not mutually exclusive - you are also approaching them from vastly different theoretical grounds. Anyway, I don't think there's anyone else on this forum who is as motivated to wade through all this theory as you two...I considered reading all this in-depth, including reviewing my physics and anatomy, but I have other things I'd rather do (and should do).

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#1570081 - 12/04/10 02:23 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Try any book about mechanics.
That's got to be the poorest citation I've ever encountered!
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#1570082 - 12/04/10 02:23 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Frozenicicles]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
.....As Mark has said, you may find that your techniques are not mutually exclusive....

Yes -- and, to give proper credit, I was largely following up on what Kreisler said on another thread.
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#1570084 - 12/04/10 02:26 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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I'm not portraying anything as mutually exclusive. I'm explaining the base level of the simplest and lowest tension means of movement. I use countless variations- even fixation of the arm once in a while- if I deliberately want a really rough, percussive tone for an occasional effect (quite handy in the Horowitz Carmen Fantasy). However, I don't believe that any pianist in history has ever acquired even a remotely professional technique without some basis in being able to use this style of low-effort balance. There's no other way I can conceive of to play rapid legato without strain and uneveness. Such things require consistency, not perpetual instability.
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#1570087 - 12/04/10 02:30 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Try any book about mechanics.
That's got to be the poorest citation I've ever encountered!


You're asking me to find a book that proves that 1 + 1 = 2. I believe there is one using sets, but I'm not going to waste my time. I literally mean ANY book on foundation mechanics. Unless written by complete idiots, the laws have not differed for hundreds of years. Citations are for matters of opinion, not for facts.

If you want proof of what I say, fix a chain to the wall and see if it will stay out horizontally or not- without each successive link having to be fixed to the next one, instead of free. Then connect a chain to two ends (spaced the length of the chain) and see if it hangs without collapsing or not.

If you want proof such a stupidly simple premise then buy a chain.
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#1570093 - 12/04/10 02:36 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
If you want proof such a stupidly simple premise then buy a chain.
The first half of the sentence I get - I can see why you have no sources.
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#1570097 - 12/04/10 02:44 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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I have no sources because mechanics is fact. Were I to waste my time writing the full proof, you would not understand it without any background in the subject. I do not appreciate such tedious, flippant sarcasm. Do you ask a mechanical engineer for "sources" too? Do have any interest in the subject matter- or simply in trying to discredit me with empty spin?

If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing.

If you are not prepared to further this with anything other than the absurd request for sources, please do not waste my time. I should be asking you for your sources of how a structure of free joints can supposedly "hang" without internal efforts or a second point of support. That's an "opinion" that definitely would require a specific citation, if you'd like to attempt to promote it.
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#1570099 - 12/04/10 02:45 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Mark_C Offline
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Nyir: Before getting mad and telling him not to waste your time, please realize that he's the main person here -- probably the only -- with whom you have any chance of getting somewhere. The rest of us are either left behind, turned off, and/or largely uninterested.
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#1570102 - 12/04/10 02:49 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
I have no sources because mechanics is fact. Were I to waste my time writing the full proof, you would not understand it without any background in the subject.
The whole point of citations is you don't need to write full proofs - others have done much of the work.

Facts are not science - as the dictionary is not literature. ~Martin H. Fischer
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#1570105 - 12/04/10 02:54 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Funnily enough, mechanics is based on using your OWN application of fundamental laws- which others have done. Those laws are in every textbook of foundation mechanics, as I told you. Surprisingly enough, not every single possible mechanical scenario has been written out in a text book. I'm not being drawn into such a ridiculous attempt to divert this from the subject- and neither am I spending my time preparing a detailed model of forces that you would be clueless about.

If you're so skeptical, get yourself a chain and start preparing those photos for me and find me your own source of how free joints can "hang" in a one-ended system of support, as you claim. If your mind is even slightly open (and you're actually interested in the subject matter rather than in arguing a predetermined idea at all costs) you'll stop to ask yourself why its impossible to do make a chain do that and what implications that has about an arm at a keyboard...

This is not a political forum where we can put a nice spin on our favourite politicians and a negative one on opposing sides. We are discussing absolute laws that determine possibility in piano playing. If you're only interested in trying to discredit my argument with flippant remarks, there is nothing to be gained for anybody. If you're interested in learning more about what is physically possible at a piano, try looking at what I have to say with an open mind.
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#1570111 - 12/04/10 03:02 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Well, just don't expect to be taken seriously if you can't supply your readers with the appropriate references. I can't think of one non-fiction volume or paper I own or have ever seen without them - unless it's autobiography!
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#1570114 - 12/04/10 03:08 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Sorry, but this is really pathetic. You'd sooner try to discredit me by asking to me prove mechanical facts (in detail which you would never understand) than bother to think about the implications of my practically illustrated point regarding a chain?

I'll say once more:

If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth.
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#1570118 - 12/04/10 03:11 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
.....unless it's autobiography!

....and pretty seriously, that's a lot of the answer right there.

Nyir: You seem to be trying very hard to be responsive and reasonable, and I think on this thread you've done pretty well at it. But it seems that you're not realizing some limitations of what you're doing -- and what KBK just said is actually very relevant to those. While indeed you're dealing a lot with hard science, you don't appreciate the extent to which much of it involves subjectivity and selectivity, much of which comes from one's own experience, and which in your case has a very strong underpinning from that. I don't know how much KBK might have intended this as a specific hint, but it's right -- your material seems to be much in the nature of 'autobiography.'
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#1570119 - 12/04/10 03:11 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Asking for sources is hardly pathetic - supplying them is de rigueur! if you wish to be taken seriously.
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#1570124 - 12/04/10 03:15 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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"I can't think of one non-fiction volume or paper I own or have ever seen without them - unless it's autobiography!"


Perhaps that's because you have never read one on mechanics. Do you believe that every law of foundation mechanics is cited in mechanical papers? Stop fooling around with this irrelevant and ill-informed nonsense and keep it to the subject please.

I'm going to keep repeating this as long as you keep trying to change the subject, instead of dealing with the issue:

"If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth."
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#1570126 - 12/04/10 03:19 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
"I can't think of one non-fiction volume or paper I own or have ever seen without them - unless it's autobiography!"


Perhaps that's because you have never read one on mechanics.
What? There are books on mechanics with no citations? You have led a sheltered life.
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#1570132 - 12/04/10 03:33 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Maybe if I illustrate: yesterday you were convinced that the intrinsics were strong muscles. Today you aren't. Now is that because I kept on telling you this? Or is it because I supplied such good references that you had no choice but accept it?

No it's your turn convince me.
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#1570133 - 12/04/10 03:34 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
What? There are books on mechanics with no citations? You have led a sheltered life.


Elementary laws of mechanics do not require citations. They are accepted. I did not say that mechanical papers have no citations. However, they do not need to cite every fundamental law of foundation level mechanics. There is no dispute over them.

I'll repeat myself once more:

"If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth."

and if you have nothing better to offer than sarcastic attempts to change the subject and discredit me, rather than further the topic (as you have done over a number of successive posts now) I will be reporting you and seeing how the moderators view it.
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#1570135 - 12/04/10 03:35 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Mark_C Offline
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It doesn't help you look smart to keep copy/pasting the same thing over and over -- regardless of your reason.

A little less persistence would probably help you. smile
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#1570138 - 12/04/10 03:38 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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If I get a credible follow up to that point, rather than a flimsy attempt to discredit it, I'll stop repeating it. When kbk can produce a photo of a chain doing what I asked him to, then I'll consider the possibility that the mechanical laws are in error.
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#1570141 - 12/04/10 03:40 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Maybe you missed this:
Maybe if I illustrate: yesterday you were convinced that the intrinsics were strong muscles. Today you aren't. Now is that because I kept on telling you this? Or is it because I supplied such good references that you had no choice but accept it?

No it's your turn convince me.
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#1570143 - 12/04/10 03:43 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
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I'll repeat this part again first, in direct response to your attempt to change the subject.

"Elementary laws of mechanics do not require citations. They are accepted. I did not say that mechanical papers have no citations. However, they do not need to cite every fundamental law of foundation level mechanics. There is no dispute over them."

classical mechanics have been established for hundreds of years.

and I'll repeat this once more, to remind you of the point that you are trying to change the subject from:

"If you have the slightest interest in discussing what is and isn't physically possible in piano playing (rather than in argument for its own sake) you'll ask yourself why you cannot produce a photo of a chain doing what I have asked you to make it do. A human arm cannot do that either. The onus is you to prove that you can defy mechanics, not on me to prove a simple truth."

If you have a point of relevance to make then make it. Stop trying to tell me to prove established mechanics and start proving how YOU supposedly defy it.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570145 - 12/04/10 03:46 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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I don't think you get it. You convince people with the authorities you can call on just as I convinced you. There's no other way.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570147 - 12/04/10 03:48 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If you don't believe me then do this and prove that I'm wrong:

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Trying to duck the point is of no use to anybody here. If you do not have anything to contribute then stop trying to change the subject and simply do not contribute.

Personally, if I reach a point in an argument where I have no credible follow up, that is where I stop and rethink.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570149 - 12/04/10 03:50 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I don't think you get it. You convince people with the authorities you can call on just as I convinced you. There's no other way.

I am completely neutral in this debate and I happen to like both kbk and N! However I must chime in here and say that there is another way to get at truth: experiment. You do not need an authority to tell you that if you drop an apple from some height on this planet it will drop to the ground.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1570150 - 12/04/10 03:51 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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It took an authority to write about it!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570151 - 12/04/10 03:52 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Yes, precisely. The man who claims it will not drop is the man who is required to make a proof- hence:

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Show me that a chain can do that and I'll believe that an arm can "hang" at piano without a point of support at the finger.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570154 - 12/04/10 03:55 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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OK Prof, start experimenting! Though no doubt you're re-inventing the wheel.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570160 - 12/04/10 04:04 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
OK Prof, start experimenting! Though no doubt you're re-inventing the wheel.

I already did the gedanken experiment. smile
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1570163 - 12/04/10 04:06 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Seriously, you ever seen any experiments without sources?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570165 - 12/04/10 04:09 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
If you are so determined not to think then keep changing the subject. Alternatively, try this experiment:

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Are you seriously more interested in trying to ask me to prove the law of physics that proves the above impossible than THINKING about the implications of what know full well to be impossible? You'd seriously sooner hope to push this fact of nature aside to promote a predetermined argument than think about it?

Personally I have no predetermined views on piano technique. If I did, I'd have views similar to your own. However, I threw all those beliefs out after I realised that they were not working and that neither did they stand up to rational scrutiny.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570168 - 12/04/10 04:12 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Just remember, I changed your mind using a scientific method. It works! It is how I work.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570169 - 12/04/10 04:15 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Indeed. That's what people with open minds do- they think and reevaluate based on evidence. Perhaps you could open your own mind enough to wonder why you cannot do the impossible scenario with the chain, and ask yourself how that translates to the arm?

Or are you too busy asking me to reevaluate the accepted laws of physics?
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570171 - 12/04/10 04:17 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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And where's your evidence?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570176 - 12/04/10 04:23 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
My evidence is in EVERY book of foundation level mechanics. I seem to recall having already mentioned that on a number of occasions. Now where is YOUR evidence?

Once more:


"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

This is not going away.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570178 - 12/04/10 04:24 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Indeed. That's what people with open minds do- they think and reevaluate based on evidence. Perhaps you could open your own mind enough to wonder why you cannot do the impossible scenario with the chain, and ask yourself how that translates to the arm?

Or are you too busy asking me to reevaluate the accepted laws of physics?

If you're talking about Newton's laws, they are by no means absolutely accepted. They are more descriptors of how things tend to work than absolute laws which pertain to everything. Check out Einstein's theory of relativity.

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#1570179 - 12/04/10 04:25 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Frozenicicles]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles

If you're talking about Newton's laws, they are by no means absolutely accepted. They are more descriptors of how things tend to work than absolute laws which pertain to everything. Check out Einstein's theory of relativity.


Have they ever changed the following scenario?

"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

Classical mechanics is still widely accepted in practice for good reason. Mechanical engineers don't tend to involve a lot of Einstein- because they don't need to. I'm not aware of anything in Einstein that might allow for the idea of a chain of free joints that supports itself at one end.
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570180 - 12/04/10 04:26 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
My evidence is in EVERY book of foundation level mechanics.
In that case I suggest you start quoting one.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570182 - 12/04/10 04:27 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
My evidence is in EVERY book of foundation level mechanics.
In that case I suggest you start quoting one.


Once more:


"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

This is not going away. There is not going to be any end to my repeating this point other than you RESPONDING to that point or not replying. I've already told you that I am not going to prove that 1+1=2. The onus is on you to prove that it isn't.

_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

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#1570188 - 12/04/10 04:36 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Godwin's law is never wrong!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1570189 - 12/04/10 04:37 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Once more:


"If you dispute that then get a chain that is attached at two points that are at a distance of the chains length. Then show me that chain dropping to the floor. Alternately, attach a chain at one end only and show me a photo of it being supported horizontally without collapsing."

This is not going away. There is not going to be any end to my repeating this point other than you RESPONDING to that point or not replying. I've already told you that I am not going to prove that 1+1=2. The onus is on you to prove that it isn't
_________________________
http://pianoscience.blogspot.com/

Top
#1570193 - 12/04/10 04:48 PM Re: A Lesson in Lumbricales [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I think I'll end on a fun note. Here's just the kind of senario I wish to avoid:
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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