Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner A Lesson in Lumbricales

Okay, fair enough. I wouldn't have been seeking to do so for any reason in the first place, although that does add to many other reasons not to.

So let's explore this further. I'm glad to be the experiment here.

I had hand surgery for trigger finger. Now understand that those big giant tendons are not affected by the surgery other than for making sure they move freely through the tendon sheath.

But my grip, post op, was weak for a year. The incision was 1 inch long under my 3rd finger. If in fact all the power comes from the tendons, then my grip should have been unaffected.

A grip shape is essential for playing technique. Although they may have not incised any muscles on the inside, I betcha that they used spreaders of some sort to open up that 1 inch incision so they reach the tendon sheath easily. So they would have stretched the intrinsics in the area and caused some short term damage there.

Isn't this perfect for isolating the issue of the role of intrinsics?

My way of measuring this was that I play this "grip" game with my boys. I see who can grip hardest. Post surgery, my grip was perhaps 10% of normal. At 6 months it was 50%. Now my grip is MUCH stronger than before the surgery.

What changed here? It can't be the arm muscles. My LH grip hasn't changed much (again a bilateral test).

Here's Tubiana again:
So no jazzwee, I have no answer for you. My only assumption is that pain, though you were unaware of it, was holding you back.

But it does reveal that not everything is understood here.

Another side note. As technique has developed by hands remain in it's natural curved position more even after impact. Initially it collapsed more. So when key impact occurs, there's no real effort expended on a finger drop.

I'm sure every advanced pianist here must feel that. It doesn't require a lot of "force" to take and retain this shape. So there are aspects here that are affected by some intrinsic muscle development.

kbk, no there was absolutely no pain. It was a feeling of weakness. I suppose another explanation is nerve damage too so I'm not discounting what you're saying completely here.

That your hand stays in position does not reflect any intrinsic work. The flexor/extensor relationship holds the shape. How long could you play for before getting fatigued after your op?

Interesting. So what explains the firmness in one's hand shape after playing piano a long time?

No fatigue post op that's different from any other day. But I didn't have the power to play stretched chords on the RH. Essentially, anything that required a grip was difficult. Single finger action was fine.

You state that as fact but I doubt very much if there is any basis for doing so. Based on the descriptions of the lumbricals' action it strikes me as common sense that when they are more developed, the knuckles are substantially less likely to collapse. Just the slightest involvement would play a role in resisting collapse and development of such muscles might help to resist collapse on a purely passive basis. What reason do you have to casually state that that they are uninvolved, in such a matter of fact way?

Have any of your sources specifically studied pianists? Very few other activities are comparable in terms of how often such actions might be used. i don't think you can write something off based on an average hand.

Wow. This is kind of asinine. I really don't think piano playing is as freakishly complicated and scientific as you're all making it out to be. Jeez. If you teach 5 year old beginners and you're trying to develop good habits from them from a young age, are you really going to try with all these different things? Music is art, not science, and the mechanics behind it aren't THAT complex........

Maybe it's just me? I never think of such extreme implications. Anyway, carry on.

It's not just you.

I'm afraid the mechanics are that complex. You're lucky, the brain deals with it on a pre-conscious level (until you damage yourself).

Agreed. Personally I'd say that understanding how to move comfortably from the knuckles is all you need to worry about for this aspect. I'm not currently seeing any benefits or practical differences that derive from worrying about the physiology.

Well so far I've managed not to damage myself. And considering my repertoire, I think I'm safe..

The mechanics are rather simple. The simplest basis for technique involves reducing the number of variables, by setting up a two-sided support system where the finger moves the key and the arm provides counterforce through passive actions- followed by a state of ongoing balance at both ends. It's only complex if you make it complex by adding too many variables- eg. employing muscular efforts around the wrist and elbow and having to cope with the countless changes in state that must follow.

Met with the considerable resistance of piano keys, whatever strength they do have won't last long.

This is where you go wrong. If you actually read about the hand rather than wait for me to post, you'd know differently.

End of the lesson, I think.

For practical purposes, I agree with this:
But if you're determined to be theoretical, I agree with this:

Yeh, I can go with that. For players, think of it as simple, no fixing less'n it's broke! It's different for teachers.

I read your post. What I FEEL when moving my fingers in what I perceive as being simple actions IS simple. So I do not need to worry about those complexities. My brain has covered them, thankyou. By doing a lot of very slow movements away from the keyboard I have learned the lowest effort for different types. That is all you need. When you interact with the complexity of EXTERNAL forces that you need to maintain as much simplicity as possible. The fewer the variables the easier it is.

A "Hitler salute" uses countless muscles but is felt as a simple action. Why would we need to make that complex when it simply doesn't need to be?

This is not where I am "going wrong" but precisely where I am going right. By turning a complex jumble of previously intricate interdependent issues into a simply premise of pulling with a finger and supporting/releasing at the shoulder (keeping both elbow and wrist 100% supported without internal efforts), my technique has been transforming itself beyond recognition. This part IS simple. The finger acts, aided by the passive existence of the arms weight and then maintains the balance it arrived in. It's inherently simple- compared to an intricate web of rapidly fluctuating fixations and intentions of instant releases.

I do not fight the resistance of the piano keys head-on, as you do. I use the absorption of loosened joints, not ones that stiffen and then try to release before impact.

Get yourself a powerball if you're worried about strength. Compared to that, moving a piano key feels like moving your finger through a piece of sponge. You just have to be conscious of how to redirect spare energy.

As for fixing unless something is broke, are you telling me that your videos illustrate the epitome of piano technique? Perhaps you're settling for what you can do within your limits, but as far as I'm concerned, until something like the Liszt Sonata is extremely simple to play (rather than merely manageable) my own technique is certainly "broke". I intend to go on fixing it for as long as it takes.