Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#1571006 - 12/06/10 12:22 AM Common problem?
William A.P.M. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Ecuador
I recently came across this interesting case - not a first however. A student 14 years old who had several Chopin nocturnes, etudes and the 1st and 3rd ballades in his repertoire.

In my first meeting with him, I was glad that I was helping an advanced student. He played the 2 ballades he knew and Chopin's 8th etude. The problem was evident immediately: he wasn't technically equipped to handle the difficulties in any of these pieces!

My issue here is not him per se or his study habits, but the teacher(s) who gave him these pieces without providing him with some good quality excercises for his fingers. One of the first things I put him under were the 1st 6 studies in Hanon's method book. He handled the 1st 2 studies with mediocrity and he severely lacked evenness, and he crashed with the following 4 studies, pretty much giving up.

I've decided to put him under much-needed Hanon and now the mom complains I'm taking him a step back. This is very dis-heartening for me but the truth is I don't want him to be under the impression that his sub-mediocrity is perfectly fine, or that he should even be tackling these pieces. According to him he would've been playing Chopin's 4th ballade very soon. And how?!!!

Is Hanon the usual solution for anyone else who might have had a student like this?

I mean - my problem put very simply in this way:

A kid playing Chopin's 1st ballade (or 3rd ballade) who has no awareness of tempo, can't play legato, overuses the pedal and lacks the technique to execute the work(s) properly(????). What kind of teacher lets this go on?

Top
(ad) My Music Staff
Check out the new way to manage your music studio
#1571020 - 12/06/10 01:01 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
You could try turning some of his Chopin into exercises.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1571029 - 12/06/10 01:45 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
I don't think Hanon is going to cure much of what's wrong.

I think a TRUE and complete step back, chucking the big pieces out the window and doing music that he can actually play well, is absolutely going to happen. If you volunteer to be the one to do it though, you may quickly get dumped for another teacher.

I would say Mozart sonatas, Bach fugues, and other real music that is impossible to fake, would do him much more good than Hanon - which is more boredom than it's worth IMO.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

Top
#1571036 - 12/06/10 02:06 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: david_a]
William A.P.M. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Ecuador
Thanks for the advice David.

The "impossible to fake" is certainly what I'm going for, and Mozart or Bach can do that. It's his fingers, PERIOD. They're not trained at all. He probably couldn't play 'Fur Elise' evenly.

I just don't want this hurting the reputation I'm beginning to acquire since I live in a private community where this could all turn against me. I have several students.

The mother is very proud of her son's accomplishments but she didn't like the idea of him moving back a step. She takes it that I'm just slowing him down when he is in fact very talented. AND there's no way on earth he could fix half the mistakes in his repertoire. I hope he likes the idea of Bach or Mozart, or surely this kid will quit and the mom will be happy. =(

Top
#1571038 - 12/06/10 02:12 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
In that case go for Mazurkas.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1571097 - 12/06/10 06:31 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
It's time to go back to basics. Scales and arpeggios every day without fail. I was going to suggest some Brahms exercises but those are beyond him. Czerny exercises - not the 51 we're used to seeing, but the lesser known ones - are fun to play and can be very musical.

I'm sure the mom is very proud, but the reality of the situation is that if something isn't done now, someone else will be much more rude to her in the future. Explain that her son needs to shore up his basic skills and make a comparison with any great athlete or musician that regularly goes back to his roots. Michael Jordan spent hours practicing dribbling and simple jump shots knowing that those two skills at the highest level would allow him to do greater things. Time and time again, concert pianists start from the beginning and rebuild their technique. Every few years, I hear, Murray Perahia returns to scales and arpeggios and rebuilds his technique with them. He practices only scales and arpeggios.

Liszt believed that in order to become a master at piano, one had to practice technique - scales, arpeggios, octaves, trills - for hours a day. I think it was some ungodly number like four. So in the end it is no big deal to go back to the basics. The challenge is (some reverse psychology here) how well her son will be able to handle it. If he's truly gifted and dedicated to piano, he will understand the value of these exercises and devote his time to practicing the foundations of piano playing.

I'd couch this with some talk about general musicianship activities such as theory, sightreading, ear training, basic composition, and see how well that goes over.

Best of luck!
_________________________
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina

Top
#1571128 - 12/06/10 08:23 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Remember that recent "comparisons" thread. smile

Well, now may be the time to give mom a cold shower. Compare her son to students who have a proper technical foundation. Do it in a clinical, matter-of-fact way that avoids judgmental tone. You may lose them, or you may convince them. Better to lose them now if they are untrainable. If you convince them, you will have more willing partners for whatever remedial approach you take. You win either way.

BTW, I like Hanon for finger dexterity if used judiciously. But I agree that you may face attitude problems in telling an older student to begin such 'basics.' Scales and arpeggios are also basics, but it may be easier to convince student and mom that they are part of the arsenal of any serious musician.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#1571148 - 12/06/10 08:56 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Sviatoslav Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 97
Loc: Italy, Torino
I don't think it'a an issue about "which" exercise is the best to "treat" his technical problems.
It'a all about awareness: you believe the guy needs technical work, mom and son don't.

I think you mentioned a few nice examples of what he cannot accomplish: make them listen to something on par and compare it with his performance (may a recording can do the trick).
If they recognize the difference you have a totally new student probably willing to improve; if they don't you have a clear sign that the son is probably untrainable.


Edited by Sviatoslav (12/06/10 08:56 AM)

Top
#1571240 - 12/06/10 11:50 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: Sviatoslav]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3160
Originally Posted By: William A.P.M.

My issue here is not him per se or his study habits, but the teacher(s) who gave him these pieces without providing him with some good quality excercises for his fingers. One of the first things I put him under were the 1st 6 studies in Hanon's method book. He handled the 1st 2 studies with mediocrity and he severely lacked evenness, and he crashed with the following 4 studies, pretty much giving up.


You have provided the solution in your above quote.

Have him play Hanon #1 in front of mom, and then you play it. Explain that the first few Hanon exercises are very basic, and that a student with 6 months of study should be able to do them easily, perhaps hands separate, but like you did, much better than this boy.

The fact that he could not even do the first one, which is basically a simplified scale, without errors and very unmusically indicates that the he has not been properly prepared, and that the only way you can help him is to take him back to the beginning and rebuild / build a proper foundation.

As others have said, you might lose him, but what is your option? To keep him you will battle and struggle, and likely not get anywhere. As Sviatoslav wisely said above, it is an awareness of the deficiency issue that is foundational to any progress.


_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

Top
#1571367 - 12/06/10 03:03 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I disagree with your assessment of this student and your handling of him. You're doing it strictly by the book (he doesn't have "foundation" and thus you're giving him "foundation"), which seems to justify your approach. That's easy way to handle it, but this calls for much more flexible approach, in my opinion.

First of all, putting him on Hanon studies is not going to give him the foundation for the Ballades in no time. Anyone should be able see that. What I would do is to work with what you've got, so to speak. He can play the ballades, at least in some measure (and of course he's not going to sound like Arrau at this point). So work with that. Let him keep working on them, using repetition and time to smooth things out. With patience, and time, the ballades should fall in place under his fingers.

Top
#1571386 - 12/06/10 03:21 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: Gyro]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Gyro
I disagree with your assessment of this student and your handling of him. You're doing it strictly by the book (he doesn't have "foundation" and thus you're giving him "foundation"), which seems to justify your approach. That's easy way to handle it, but this calls for much more flexible approach, in my opinion.

First of all, putting him on Hanon studies is not going to give him the foundation for the Ballades in no time. Anyone should be able see that. What I would do is to work with what you've got, so to speak. He can play the ballades, at least in some measure (and of course he's not going to sound like Arrau at this point). So work with that. Let him keep working on them, using repetition and time to smooth things out. With patience, and time, the ballades should fall in place under his fingers.
We know that this method takes ten years for ONE piece, and that not up to a good standard either. Your method is what the boy has already been doing, and we see the results.
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

Top
#1571410 - 12/06/10 03:57 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
,


Edited by Piano*Dad (12/06/10 08:06 PM)
Edit Reason: Post to which I was responding was deleted
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#1571424 - 12/06/10 04:14 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: Gyro]
Chopinmaniac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 65
I agree with Gyro on this one. simply asking the kid to go back to scales, arpeggios, Czerny, and Hannon is the easy way out, it is usually what the less competent teacher will do -- they go by the book.

A competent teacher should be able to create customized exercise regimen specific for the repertoire at hand. The kid is 14, he should have no problem reaching an octave with ease, so physically, he should be able to play anything.

If the kid and his mom think his playing is so awesome, let them listen to or watch how the best play the same pieces, maybe they will be humble enough to go along with the remedial program.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/tyj1020

Top
#1571501 - 12/06/10 05:59 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: rocket88]
William A.P.M. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Ecuador
Originally Posted By: rocket88
Originally Posted By: William A.P.M.

My issue here is not him per se or his study habits, but the teacher(s) who gave him these pieces without providing him with some good quality excercises for his fingers. One of the first things I put him under were the 1st 6 studies in Hanon's method book. He handled the 1st 2 studies with mediocrity and he severely lacked evenness, and he crashed with the following 4 studies, pretty much giving up.


You have provided the solution in your above quote.

Have him play Hanon #1 in front of mom, and then you play it. Explain that the first few Hanon exercises are very basic, and that a student with 6 months of study should be able to do them easily, perhaps hands separate, but like you did, much better than this boy.

The fact that he could not even do the first one, which is basically a simplified scale, without errors and very unmusically indicates that the he has not been properly prepared, and that the only way you can help him is to take him back to the beginning and rebuild / build a proper foundation.

As others have said, you might lose him, but what is your option? To keep him you will battle and struggle, and likely not get anywhere. As Sviatoslav wisely said above, it is an awareness of the deficiency issue that is foundational to any progress.




I'd like to thank everyone for their comments and help. Very appreciative.

It's 18:00 over here and the lesson was over an hour ago. I am still his teacher. =)

Getting more information on what kind of things he was asked to prepare for lessons, not once did I hear scales or anything that might resemble a method book for building up technique. I played several passages of the 1st ballade for him so that he also understood and observed what he is doing wrong, not because he's a bad pianist but because he hasn't obtained the sufficient agility and/or dexterity in his fingers to achieve a higher degree of fluidity.

It'll be Hanon exercises 1-6 for about a month until his fingers start showing serious improvement. I followed someone's advice of something like Bach or Mozart and my student happily accepted claiming he had wanted to do a piece like that for some time.

I think I'll be able to help him out and also help him polish up his repertoire for his satisfaction. I just don't understand what kind of teacher ignores technique?!!! I'm sure nobody here gives any of their students advanced pieces just to show him/her off as their student. Despite his accomplishments with 2 of Chopin's ballades, they remain way past his technical ability. As a student I must've done Chopin's complete nocturnes before I even dreamt of wanting to do the 1st ballade. My teacher was highly aware of what I could and couldn't do, and I'll try to follow that example.

Top
#1571551 - 12/06/10 07:16 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
I'm sure nobody here gives any of their students advanced pieces just to show him/her off as their student.


I must admit, I fail to see how an abysmal performance of a technically challenging piece would "show off" a student in a way that would benefit a teacher.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#1571556 - 12/06/10 07:41 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: Piano*Dad]
William A.P.M. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Ecuador
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
I'm sure nobody here gives any of their students advanced pieces just to show him/her off as their student.


I must admit, I fail to see how an abysmal performance of a technically challenging piece would "show off" a student in a way that would benefit a teacher.


Me neither, but surely I can't think of many reasons why a teacher would do that. In retrospect, I remember perceiving that in my teacher when I was barely a teenager when for a concert she was dying to have me perform last, which meant that I was performing the most difficult piece. Lucky for me, I didn't make a fool of myself trying to learn something much harder and opted for a much easier nocturne by Chopin. The Schubert impromptu the girl played at the end was way* out of my league. So afterall I do believe some teachers push their students too much, especially when these concerts/recitals become about whose student is the most advanced. I knew my teacher was one of those, but she didn't push me too much, luckily.

Top
#1571563 - 12/06/10 08:06 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: Chopinmaniac]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Chopinmaniac
I agree with Gyro on this one. simply asking the kid to go back to scales, arpeggios, Czerny, and Hannon is the easy way out, it is usually what the less competent teacher will do -- they go by the book.


Are you saying those posters who made such suggestions are "less competent"??

When Czerny first took Liszt as a student, he made Liszt play nothing but scales and technical exercises...for TWO YEARS!
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1571686 - 12/07/10 12:24 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
You are justified in having him do Hanon and some other exercises (you could try the Jazz Hanon if you want to make this more interesting for him harmonically and if you want to involve all keys and hand orientations). Maybe try giving him some pieces from Mikrokosmos (again, more interesting harmonically). However, kicking out those pieces that he's been playing will be received well neither by the student nor by the mother. What you can do is, you can work on one of them, two measures at a time, at each lesson. Maybe you'll have him play that ballade much better in 4-5 months from now along with having him do the basic technical exercises, scales and arpeggios if you allocate time wisely (do just 10 mins of the ballade.. 2 measures should take 10 minutes of explaining and demonstrations. Move on only if he perfects those for the next lesson and make sure he memorizes the connections with the previous measure and the succeeding measure, so that you teach him how to memorize effectively along the way). Strictly instruct him NOT to play at speed. Have him play it at an extremely slow tempo. Tell him never to try out what he just practiced at speed to "see" what it sounds like. Just a few suggestions.. wink
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

Top
#1571709 - 12/07/10 01:21 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
molto_agitato Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 162
Loc: Washington State
William, I'm just curious, but what does your student think about his playing? I realize his mother believes he is immensely talented, but does your student hold the same opinion? Unless I missed it in this thread, I didn't read any indication that the mom and son have the same high opinion of the son's playing. Is it possible he realizes his current skills are woefully inadequate to conquer the pieces his previous teacher assigned? Perhaps he realizes this, and desperately wants to improve his basic skills, but, as he apparently hasn't had a decent teacher until now, he doesn't know how to go about doing so.

Top
#1571797 - 12/07/10 07:22 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11682
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: William A.P.M.

... but surely I can't think of many reasons why a teacher would do that.

One reason is staring you right in the face. Student and mother were convinced that he was advancing and advanced. Everyone's happy, right? frown - what a wonderful teacher who can make his student "advance" so fast. How wonderful everyone is. If a student does notice that his later pieces can't be brought to sounding decent, he won't know why he's struggling. I mean who would know that when you are "advanced" the solution lies in what you should have gotten in the beginning, while under the guidance of a teacher? Why would anything be missing? It is close to a betrayal of trust. As student I am glad you are doing this.

Top
#1571843 - 12/07/10 08:27 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: Chopinmaniac]
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: Chopinmaniac
I agree with Gyro on this one. simply asking the kid to go back to scales, arpeggios, Czerny, and Hannon is the easy way out, it is usually what the less competent teacher will do -- they go by the book.

A competent teacher should be able to create customized exercise regimen specific for the repertoire at hand. The kid is 14, he should have no problem reaching an octave with ease, so physically, he should be able to play anything.

If the kid and his mom think his playing is so awesome, let them listen to or watch how the best play the same pieces, maybe they will be humble enough to go along with the remedial program.


You know, I gotta say it: I'm offended. I am not a "less competent" teacher. Scales and arpeggios are a very necessary part of any pianist's practice regimen whether they be beginners or advanced. Everyone does scales, myself included, and I'd hardly say any of my teachers were incompetent.
_________________________
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina

Top
#1571902 - 12/07/10 10:08 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Minaku,

I suspect it was more of a thoughtless toss-off thing to say, and not a malicious jab. Like me, Chopinmaniac seems to be a parent and not a teacher. Don't get too bent out of shape.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#1571904 - 12/07/10 10:11 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: keystring
One reason is staring you right in the face. Student and mother were convinced that he was advancing and advanced. Everyone's happy, right? - what a wonderful teacher who can make his student "advance" so fast.


That would suggest a teacher who did not care about reputation, or did not understand it.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#1571916 - 12/07/10 10:30 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Scales, arpeggios and Hanon are useful tools. When I get a student like the one described, I use them a lot, at first, because they are usually easy enough that the student doesn't have to think about the notes, but can think about what their body is doing and how they sound while playing.

It isn't a matter of textbook at all. It's a matter of creating the opportunity for the student to become self-aware and to retrain some basic technical gestures and listening skills.

I also choose short repertoire that uses these skills, pieces that can be learned relatively quickly and put aside once the main goal is met.

I have never had a problem telling both parent and student exactly what I see needs to happen. They have to be on board. I also remember that the student needs plenty of encouragement along the way.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1571929 - 12/07/10 10:44 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I'm not sure where the idea the student doesn't know his scales and arps came from - if it's so it isn't good. I certainly don't see why Hanon's called for, poor sod!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1571930 - 12/07/10 10:46 AM Re: Common problem? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Minaku Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 1226
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Minaku,

I suspect it was more of a thoughtless toss-off thing to say, and not a malicious jab. Like me, Chopinmaniac seems to be a parent and not a teacher. Don't get too bent out of shape.


You're right, P*D. I think I was just surprised that someone agreed with what was clearly awful advice.
_________________________
Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina

Top
#1572002 - 12/07/10 12:37 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I'm not sure where the idea the student doesn't know his scales and arps came from - if it's so it isn't good. I certainly don't see why Hanon's called for, poor sod!


I use certain Hanon exercises to teach basic physical gestures like wrist flexibility, rotation and weight transfer. I don't just make them play the exercises. They do portions of them with purpose, not mindless repetition. Not having to concentrate on the actual reading makes it easier to concentrate on the important stuff. Once they have these down, we move on to Czerny 8-measure exercises, again not all of them, just certain applications. They are short and musical and make thejump to repertoire more successful.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1572006 - 12/07/10 12:41 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: Minniemay]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5486
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Czerny 8-measure exercises

What's the opus number for these?
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1572056 - 12/07/10 01:59 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: AZNpiano]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Op. 821
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1572079 - 12/07/10 02:48 PM Re: Common problem? [Re: William A.P.M.]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I'm skeptical that any standard technical studies--Hanon, Czerny, etc.-- will do any good in this situation. The technical problems in the ballades are essentially unique to them and no technical studies are going to really apply--that is, no one wrote any technical studies specific to these ballades. In particular, I'm skeptical about Czerny. My impression of him is that his studies are essentially worthless in real word situations. He apparently did a great job of promoting himself, using the fact that he was taught by Beethoven and then taught Liszt briefly, to his advantage. He churned out tons of technical studies, all different--just the dilution effect alone here would call them into question--and they sold well, given his carefully cultivated reputation, and made him a rich man. But they apparently were written with profit in mind more than anything else and are of questionable value, at best.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Postings in this forum
by doremi
09/20/14 10:13 PM
Were these old Richmond Studio uprights any good?
by Paul678
09/20/14 09:18 PM
Ivories: To save or not to save
by chernobieff
09/20/14 08:26 PM
Are injuries the result of bad technique or over practicing?
by rov
09/20/14 05:44 PM
Learning M/m Key Areas in minutes: know the patterns!
by A443
09/20/14 05:32 PM
Who's Online
113 registered (aesop, 36251, accordeur, 37 invisible), 1099 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76260 Members
42 Forums
157653 Topics
2315671 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission