Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
86 registered (Anita Potter, Anne'sson, accordeur, Almaviva, anotherscott, 36251, 27 invisible), 1392 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 6 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#1582006 - 12/22/10 08:03 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 199
As I said...the moisture content percent of the wood is most definitely lower than the RH% of the air but they are directly related.

You can find lookup tables and calculators that can tell you what the EMC will be for a given type of wood in a specific relative humidity.

The ture measurement of whether or not a DC is maintaining a relative humidty of 42% is to measure what the DC is measuring when the humidistat turns t humidifier / dehumidifier on and off...relative humidity in the air.

Pitch stability is also directly related to the moisture content of the soundboard which is directly related to the moisture on content of the air. So, yes...no argument there (not a surprise) the pitch stability is what we are after.

Here's the rub...there are more variables that affect the pitch stability:
1. how much the piano is played and how hard
2. how old the strings are (new strings stretch more than old strings)
3. how loose the tuning pins are
4. There's probably more...you would know better than I

So my point is why not measure something that only has one thing influencing it vs. something that has several things influencing it. My problem is also that my pitch stability is lousy since I put my DC in...4 cents flat in 4 weeks. This is why I started testing the thing. (note that I haven't taken any pitch measurements since I have been experimenting.)

I'll give you another example to make my point clear. My uncle has a grand piano with no Dampp Chaser installed and his tuner is always impressed with how stable his instrument is. It is almost always within 2 or 3 cents. So I guess his Dampp Chaser must be working perfectly...oh wait...he doesn't have a dampp chaser.

Here's another example that I will will make up. If I buy a brand new piano with new strings and install a DC, do you think the pitch stability will still be perfect in 3,6, 12 months? I doubt it. So I guess I can conclude that the DC wasn't working. Nope...the strings were just new so they were stretching.

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1582024 - 12/22/10 08:42 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Hard playing will put improperly tuned/set strings/pins out if tune, but will not change the overall pitch of the piano. Loose pins will put individual notes out of tune, some more than others. But an expanding or contracting soundboard is what most influences pitch in a piano.

This is becoming a futile argument. Humidity affects pianos. Period! The more stable an environment, the more stable the piano. Period! This is not even debatable.


Ok, I feel better now. smile


Edited by Loren D (12/22/10 09:01 AM)
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

Top
#1582030 - 12/22/10 08:51 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Deleted with apologies.


Edited by Loren D (12/22/10 09:00 AM)
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

Top
#1582034 - 12/22/10 08:55 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: James Carney]
Rick_Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: James Carney
dcb, (Dampp-Chaser buyer? Dampp-Chaser buster? Doubting credible beliefs?) laugh
...........
Re: further research...It would be interesting to see more studies on wood and how the humidification of just one side affects it. But isn't it true that cut wood absorbs and desorbs mostly along the end grain anyway?

No- that's not the case-- wood will absorb water from any direction; if this were not the case, you would find it very difficult to apply stains and such things and have them penetrate... So, not "mostly", no-- it is certainly easier at the end-grains.

Originally Posted By: James Carney

Again, for me anyway, the alternative of not using a Dampp-Chaser based on "insufficient data" or unknowns is a much less appealing proposition than having one installed in a piano environment that goes from 24% to 60% relative humidity each year. That kind of humidity swing puts a lot of stress on glue joints and the wood itself, does it not? Plus we know that humidity changes can affect regulation, and even the tone of hammers.

This is an excellent example of what I face--- are you not saying by this that you wuold recommend a piano D-C system for just about anyone who opens their windows in for spring and summer air?-- as, merely opening your windows in the spring will shoot your ambient RH% from 23% to 60%...
This is why I want the verification from D-C!


Originally Posted By: James Carney

I also believe that the German pianomakers know more about wood than just about anyone, so if they recommend the use of the DC they must have a very strong belief in its benefits - and little concern about any potential destructiveness. And I would think that any negative side effects of DC use would have appeared by now, but that is just my opinion.

Again-- great minds don't always make for great thinking (I already mentioned Steinway's teflon age). So endorsement does not necessarily mean intelligence.


By the way, to ridicule DCB is not your answer either. Besides, I believe I am your target for those words, not him.
I've been in the business 10 years-(grew up around this business)--- my dad was in it for 40+ before we lost him...
These concerns are not coming from off the cuff--- nor from an average customer who may not understand the ins and outs.
_________________________
Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com

Top
#1582038 - 12/22/10 09:03 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I've exhausted anything useful I can contribute to this thread, and am getting cranky and sarcastic, so at this point I'm done. Good luck with it all! smile
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

Top
#1582044 - 12/22/10 09:14 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: Loren D]
Rick_Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I just bought 40,000 mile tires. I'm going to measure them every day and keep a running calculation so I can project if they are really only going to go 38,000. smile


You don't have to... It's been done-- you can get the consumer report on such things. smile They don't just say/insinuate/claim it will last 40,000 mi.- they prove it.

D-C's customers should not have to feel the need to do what DCB is doing...
-------

Now-- (clears throte)--- if I may take up page 7 of this thread? I didn't get to post this yesterday or last night.

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Mark, is your position then, that creating a whole room environment at the proper humidity level is superior than creating a microenvironment within the piano? I like to summarize things so I can keep on target. Would that be a correct summary?


That's not my entire position on D-C...but yes, you could summarize it like that, I suppose.
---------------------
We did get that email today from D-C.
I read their report--- actually it was an article for The Guild Journal by Don Galt, of only 1 page.
It dealt with a piano ("a 45" Studio of good quality") that was kept at Wash. University for nearly 3 years in the studio of its music building- being meither played, nor tuned during that time... This was Puget Sound-- indoor avg. RH 30-60%.
The RH% was recorded weekly from June-March.
To make a short report shorter-- it showed what we all knew-- that a piano is subject to widely varying humidity levels throughout the year.
Humidity levels on the chart were at their highest Dec.23-28 and Feb.-March (again Washington State-- i.e. rainy winters)...
Interesting enough, this report spoke nothing about D-C, except for the bold red banner at the top---- "The Piano Being Tested Was Not Protected by the Piano Life Saver System"...
The Data (again this is for the year):
C-52 varied on the chart from 9 cents sharp to 1 cent flat.
C#-29 12 cents sharp to 6.5 cents flat.
C-28 7 cents sharp to 1.5 cents flat.
They look at the variance overall I guess…and they note of course the bass break and how it varied so much more there.
Again- no surprise.
Notice the overall variance? In its natural environment, ranging 30-60% RH---- 12 cents off from the origin was the largest swing in a year.

My own note to go with this- it appears that the piano was not tuned before the test was taken. I think we know that a freshly tuned piano would hold a bit better than a piano that has been left to itself for say, 2 years and then recorded for the final year?
I set pins when I tune- as I'm sure many of you set strings...
Why? To get the tuning to hold better!
If this wasn't done before the test- we can assume that the variance might not have been quite so great. But- as it was- one year- 12 cents was the largest swing one way? Sounds like what I am experiencing.
But- again---- this proves nothing. Only that a piano in Puget Sound will fluctuate in its pitch due to humidity... This was somehow to get us to assume that IF this piano was "protected by a Piano Life Saver System" it would have performed much better. Perhaps it would-- there was no record of such made.

NOW- I'm frustrated with ALL of this topic, as it appears it is full of nothing but man's/woman's empty vain speculation (my own included).
I've come away with what I came.
(((Perhaps this is why you too are tired of the debate, Loren)))
I still have a sense that there is a very strong push to sell an item that has no verification that it can live up to what is 'insinuated'. Insinuation is not a guarantee- so I guess Dampp-Chaser is safe in that. But claims need supporting evidence (not opinion).

I'm far from sold. I'm sure I'll be looked at as closed-minded again for this. But- I cannot imagine another business or corporation on the market getting away with selling an item under such statements as have been made---- AND not being called to put forward evidence. To bring up your tires scenario- Firestone was torn into for 'insufficient testing'-- they tested and had results, but overlooked something.

Now, "doubling the life of a piano" (if this is truly a claim they make) is a silly statement to make. I could stand here and tell DCB that his piano's life will be seriously and permanently damaged. Does that make it true? Of course not---- BUT, I can prove it with just as many such tests. If I shout it loud enough and long enough, it still won't make it Truth. If I get innumerable people to join my shouting, still not truth.
So---- my stance with Dampp-Chaser is still unchanged…
Get some testing done and I'll give you my support----- when I see that the system doesn't do what my logic tells me it would over a long period of time--- that's when I'll change my opinion. This system costs a lot of money.

I do give my customers the options---- but, Loren, I ALWAYS push them to get the room controlled rather than the piano.
We both agree to this I'm sure. Only, I understand that spring through summer it's going to be open window time...the piano will go a little out---- this will be taken care of with the next tuning. ( By the way, isn't a piano with the system still getting tuned yearly?- does the customer actually get told that they now don't have to get it tuned as much- and scheduled so?)

When controlling the room RH can't be done---- AND, when I 'know' the piano is going to be seriously damaged from what is taking place--- I discuss the D-C as a possibility…Otherwise I do what was done for many, many generations before D-C came along--- I work with nature and the piano.

We've got another email in to D-C trying to get more…I'll come back to this topic (create a new post for you all)- if and when something meaningful comes up…You guys do the same for me- but please no more opinions to me as evidence...
And one more time here- I do not question that you guys have pianos that you see performing good right now (I have pianos I've seen performing the same as before the system- ie. the system not working).
I have never questioned any of your posts about your experience.
This has always been about verifying facts.

Thanks for hearing me out.
_________________________
Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com

Top
#1582066 - 12/22/10 10:13 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 199
Sounds like we are done. That's cool with me. I'd always rather be around passionate people with an opinion so I got something out of this conversation. I'm a very curious person and enjoy doing research and troubleshooting problems. I also like my piano to be fairly on pitch. This is why I want to make sure the humidty levels are right in my piano. (My piano playing sounds bad enough on a well-tuned piano)

I once bought some Michelin tires that were guaranteed to last 60,000 miles. they only lasted 50,000 miles based on Michelin's criteria so the company gave me a prorated amount of money towards my next set. I love Michelin tires and always buy them. The second set I bought lasted over 60,000 miles. I think they are a great company that makes a great product.

By the way, just to be clear once again. There is no debate and I have never said that humidity doesn't affect pitch. If I believed that, than why would I have ever purchased a DC? I go to bed at night feeling good about this because it is one thing we can all agree on.

Happy Holidays everyone.

Top
#1582072 - 12/22/10 10:28 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
I've been in the business 10 years-(grew up around this business)--- my dad was in it for 40+ before we lost him...


Nice. 10 years? Is that all? You're telling some of us who have been in it for 3 decades + times longer than you have that we're wrong and disagreeing with us on our personal views and findings? Hmmmmm.

Here's my family history.

My grandfather started my business in 1926. My father took it over him and was in it for 55 years. He built it up to the point where he also tuned, serviced, installed and sold pipe organs and tuned and serviced pianos. Full time, of course. Dad had two brothers who were in it full time one working with him, one working for him.

I started tuning after school when I was 12. I'm 54. I've been in it counting all of that for 42 years, or, 36 years full time tuning on average 1,000 pianos + per year. There is a lot of experience in my family history with pianos and Dampp Chaser systems. However, not that this matters but, I am "trying" to slow down a bit.

I have a cousin, my dads brothers son, who has also been in it for 37 years full time. With all of our knowledge and experience with these systems, working for colleges and many various other organizations, if one technician (YOU) is not willing to "apparently" take the word of ANY other technicians in this business, something is mighty screwy with this picture in my opinion.

Other technicians views are usually, "appreciated in here." You're new in town. There are and have been lots and lots of various posts in here regarding Dampp Chasers or Damp Chasers as some people spell them and lots of various contributions over time. Do a search and read up on some of them and their opinions.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1582086 - 12/22/10 10:42 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 199
I'm new to this forum so I don't know as much as someone who's been here longer, but I think these conversations would be more effective and civil if people focused more on the debate and observations vs people's credibility.

It's human nature to become defenisve when someone questions your opinion but debate is healthy. (I'm guilty of being defensive as well.)

I would encourage anyone who disagrees with my opnions or my testing to do their own testing and see what happens. It is pretty easy to test these things. Then we could have a really cool conversation about the results.

I would think you guys would enjoy experimenting and questioning conventional wisdom. Don't you experiement with tuning methods, voicing methods, etc?

This field is part art and part science. The art part makes one technician amazing when another one is just great. The science part can be measured and tested. I thought this was a perfect thing to try and test...so I did and continue to do so.

By the way, I have been logical and detail focused for 36 years. I am 5th generation of a very logical and detail oriented family and have a sister, many aunts and uncles who also share this approach. I even won a science fair in the 5th grade. (Just trying to keep this light...we should all get along and not take ourselves so seriously...)


Edited by dcb (12/22/10 10:46 AM)

Top
#1582093 - 12/22/10 10:59 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I have a nephew that can play "Dixie" with his armpit. Light enough for ya?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1582097 - 12/22/10 11:04 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 199
I'm not impressed unless he is in perfect pitch during all four seasons. The curious side of me wonders how it would be affected by his level of perspiration. I may start a new thread at www.armpitmusicworld.com to find out.

I know a guy over there who can play some Rachmaninoff pieces arranged for armpit like you woudn't believe.



Edited by dcb (12/22/10 11:05 AM)

Top
#1582156 - 12/22/10 12:50 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
As the competition in armpit music has increased, so has the temptation to cheat. Here are some inspectors looking for hidden speakers before an international armpit music festival:

_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1582211 - 12/22/10 02:33 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
I have been working on pianos for 30+ years and have installed many systems. I don't see a need to experiment with the system, because I see the result each year when I return to tune the pianos. Some people cannot accept the results in the field as proof the systems work, maybe they are unable to follow the instructions that come with systems and can't get the same results. The system needs to be left along for it, to do its job, but for some people this doesn't seem to be option. To bad the major piano manufacturer like Yamaha, Steinway, Kawai etc. recommendations don't count for some close minded people.But being the business for only 30 years I guess new comers know more than I.
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

Top
#1582244 - 12/22/10 03:18 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
What I sometimes tell folks is:

"The reason you spent all that money is specifically so that you DON'T have to get all involved in controlling the piano's humidity. It's an automatic system. You only need to change the pads occasionally and add water when the light blinks. That's it."

The OP does live in an exceptional climate. My own recommendation is this:

1) Since you are concerned about low humidity, purchase a room humidifier and run it in addition to the Dammp-Chaser. You can purchase units that have their own built-in humidistats. Set it somewhere between 40% to 45% and the leave it plugged in 24/7/365. Do not aim it at the piano.

2) Install a back cover.

3) Stop removing that bottom panel. Allow the Dammp-Chaser to slowly, carefully establish its own little micro-climate over a period of weeks inside the piano. There is a reason that the humidifier is low power. They could just as easily manufacture a higher power unit.

4) Rest easy and enjoy your piano. Take comfort in knowing that your instrument is now triply protected. We live in an imperfect world and you will have done all that reasonably can be done.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1582406 - 12/22/10 06:48 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Rick_Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Quote:
I've been in the business 10 years-(grew up around this business)--- my dad was in it for 40+ before we lost him...


Nice. 10 years? Is that all? You're telling some of us who have been in it for 3 decades + times longer than you have that we're wrong and disagreeing with us on our personal views and findings? Hmmmmm.


Wasm't trying to brag on my experience Mr. Groot... Sorry if you took it that way. I was trying to just demonstrate that it was not DCB who was calling D-C into question- but, rather me...
And I do know that I am not as experienced as a lot of you here in the forum. I do respect my elder professional's opinions- contrary to what you claim here (as I was taught from my youth to honor my elders)... But, sir- am I to take this as meaning that I am not allowed to have a differing viewpoint?
If you will recall- all I have done is ask for the company's proof. I understand that a lot of you have an aproval for this system--- I have NEVER questioned your findings, except to say it is not proof that my concerns are unwaranted.

That was an impressive family history--- but, sir, I am afraid that this still does not change what I see, and what I am concerned about.
With all due respect, 100+ years (1,000 years)-- it is still all opinion until proven.

As I said-- I am done with the debate until there is something more substantial that can be added... Family historys, experiences, and all such could be discussed for a very long time...and we would all still end up where we were at the start.
Again- thanks for hearing me out.


---- EDIT---- proof of my status as newcomer- don't know how to use the edit buttons LOL----- don't know if you can read the edit below DCB-- but, thanks for bringing this up (meant to say that in goodbye for now)...It's been interesting, even if unsettled as yet.
_________________________
Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com

Top
#1582436 - 12/22/10 07:36 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
But, sir- am I to take this as meaning that I am not allowed to have a differing viewpoint? If you will recall- all I have done is ask for the company's proof. I understand that a lot of you have an aproval for this system--- I have NEVER questioned your findings, except to say it is not proof that my concerns are unwaranted.

Rick,

A differing view point is one thing. Taking colleagues views, advice and experience on multiple Dampp Chaser systems and then poo pooing them as basically meaningless without further proof, is another thing and well, rather silly to me. Other colleagues views, advice and experience on something is also a part of our learning. Ignoring this by saying
Quote:
"With all due respect, 100+ years (1,000 years)-- it is still all opinion until proven."
makes no sense to me. Rick, experience in something = stats. Not everything has to be proven or put into writing. Sometimes, a persons experience with something is proof enough.

I would advise you to try letting the wisdom and experience of others in here teach you something. It will be of much greater value to you in the long run.

Generational history is meaningless unless something worth while is taught and passed onto others. We then, pass our experience and knowledge onto the next generation of technicians. That is, provided they are willing to listen and learn. However, If one technician will not accept what other "elder more experienced" colleagues have to say about something without "more proof" then it is highly likely that person may be totally on their own if they were to ask others for advice on anything else in the future.

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1582491 - 12/22/10 09:07 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 199
I discovered a product called Music Sorb.
www.musicsorbonline.com

Here is an excerpt from thier website.
"Music Sorb is a synthetic silica gel product developed by chemical engineers in Japan to help moderate and control the relative humidity (%RH) inside a given area, such as inside your piano or musical instrument case."

I like their website because it has their test results from testing. If I knew this product existed, I might have bought it instead of a DC. Of course ideally, someone would test both products and see which one worked the best.

I also discovered a piano technician named Mark Gallant in Oregon who is also a member of the PTG. You may not approve of him because he had done some testing on the musicsorb product and I found a presentation he gave. Here it is.

http://www.oppor-tune-ist.com/page/Humidity%20Control%20Alternatives_files/frame.htm#slide0006.htm

It looks like he might be suggesting that MusicSorb might be a good alternative to a DC and easier to install (5 minute installation)

What seems nice about MusicSorb is it is maintenance free and non electric. It's pretty interesting.

He states in his presentation notes that he thinks that technically the DC should do a better job but I don't know if he has tested it (couldn't find those tests) or if it was based on DC's claims.

I may call him up to talk to him. I like the fact that he is a guild member but also has some interest in controlled testing and thoughtful analysis. He might be an interesting person to add to the discussion.

By the way, I apologize if I'm telling you things that you already know.

Top
#1582508 - 12/22/10 09:42 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Rick_Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Maine, USA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT

Rick,
A differing view point is one thing. Taking colleagues views, advice and experience on multiple Dampp Chaser systems and then poo pooing them as basically meaningless without further proof, is another thing and well, rather silly to me.

Again- (and this is a pretty scary mind-set being revealed)- I did not do what you say... I merely asked for verification of the opinions and claims with 'proof'.

Might I remind people that history went through a period of time when Biblical "Opinion" was said to be "Truth". 'The Dark Ages'-- when Catholic Priests held the keys {people not even allowed to have a bible); while they taught their "opinions" as Truth...a time that still has not been overcome to this day.

We went through a time when men believed the world was flat- and a contrary view was insane (heresy in fact)...many elders agreed (though the Bible itself proves it is round Isaiah 40:22). And they scoffed at the man who held an opinion that it 'was round' and who wanted to prove it...

Group persecution has always been directed at the dissenting voice of opinion.
I am afraid that your mode of thinking is basically the same here. You basically say by this, 'young man, put away what you see and are worried about, and trust us'. And you offer your experience as proof. I respect your experience, but differ in my opinion of what the long term affects could be with this system.

Long experience means your opinions should hold more weight--- BUT, it does not make people automatically right. As the scripture says, "I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment."

You also present to me that- IF I do not accept it:
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT

However, If one technician will not accept what other "elder more experienced" colleagues have to say about something without "more proof" then it is highly likely that person may be totally on their own if they were to ask others for advice on anything else in the future.


I hope you can truly see what you ARE saying here.

Am I truly and justly to be ostracized- for holding an opposite "opinion". NOW- IF you would present FACT, then I agree- I should be ostracized if I did not accept that...

Again- to understand the difference between Truth and Opinion based on experience makes a huge difference in what our experience teaches us in the end.

NOW- IF I find an 'elder' that proves that he is seeking the truth- and treats opinions with a decent respect (no matter who presents it)-- it is that person I want to find and follow advice from. I had two when I was learning. Both the rebuilder I trained under (Roger, a PTG member himself), and my dad, were both very respectable in this area.
I miss them both.

I will say that typed words do not always come across as we mean them--- I want to be clear-- I respect your experience… I would like to have that history myself- it is honorable. But, history and experience (as history has proven) does not mean a person is automatically right.
_________________________
Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com

Top
#1582558 - 12/22/10 11:22 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Yes, I most certainly can see what I am saying... And I said it with some thought. But, you obviously can't see it and what's worse, is that you refuse to see it. Sad... The only proof that is good enough for you is stats on paper not words of experience or experience with installed units. You obviously have very little to NO experience with these units.

My college has LOTS of these units on pianos. They went from horrible pitch swings to barely ANY pitch swings. From being continually out of tune with our major weather swings to barely out of tune a month or 3 months later. That's proof. Oh, sorry, it's not on paper... Guess that won't work......

Ahhhhh forget it. You're to stubborn and pig headed.... Enjoy yourself in here... I'm done helping you or giving you any advice on anything in here period.

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#1582564 - 12/22/10 11:35 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
rysowers Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2505
Loc: Olympia, WA
Musicsorb. (sigh). Talk about lack of scientific research behind a product! I've never seen anything that would make me think that a piano with Musicsorb is any more stable then a piano with nothing at all.

I used to run a dehumidifier in my shop in an effort to keep the humidity at the mid 40 percent level. Every other day I would empty at least a gallon of water out of that thing. It became too much! So I gave up and stopped worrying so much (after all I live in one of the mildest climates in the country: The Pacific NW!). There is just no possible way Musicsorb can suck up enough H2O to get the RH down to the desired level. No way, no how.

It is MUCH more efficient to use the air itself as a drying agent by lowering its RH and moving it around. Much, much, more efficient. Maybe if you filled the entire inside of the cabinet with Musicsorb you might get some results, but then you'd really be "sorbing" the music! grin

Musicsorb (or the product that it comes from) was originally designed for using inside sealed cases for museum artifacts. In a sealed environment it might make sense. So perhaps using plenty of music sorb and then completely wrapping the piano in plastic wrap could be an effective solution. Of course it doesn't make playing the piano very convenient.

I was shown a "scientific looking" chart that showed fluctuating room humidity and then showed how the humidity inside the piano with Musicsorb fluctuated less. But there was no comparison to the inside of a piano without Musicsorb?! No control makes the "experiment" worthless. In fact worse than worthless because it's trying to make a case for something that can't physically work, and a few people buy into it.

_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#1582567 - 12/22/10 11:38 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
rysowers Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2505
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Yes, I most certainly can see what I am saying... And I said it with some thought. But, you obviously can't see it and what's worse, is that you refuse to see it. Sad... The only proof that is good enough for you is stats on paper not words of experience or experience with installed units. You obviously have very little to NO experience with these units.

My college has LOTS of these units on pianos. They went from horrible pitch swings to barely ANY pitch swings. From being continually out of tune with our major weather swings to barely out of tune a month or 3 months later. That's proof. Oh, sorry, it's not on paper... Guess that won't work......

Ahhhhh forget it. You're to stubborn and pig headed.... Enjoy yourself in here... I'm done helping you or giving you any advice on anything in here period.


Looks like Jerry needs a chill pill!

_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#1582568 - 12/22/10 11:39 PM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
Quote:
Might I remind people that history went through a period of time when Biblical "Opinion" was said to be "Truth". 'The Dark Ages'-- when Catholic Priests held the keys {people not even allowed to have a bible); while they taught their "opinions" as Truth...a time that still has not been overcome to this day.


Do we really have to put down other folks' religions? This is a technical forum.

Btw, before the printing press, Bibles were hand copied... very labor intensive. Bibles were quite expensive and not as easily available.


Edited by daniokeeper (12/22/10 11:41 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1582676 - 12/23/10 07:43 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I have not read the latest banter. It is always the same problem. Who is right verses what is right.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1582686 - 12/23/10 08:04 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: Rick_Parks]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 440
Loc: new york city
No one is being "ridiculed" or "targeted" as far as I am concerned. Just trying to interject a little fun and humor, which this conversation could certainly use. That's why I included the emoticon after my "initial" guesses. grin Hey, a pun!

This thread started out by asking professional techs to help troubleshoot a new DC install. But what it really has been is a forum to challenge the advertising claims and effectiveness of the Dampp-Chaser product.

That's why so many techs have jumped in, and a lot of great information and experience has been imparted to anyone following the thread.

I see the forest for the trees, and a stable piano is my goal. The proof is in the pitch...

Have a great holiday everyone...
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

Top
#1582692 - 12/23/10 08:34 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: daniokeeper]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Quote:
Might I remind people that history went through a period of time when Biblical "Opinion" was said to be "Truth". 'The Dark Ages'-- when Catholic Priests held the keys {people not even allowed to have a bible); while they taught their "opinions" as Truth...a time that still has not been overcome to this day.


Do we really have to put down other folks' religions? This is a technical forum.

Btw, before the printing press, Bibles were hand copied... very labor intensive. Bibles were quite expensive and not as easily available.



I'm with Joe here...lets not slip in collattoral attacks on religious grounds. Its shows us in a poor light, and its simply unfair to all the good folks who practice that particular faith.

RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

Top
#1582693 - 12/23/10 08:35 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Has Musicsorb a 60 year track record? Independent tests? I'm curious why Musicsorb's testing by a tech who sells it carries weight, while the same from Dampp Chaser is cast aside. A valid question, I think. If you're going to have an opinion about the reliability of internal test results, at least be consistent about it.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

Top
#1582697 - 12/23/10 08:45 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Rick_Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Maine, USA
I only say this, so that I can make it clear that I am not speaking from nothing (I do NOT care to compare experience history)--- I do have experience- having worked for 7 years under a PTG employer in MD and the DC area...where I installed (according to directions was a major focus there) these systems many times, and upkept them for the customers...

Stubborn and pig-headed and closed-minded... I will not respond to the name calling.

And- no more help or assistance from you--- I'm sorry you feel that way about this...but I think we are both better off for that decision, if this is the way you feel about things.

James, sorry if I took your humor as being serious.

I have nothing more to say-- anyone looking at this post will see what is going on here.

--------EDIT----
I was not attacking anyone's religion-- I was reciting history... Those things actually happened- and I am beginning to think are not too far from happening again!
I in no way referred to anyone's current religious practices--- my comment about the world suffering still from that period was meant to invoke thought toward why there are so many religions now out there all based on opinion rather than fact and truth...much as this forum.
I understand this is a technical forum- yet, comparing a mind-set to that of dark ages mentality IS NOT talking religion is it?


Edited by Rick_Parks (12/23/10 08:58 AM)
_________________________
Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com

Top
#1582698 - 12/23/10 08:45 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
I haven't weighed in here on Dampp Chasers. But I feel I should.

My experience with installing the units here in Michigan is that the pianos are WAY more stable pitch-wise. Jerry's comments are echoed almost exactly in my experience; that is, in my decades working on specific pianos here we have found that the Dampp Chaser system corrects the extreme swings in RH.

Now, does that pass muster as a scientific study or argument? I suppose I really don't care, since almost everything in piano science is anecdotal anyway...i.e. which temperment sounds better, how often should a piano be tuned, heavy action vs. responsive, grand vs. upright, etc etc.

Dampp Chasers make a GREAT case for themselves in much more stable pianos for my customers. Honestly, installing them is not my favorite activity...so although there is a profit margin, at 6-7 pianos average per day tuning I'd gladly stop selling/installing/servicing the things if they didn't work.

Again, many of the techs who have reported here are taking the long view, after decades of observation. Their wisdom is worth noting.

RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

Top
#1582700 - 12/23/10 08:52 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
dcb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 199
I repeated some earlier testing to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Here are my findings and they are consistent with previously.

1. I plugged my humidifier in directly and it went from 36% to 48% in about 1.5 days. This makes it clear to me that the humidifier is big enough to do the job and get the humidity above the 46% threshold for the dehumidifier to kick in.

2. I then removed the pipe insulation sealing the gap and the humdity started plummeting. 47,46,45,44,43% in about 5 minutes. I didn't want to let it go further so I stopped it at that point. This solidifies my conclusion that sealing the gap is the biggest improvement I could make. This intuitively makes sense and is consistent with Roger Jolly's testing if you agree that sealing the gap on a vertical piano is analogous to an undercover on a grand.

3. Now I am retesting the second humidistat DC sent me to see if it is calibrated differently than the first one. The first one seems to be calibrated from 37% - 33%. Ideally, it should be calibrated from 46% - 38%. (Note that my hygrometer is accurate to +/- 2%)

I think my conditions are pretty extreme with an ambient RH of 23% so in other installations, the sealed gap might not be as important.

If I decide I'm good with the 37% - 33% range, then the question will be how effective is the dehumidifier in the summer when I have ~65% humidity and 75 degrees F. If the dehumidifer can get it to the same range (37% - 33%) my pitch should be really good. However, if the dehumifier can only get it down to 50% then it might be off a bit. This is why it is important for me to get the humidity in the winter up to 42% because it is roughly the midpoint of my conditions.

Once this last test with humidistat #2 is complete, my testing should be complete until summer.

I found rysowers' critique of the MicroSorb product interesting. He stated that there was no control...I agree. I do applaud MicroSorb for publishing any testing when DC has not. Also, one might predict that a piano without MicroSorb's internal RH% would gain equilibrium with the RH outside the piano. I don't know this is for sure but I could test it. It would be very easy to test. Maybe someone without a DC installed could take the reading inside and outside to confirm. If my prediction is true, than maybe MicroSorb's "scientific looking" data chart might be something to consider as possible.

I sure hope everyone still shares knowledge with people regardless of their opinions. If all my mentors, teachers, and elders stopped teaching me things when I challenged their opinion I don't think I would have advanced past a kindergarten education. With no mentors or teachers I would be forced to take my own opinions as the only ones and I think I would be very close-minded.

Top
#1582701 - 12/23/10 08:52 AM Re: Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system [Re: dcb]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
The religious attacks; don't feed the trolls.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

Top
Page 6 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Making a New York Steinway sound like a Hamburg Steinway
by nphase
21 minutes 3 seconds ago
Merry Christmas from Brazil! Feliz Natal!!
by Piano_Brazil
Today at 09:19 PM
Rzewski: De Profundis
by pianoloverus
Today at 09:17 PM
Guide to skills level
by Gemgem
Today at 08:55 PM
piano with willie
by TonyB
Today at 08:25 PM
Forum Stats
77375 Members
42 Forums
160028 Topics
2349990 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission