This was just a thought that came to me last night. In America you got the supposed "big name pianos" in brands like Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Yamaha, Kawai. I wonder what kind of pianos are in the mainstream around the world. For example, in my trips to China I have seen plenty of Yamahas and Kawais, and several Pearl Rivers. However I have not yet seen a Steinway.

A couple of questions I had:

I wonder if, say, in Germany or Bulgaria the prevalent piano is something other than a Steinway? I ask this question because there are many good pianos made in Germany (Boesendorfer, Bechstein, Schimmel, Bluethner, for starters) whether Steinway would be considered "another drop in the bucket" type thought.

Is Yamaha as popular in, say London, as it is here in the States?

A curious question is whether Estonia is the most popular brand in the country Estonia?

Are piano buyers in Germany as curious about NY Steinways as some of us happen to be about Hamburg Steinways?

What are the most popular brands in places like Africa, or Australia, or Singapore?

Mikester,
While selling pianos in the Washington DC area, I sold a lot of pianos to Europeans. Most Western Europeans would mention Schimmel, Bechstein and Seiler. But, the East Europeans mostly grew up on Petrofs. Practically every one I met from Eastern Europe had heard of Petrof and had played one. It was their "dream" piano growing up. I met a couple from Bulgaria (the father was a technician, the daughter a piano teacher) who described Petrof as being the "Yamaha" of Europe. Their phrasing not mine. I imagine these people weren't exposed to the Bechsteins and the Bosendorfers.
That was my experience FWIW.

My experience here is just the opposite.

Regarding East Europeans - at least up to now - the last piano they seemingly like to own or show an interest in,is one of their *own*.

For one,it seems to bring back memories from unhappy times under communism as well as the often deplorable state of pianos in their prviously state owned conservatories.

Secondly, a lot of East Europeans really are on the *Western goods* bandwagen - once they establish themselves over here - and I often noticed - with some surprise to myself - how many couldn't even wait to run to the next Yamaha dealer and get a new piano there.

Something,which is perhaps now changing a bit more now, both, as some of the East Europeans who have already lived here for a while, perhaps try to re-discover their own traditional soul and the pianos of their homelands also having become greatly improved.

Re other countries I can only say that both Bechstein and Bluethner are still hugely respected in Great Britain and the Germans traditionally showing regional favourites to pianos built in their very own area of state.

norbert

In Germany, Steinway is also very dominant in concert halls. You also hear a Bechstein, Fazioli, or Bösendorfer sometimes, but Steinway is by far the most common one there.

In shops and especially in private homes the situation is very different. Yamaha and Kawai are also very well-known here, but in general, asian pianos play a much lesser role than in the US, I think. East-european pianos are hardly seen in piano stores and homes here (at least in western germany). Instead, most stores feature a variety of german brands. American brands (except Steinway) are non-existent, unfortunately.

Another difference is that baby grands, in particular very cheap baby grands, are only rarely sold here. Most "average" people buy uprights instead.

This is my impression, at least.

Klaus

"East European pianos are hardly seen in piano strores"......[/b]

I made that comment once here before and was almost driven out of the townhall.........

norbert :rolleyes:

It does not make much sense to argue about facts...I have shopped a lot[/b] in various stores here. Only one of at least 20 different stores had a single east european grand piano (Petrof), and the owner told me that they have this piano primarily to rent it for events where they fear that the piano would not be treated very well, like wild birthday parties

Perhaps Europeans are more interested in quality than prestige. That would be a good thing.

Norbert,
I'm not sure why we've had different experiences with Eastern Europeans. This could be the reason though I'm not at all sure but in the DC area many of the Eastern Europeans we sold to were diplomats, lawyers, artists, educators and other professionals. And I would have to say 8 out of 10 bought Petrofs.
Now with the Asian customers that's a different story. Especially with the Chinese. They definitely wanted to steer clear of anything manufactured in China. It was Yamaha at all times.

Hmm... I was about to guess that the best-selling pianos in Estonia the country is Petrof (going by regional proximity), then I read Norbert's post about Eastern Europeans shunning Eastern European products.

So... going by unit sales numbers, which is the best-selling piano in Estonia the country in recent years? Petrof, Yamaha, or some other Asian brand?

(I know it cannot be Estonia piano because Estonia the company doesn't make that many pianos and it has been exporting nearly all of its production to North America in recent years.)

As for Singapore, I'm guessing Yamaha. Though Singapore being a major metropolitan city, the Singaporeans do have access to many European pianos, and they have access to Petrof too. But they don't get NY Steinway or M&H or Charles Walter. Baldwin was probably popular there at one point, but probably not any more.

We should accept the simple fact that there are regional differences and at any rate - none of the observations made by anyone here *prove* anything.

And besides that - things are changing big time:

One of our 7 locations big competitor in this city is presently selling absolutely huge[/b] numbers of Seijung made "Hoffman & Kuhne" pianos - and very much so to the Chinese themselves!!

Besides that,peole are familiar with different brands the world over - not just pertaining to pianos.

With some people having also longer memories than others.

For example in Europe/Germany the whole Estonia ferry fiasko, where hundreds of people died in one incredible ferry sinking accident some years ago, is still very much on people's minds today.

So, mention an *Estonia* piano in Germany - and you can expect the same old discussion creeping up somewhere a long the line.....

People in Europe on the whole are also much less prone to *forget* 40 years of stark communism and the suffering it brought with it.

Add to that the very slow pace by which a whole population's mentality is expected to change overnight - and you may draw a few more blanks.... :rolleyes:

And why should the Germans,Italians, Austrians or French be expected to line up in droves to buy those products which have always been readily made at home - and very well - by the way!

Unless the products by others are not only *cheaper* but also satisfy their traditional need and sense of quality.

And that's a challenge for others to overcome - it's called by the way "economic opprtunity"

After all, something *good* and certainly to cheer about in our own capitalistic system!

norbert

Here's my East German perspective: Before the fall of the wall (in 1989) we basically only had East German pianos: Blüthner and Förster (both of a lesser quality then they are now) and the various PSO's that were produced by different factories that were all subdivisions of the "Deutsche Pianounion", some of the pianos were exported to North America so you might know the names: Niendorf, Zimmermann, Gerbstädt, Herrmann, Rönisch only to name a few. These pianos are still around and dominate the used market, among pre-World War II instruments (please keep in mind that the names I mentioned might have nothing to do with the instruments that are produced now using the same names).

Neighter Petrof nor Estonia are popular here, I would say they are hardly known even by professional musicians. None of these pianos were exported to East Germany, if any then at least not in great numbers. So you don't see them on stages nor in private homes.

On small stages you'd still find the old german names (because those pianos are really old!): Blüthner and Bechstein most of all. The big stages bought new, mostly Steinway and Bösendorfer, Yamaha is also very well known here. For instance the famous Gewandhaus of Leipzig has several Steinway D and Bösendorfer Imperial. The conservatory bought new pianos in the mid 1990ies, mostly Yamaha and Steinway, the Steinways are usually reserved for piano majors (who get the special keys to unlock those pianos).

I'm a bit sad that in the hometown of Blüthner this piano is not very present, neigther on stage, nor in the conservatory, there are only lot's of old Blüthner pianos around, some of them in very poor condition.

Most names which sound familiar to you are completely unknown here: Pramberger, Nordiska, Pearl River... Never seen such instruments, not on stage, nor in private homes. And you won't believe it: nobody, really nobody knows: Baldwin and Mason & Hamlin or Chickering. Never seen these American pianos over here. I have played some Baldwins in the US and liked them a lot, so next time I'll come the first thing will be: going to a piano store and ask for a Mason & Hamlin.

Last summer in Berlin I played an Estonia in a piano store, but this was the only Estonia in this room, competing against other fine German makes and some Bösendorfer pianos (BTW Mikester, Bösendorfer is made in Austria, not in Germany). I also had the chance to play a Yamaha S6 which was very impressive, but I haven't seen such a piano anywhere else except in that store.

BTW, when I speak of Steinway, I mean Hamburg Steinway. The only American Steinways I've seen so far were in America or were very old (made before the Hamburg plant was in production).

This is an interesting topic and there would be more things to write but this is a good overview.

Best regards,
Jens

Thank you ,Jens - excellent report!

Completely concurs with my own observation.

P.S. "Finkelstein" in Hannover does have a good number of Estonias, believe Opera house there actually bought 9' concert grand!

["Tropfen auf'm heissen Stein"..... ]

norbert

Jens,

Thanks for the West European (German) overview. It is remarkable how artists, students, and piano consumers across the various regions of the world, look at the same pianos. Although some may be oriented by "snob" appeal, I have seen nationalistic nuances (Asian vs. US vs. Western/Eastern European, German, French, etc.) as well as the role of marketing for a particular region. I enjoyed your insightful comments.

Gunther

Thanks, Jens. I very much appreciate what you wrote above.

Axtremus,

I'll bet there are few piano sales in Estonia...of any make.

It could well be. I have no idea how big the market for piano is in Estonia. Just curious about the statistics of piano sales in Estonia in general, and about which makes sell the most units there in particular (this is one of Mikester's question in his opening post).

(Apology to Mikester for going off a tangent.)

Now that I think about it more, I am also curious to know if there is any other country that produces pianos and export nearly all the pianos it produces. Could it be that Estonia is truly one of a kind in this respect?

Take any country that produces piano, and assign each an "export ratio" (defined as number of pianos exported devided by number of pianos produced), I wonder which countries might have the highest and lowest "export ratios."

Off the top of my head, I am guessing Estonia and Indonesia might have the highest "export ratio," while the United States might have the lowest "export ratio."

I would love to hear from those who have the statistics about this.

Other fun statistics and ratios that can be thought about on a country by country basis:

# pianos produced per capita
# pianos sold per capita
piano export revenue generated per capita
piano revenue (sold to domestic consumer) per capita
average unit price per unit sold
average unit proice per unit export
# pianos owned per household or per capita
# of hours of piano lessons per year per capita
piano instruction revenue per capita
average piano price to average income ratio
etc.

Just a bit of info on the Aussie market.

60- 70% of all new pianos imported here come from Japan (ie either Kawai or Yamaha). Yamaha has been the market leader pretty much since they arrived, but it has tightened up lately, and Kawai may even be ahead now.

Dividing up the rest of the new piano market would be Germany, China, Indonesia and a few others.

Steinway is the prestige brand here, although you can get Bosies, Bechsteins, Faziolis etc if you know where to look. Generally anyone looking to spend that kind of money just says "we'll buy a Steinway", which is disappointing really. Recently Kawai have sold a few concert grands following their Sydney Piano Competition success, which was good to see. Steinway really only sell to institutes and halls. Very, very few private buyers.

US pianos (except the Yamaha T116) don't get a mention here, due to the poor reputation earned 20 or more years ago. Regardless of how they may have improved, nobody is brave enough to bring them back.

There are only two piano builders in Australia AFAIK. Stuart & Sons and Ron Overs. Both are very small manufacturers. Ron started building his own in 2000(ish) and is about to build piano #s 7 & 8 this year. Don't know much about the Stuart piano as he's about a 2- 3 hour drive away, whereas Ron's about 30 minutes.

I'm sure I haven't answered all the questions, and I've probably confused someone, so feel free to ask if you have a question.

Greg

Singapore: predominantly Yamaha. Why Yamaha? Advertisements in the papers every other weekend. The entry model upright that is made in Indonesia seems to be very popular.

We have Hamburg Steinways, but they are ridiculously overpriced, as are many of the Tier-1 pianos. Apart from Steinway, the only models of grands in showrooms are those 6' or under (most people live in apartments less than 1300 sq ft). Most are very poorly prepped, including the Steinways. If one wishes to purchase a different model from the showroom piano, one would need to order one unseen, plus pay around a 50% deposit. The majority of European brands are carried locally, but no Estonia.

I have not heard nor seen any US brands here. There are many Chinese pianos that probably sell well due to the low price.

cps, Roxane,

Thanks for sharing. Really nice to read about the piano markets outside the US.

Jens, SoftwareResearch, Norbert,

Your observations match mine insofar as high-end pianos in Germany is concerned. Hamburg Steinways dominate the concert stage with an occasional Bösendorfer appearing now and again.

In dealerships and homes, there is a wider variety of pianos. My guess is Bechstein, Blüthner, and Grotrian-Steinweg are the dominant top-tier makers in terms of units sold. Steinways and Bösendorfers, though admired and respected, are expensive and rarely discounted from list price. Same thing for Fazioli.

German dealers do not sell American makes. One rarely sees new Petrof, Estonia, and the other eastern European brands in west German piano stores. They do carry Yamahas and Kawais, with the S-class and Shigeru lines considered good pianos for the money compared to top-tier European makes.

JP

May I just throw my oar in with particular regard to CPS in Sydney?
Perhaps one of the reasons why the only two manufacturers in Oz remain very small is because of poor exposure and/or awareness of their product and their attitude towards customers and potential customers. The last comment is especialliy pertinent to Stuart.
I am to visit my daughter in Sydney in May (she is resident there). I e-mailed Stuart to ask if I could visit them. My e-mail was thrown in the waste-bin! No reply, no comment, .............no interest???
Now, as it happens, I am contemplating purchase of a home in Oz to spend perhaps half the year there in my retirement. I can't tranship my beautiful (yes, I mean really beautiful) Samic baby grand each time I shall go and return to the UK, so I will have to have another piano for use in the antipodes.
It's not likely to be a Stuart after that treatment!
I could go on for hours about different peoples' interests in different brands. In most cases, with great respect, it is all based on personal preference, often on prejudice and certainly on lack of adequate knowledge - and I include myself amongst that.
Samickowner

Over in my part of the globe, Yamaha, Kawai mainly dominate the market. There are Samicks, Young Changs, Steinways, Bosies floating around but not to the extend of the Yamaha and Kawai...

Aren't the Stuart's made to order and astronomically expensive, as in more than Bosie and Fazioli?

Samickowner,

I've never met Wayne Stuart, so it wouldn't really be fair to retell the stories I've been told here. I could PM you if you like.

Kenny is right though, the Stuarts are ridiculously expensive. I'm not sure on how silly their pricing is, but it's very high. The Overs pianos are less expensive, but still around the price of a Yamaha S series or smaller Steinway. I believe that people spending that kind of money would want a brand name, both for prestige and for the "investment". AFAIK Ron has sold most of his pianos so far to institutes, such as the conservatorium of music, who wouldn't be as worried about "investment" value.

It's price more than anything holding them both back. Although I don't think either of them are really interested in becoming large scale builders anyway. They've both had their share of publicity, although certainly not near the level of the Japanese and German brands. Australia also suffers from the "cringe" factor, where we shun our own product because it's made here and can't be as good as the Japanese or German stuff. So I'd say it's the double hit of big price tags and a bit of the cringe factor. Just my opinion.

If you'd like some info on where to look for your retirement piano, let me know. I'd be happy to pass on names of the good dealers in Sydney.

Greg

To Kenny

Yes you are right, Stuarts are very expensive. They sound damned good though! I have the boxed set of nine CDs by Gerard Willems playing the Beethoven Sonatas. In my humble (and inexperienced opionion) most impressive!

To Greg

Many thanks for your offer of assistance. I am truly most appreciative. When the time comes for me to start looking for a part-time home in Oz, I shall be pleased to be guided by you re sourcing a piano. Probably when I visit my daughter in May I shall start the first stages of looking.

Incidentally if you wish to contact privately with comments re Wayne Stuart, please feel free to do so. I will respect your confidences.

Samickowner

Stuart and Sons recordings:

I listened to some samples here:
http://www.beethoven-sonatas.com/samples.html

Certainly a very distinctive sound, especially on the left half of the compass, and it took me a while to get used to it. Looking forward to experiencing the piano for real.