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I got the idea for this thread from a post in a different thread. Ando said:"Performance (including recordings on the internet) is an ego-driven pursuit. It is the desire to display one's skills as well as impress and please other people. I don't mean ego-driven in a negative sense, just that it is about things that are not music per se - how people feel about you and how you feel about them is extrinsic to music." I think this an important/interesting question. So do you agree or disagree that performance is ego driven? If you agree, do you think this is a bad thing or more not "in a negative sense"? I think that if the only reason is ego in a performance this might be a bad thing. I'm not sure really sure, and the answer would depend on one's definition of "ego". I can only say for myself it's part ego driven and part wanting to share something beautiful with an audience. I recently got some sensational Mike Garson arrangements of Christmas songs that I learned very fast because I wanted to play them at the senior center for the two reasons I mentioned. You can hear snippets of Garson's performance of these pieces, which are the best arrangements of Christmas songs I have ever heard, and view parts of the sheet music here(click on the link for each piece and then click on listen to sample): http://www.freehandmusic.com/sheet-music/more-jazzy-holidays-from-366335
Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/11/10 10:53 AM.
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What if it is about the music itself? Some people purely love the literature so much (like me). I just want to learn and learn repertoire and be able to play it as well as I could. I like learning, and performing is a way of learning. Not everybody thinks they're great. I think I suck. I'm not vain.. or just becuse we play, does that mean we're vain?
That's an interesting concept but I think it can apply to a LOT of jobs out there. Actors, pop singers, heck even news people on TV..
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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What if it is about the music itself? Some people purely love the literature so much (like me). I just want to learn and learn repertoire and be able to play it as well as I could. I like learning, and performing is a way of learning. Not everybody thinks they're great. I think I suck. I'm not vain.. or just becuse we play, does that mean we're vain?
That's an interesting concept but I think it can apply to a LOT of jobs out there. Actors, pop singers, heck even news people on TV.. Yes, I think it is virtually the same as actors and pop singers and also most of the other arts like dance and painting. Also for some sports like figure skating, chess, and...
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From my perspective, the love for the music, is the core of performing.. respect for the composer, if not reverence. Given our very commodity centered culture (i.e. materialistic) it's easy for some to slip into insalubrious directions.. where an inflated ego gets even more so. If the ego takes over, the performance suffers. I tend to condition myself within the Eastern Cultural framework. Where the here and now, non judgment and being in the moment is all encompassing. Not so easy to attain but worth working on. Favorite books on the subject: Just Being at the Piano by Mildred Portney Chase (out of print but still available at Amazon, or those rare book sites) Also like Zen and the Art of Archery and the Inner Game of Tennis by Tim Galway. Blogging at http://arioso7.wordpress.com
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Why do you think an audience would be interested in listening to someone who thinks they suck spend time on stage learning? That seems incredibly vain to me - asking an audience to spend their time watching you learn.
I think piano performance is very ego driven. I think it's about communication, and I think that in order to reach an audience, you have to believe that you have something worth communicating.
As an audience member, I rather like listening to people with a healthy ego. They tend to have a strong point of view and care very much about communicating that point of view to the audience.
That being said, there does come a point where the wrong kind of ego gets in the way. It's possible for a performer to be disrespectful to the composer or disrespectful to the audience.
Performers are the link; they stand between the composer and the audience, and however transparent a lens they choose to be, the quality of that lens deserves to be taken seriously, and most of all by the lens itself.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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[...] Not everybody thinks they're great. I think I suck.[...] If that's what you really think of your performing abilities, why would you ever perform in public? I've read this from you before, and I wonder if it's a case of "The lady doth protest too much [...]," given that some of the recorded performances I've heard from you are quite outstanding. It's one thing to be modest about one's accomplishments but quite another to be self-demeaning. Given your accomplishments and talent, I wonder why? Speaking for myself in response to the original question raised, I certainly feel that my performances are - but only in part - ego driven. When I am particularly pleased with the results of a practice session, I often think not only of wishing that that performance could be shared but also thinking of potentially positive reactions to that performance. That certainly is ego, isn't it? Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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EDIT: Dang it Kreisler, why do you have to be so awesome? When I am particularly pleased with the results of a practice session, I often think not only of wishing that that performance could be shared but also thinking of potentially positive reactions to that performance.
Same here. I was practicing La Valse this morning and was making some great headway. I then played through the specific couple of passages, imagining myself performing in front of people, but they weren't listening to me... they were WALTZING! Hahaha! Imagine that. But yes: I feel like La Valse really clicks with me, (like Le Tombeau de Couperin and Concerto in G do), and that I will pull it off very well (relative term, of course) in a few months... Hopefully in time for my spring recital! Is this ego? Or is this excitement? Anticipation? Perseverance? Devotion? Love? The desire to share with others because you want them to experience the same thing you do? A combination of any (or all) of these?
Last edited by Orange Soda King; 12/11/10 01:02 PM.
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It's ego driven. Whether it's a good, strong ego, or boringly egotistical, performance is ego driven, as are most activities in life.
I see no harm in this. It is only when individuals deny they have ego that harm is being done, but only to those individuals themselves. I think it's unhealthy.
Tomasino
It's snowing here in Minnesota. Oh, my God, is it snowing. Gotta go start the snowblower. I've already snowblown once. Now I've gotta do it again just to keep up. Not too much practice today.
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10
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We "regular people" throw around Freud's technical terminology too freely. We don't have a clear definition of "ego", and I think for this thread we really don't need it; we can reduce the discussion to much simpler terms, terms that have fallen out of fashion due to their mis-appropriation years ago by organized religion.
The church used to mention "Pride" as one of the "deadly sins". That emphasis has now mostly gone out of the church, not because it has gone out of fashion but because it's easy to recognize that they got the facts wrong on that one. False pride is the problem they should have been after. However, that leaves the discussion one-sided; false modesty is not a different problem, merely the same problem looking in the other direction.
Pogorelich's "I suck" statement is a clear example of false modesty. (Sorry P., but everybody can see that.) Many youtube performers etc obviously have a great deal of false pride.
These two so-called "sins" are nothing more than special cases of a more obvious and easy-to-understand "sin", lying. (Special cases because the lying is essentially to oneself and not so much to others.)
Putting yourself in the proper, truthful spot on the modesty<-->pride axis, not higher and not lower, is IMO a good goal for anybody.
(I'm a piano teacher.)
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Why do you think an audience would be interested in listening to someone who thinks they suck spend time on stage learning? That seems incredibly vain to me - asking an audience to spend their time watching you learn. So you don't learn anything when you perform? That means you've played the same way since you were a kid. I find that hard to believe. Plus it's not WHY I do it, it's just one of the positive things. I love music. I have things to say. If people think that's full of egoism and vanity, they can ... I really don't want to finish the rest of that sentence because I'll get banned.
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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[...] Not everybody thinks they're great. I think I suck.[...] If that's what you really think of your performing abilities, why would you ever perform in public? Because the more you do it, the better you become - whether it's gradual or not. I suck compared to where I want to be. It's a constant work towards something. I might like to add that I think a lot of other people suck, including "famous" names.. But I don't think (or at least I hope) that I'll suck forever =)
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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I do not think you can separate out ego from any art.
For example, with music, if you have an ability to play, that is an intrinsic part of you that, for me anyways, needs to be expressed; and I cannot delete the ego part from the overall expression of music. Thats just human nature.
Thus, if I try to delete the ego from performance, it becomes false modesty, which is, as someone just said, just another ego expression, viewed from a different direction.
The problem is when ego becomes obnoxious.
A good friend of mine is a phenomenal player...very gifted, and he knows it, but he is humble and meek about it.
When people praise him, he just quietly says "Thank you".
He does not deny or try to minimize his gift, rather he lets the music speak for itself, instead of preening about, bragging about it.
Blues and Boogie-Woogie piano teacher.
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Of course ego factors into the equation...there's no question about it, but I do agree with Pogo in that it IS a learning experience. Every single time you play there's something to be learned and if you don't THEN you have a problem.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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Of course ego factors into the equation...there's no question about it, but I do agree with Pogo in that it IS a learning experience. Every single time you play there's something to be learned and if you don't THEN you have a problem. Well said.
Blues and Boogie-Woogie piano teacher.
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Sometimes after I perform I feel that that will be my last time. But then there is something that entices my to seek out opportunities to perform again. I like the extra incentive that it gives me to practice. I like the adrenaline feel of an energy boost, and the audience gives me a definite feeling. With some I have a greater connection than others. It's very satisfying when people tell me how the music affected them. Maybe Ethel Merman said it best when she sang, "There's no business like show business."
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I agree with Pogorelich. As Jan van Eyke wrote on his paintings "as I can but not as I would" (and he was pretty good I think). Of course, a decent performer realizes that they're good. But the best are always also humble and working to be better. Excessively egotistical performers (Lang Lang maybe?) tend to be irritating.
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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Definately ego-drivem, which explains why so many conversations on this forum become so heated and childish. Bunch of ego-inflated heads banging into each other. Of course, not all conversations end up like this - but it's definately there, and breaks out quite frequently.
I'm glad I've grown out of my critical, egotistical rivalries with other pianists and can just enjoy another musician's company, without feeling the need to trash their musical skills, or test them, or needle them endlessly with pedantic comebacks that only inflate myself at the expense of them. I received enough praise when I performed for others, that it had sometimes become difficult to bring myself back down to earth for a while. I eventually realized that while playing the piano well is definately impressive, it's to be expected when you dedicate so much time and effort to a hobby, or profession. It's just as impressive as an accountant's number-crunching skills, a veterinarian's kitty-kat boo-boo fixing skills, a waiter's ability to navigate multiple tables and remember it all with the most exquisite of timing. It's expected, in other words..
But... it is always nice to be praised for something one loves to do. It's like added icing to the cake. In most cases, it's why parents push their children to learn musical skills, I would say. The interesting question is: Which comes first? The wish for praise, or the wish to learn?
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That's exactly the kind of healthy ego I'm talking about.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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As the person who inadvertently started this topic, I thought I should drop in and make a comment. I think there are some great posts in this thread which accurately describe what I meant when I made the "ego-driven" comment. I certainly didn't mean it in any negative sense. In the context I raised it I was trying to distinguish between the process of making music, and the process of displaying one's music to others. I did this because David Horne suggested in another thread that if you don't play your music to others, you may not be making music at all. So I just wanted to explain that I was challenging this notion and I feel that you are under no obligation to display yourself to others just to consider yourself a musician or musical.
As far as the ego goes, I have studied the ego quite extensively from a psychology perspective, but I agree with one of the above posters - it doesn't really need to be defined too strictly here. For the purposes of this discussion I would describe the ego as the part of us that seeks affirmation or confirmation in any degree.
So, the main ways I see ego (affirmation/confirmation) can act on us in a musical setting:
The Positive/Harmless Types:
Practising alone: We we may want to have a personal sense of accomplishment that is only for our own sense of worth. This need not be proven to others.
Performing: We may feel a desire to have people admire our accomplishments on our instrument.
Also Performing: We may delight from pleasing others with our music. A very benevolent form of ego - but still ego as it's concerned with how others perceive us and value us.
The Negative Types:
A bit further afield: You can use your standing as a musician to be a boastful jerk who goes around acting like a Prima Donna. This is nothing to do with music per se, but uses the attention and notoriety of one's musical reputation to seek power and glory even in non-musical settings.
More perversely: False modesty: some people enjoy displaying incredible skills and have people admire them for their feigned, incredibly modest and unassuming nature afterwards. That is a more cultivated and insidious form of ego. It is a subtle manipulation which seeks to aggrandise oneself from every perspective possible. "Oh he's so brilliant, yet doesn't seem to realise it at all. He's so modest!" Of course a brilliant musician is aware of his abilities. Some go even further and constantly denigrate themselves. By seeming to reject adulation, they will be inviting people to disagree and make even more complimentary statements about them. I met characters like this when studying music in Europe. Very tiresome!
Most people have a healthy mix of the first three types I mentioned. They also play music just to soothe their own soul. That part of it isn't driven by ego. But the truth is, as many have suggested, most things have an ego component. We shouldn't try to eliminate that because that's what keeps us involved and connected with those around us. It just needs to be tempered with awareness and modesty or else we can become tiresome people to be around!
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only a few futile remarks after the above psycho-musico-philosophical essays: performing music was originally done by the one who composed/improvised it, it has (d?)evolved into something quite more complex: making audible a written score, probably known to all who listen, and be compared to others that do the same thing. As there are so many wonderful scores to be played, it's a natural thing that people want to hear them performed, ergo, that there is a legion of people who want to oblige. Among the last mentioned one could differentiate at least 3 kinds: 1) those who should be protected against themselves...2) those who like the attention doing something spectacular, 3) those who consider themself as warriors of the Graal and try notwithstanding the situation/occasion/'popularity' of the works/their own 'looks'/any fashion of the day, still can't restrain themselves to go on stage to share their love of the music they know. Many performers I reckon to be in category 2, my best loved are though in nr.3, Ego is a 'quantité négligable' as to Art, very important though as to (commercially incited) stardom.
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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I just like to play piano. I find it soothing and satisfying. I enjoy analyzing pieces(as far as I am able), i enjoy reading about some composers, and playing a piece with the understanding of the style. It's a hobby that I enjoy very much. If I had a childhood which included classical training, I might have pursued a performance career- as a pianist but more likely a member of a symphony on a brass instrument. Being in my community concert band once a week is two hours of heaven on earth for me.
I have had the good fortune to have many different musical experiences. I have taught piano out of my home, substituted for grade school music teachers and band masters. I spent a year being the grade school music teacher for an inner city Catholic school. I am glad I did those things because I realized teaching as a career does not satisfy me as much as being a hospital nurse does. All I really want to do is make music. EXcept for family and friends the last time I performed on piano in public was about 4 years ago. BUt I still play, study, and love it.
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I would have much hesitation saying definitively that pianists primarily play for solely the pleasure of their audiences. It doesn't seem like that is the case. Ultimately, we will truly not know ones motives.
Last edited by lisztonian; 12/12/10 01:41 AM.
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I'll never understand why those who think that performing is somehow socially or morally suspect are perfectly happy to listen to performances, recorded or live, nearly every day. Being positive about being an audience, but negative about performing just doesn't make sense! I think western culture is uncomfortable with showing off. It's "unseemly". Either that or the intoxication with fame and glory is so great that there is no room for any actual content (think reality TV stardom).
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
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Back forty years and more ago, when I used to play for people with some frequency, the ego issue was a real bother for me in various ways.
One interesting aspect of that was that sometimes when playing, I became so immersed in the music that I more or less lost my ego. Those moments were the best, and I started thinking that kind of ego-transcendence was the only valid goal of performing. Anything else was somehow bogus, to my way of thinking at that time.
Of course, to even find oneself in front of an audience required playing the social role of "pianist", which is an interesting ego exercise, but I never got very comfortable with it.
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Yes, it's ego driven. In fact I'd say that pretty much anything is ego driven: Even handing over half of your billions (*ahem*... Gates? Jobs? Facebook guy?) makes YOU feel great about yourself, and of course it ads to your reputation points (as if it was a weird real life RPG game). Having kids? You are the parent! Doing a good job? You feel better about yourself, people thank you, you feel important, and so on. ... Ok while all the above (except that piano performance is ego driven partly) is a huge exxageration, but it always seems quite funny to think of things this way: We humans are completely self driven! hehe...
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Nikolas, you remind me of some sayings regarding charity - who is it really helping? The charitee, or the donor's sense of self-esteem? I guess it's forgiveable, as long as it helps the charitee.
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I think western culture is uncomfortable with showing off. It's "unseemly". Either that or the intoxication with fame and glory is so great that there is no room for any actual content (think reality TV stardom). Amerians uncomfortable about showing off!? Isn't their motto 'Baby, if you got it, flaunt it.'?
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Amerians uncomfortable about showing off!? Isn't their motto 'Baby, if you got it, flaunt it.'? Yea, I think it's on the 50 dollar bill, right under "the queen sucks".
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I think western culture is uncomfortable with showing off. It's "unseemly". Either that or the intoxication with fame and glory is so great that there is no room for any actual content (think reality TV stardom). Amerians uncomfortable about showing off!? Isn't their motto 'Baby, if you got it, flaunt it.'? “The whole strength of England lies in the fact that the enormous majority of the English people are snobs†~ George Bernard Shaw
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I'm sure he meant to say snobbyish. Problem was the word hadn't been invented yet!
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Human beings are complex and maybe some people are more ego-driven than others- whatever. But when I take a walk in the woods alone and listen to the birds, smell the earth, hear the wind and the rustle of the leaves and notice with delight what has changed with the seasons- I am just plain enjoying myself and nature.
When I do a good job at work, I am satisfied but I go to work already feeling good about myself. I work as a nurse because I find value in assisting others move towards wellness. Certainly it reinforces my good feeling about myself. But.... I take care of many people , some of whom have nothing to offer others because of birth damage, addictions, debilitating disease- and I know each individual is valuable. IF I were unable to make a contribution to society- if noone ever complimented me or appreciated me, if I were a "loser" by society's definition, I would still feel good about myself. We are social animals and we do a lot to fit in but not everything has to do with stroking your own ego, or having someone else stroke it.
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For me, playing piano is a self-indulging activity. I don't like performances, and I often treat them as equal to playing to myself in a nice acoustic hall. I like to play to a circle of friends though, as a way to communicate my feelings with them.
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My objective is to be able to play well in front of people. I will be happy if I can play the way I have practiced at home. I have no intention to show that I can play well. It is totally my own objective.
Everybody has different objectives, some are terrified and unable to play well infront of people, regardless how many times they try. Some have natural ability to play well infront of people.
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I'm sure he meant to say snobbyish. Problem was the word hadn't been invented yet! are you saying that 'snobbyish' is not a word?
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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I agree with Nikolas that ego is simply the force that drives you to make any accomplishment in your life, whether small or large. Ego in others is something that stands out to you when your ego and someone else's are vastly different in size. Except as an interesting philosophical discussion, it's best to ignore worries about your own ego and just work hard at something that you enjoy, while enjoying the people around you. But to enter into the philosophical discussion... I went to an Ivy League university for graduate school, where I had ample opportunity to observe egos in some of the most accomplished and driven students and professors in the United States. I made observations of the professors there that I think apply not just to research science, but apply to extreme excellence in almost any field, like world-class piano performance. In order to play the ultra competitive game of applying for grants, performing cutting-edge research, competing to be the first published, etc, it almost seemed to be necessary for professors to have an inflated ego. In order to do all these things successfully, you have to sacrifice almost all of your free time (having a family is basically the only hobby anyone can make time for), and your job becomes virtually your entire life. You have to be ready to quickly analyze your colleagues and dismiss any of them whose ideas are not insightful enough to help you. You also have to believe that writing your grant and doing your research is more important than visiting your friends, more important than going to your kid's ballet performance, more important than spending regular time with your spouse or partner, and so on. Many people perceive this as being extremely self-absorbed or egotistical - perhaps it is and perhaps it isn't. The researcher is afforded a lot of prestige, but he or she is also sacrificing his or her life. When you look at the cost/benefit of this lifestyle, the prestige they get is one of the major payments for all of their sacrifices, so the adulation of the masses is something that keeps them driven and doing what they do. I think this pertains quite directly to world-class musical performers as much as it does to researchers. Then you have the issue of false-modesty or inflated ego. A grad student friend of mine observed that many people who attend graduate school or follow some other elite life path requiring years of self-denial are in one way or another "incomplete people." Many of them have some sort of sense of deficiency or inadequacy, often lingering from earlier years, and they can't feel worthwhile without knowing that they are doing something elite and amazing that proves they aren't the person they used to be. This certainly doesn't apply to all graduate students or professional pianists, but I think it may apply to those who display blatant false-modesty or inflated ego. They're the ones who most need to hear praise from every direction. P.S. No offense intended to any professors or other exceptional people out there. We all (hopefully) make the life choices we want, and should be unapologetic about them. After all, I chose to be a professor too. You might guess though that I wasn't interested in leading my field in research
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I went to an Ivy League university for graduate school, where I had ample opportunity to observe egos in some of the most accomplished and driven students and professors in the United States. I made observations of the professors there that I think apply not just to research science, but apply to extreme excellence in almost any field, like world-class piano performance. In order to play the ultra competitive game of applying for grants, performing cutting-edge research, competing to be the first published, etc, it almost seemed to be necessary for professors to have an inflated ego. At the most basic level...to get up and play in front of people, to apply for grants, to "put yourself forward" in any way, and to do it well, you have to believe at some level that you're good enough to do it. Maybe not better than everyone else, but good enough to do that performance, good enough to apply for that grant or position. I think it was the ABF forum once where we were talking about playing "with feeling" (ie-musicality or whatever you want to call it...not playing mechanically). I pointed out that it does take a little bit of guts to do this (just like it does to act in a play)...to say to yourself, "I'm good enough to do this sucessfully."
Adult Amateur Pianist
My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.
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It's important to know if you do things for the right reasons. If it's healthy. If it's genuine. If it admirable or not. The better the reasons, the better the life.
Everyone is ego driven or self-centered. This is true because nothing can be more important to oneself than ones self. As they say, it's just a fact of nature. We are each a kind of world unto ourselves. When we die, in a very personal and real sense, the world dies.
One of the things I liked that some of you said, in essence was: I do it for the love of it. That is, you have a great passion for music and the piano. Performance, I believe, is more properly driven by this than by adulation from an audience.
I recall famous guitar player Chet Atkins saying something like: "If my performance days would somehow end I'd still play for myself. That's how I started." There's a video of Horowitz on YouTube where, as he walks by his piano, he gives it a pat. For the love of it? Without question. I enjoyed seeing that. I've read that he was self-centered, well, so are the rest of us. He brought enjoyment to a lot of people and his self-centeredness made it possible.
There's a lot to be said for a "self-sufficient ego." You achieve it and people's opinions, whether good or bad, don't mean much. You have strong loves, passions, interests--and that's about all you need. A good understanding of the world and it's people also plays a part.
I would guess that many great composers felt their own approval was all they needed for their work. This attitude left them free, mentally, to be themselves--to be original.
No matter how self confident, self absorbed, self-sufficient, ego driven a person is though, I'm sure everyone enjoys sharing their love, in any field of endeavor.
Bech
Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.
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One lesson my teacher is teaching me is how to have this performance-ego. I'm not naturally very outgoing, but must learn to have that attitude in order to properly perform the music. It's amazing what a difference a change in attitude can have! It's a role to be worn when we take to the stage. I would come into a lesson, and be apologetic and making excuses about my practicing before playing. A disclaimer for the mistakes to come. Then my teacher would stop me and correct my attitude. No excuses, just play with the conviction the music deserves. Mistakes happen but to play through them and not let it detract from the performance. I must be willing to put myself out there with the music, without reserve. So I shelf my doubts, and just go give it my all. Everyone is ego driven or self-centered. This is true because nothing can be more important to oneself than ones self. As they say, it's just a fact of nature. We are each a kind of world unto ourselves. When we die, in a very personal and real sense, the world dies. Not so sure about this... I won't dispute that everyone has an ego, but I would say we can be more or less ego-centric, and it's very possible to experience the world as much larger than ourselves. The most obvious example I can think of is the entire history of people dying for their country, or some principle they believe in.
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No excuses, just play with the conviction the music deserves. THIS is what it's all about. If the conviction is there, then everything else that we've all mentioned precedes it.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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It's well-known that the most successful people in many walks of life (certainly in business, politics, media etc) have characteristics almost amounting to borderline personality disorder - huge egos being a big part of it. Amoung musicians, solo pianists in particular (maybe not so much song accompanists or chamber musicians), the meek definitely will not inherit the earth. After all you're going out on stage by yourself (as well as in front of 100 players, if playing a concerto - and you're boss) and receiving all the applause. If you don't think you're that good, whether others do or not, you won't get anywhere: the music world is littered with gifted performers who never make it because they are too timid to push themselves forward - to concert promoters, agents, the public.
No pianist who doesn't think he's good enough to perform for a paying audience will ever end up playing for one as a means of earning a living - not matter what he/she says.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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Everyone is ego driven or self-centered. This is true because nothing can be more important to oneself than ones self. As they say, it's just a fact of nature. We are each a kind of world unto ourselves. When we die, in a very personal and real sense, the world dies. Not so sure about this... I won't dispute that everyone has an ego, but I would say we can be more or less ego-centric, and it's very possible to experience the world as much larger than ourselves. The most obvious example I can think of is the entire history of people dying for their country, or some principle they believe in. I agree - people handle their egos in quite a number of ways, including being pretty detached from them or sacrificing them for something or some person they feel is greater than their personal interests. I also think that many artists and musicians have a knack for getting so totally absorbed in their art that they can more or less lose their ego while they are at work.
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there are all sorts of people. I absolutely love playing. I adore learning, exploring literature and acquiring skills. I play publicly ALL the time. I dress to melt into the surroundings and don't particularly enjoy it. I'm often nervous and terrified.
Oddly I am very egotistical.... however, playing for an audience is not one of the ways I stroke my ego... it's more a service for my religious community. I am far more interested in the music itself.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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"The researcher is afforded a lot of prestige, but he or she is also sacrificing his or her life. When you look at the cost/benefit of this lifestyle, the prestige they get is one of the major payments for all of their sacrifices, so the adulation of the masses is something that keeps them driven and doing what they do."
I work with researchers daily and I don't see that "prestige". Yes some of them get on TV once in a while, but I don't think that they are remembered by anyone as a famous person. At best as a valuable input on the topic. Therefore I don't believe that fame or prestige is driving researchers. I think they just love their job and are good at it. You are right that they invest most of their time in their job, and yes their relations can suffer under that.
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I think it is love, not ego, that is driving most people. But maybe I don't quite get what ego is.
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But if it's all about the music and you hate performing, why not just play music in private and leave it to someone else to play in public? There has to be some ego involved surely? For anyone to be performing at all they have to have some ego. To say that it's all about the music suggests enough ego to believe that you can make decent music. That's not a bad thing, but it certainly requires some ego.
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The gist of what I'm reading here leads me to the conclusion that there is no way to avoid having an ego if you are going to be performing.
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Bech
"I'm sure everyone enjoys sharing their love, in any field of endeavor."
Probably yes, but not everyone shares his love.
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"The researcher is afforded a lot of prestige, but he or she is also sacrificing his or her life. When you look at the cost/benefit of this lifestyle, the prestige they get is one of the major payments for all of their sacrifices, so the adulation of the masses is something that keeps them driven and doing what they do."
I work with researchers daily and I don't see that "prestige". Yes some of them get on TV once in a while, but I don't think that they are remembered by anyone as a famous person. At best as a valuable input on the topic. Therefore I don't believe that fame or prestige is driving researchers. I think they just love their job and are good at it. You are right that they invest most of their time in their job, and yes their relations can suffer under that. I don't mean prestige to the extent that they are recognized on the streetcorner, I just mean the regular conversations with new people who learn the occupation of a scientific researcher and immediately respond to the likes of, "Wow, you must be a geeeniuuuus! I could never do something like that!" When I was in graduate school I got it all the time - I'm not famous and I've not accomplished anything worthwhile scientifically, but that didn't matter to Joe Public. The elite pursuit was enough to confer prestige immediately.
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Ah you mean prestige by being able to say to others that you are a "scientist".
Mmmm do you really think that people offer their life to such a "prestige"?
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No excuses, just play with the conviction the music deserves. THIS is what it's all about. If the conviction is there, then everything else that we've all mentioned precedes it. Yes! These recent discussions are driving home how important performing is to me. It's such an impetus to play at the highest quality I'm capable of, or to expand my capacity if it's insufficient. It's crushing on a variety of levels to give a bad performance. I consider myself lucky to have such a good teacher who can teach on the level of the attitude we bring to the music.
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The gist of what I'm reading here leads me to the conclusion that there is no way to avoid having an ego if you are going to be performing. We probably could clarify what we mean when we say 'ego'. I may not be using it entirely properly either, but by my understanding there's no way to avoid having an ego if you're human. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. More likely it's a necessary aspect of our psyche in order to function in society, but it seems like many are referring more to having an ego problem. It's well-known that the most successful people in many walks of life (certainly in business, politics, media etc) have characteristics almost amounting to borderline personality disorder - huge egos being a big part of it. Not so sure of this either. I think the larger-than-life personalities get more attention so it may seem like they're the ones who get to the top of the game, and I won't deny that a narcissistic personality can be a driving factor towards excellence. But I've heard many interviews with more healthy minded people who are successful in their field. They just don't make it into the news. A quick story: I got into music because I wanted to be a popular rockstar. I saw a Led Zeppelin video on TV when I was a kid, I didn't think I would like being the singer, but the guitarist got plenty of camera-time and seemed cool so I decided I wanted to play guitar. Following that motivation I got fairly good at guitar, and eventually became known as the best guitarist in the little highschool world we lived in. Mission accomplished, I've gained acceptance! and with that, my progress slowed. Fortunately somewhere along the way began the seed of a genuine appreciation of music which has only grown since. The point I want to illustrate is that strictly egotistical reasons only go so far. I have a hard time imagining someone becoming a successful performer without having a genuine love of music somewhere at the core, whatever layers of egotism or other motives may also be part of the mix.
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With a little more thought about: "Is piano performance ego driven," I asked myself, what motivates the question? It's a good question, but why ask it?
I would guess that our societies condemnation of selfishness plays a part and that the OP is equating "ego driven" with selfishness or "selfishly driven."
Selfishness, or more correctly, rational selfishness is required of all of us if we are to live a meaningful and happy life. Everything we do is, or should be, motivated by what we consider to be in our personal self-interest. To live and act otherwise is self-destructive and therefore irrational.
We eat for enjoyment and to sustain our lives. A selfish act. We work to afford the necessities and luxuries of life. Although we may work for the other guy we mainly are motivated to work by our self-interest. A selfish act. We play games or make music for personal enjoyment. A selfish act. Etc., etc.
It's when selfishness harms others, whether via thievery, being a social parasite or bullying, etc. that it's bad and irrational. In a true sense this is not being selfish but rather self-destructive. It is action contrary to the perpetrator's true self-interest. Respect for the rights and property of others is in one's self-interest.
One day, and it'll arrive faster than you might expect, we will all commit the ultimate act of selflessness. We will die. In a pure sense to be totally selfless is to not exist.
So if we are selfish, or ego driven and strive to have the best for ourselves and our families we are simply being normal, healthy, happy, rational, rewarded human beings.
The preceding reminds me of one of my favorite quotations:
"Pleasure serves as the emotional fuel for one's existence." --Ayn Rand
Bech
Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.
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