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There are some people who have talked sensibly about principles. Just look above at what Dustin, Elissa and David_a wrote about how one might form a judgment about teaching technique.
What have you offered this discussion that would help people judge appropriate circumstances for intervention beyond asserting your right to do as you please in every situation you face?
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With comments like this ...
I have spent some quality time chatting with and listening to Nobel Prize winners
... and this ... someone who's had a pretty bum deal himself and doesn't see why others should have to suffer it too ... the conversation is headed off to new heights ...
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What have you offered by way of helping people to judge appropriate circumstances for intervention beyond asserting your right to do as you please in every situation you face? Judgements like that come with the territory and no, I don't think there's a manual.
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landorrano,
Yeah, the Nobel stuff sounds a bit over the top, doesn't it. In truth, I have talked with at least four of 'em, and they fit the pattern I describe. They radiated professionalism. Chatting with laureates isn't so odd for someone in academia. There are a fair number of them wandering around. In any case, the point is that if people who truly know what they are talking about can be humble, and genuinely interested in what others have to say, perhaps the rest of us can try to avoid jumping to self-righteous conclusions about the handiwork of fellow teachers.
KBK,
Indeed, there is no manual. But there is no manual for being a buttinsky, either. That's a technical term, by the way.
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landorrano,
Yeah, the Nobel stuff sounds a bit over the top, doesn't it. In truth, I have talked with at least four of 'em, and they fit the pattern I describe. No, it doesn't sound untrue. But it has nothing to do with anything and doesn't strengthen your point of view in the matter in question ... which is, by the way, my point of view as well. Yes, I am one of the "a lot of us" that you mention in another post, and I object to my spokesman invoking such an argument.
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Actually, it does. I edited the above post ...
"In any case, the point is that if people who truly know what they are talking about can be humble, and genuinely interested in what others have to say, perhaps the rest of us can try to avoid jumping to self-righteous conclusions about the handiwork of fellow teachers."
If you find that this does not add to the argument, fine.
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P*D I think I know what you were getting at. Maybe a useful message is for the student - If someone is offering criticism, ask yourself: what is the quality of the criticism? is there a useful suggestion? such as some useful questions to ask yourself, something to watch out for in future, a genuinely useful tip for positive action that you can actually use?
If the critic offers a short judgement such as "your teacher has no idea about how to play Mozart" then I would ignore this (file it away) until in future someone says something like "You should read Rosenblum's Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music, I think you would find it interesting".
Is your critc expanding your mind and future, or simply expressing his own discontent? But even the discontented critic could be useful to you, you'll have to ask lots of questions to get past rather thoughtless dismissiveness to real information. A very negative person may have a lot to offer, but be wary of their judgements.
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
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If the student in question is nine, and the teacher is talking to the parent -- who may or may not know a thing about either pianism or pedagogy -- I doubt either of them will be able to think along the lines you are suggesting.
Your advice seems wise for an older student who can absorb or deflect unsolicited criticism. It still leaves part of the question begged ... why did the critic not approach the student's teacher with his advice, or perhaps the student together with the teacher? And on what basis did the critic decide to interject his opinion?
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You're right P*D. My post is directed towards PW readers generally and is a comment about the nature of criticism and advice. If the OP and friend are old enough to raise the question it may be of use to them too.
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
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... it's no big secret that there are quacks out there who got as far as John Thompson's Book One twenty years ago and now need a little spending money and decide to hang out their shingle as a piano teacher. The trouble is, quite a number of these quacks are the most devoted givers of free advice.
(I'm a piano teacher.)
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To clarify, my friend was playing at a piano store. It turns out the teacher who criticized his teacher worked at the store as a piano tuner/technician (turns out he was also a piano teacher). He saw my friend playing and offered the un-solicitated advice. He then asked who my friend studied with...and apparently, he'd heard of my friend's teacher before (though never met him). He pointed out those "mistakes" and called the teaching methods of my friend's teacher "old school" and pointed out that with his own students, he likes to teach out of everything to help the student. I don't know if that's an insult or not...being old school doesn't necessarily mean that the approach is bad.
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Old School anything is usually, (but not always), good. Classical music is old school. Boogie-Woogie piano is Old School. Old School tattoos are beautiful. Politeness and good manners are old school...
Blues and Boogie-Woogie piano teacher.
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landorrano,
Yeah, the Nobel stuff sounds a bit over the top, doesn't it. In truth, I have talked with at least four of 'em, and they fit the pattern I describe. They radiated professionalism. Yeah but. And it's kind of a big but, actually. Do you have any idea how carefully Nobel laureates, or indeed any scientific professionals, examine each other's work looking for flaws? And how viciously they expose said flaws? They have to. That is how scientific integrity is maintained. The same is not true of music instruction. Teachers are on the whole very reluctant to criticize others in the field. This field does NOT self regulate, and there is no licensing body that performs that task. I'm an engineer. My license required graduation from an ABET certified university, plus a difficult exam, plus proof of responsible experience. It can be revoked for misconduct or misjudgement. The lack of regulation would be okay if the consumer were capable of evaluating the service, but for the most part they are not. They have no way of knowing if their piano teacher is a genius or a quack. Quite a dilemma, really.
gotta go practice
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Hmm, John Thompson piano method is old school.
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
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Holding an orange in your palm is old school.
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To clarify, my friend was playing at a piano store. It turns out the teacher who criticized his teacher worked at the store as a piano tuner/technician (turns out he was also a piano teacher). He saw my friend playing and offered the unsolicited advice. He then asked who my friend studied with...and apparently, he'd heard of my friend's teacher before (though never met him). He pointed out those "mistakes" and called the teaching methods of my friend's teacher "old school" and pointed out that with his own students, he likes to teach out of everything to help the student. I don't know if that's an insult or not...being old school doesn't necessarily mean that the approach is bad. Thank you for clarifying. This really is unprofessional behavior in the extreme. Not only is your friend in the learning process, criticizing a student who is learning could be devastating to the student in many ways. For certain, it undermines the student's rapport with the current teacher and plants seeds of doubts, which, of course, was the goal. As many have pointed out already, we have no way of knowing that the store teacher is one iota better, teaches a better method, has better results with students, etc. If your friend feels uncomfortable continuing with the current teacher, I suggest s/he look for a third teacher, and totally avoid the store teacher entirely.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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(I posted same time as John.) He pointed out those "mistakes" and called the teaching methods of my friend's teacher "old school" and pointed out that with his own students, he likes to teach out of everything to help the student. Are you able to give examples of the kinds of "mistakes" that this teacher identified? There are two elements here: the idea of mistakes, and the idea of school. A mistake/weakness/missing thing a student hasn't learned yet etc. can be things like: can't read well, lost about key signatures (fumbles), stronger in sight reading or playing by ear, technical weaknesses. Sometimes a teacher neglects something that everyone agrees has to be taught from the beginning, and another teacher will be disturbed to see it missing. For example, poor posture can lead to all kinds of other difficulties. But teachers also have different ideas about what should be taught first or emphasized: some like training the ear first, and others like to push reading first. When there are strong beliefs, one teacher will call the other teacher's approach "wrong". That is not the same as the poor posture example. "School": Loosely speaking, I mean an attitude and/or approach toward how things should be taught. Take the skill of being at home in different key signatures, being able to play runs and chords smoothly. One "school" has a student do scales, chords, studies that reinforce things (Hanon, Czerny), and play a rigidly set traditional repertoire that systematically brings in those skills. Another "school" thinks that you can find scales in actual pieces, it's more natural to use pieces, and that you should play a large variety of pieces while working on the technique and theory as it comes up. These two ways of thinking are opposite, but the goal is the same. The fellow in the store might hear something that he considers a weakness - something he would reinforce first but the present teacher brings in later on. Or he might hear something that actually is a concern. He *also* disagrees with the "school" (he said he likes using a variety of pieces). You have to separate these two things. If your friend likes the traditional way and wouldn't like a looser choice of varied pieces, then why should he change? If this person also identified real things, such as stumbling, being weak in key signatures, tense wrists, the I'd be inclined to ask the present teacher about it: "Is this a problem? Should we be working on this?" The teacher may have thoughts about this already. It is hard to work with your teacher when you start having doubts, and it's also hard to practice when doubt has been sown in your mind about what you're doing.
Last edited by keystring; 12/13/10 09:08 AM. Reason: having noticed simultaneous posting
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Yeah but.
And it's kind of a big but, actually.
Do you have any idea how carefully Nobel laureates, or indeed any scientific professionals, examine each other's work looking for flaws?
Yes, I do, actually. I participate in the refereeing process myself. Indeed, my analogy is hardly perfect. It was meant to be descriptive of interpersonal relations that follow a general politeness and respect, rather than as an exact comparison to piano teachers. Something that Rocket88 tagged very well .... Politeness and good manners are old school... My point is that people who are at the pinnacle of their field often behave in very polite, professional, and even deferential ways. I'm sure they have healthy egos, but they know how to keep them in check. This is a good model for the rest of us to follow.
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To clarify, my friend was playing at a piano store. It turns out the teacher who criticized his teacher worked at the store as a piano tuner/technician (turns out he was also a piano teacher). He saw my friend playing and offered the un-solicitated advice. He then asked who my friend studied with...and apparently, he'd heard of my friend's teacher before (though never met him). He pointed out those "mistakes" and called the teaching methods of my friend's teacher "old school" and pointed out that with his own students, he likes to teach out of everything to help the student. I don't know if that's an insult or not...being old school doesn't necessarily mean that the approach is bad. I mentioned this a while ago, but the same thing happened to a student of mine. He was in a store (shopping for a new piano) and the salesman tried to tell him I was teaching him all wrong and try out this lesson workshop or something. In short, my student walked out (not to mention didn't buy a piano from him either) The truth is, it would be fine in this situation to casually chat about the students lessons, maybe have a fun exchange with a few selfless tips thrown in. But that's not what this teacher was doing - he was in effect trying to compete. Where's the productiveness in that? It's not really what's best for the student, is it. The answer is to always do what's best for the student and its up to the teacher to decide whatever that is in every given circumstance.
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Where's the productiveness in that? It's not really what's best for the student, is it.
The answer is to always do what's best for the student and its up to the teacher to decide whatever that is in every given circumstance. What if the student's teacher is in fact teaching them things that will cause them issues?
private piano/voice teacher FT
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