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#1578336 - 12/16/10 09:13 PM How good should your sight-reading skill be?
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
I've heard many people saying piano students should be able to sightread at a difficulty level 1-2 grade lower than their performance pieces. But it's not clear at all what degree of sight-reading skills is acceptable at that difficulty level - Sight-reading at >90% accuracy and right tempo makes it a lot harder than playing at 70% accuracy and tempo...

Also, when you practice sightreading, do you play a lot of pieces which you can read at close to perfection? Or do you play pieces that you can play at 70% accuracy/tempo and try to improve the accuracy and tempo?



Edited by pianoist d'amore (12/16/10 09:14 PM)

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#1578345 - 12/16/10 09:27 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Morodiene Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7496
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
The goal is of course, 100% accuracy at tempo. I think for most people, unless you are in situations where you have to do a lot of sight reading (like accompanying), then being able to play as accurate as possible at tempo is key. Sightreading slowly is good to start with, but as you work on the skill, you really want to be able to play it at tempo on first sight.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1578355 - 12/16/10 09:41 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Morodiene]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
The goal is of course, 100% accuracy at tempo. I think for most people, unless you are in situations where you have to do a lot of sight reading (like accompanying), then being able to play as accurate as possible at tempo is key. Sightreading slowly is good to start with, but as you work on the skill, you really want to be able to play it at tempo on first sight.


Thanks for your reply, Morodiene.

Will you let sight-reading hold back the progress of your students? For example, if a grade 4 student cannot fluently read grade 2-3 pieces, but otherwise ready for learning grade 5 pieces, will you continue assigning grade 4 pieces to him/her and wait until he/she can fluently read grade 3-4 pieces before you assign any grade 5 pieces?

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#1578434 - 12/17/10 12:01 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Artur Gajewski Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 245
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
I don't worry about those things. For me it's a joy to grab my father's old sheet music and know how to play the songs on my piano, even after some hard trying.
_________________________
- Artur Gajewski

Piano Lessons Package for Synthesia

Working on: Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement & Bach's Minuet in G
Current practice: Jaak Sikk's online lessons

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#1578586 - 12/17/10 07:25 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 813
Loc: Bristol, UK
<<I've heard many people saying piano students should be able to sightread at a difficulty level 1-2 grade lower than their performance pieces.>>

Yes. This is formally stated in some examination board schemas and implied in others (where sight-reading tests are analagous to test pieces two grades below).

<<But it's not clear at all what degree of sight-reading skills is acceptable at that difficulty level - Sight-reading at >90% accuracy and right tempo makes it a lot harder than playing at 70% accuracy and tempo...>>

Sight-reading should be 'fluent' but perhaps a little slower than full tempo. If you are "decoding" or "decyphering" whilst sight-reading you are not practicing sight-reading. Some errors such as stopping, restarting losing the rhythm are considered worse than merely hittiing the odd wrong note (and indicative that the material is too hard). I've also seen comparissons drawn with learning a foreign language, where to improve in reading it, you have to be reading at a level you can do at 95% accuracy (apparently).

<<Also, when you practice sightreading, do you play a lot of pieces which you can read at close to perfection? Or do you play pieces that you can play at 70% accuracy/tempo and try to improve the accuracy and tempo?>>

Short answer:

Sight-read a lot of pieces at your "fluency-level".

A somewhat longer answer:

A sight-reading schema worth looking into is that described by Dr Dianne Hardy the "Diagnostic Prescriptive Sight-Reading Program" (DPRSP). If you google this you can find her articles describing it in detail. This involves concurrently working on pieces at three levels.

1. Level 1: This is your sight-reading fluency level. The level you can read and play fluently without stops, restarts, hesitations etc. You can go slightly slower than full tempo and it should be challenging. Daily you sight read 2-pages at this level prima vista. If your fluency level is way below your level for "challenging" pieces then you can double up this task.

2. Level 2: Study and polish a piece one level above the fluency level for 1-week only then move on.

3. Level 3: Study a piece two levels above the fluency level for several weeks then move on.

Test to determine your fluency level. Test yourself with graded materials (sight reading tests or pieces), within the schema your using every 3-4 months. You then
re-jig the 3 levels of pieces based on the achieved fluency level. i.e. if you find that you can sight-read grade 3 fluently, then this becomes the new Level1 and L2 = G4 and L3 = G5 and so on.

This appears to be a hollistic approach, not just integrating sight-reading with studying pieces, but rooting and relating the level of pieces studied to your sight-reading fluency level.

My DIY approach to this is to largely use ABRSM material or related graded materials (both pieces and sight-reading tests). Apparently when well into the scheme you can slot in a "challenging" piece at "Level 4" (3-levels above the fluency reading level). I get the impression that many are working on pieces significantly higher than this (I was). One thing I have tried to do is to avoid memorisation for the level 2 & 3 pieces.

Pros:

1. Sight-reading improves!

2. Score reading improves. I split the 10 minute Level1 study slot so that I study the score for 5 minutes or more away from the piano then sit down and play through. I notice after a couple of months that I'm getting better at "hearing" the piece during the read through.

3. You play a large range of repertoire and find all sorts of patterns and rhythms that your fingers may not be familiar with.

4. You soon find yourself developing better keyboard orientation skills and keeping your eyes on the score and not looking down at the keys.

5. Develops "professionalism". Play the pieces as well as you can even though they may not be to your personal taste.

6. You learn pieces you study quicker.


Cons:

1. "Phase1". The level 1, 2 & 3 approach sounds fine, but there's also Levels -3, -2 & -1 to contend with. i.e. You find that your sight-reading fluency skills are below those of the level-1 pieces. You have to be honest. I found I couldn't read the ABRMS Grade1 pieces fluently enough at prima vista. So I started by working through 3 sight-reading method book series in parallel. Ten method books and 3-months later I'd improved to the point where I could read the G1 pieces and so kicked off the full schema a month or so ago.

2. Time. My study task plan was to originally do 10 minutes for each of the levels. I soon found out that this is OK for level 1, but that level2 requires a minimum of 20 minutes and on day1 of the week its worth doing several slots. Similarly for Level3. Then if you add in studies, scales, arps, sight-reading methods and so forth you soon start clocking up several hours which I struggle to achieve, so I tend to prioritise L1> L2> Technique> L3. Repertoire maintenance has gone by the board (again).

3. Sourcing L1 material. You need to source a lot of material at your fluency Level. I'm taking out oodles of graded books (vol1 or book1) and collections of pieces from the public library. One problem is that the material is often too hard to be played fluently. I had thought that it may be due to patterns or styles that I'm not familiar with until I noticed that a piece from the "Book1" of a series I'm currently working through is listed as an ABRSM Grade 4 in the current syllabus. So I tend to alternate collections with ABRSM exam pieces from the current and previous years (theses only have 9 pieces and at two pages a day it's less than a week's L1 material).

4. "stepping-stone" pieces. Be prepared to play a lot of pieces that you may not even like, but you will discover some gems along the way.
_________________________


Daily ramblings....

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#1578638 - 12/17/10 09:25 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Morodiene Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 7496
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
The goal is of course, 100% accuracy at tempo. I think for most people, unless you are in situations where you have to do a lot of sight reading (like accompanying), then being able to play as accurate as possible at tempo is key. Sightreading slowly is good to start with, but as you work on the skill, you really want to be able to play it at tempo on first sight.


Thanks for your reply, Morodiene.

Will you let sight-reading hold back the progress of your students? For example, if a grade 4 student cannot fluently read grade 2-3 pieces, but otherwise ready for learning grade 5 pieces, will you continue assigning grade 4 pieces to him/her and wait until he/she can fluently read grade 3-4 pieces before you assign any grade 5 pieces?

Not at all. Sight reading is a separate skill from learning a new piece, although if you are better at sight reading, you will be able to learn new pieces faster. However, you can be awful at sight reading and still be playing at an advanced level.

I think many adult beginners focus a lot on sight reading as if that were the key to playing piano well. The only thing that is key is playing lots of music over a period of years. Move forward if you are ready, and continue to work on your sight reading starting at wherever you are currently able to play with a decent amount of accuracy and as close to tempo as possible.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
WMTA member
www.musicperception.com

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#1578644 - 12/17/10 09:35 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Exalted Wombat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 874
Loc: London UK
You learn a piece so you can perform it. You practice sight-reading because....? Get into a position where sight-reading is required, you'll become good at it. If you don't NEED sight-reading, don't worry about it! It's one of many secondary musical skills - jazz improvisation, reading from chord sheets, spontaneous re-harmonisation of a melody, reading from figured bass etc. - that can be either important or irrelevent to what you do with your music.

Don't prepare for it so much - DO IT!

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#1578692 - 12/17/10 11:15 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
It's simplistic to say that sight reading fluency should be two grades below. There is material that is easier for me to sight read, such as Mozart and Haydn sonatas because of the recognizable patterns. Then, there's Debussy (tonnes of accidentals and unfamilliar modes) and Bach (hard to coordinate the two hands and non-intuitive fingering). Being good at sight reading does not make you play better. In fact, you might play worse if you go full-blast into the piece and don't carefully work things out slowly. I was very good at sight reading violin (it is a lot easier) but my playing was terrible. It is a useful skill, especially if you have to perform a lot of pieces quickly.

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#1578895 - 12/17/10 05:15 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Morodiene]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 14715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
The goal is of course, 100% accuracy at tempo.
I think this statement is only meaningful with the addition that the level of the piece is below the pieces studied by the student. Even then I think it's not a realistic for most unless the level is far below pieces that are studied.

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#1578925 - 12/17/10 06:16 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Morodiene]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I think many adult beginners focus a lot on sight reading as if that were the key to playing piano well. The only thing that is key is playing lots of music over a period of years. Move forward if you are ready, and continue to work on your sight reading starting at wherever you are currently able to play with a decent amount of accuracy and as close to tempo as possible.


The concern is that some study shows that many students quit piano study at an intermediate level before they enter the advanced stage because they are very poor sightreaders, which make learning advanced pieces a very painful and slow experience.

At the beginning of their study, they can compensate the lack of sight-reading ability with their superb memory. Like right now, after I play through a piece 4-5 times, I will have the score memorized thoroughly, effortlessly and flawlessly. And I will (as permitted by my teacher) perform from memory thereafter.

But, I think there's a limit to the "memory" approach. While it allows the student to build an impressive repertoire and does not prevent technical and musical advancement in that sense, it doesn't not give the student tools to enjoy music - in other words, the student cannot independently choose learning pieces from large number of piano literature.

I have not known a conservatory whose entrance exam does not include a sight-reading portion. There got to be some importance to it beside the potential to be hired by a cruise ship, I guess.

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#1578942 - 12/17/10 06:42 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 3851
Loc: Arizona.
As primarily a play by ear player, I would suggest to anyone to be able to read music at least good enough to be able to slowly figure the piece out. Even if it's just good enough to eventually memorize the piece.

There is just too much great music out there you may never be exposed to if you only play by ear.


Edited by mr_super-hunky (12/17/10 06:44 PM)

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#1578945 - 12/17/10 06:48 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
joeb84 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Time Out
it should be good. learning music is like learning another language and only playing by ear and not being a good reader of sheet music is like knowing how to speak english but not reading or writing it. no offense to anyone, just my two cents.
_________________________
music is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle

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#1578946 - 12/17/10 06:50 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: EJR]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
EJR, it was exactly the same article that prompted me to rethink about my piano study structure. I think it makes sense to build some sort of pyramid learning structure where you sightread a lot of easy pieces (ok, a little EVERYDAY), playthrough a lot of pieces slightly more difficult (so I'm trying to dedicate 5 hours each week learning 2-3 pieces that are 1-2 grade lower than my lesson pieces by myself, and hopefully dial that down to 1-2 hrs on one piece per week later after I catch up on my sightreading), and then focus on the learning of the instructional pieces, with a side challenging piece to get to if I have extra time.

The only thing that puzzles me is her 3-month per level progress, which seems really aggressive. I wonder if it only applies to the beginning stage of piano study.

Originally Posted By: EJR
<<I've heard many people saying piano students should be able to sightread at a difficulty level 1-2 grade lower than their performance pieces.>>

Yes. This is formally stated in some examination board schemas and implied in others (where sight-reading tests are analagous to test pieces two grades below).

<<But it's not clear at all what degree of sight-reading skills is acceptable at that difficulty level - Sight-reading at >90% accuracy and right tempo makes it a lot harder than playing at 70% accuracy and tempo...>>

Sight-reading should be 'fluent' but perhaps a little slower than full tempo. If you are "decoding" or "decyphering" whilst sight-reading you are not practicing sight-reading. Some errors such as stopping, restarting losing the rhythm are considered worse than merely hittiing the odd wrong note (and indicative that the material is too hard). I've also seen comparissons drawn with learning a foreign language, where to improve in reading it, you have to be reading at a level you can do at 95% accuracy (apparently).

<<Also, when you practice sightreading, do you play a lot of pieces which you can read at close to perfection? Or do you play pieces that you can play at 70% accuracy/tempo and try to improve the accuracy and tempo?>>

Short answer:

Sight-read a lot of pieces at your "fluency-level".

A somewhat longer answer:

A sight-reading schema worth looking into is that described by Dr Dianne Hardy the "Diagnostic Prescriptive Sight-Reading Program" (DPRSP). If you google this you can find her articles describing it in detail. This involves concurrently working on pieces at three levels.

1. Level 1: This is your sight-reading fluency level. The level you can read and play fluently without stops, restarts, hesitations etc. You can go slightly slower than full tempo and it should be challenging. Daily you sight read 2-pages at this level prima vista. If your fluency level is way below your level for "challenging" pieces then you can double up this task.

2. Level 2: Study and polish a piece one level above the fluency level for 1-week only then move on.

3. Level 3: Study a piece two levels above the fluency level for several weeks then move on.

Test to determine your fluency level. Test yourself with graded materials (sight reading tests or pieces), within the schema your using every 3-4 months. You then
re-jig the 3 levels of pieces based on the achieved fluency level. i.e. if you find that you can sight-read grade 3 fluently, then this becomes the new Level1 and L2 = G4 and L3 = G5 and so on.

This appears to be a hollistic approach, not just integrating sight-reading with studying pieces, but rooting and relating the level of pieces studied to your sight-reading fluency level.

My DIY approach to this is to largely use ABRSM material or related graded materials (both pieces and sight-reading tests). Apparently when well into the scheme you can slot in a "challenging" piece at "Level 4" (3-levels above the fluency reading level). I get the impression that many are working on pieces significantly higher than this (I was). One thing I have tried to do is to avoid memorisation for the level 2 & 3 pieces.

Pros:

1. Sight-reading improves!

2. Score reading improves. I split the 10 minute Level1 study slot so that I study the score for 5 minutes or more away from the piano then sit down and play through. I notice after a couple of months that I'm getting better at "hearing" the piece during the read through.

3. You play a large range of repertoire and find all sorts of patterns and rhythms that your fingers may not be familiar with.

4. You soon find yourself developing better keyboard orientation skills and keeping your eyes on the score and not looking down at the keys.

5. Develops "professionalism". Play the pieces as well as you can even though they may not be to your personal taste.

6. You learn pieces you study quicker.


Cons:

1. "Phase1". The level 1, 2 & 3 approach sounds fine, but there's also Levels -3, -2 & -1 to contend with. i.e. You find that your sight-reading fluency skills are below those of the level-1 pieces. You have to be honest. I found I couldn't read the ABRMS Grade1 pieces fluently enough at prima vista. So I started by working through 3 sight-reading method book series in parallel. Ten method books and 3-months later I'd improved to the point where I could read the G1 pieces and so kicked off the full schema a month or so ago.

2. Time. My study task plan was to originally do 10 minutes for each of the levels. I soon found out that this is OK for level 1, but that level2 requires a minimum of 20 minutes and on day1 of the week its worth doing several slots. Similarly for Level3. Then if you add in studies, scales, arps, sight-reading methods and so forth you soon start clocking up several hours which I struggle to achieve, so I tend to prioritise L1> L2> Technique> L3. Repertoire maintenance has gone by the board (again).

3. Sourcing L1 material. You need to source a lot of material at your fluency Level. I'm taking out oodles of graded books (vol1 or book1) and collections of pieces from the public library. One problem is that the material is often too hard to be played fluently. I had thought that it may be due to patterns or styles that I'm not familiar with until I noticed that a piece from the "Book1" of a series I'm currently working through is listed as an ABRSM Grade 4 in the current syllabus. So I tend to alternate collections with ABRSM exam pieces from the current and previous years (theses only have 9 pieces and at two pages a day it's less than a week's L1 material).

4. "stepping-stone" pieces. Be prepared to play a lot of pieces that you may not even like, but you will discover some gems along the way.


Edited by pianoist d'amore (12/17/10 06:54 PM)

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#1578947 - 12/17/10 06:53 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: joeb84]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: joeb84
it should be good. learning music is like learning another language and only playing by ear and not being a good reader of sheet music is like knowing how to speak english but not reading or writing it. no offense to anyone, just my two cents.


You won't offend anyone as those who can only "speak" English but cannot "read" will not be visiting this forum!

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#1578957 - 12/17/10 07:05 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 3851
Loc: Arizona.
joe84, what you say makes sense...sort of!

You see, if you can only play by ear, you really have no way of performing a piece you have never heard audibly.

Now, if you give me a written score, I can SLOWLY read it. Enough to get the jist of the melody/tempo etc and actually play it, albeit slowly with many-O-mistakes!

At this point I will probably "take off" with the piece by ear since I now know where the piece is going and what it sounds like. Had I not been able to read music at all, I never would have been able to play the piece since I never heard it....makes sense right?

My point: If you cannot read music at all but you can play by ear, you will be forced to listen to everything in full before you can even make a play by ear attempt at it. You won't have any sort of written guide to follow at all.

While it is obviously better to sightread music well as opposed to poorly, you at least won't miss out on the piece to begin with so long as you can somewhat sightread it.

"Somewhat" means you CAN read it, just not good enough to play it up to speed without making mistakes. It also assumes you are able to play by ear fairly well to make up for the poor sightreading abilities.

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#1578977 - 12/17/10 07:55 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
joeb84 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Time Out
i can barely read a book, let alone a piece of sheet music on sight lol.
_________________________
music is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle

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#1579014 - 12/17/10 08:55 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: joeb84]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: joeb84
i can barely read a book, let alone a piece of sheet music on sight lol.


I cannot read either and pretty much have all the poor reading habits listed on this website and have carried them all over to my piano sight-reading... //sigh
1) Reading note by note
2) Sub-vocalization
3) Inefficient eye motion
4) Regression
5) Poor Concentration
6) Approaching reading linearly - Well, not entirely. I read measure by measure and group notes in treble clef and bass clef separately, but I think what needs to happen if I ever want to sighreading fast to mix the treble and bass into one big note group? Then I won't need to waste anytime trying to figure out how to put the treble group notes together with the bass group notes. Some teacher teaches a zigzag reading sequence that jumps up and down between the clefs, which really makes it even more messy for me.

I've made some improvements on (1)(4)(6). (3) and (5) feel more or less like physical demands which I naturally do better when I am not tired.

But (2) is the most difficult and controversial one to get rid of. That is probably the reason why reading grand staff is so difficult for me b/c a person cannot sub-vocal two voices in human mind. On the other hand, I feel that subconscious sub-vocalization of the melody actually helps me play some cantabile pieces really well. So I'm not sure I want to get rid of that completely either... I guess I need some sort of switch to turn the sub-vocalization on/off easily. smile

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#1579032 - 12/17/10 09:25 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
joeb84 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Time Out
Originally Posted By: pianoist d'amore
Originally Posted By: joeb84
i can barely read a book, let alone a piece of sheet music on sight lol.


I cannot read either and pretty much have all the poor reading habits listed on this website and have carried them all over to my piano sight-reading... //sigh
1) Reading note by note
2) Sub-vocalization
3) Inefficient eye motion
4) Regression
5) Poor Concentration
6) Approaching reading linearly - Well, not entirely. I read measure by measure and group notes in treble clef and bass clef separately, but I think what needs to happen if I ever want to sighreading fast to mix the treble and bass into one big note group? Then I won't need to waste anytime trying to figure out how to put the treble group notes together with the bass group notes. Some teacher teaches a zigzag reading sequence that jumps up and down between the clefs, which really makes it even more messy for me.

I've made some improvements on (1)(4)(6). (3) and (5) feel more or less like physical demands which I naturally do better when I am not tired.

But (2) is the most difficult and controversial one to get rid of. That is probably the reason why reading grand staff is so difficult for me b/c a person cannot sub-vocal two voices in human mind. On the other hand, I feel that subconscious sub-vocalization of the melody actually helps me play some cantabile pieces really well. So I'm not sure I want to get rid of that completely either... I guess I need some sort of switch to turn the sub-vocalization on/off easily. smile


yeah i reckon it just takes honestly like years and years of time and practice and eventually it becomes second nature, just like how we read and write english. think about how long it took us to learn that as children. but nonetheless, music is somewhat more challenging than just learning another language. like let's say someone is learning to speak spanish. before they can speak it fluently and fast, they have to start out very slow. learning to speak the language of music is a little bit more difficult because it's almost like trying to do 3 things or more at once, very overwhelming.

edit: wish i started young i'd have this thing down by now for sure.
_________________________
music is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle

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#1579094 - 12/17/10 11:29 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Mark... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 3678
How long does it take for a growing child to read regular literature?
_________________________


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#1579106 - 12/17/10 11:58 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 3851
Loc: Arizona.
Oh Mark, that is so true...(your presumed meaning).

Here I am after playing for 5 years just getting by and then I hear a sterotypical 8 year old asian girl play (who also has played for 5 years) and the difference in our abilites is astronomical. I am SO much better!...........ok I'm not. They would destroy me! No contest. Not in the same galaxy even.

Obviously there would be a huge differences in everything. Practice time, instruction/formal lessons etc.

It does go to show you what people are actually capable of however. At least the young ones.

Actually, I'd love to see someone start out at say age 45 and then in 5 years be incredible. It would be a full time job with lots of overtime and weekends worth of work at the very least!

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#1579138 - 12/18/10 01:14 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 62
Loc: West Orange, NJ
I always instill sight reading to my students. The only time they play songs well beyond their sight reading ability is for special occasions; i.e. Christmas, recital, or at their request.
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#1579156 - 12/18/10 01:42 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Motorama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Actually, I'd love to see someone start out at say age 45 and then in 5 years be incredible. It would be a full time job with lots of overtime and weekends worth of work at the very least!


The difference between the child and the 45 years old is that the child has more time to practice and focus on piano, less worries distracting him/her, less limiting beliefs holding him/her down and a less competitive attitude (doesn't measure him/herself up against other skills)

But the thing about the sponge-brain and the first three years have been pretty much debanked. What really matters in that department is that the child is always mentally stimulated, is going to school and learning new things while most adults just let their brains rot.

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#1579159 - 12/18/10 01:47 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: joeb84]
Motorama Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: joeb84

yeah i reckon it just takes honestly like years and years of time and practice and eventually it becomes second nature, just like how we read and write english. think about how long it took us to learn that as children.


Not sure, I know people who graduated on piano performance and composition but they can't sightread very complex pieces, because there isn't enough time to immediately grasp the complex structures of note patterns in both hands.

Quote:
but nonetheless, music is somewhat more challenging than just learning another language.


Music is a lot more challenging and one will never read music like he/she reads a book. In a book you're going to find the same exact words belonging to the language the book is written in. There are many but they're limited and 80% of all the words in an article or book are the kind you're going to use everyday. But with music, no matter if you get used to some patterns that you'll find in other similar pieces, there will always be a lot of new stuff, lot of new patterns to decipher or notes so fast your eyes can't possible see them all at once. In fact even the best book reader, would do slowly and make mistake if he was reading a book full of new medical terms. Well, music is like that.

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#1579205 - 12/18/10 04:17 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: joeb84]
pianoist d'amore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/10
Posts: 179
Loc: San Jose + El Macero, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: joeb84

yeah i reckon it just takes honestly like years and years of time and practice and eventually it becomes second nature, just like how we read and write english. think about how long it took us to learn that as children. but nonetheless, music is somewhat more challenging than just learning another language. like let's say someone is learning to speak spanish. before they can speak it fluently and fast, they have to start out very slow. learning to speak the language of music is a little bit more difficult because it's almost like trying to do 3 things or more at once, very overwhelming.


You are absolutely right. There are specific parts of human brain that is in charge of language processing. Other parts of the brain are in charge of motor skills. Yet other parts of the brain are in charge of emotions... It's been well-established that music is a whole-brain activity that makes your entire brain to work.

Some people have a strong emotion brain and naturally play very musically. Some people have a strong motor brain and display dazzling techniques. Some people have strong ears. Some have better memories. Some are better readers. I guess the point is to know who you are and get better at your weakest link and feel blessed for your strength.




Edited by pianoist d'amore (12/18/10 04:21 AM)

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#1579329 - 12/18/10 09:19 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 813
Loc: Bristol, UK
<<Pyramid>>

+1 Exactly!

<<The only thing that puzzles me is her 3-month per level progress, which seems really aggressive. I wonder if it only applies to the beginning stage of piano study.>>

I agree completely. But it is dependant on passing the test of graded pieces. She seems to believe that if you put in the work that it should happen as a matter of course (and if not you weren't putting in the work!). But if the SR improves, I do wonder what it will be like doing the monthly pieces in a week and sight-reading the pieces that currently take a week?

I'm taking a very simplistic route through this. If my grade has improved when I take the next DIY DPRSP-test (end of February) then I'll krank the grades for each of the Levels. The worry is that I stick at the current grade and have to track down another 150-200 Grade 1 pieces to play before the next quarterly test?




Edited by EJR (12/18/10 09:20 AM)
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#1579431 - 12/18/10 01:19 PM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Motorama]
joeb84 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1361
Loc: Time Out
Originally Posted By: Motorama
Originally Posted By: mr_super-hunky

Actually, I'd love to see someone start out at say age 45 and then in 5 years be incredible. It would be a full time job with lots of overtime and weekends worth of work at the very least!


The difference between the child and the 45 years old is that the child has more time to practice and focus on piano, less worries distracting him/her, less limiting beliefs holding him/her down and a less competitive attitude (doesn't measure him/herself up against other skills)

But the thing about the sponge-brain and the first three years have been pretty much debanked. What really matters in that department is that the child is always mentally stimulated, is going to school and learning new things while most adults just let their brains rot.


this. thumb
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#1580469 - 12/20/10 07:32 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Motorama]
Exalted Wombat Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 874
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Motorama
Music is a lot more challenging and one will never read music like he/she reads a book. In a book you're going to find the same exact words belonging to the language the book is written in. There are many but they're limited and 80% of all the words in an article or book are the kind you're going to use everyday. But with music, no matter if you get used to some patterns that you'll find in other similar pieces, there will always be a lot of new stuff, lot of new patterns to decipher or notes so fast your eyes can't possible see them all at once. In fact even the best book reader, would do slowly and make mistake if he was reading a book full of new medical terms. Well, music is like that.


If you extend your music/book analogy to include the fact that books are written in many languages - still the normal alphabet, but unfamiliar patterns - I think it will stand up better! I can scan-read in English. Struggle through word-by word in French. But if I had more occasion to read French literature, it would improve.

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#1580561 - 12/20/10 11:29 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Infinity]
music32 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 919
Loc: El Cerrito, California
Agree, Sight--reading is great skill to cultivate..but also sightsinging, solfeggio, which all help sight reading.. not to mention, theory knowledge, etc.

Shirley K
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#1581077 - 12/21/10 12:28 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: pianoist d'amore]
Infinity Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 62
Loc: West Orange, NJ
Again, I'll always say sight reading "rules"! Don't expect to S.R. at the same level that you can play rehearsed. But it is a good working goal to have.
_________________________
Infinity
Pianist and Teacher
West Orange, NJ
www.pianolessonsnj.com

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#1581098 - 12/21/10 01:37 AM Re: How good should your sight-reading skill be? [Re: Infinity]
RaindropPrelude Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Canada
I believe you are expected as a student to read a level or two below, but I think it will always depend on how familiar the student is with the type of piece they're sight reading. I find classical repertoire very easy to sight read, but more modern and contemporary pieces are more of a struggle to attain 80-90% accuracy. Classical pieces will always be more familiar, but the more modern the piece, the more obscure and unfamiliar the type of music it becomes.
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