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#1579999 - 12/19/10 12:45 PM
Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
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Full Member
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Canada
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturem...hall-debut.htmlThis makes me so sad. I wasn't even aware this had happened.
_________________________
"Music is an art of emotion, of nobility, of dignity, of greatness, of love, of tenderness - all that must be brought out in music...but never show off!" - Arthur Rubinstein
Currently working on:
Liszt's - Annees de Pelerinage, Premiere Annee - 1: Chapelle de Guillaume Tell
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#1580018 - 12/19/10 01:10 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1034
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
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He went to the wrong place. He should have come to Canada instead!
_________________________
♫♫♫ ♫♫♫ YAMAHA C2M PE
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#1580036 - 12/19/10 01:33 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19476
Loc: Kansas
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that story was posted a while ago.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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#1580041 - 12/19/10 01:40 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
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Hmm.... I bet he had a lot of refunds to give!
What an interesting story. The piano bit was quite harsh, but the whole way he acted did seem quite unprofessional.
_________________________
______ Home - 1905 Story and Clark Art Case  --NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!)  Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand Church (the organ I practice on)- 1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ
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#1580064 - 12/19/10 02:14 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mattardo]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1034
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
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It's amazing how many people take the freedom of speech America grants, and then uses it to trash it. Biting the hand that feeds - especially for a touring foreign pianist who is making money off of America. And some Americans still don't understand why that happens...and think it's everyone else's fault.
_________________________
♫♫♫ ♫♫♫ YAMAHA C2M PE
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#1580074 - 12/19/10 02:26 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mattardo]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 984
Loc: UK
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It's amazing how many people take the freedom of speech America grants, and then uses it to trash it. Biting the hand that feeds - especially for a touring foreign pianist who is making money off of America. People go to Zimmerman's concerts because they want to, not because they're doing him a favour. Biting the hand that feeds it?
_________________________
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
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#1580089 - 12/19/10 02:58 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
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I think this story would have elicited a VERY different response if it had been an American pianist refusing to go to some foreign country because their customs agents destroyed his piano and that same foreign country (not a US ally) had large army bases in New York and California.
Regarding freedom of speech: the United States did not grant Mr Zimerman anything, it only recognized a right he already has because he is alive.
It is not a favour to be allowed to play in the United States, it is a business deal. Zimerman has concluded that the deal is not worth it for him because of various kinds of high costs of doing business there. This "hand that fed him" was holding a knife, as far as he was concerned.
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#1580112 - 12/19/10 03:34 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
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Interesting that the OP focuses on that part of the story ("piano destroyed"), because there's another major part also. Of course it's possible that the more recent thing arose in part from what was done to his piano after 9/11, although maybe that's being too analytic.
I hadn't heard any of these things, and it's all interesting. I'll refrain from taking a stand on any of it, because that's not what I'm here for (which of course is also a main possible objection to what he did at the concert), but I don't mind others doing it and I'll be interested to see the views.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1580186 - 12/19/10 05:46 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3992
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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Well, since he comes from Poland he probably has more personal family history with a bordering country that took up residence in his native land. Some guests come uninvited and just don't know when to leave.  When the US decides to visit a county without an invitation we always seem to think that it's OK even if our stay turns out to be completely bogus.
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#1580187 - 12/19/10 05:47 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 4622
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
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You're welcome, pl (may I just abbreviate your name to that? Most just call me OSK or Soda anyway). I enjoy reading his blog posts.
_________________________
Discontinuing the streaming practice for now, unless a few members PM me and still want me to do it.
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#1580194 - 12/19/10 05:57 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Dave Horne]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 1997
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Well, since he comes from Poland he probably has more personal family history with a bordering country that took up residence in his native land. Some guests come uninvited and just don't know when to leave.  When the US decides to visit a county without an invitation we always seem to think that it's OK even if our stay turns out to be completely bogus. A history of being conquered by other countries is no excuse, especially for a person with such an international career and exposure to so many cultures and countries. Besides, his own country has invited the US presence. A US presence was never forced on Poland.
I don't really think a concert is a good time for discussing one's political views. In fact, someone as famous in the classical music world as Zimerman might have been able to convince more people of his views in an essay or interview.
I agree. Unfortunately outbursts like this happen when a person is unable to make sense of emotions they're having; either they don't have support and should see a therapist or, frankly, they're just not smart enough to make sense of everything they're experiencing and do the rational thing. It's borderline mental illness. Gibbons compares it to anti-Semitism, which is not far off. Recently some people have been referring, I think correctly, to anti-Semitism as a kind of illness.
Edited by charleslang (12/19/10 06:04 PM)
_________________________
CL
Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Baldwin Model R (1974), Rieger-Kloss vertical
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#1580205 - 12/19/10 06:22 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 984
Loc: UK
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I wouldn't say anti-semitism is an illness, it's more of just an indulgence in the wrong choice, brought on by a vareity of reasons. It's normal; people do the same thing all the time but not necessary against a specific group of people (ie Jews). Maybe they do it to gain some sense of power? which is a normal human reaction to counter their insecurity. Not that i'm a psychologist or anything, just my opinion.
_________________________
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
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#1580206 - 12/19/10 06:22 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 984
Loc: UK
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I may have digressed, in which case i apologise!! Sorry.
_________________________
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
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#1580276 - 12/19/10 08:16 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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Full Member
Registered: 06/13/09
Posts: 149
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"Since then he has shipped his pianos in parts, which he reassembles by hand after he lands. He also drives the truck himself when he carries his instrument from city to city over land, as he did after playing a recital in Berkeley on Friday."
OK, between that activity and various weird comments in interviews ("Today's recording techniques are too good"), not to mention the political outbursts at concerts, I think he's just plain nuts. I now feel better than ever for selling one of his out of print CDs (Brahms' Sonatas) on Amazon for $75!!
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#1580323 - 12/19/10 09:54 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: TheHappyMoron]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1301
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It's amazing how many people take the freedom of speech America grants, and then uses it to trash it. Biting the hand that feeds - especially for a touring foreign pianist who is making money off of America. People go to Zimmerman's concerts because they want to, not because they're doing him a favour. Biting the hand that feeds it? Zimmerman makes money by touring - probably a lot more money than his recordings bring him. It's usually the same for any musician, whether they are classical, rock, or pop - albums just increase public awareness for the inevitable tours. They are usually willing to let the record company make the larger amount of money on the albums, knowing that they'll be making more on their tours. So, yes - you are biting the hand that feeds when you throw a temper tantrum on stage and declare your disdain for the people who are paying you money. It's disrespectful to the audience, the venue which is hosting you, and to the country that permits you to legally perform and earn money in that country. There's no such thing as a natural-right to enter another country and then earn money - it's usually granted through a legal process involving much paper work, and it's not considered a 'right'. The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not. Anyways, the point I was making is that it's silly to bite the hand that feeds. I hope that clarified things... He'll just have to make up for the lost revenue by focusing on non-American venues, obviously. It's just a shame when musicians enter into politics. Do what you do best, concert pianists: play the piano and leave the politics alone. It's annoying when composers start tackling politics, not to mention musicians getting in on the act.... 
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#1580324 - 12/19/10 09:56 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 1096
Loc: Canada
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^^ make that 'it's annoying when ANYBODY starts tackling politics....it's an ugly zone.
_________________________
Working on: Franck - Violin Sonata Liszt - Ballade no. 2 Schumann - Fantasie Rachmaninoff- Concerto no.2
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#1580343 - 12/19/10 11:13 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: charleslang]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
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Well, since he comes from Poland he probably has more personal family history with a bordering country that took up residence in his native land.... A history of being conquered by other countries is no excuse.... It may or may not be an excuse, depending on what we mean by that, but it's a reason.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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#1580347 - 12/19/10 11:36 PM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mark_C]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 1997
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Well, since he comes from Poland he probably has more personal family history with a bordering country that took up residence in his native land.... A history of being conquered by other countries is no excuse.... It may or may not be an excuse, depending on what we mean by that, but it's a reason. It alone is no explanation for his behavior; most people from Poland are not bigoted like that, of course. It may be one of several factors that contributed to his behavior. As for the others, my claim has been that one of them is his own moral failing. As an internationally successful artist he has had every opportunity to avoid this kind of situation. He failed. That is the sense in which I mean his background is "no excuse" (actually this was clear in my earlier post). I would be crazy not to accept that he could repair his moral standing by apologizing. I would be happy to forgive him. But he did the wrong thing.
_________________________
CL
Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Baldwin Model R (1974), Rieger-Kloss vertical
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#1580359 - 12/20/10 12:37 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Kuanpiano]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1034
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
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^^ make that 'it's annoying when ANYBODY starts tackling politics....it's an ugly zone. Replace 'ANYBODY' with 'forum members'. This thread should be shut down before it's too late.
_________________________
♫♫♫ ♫♫♫ YAMAHA C2M PE
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#1580360 - 12/20/10 12:45 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Orange Soda King]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
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Jack Gibbon's post is extremely sensible.
_________________________
Current: Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest") Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1) Next in line: Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23 Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1) Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
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#1580361 - 12/20/10 12:46 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mattardo]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
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Anyways, the point I was making is that it's silly to bite the hand that feeds. I hope that clarified things...
Since we are apparently simply re-stating points, if the "hand that feeds" is holding a knife, then what?
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)
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#1580391 - 12/20/10 02:57 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: liszt85]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5429
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Jack Gibbon's post is extremely sensible. I thought it was stupid and self-serving twaddle that was at least as self-righteous as Zimerman's outburst. And probably disingenuous, as well - what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway. And that weird detour into anti-Webern guilt-by-association was just plain icky. And what's with a "blog" that has a gap from March to October - that's false advertising, if you ask me (unless you are as brilliant a writer as Denk, which Gibbons isn't even within shouting range of being).
Edited by wr (12/20/10 05:14 AM)
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#1580412 - 12/20/10 04:23 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mattardo]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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It's amazing how many people take the freedom of speech America grants, and then uses it to trash it. Biting the hand that feeds - especially for a touring foreign pianist who is making money off of America. People go to Zimmerman's concerts because they want to, not because they're doing him a favour. Biting the hand that feeds it? Zimmerman makes money by touring - probably a lot more money than his recordings bring him. It's usually the same for any musician, whether they are classical, rock, or pop - albums just increase public awareness for the inevitable tours. They are usually willing to let the record company make the larger amount of money on the albums, knowing that they'll be making more on their tours. So, yes - you are biting the hand that feeds when you throw a temper tantrum on stage and declare your disdain for the people who are paying you money. It's disrespectful to the audience, the venue which is hosting you, and to the country that permits you to legally perform and earn money in that country. There's no such thing as a natural-right to enter another country and then earn money - it's usually granted through a legal process involving much paper work, and it's not considered a 'right'. The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not. Anyways, the point I was making is that it's silly to bite the hand that feeds. I hope that clarified things... He'll just have to make up for the lost revenue by focusing on non-American venues, obviously. It's just a shame when musicians enter into politics. Do what you do best, concert pianists: play the piano and leave the politics alone. It's annoying when composers start tackling politics, not to mention musicians getting in on the act.... Let me guess...you voted for Bush didn't ya?
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1580415 - 12/20/10 04:31 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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This is old news, but it IS unfortunate, because those of us living in the U.S. may never have the opportunity to hear one of the world's greatest living pianists perform live again (unless, of course, we're willing to travel).
I have no problem, whatsoever, with Zimerman, or his views. I do believe he could have made his feelings known off stage, but I also don't blame him for using the stage to bring attention to those feelings. He can and should be able to say whatever he wants to say anywhere he wants to say it.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1580418 - 12/20/10 04:37 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mattardo]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not.
Wait...how in the hell did I miss this??? Freedom of speech is something that should be governed and is GIVEN to people and better yet is something that is given based on the WHIM of whomever is in power??? Wow. I suppose I shouldn't be completely surprised having read other statements you've made in the past. Enjoy your rock.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1580472 - 12/20/10 07:43 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: Mattardo]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 4478
Loc: St. Louis area
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The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not. You must have voted for Obama. Freedom of speech is a right with which you are born. Dictatorial leftists would love to remove it, and are trying to silence dissenting speech forever.
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#1580474 - 12/20/10 07:55 AM
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
[Re: RaindropPrelude]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 1509
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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I find Zimerman's stance is ridiculous because the US is an incredibly diverse country. Why would you want to specifically punish music fans for what their government does (they are the only ones impacted by his decision)? What point is he really making? That he can lump all the people of the United States into one basket and say that he has a philosophical problem with all of them? It's all good and well to be highly principled and act on your morals, but they should make sense. By withdrawing from any future involvement with the US, he has guaranteed that he will be irrelevant there from now on. If he thought about it, he'd probably find reasons to object to a lot of countries' policies, but he's chosen to land the biggest fish to stake his claim for notoriety.
He could have made the same point about his feelings on the policies of recent US governments in an appropriate forum and continued to play concerts for his many US fans. He is being quite ungrateful to his fans and is unnecessarily grandstanding. He sounds capricious and unbalanced from what I have read so far. I'm not impressed.
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