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Windchime,

Be very wary of purchasing any piano you have not actually seen and played - the actual instrument not just same model number etc.

You should ask the dealer to get one in, or find a dealer that has one on the shop floor already, ensure it is properly prepped and tuned, and if you like it - purchase that specific instrument - write down the serial number so you know you are getting the same piano!

Happy piano shopping and good luck with your purchase - personally I would go for the K3 over the U1, but I prefer the tone on the Kawai

Dear Windchime,
Fully agree with Genaa.

NEVER buy a piano you have not played or listen to. Pianos of the same model can sound rather different and you have to ensure it IS the piano you like. The best way to buy a piano is ask the piano teacher to try or get someone who has played for quite a few years to know the difference in sound and touch.

Of the Kawai pianos, K3 or K5 is probably ok for your child. I (biasly) dislike Yamaha.

A possible piano within your budget is Petrof 125, which I believe is about 6-8K.
Some older Kawai or Yamaha may be worth considering, provided they are well taken care of and the mechanism is good.

I recently helped a friend select an Apollo (supposed to be better and more famous than Kawai and Yamaha in Japan) upright grand (130cm) at a very good price.. but this was in Shanghai. So don't dismiss the choice of old pianos.

Hope I am not adding to the confusion here...

Happy piano shopping.

Thanks Genaa & mokipooh.
At this moment, I'm inclined towards K3. I'm afraid that as a non-musically trained person, I'm not able to discern subtle differences in the sound.

The sales person told me that they would tune the new piano before delivering it,and that they could send a tech to check the tuning once it delivered to my house when i raised my concernif tuning would be affected during teh delevery process. is this good enough?

Hi I'm new to this forum. Have been following this thread & find it very informative. Tks all!

Shoppg for a gd upright as I want to rekindle my piano playg hobby. Made few decisions:
1. New instead of used as I don't intend to change after this purchase unless I upgrade to grand
2. Won't consider grand at this pt due to space constraint
3. K8 over YUS5 (that's my budget currently)

I'm now caught in 2 minds at the final stage of the decision making process. Tried the Schimmels at Chiu Piano. The 125ht model has tone that is superior to K8 but I don't think the $4.5K premium over K8 is worth it.

What caught my attention was the 131ht Schimmel (didn't ask the exact model). The tone is very delightful and crispy clear compared to K8. Solid base notes and the touch is extremely responsive and clean. I really like it but problem is I have to double my budget (was quoted S$25K) Though I don't ve to sell my car to get it, its still a very big sum of money to me.

Friends said its too ex for hobby. I too feel that it may be extravagant esp now the economy so bad and I'm not technically very good in playing (gr8 when I was young but has stopped for many years). Mr Chui said you don't ve to be advance player to own a quality german piano - salesman talk but he may have a point. What do you guys think?

1 other question: do people typically negotiate price when buying a new piano?

Hope to get my piano soon....Thanks all in advance!

Hello! I've also been reading this thread all night log yesterday.

I'm a grade-5 student looking to buy brand new piano here. However I don't have any knowledge how to choose piano to buy

Back in my home country I have 2 Yamaha (1 grand, 1 upright) so I'd like to venture to something else. My first choice fell to Kawai, though after trying Hailun 125 it somehow shifted.

my concern is the same as everybody else about Hailun -- Chinese brand. However, budget wise, Hailun is a really good choice.

I shortlisted my choice to be Kawai k-3 and Hailun HL125.
Any opinion are appreciated
thanks!

Hi,
May I know where may I find Hailun pianos in Singapore?

PianoMaster International
1016 Geylang East Ave 3
showroom #01-143

Hey Bihua, congrats on your purchase!
May you enjoy your piano very much!

Thoughts about a couple of things:

Never buy a piano you've not played. Mostly true, even for high-end brands. But some of you may know that I bought a piano $ight unseen, solely on the reputation of the manufacturer. And I couldn't be happier.

On the other hand, don't assume that what you play in the showroom is representative of what a particular brand/model is capable of. It is surprising (or maybe not) how little prep is done on showroom pianos in Singapore. Even many of the high-end pianos I have played in showrooms could have been in much better shape.

Ask your piano teacher for advice when buying a piano. At the risk of upsetting piano teachers in Singapore I'd have to say 'maybe'. The advice your teacher can give is limited by his/her own experience and knowledge. You should find out how much your piano teacher knows about pianos and piano technology in general. You should also find out what is the best piano that your teacher has played on, and what other brands and models he/she has experience with.

Windchime,

Did you read the previous posts?

You wrote:

"The sales person told me that they would tune the new piano before delivering it,and that they could send a tech to check the tuning once it delivered to my house when i raised my concern if tuning would be affected during teh delevery process. is this good enough?"

You must be kidding; how can JUST A MERE TUNING for a new piano be "good enough" prep?

I wrote before:

The piano MUST be prep by the dealer PRIOR to purchase and delivery.

And what does a prep consist of? Read this:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/16/41.html

Of course, a proper prep work on new pianos COSTS MONEY i.e. technicians to work on a piano, which is not economically beneficial for piano dealers in Singapore; what Singaporean piano dealers usually give your new piano is not a prep, but a mere tuning.

Your sales person call that (or implied) a "prep?"

I can't help steaming from my ears when I hear that; what lies!

Why don't you ask the "sales person" for an official preparation list from the piano manufacturer? All pianos come with a standard "to-do" list for piano dealers to PREP THE PIANO BEFORE SELLING IT TO YOU.

ASK YOUR SALESMAN FOR THIS PREP LIST, AND SEE HOW HE REACTS.

Forgive me, but I have no faith in most piano dealers in Singapore.

@ppp: The prep list that you linked to is for a grand piano. And its from a dealer who takes great pride in making sure that the pianos that go out his door are in the best possible shape.

Most dealers of high-volume consumer brands such as the various Asian manufacturers don't do much prep other than to tune the piano before and after delivery. Its largely the same in Singapore as it is in the U.S. and elsewhere. I hope that they at least check that the action geometry is within specs, but I don't know if they even do that.

Sadly, in Singapore, even high-end pianos don't get much prep either, as you've found out yourself with your Shigeru Kawai. There are a couple of dealers/brands that do more than uncrate, tune and clean, but they are the exceptions.

What's even worse is that the vast majority of piano buyers don't know enough about how their pianos should/could be performing to be able to spot problems during the warranty period. So, those 5 year warranties (which are not transferable!) are pretty much meaningless unless your piano explodes and falls into a heap.

The long and the short of it is that if the buyer doesn't know any better then ignorance is bliss, for both the buyer and the dealer!

Incidentally, new pianos do take many months to settle in and WILL require regulation & voicing at 6 months and 1 year (assuming the instrument is played a reasonable amount). One lady sales rep once told me that pianos don't need breaking/settling in periods! Give your new piano time to bloom, as it will, over the course of a year or two, or more.

Hello!
I just stumbled upon a Germany upright Schweizerstein 133 used piano. Dealer said it's around 12 years. I tried playing and the touch is really good. The tone is also very clear and rich

What is the usual price for piano with this spec? I'm not really sure because the price offered is somehow not so high but then again I dont know the market price for used germany piano

I hope you can give feedback on this piano . Thanks!

edit: I googled online and found out it is listed in a japanese brand site. Is this a Japanese brand or a German brand?

Hi ppp:

Wow! Cool down. It's really a daunting task for those of us who are 1st time buyer, non-piano player in buying first piano. We do not know what is the std practice in this industry. Agree with Digitus, we may not detect the 'subtle' flaws in the piano. Also because we're not experts ( even after reading and rereading the thread), the sales persons are also not likely to go into too much technicality, we are also nt able to question too much. Honestly, not sure if all sales persons are aware what goes in the warehouse for delivery, some are part timers. When dealing with layman, salesperson would assure buyers based on their reputation solely.

So, how do we get this good service which is not the norm?

Thanks to this forum, I've already learnt quite a bit. Got myself the Larry Fine Pianobook, am reading it now, hope to be more aware though definitely not expert.

Merry Christmas & happy New Year to all!

similaly, when you buy a car, do you:

1)take a measuring tape to measure the turning radius - 4.8m ??

2)measure the actual length or wheel base compared to specf??

3)measure the ground clearence or toe angle??

4)take the car to do a dyno test for it's claim power(kW) and max torque?

5)do a drag test to see if the 0-100km/h is actually 9.8sec according to the catalog?

6)take a test drive at the ECP to check if the odometer is exactly 1km at every "ECP10km ECP11km ECP12km"sign ??

7)Expect the mechanic to check every bolts is tighten to torque specf indicated by the sevice manual?

8)test the exhaust emission is within garment enviromental allowance ??

9)Test the fuel tank is exactly 50l as stated in the specf?

10) go to NS highway or pasir gudang to do a top speed test ??

If anyone of the items is out of specf, call borneo motor to send a service engineer to rectify??

@snoopycar: The analogy between pianos and cars is NOT appropriate, and you know it! ;D

Comparing a piano to a car is really a false analogy within the context of the present issue - preparation. Any car dealer in the world does such “preps” for cars i.e. check the screws etc?

Although most dealers in Singapore don't do such preparation, it does not mean that this isn't done elsewhere, or that it shouldn't be done. If this is so, why should piano manufacturers issue dealers the long list of "to do" in a piano preparation?

A quick search on this forum would reveal that piano preparation is not the exception, but the norm in certain countries (at least a decent, minimal prep is better than no prep at all!). Such news isn’t good news to piano sales in Singapore, but consumers should be empowered with the truth so as to be able to make an informed consent to the purchase.

I would at least expect a decent prep for top-of-the-line, expensive grand pianos, but as Digitus has realized, such prep is not done for many brands (except for conscientious dealers of certain brands in Singapore).

That would also explain why my colleague in SGH would rather get a Bluthner from the manufacturer than from the local dealer. It is cheaper, and no prep would be done either way.

You both can take up placards at Hong Lim Park shouting "We want Preps - We want Preps"
Gather crowds and sign a petition, forward to piano socialty of SG, mandates a Preps certification upon delivery before full payment.

I'm be there giving out flyers, "Get it here"

hehehe

Ah, I see why snoopycar posted what he did. I wrote: "I hope that they at least check that the action geometry is within specs, but I don't know if they even do that." That would not be reasonable.

I meant that the dealer should at least check that the usual action parameters are within spec, and then regulate if necessary. I have also seen a brand new top-of-the-line Asian upright with slightly cupped hammers. This was clearly a quality check problem with this one unit. So for a dealer to assume that all pianos that arrive can be sold out of the crate is not right.

Now, looking at it from a business point of view, can a dealer afford to do thorough pre-delivery prep on all of his pianos and still make a living? Are we willing to pay a couple of hundred bucks more to have it done? Or else not keep pressing the dealer for more and more discounts? I am also sympathetic to the plight of the piano dealer in trying to keep a business going. But there has to be a balance somewhere, surely.

Digitus: Just pm you.

Cars and pianos are of course not same, but in terms of consumer expection, there is a similarity.

When one buys a toyota vios, to move from point A to point B, the product satisfies as a commuter car. Sometimes the door may rattles, dashboard clicks, some tyre noise intrude into the cabin, it's acceptable for the price point.

Importantly, engine must starts everytime, FC must be around 14 or more km/l. There are some basic condition to be met for a satisfied customer.

Can i take the vios to a plam oil plantation for off road driving? Can i take it to Suzuka Race track to do a lap trial time and complain the traction is understeer and lap time sucks?

Maybe if i buys a Ferrari enzo, the chief tech will help me to do a track setup(prep) at any 2 track selection of my choice(dreaming).


For pianos, i also believe the retailer has to do more for preps. At least send a tech that check more meticuliously after the first delivery and communicated till the customer is fully satisfied and honour a full refund - minus delivery charges.

Ok, i'll help up to carry a placard at Hong Lim Park for 10mins