Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum ABF quarterly recitals.....possible next step?

Several times over the past few years I have suggested the possible creation of an adult *intermediate* forum. Each time the suggestion was rejected as other members said they enjoyed hearing the improvement of various members over time as well as better players participating in our ABF recitals being an incentive and positive motivater.

I agreed as well however we are now in a unique situation that we were not in before. Our members who have been here a while are getting better. Some much better!

While this IS the purpose of participating in the recitals, as well as being on this forum to begin with, there is a possible downside;.... intimidation!

Many of us have read comments in past recitals along the lines of "you sound much better than a beginer". The fact is many of us do. Not pro's or even advanced intermediates but certainly not *beginers*.

The possible problem we may already be facing is that everyone is staying in first grade, not moving up to 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. When we have our adult "beginer" recitals, not only are several 4th and 5th graders showing up but also a few middle schoolers and beyond.

Since the adult beginer forum is literally as low as it gets, could the more advanced players possibly be discouraging some of the actual beginers from participating?. To some extent, I think so. I've seen it posted too many times.

Also, while our online recitals have proven to be an incredible motivator and incetive to practice, is the goal of submitting one recording after numerous re-takes (sometimes editing) our ultimate goal?

While everyone has different goals and reasons for playing, their goal should not affect or discourage others just starting out. Sort of counter productive.

As a possible suggestion, I'm wondering if we can't retain our current recital format while altering it a bit for the more advanced players.

Now don't crash these ideas as I'm just throwing out possible suggestions! I'm trying to think of a way NOT to discourage newer *beginers* while providing an additional challenge for the more advanced players.


Possibilites for the more advanced players could include:

. The requirement of posting only video performances in our recitals...(as it is more like the real thing)

. The requirement of posting more than one piece....back to back

. The possibility of having separate ABF recitals on the same day broken into more compatible groupings.....ABF beginers, intermediates, etc. This way everyone can participate. The true beginers will feel at home while the more advanced can continue to serve as a motivator while playing amongst others at their ability level.

In addition, I have also thought about possibly having some type of ABF friday night concert series in which the more advanced players in our group post up a mini "in concert" performance. Say a video of several pieces played back to back.

These are just possible suggestions and I would love to get everyones input to see what may work out best for everyone.

As mentioned, I don't want to discourage beginer participation (as you gotta start somewhere!) and I would like to offer more of a challenge to the more advanced players at the same time.

Your thoughts?

Ack! Am I going to be dragged kicking and screaming into the video age!?!

Hm. I dunno. I for sure like the current format, altho, for me, the "pressure" to comment on every piece is intimidating. (It seems to me that started in my very first recital, lo these many years ago - from my lurking before then it seemed less expected.) The last couple of recitals I haven't done so - but I feel a little guilty. It just seems less "chatty" to me when we have long posts from those of us commenting on all of them. I do see the advantage of everyone getting *some* comments, tho, which might not be true if we just all gave kudos to the ones we liked the best. Even the piano bars have gotten to where one feels that one needs to comment on all of them. And there's some of the recordings that just aren't my cup of tea :\

If I were going to separate the recitals, though, I don't think I'd do it on ability. I think I'd do it on genre - classical in one, pop and standards, new age, video games - whatever. Some of the classical I like a lot, but much of it I just I don't have enough knowledge to comment on.

I know some people feel intimidated. I never did, but those who know me won't be surprised about that It's much the same way at folkdancing - some beginners come once or twice and never come back, and some come and are hooked. We've never figured out how to "solve" that "problem" - to the point that I think it's largely not a problem to be solved, unless a group is just really so into advanced stuff that they aren't accomodating to newcomers. I don't think the ABF is like that.

Howsomever, if the idea is to give the folks who have advanced a venue in which they can strut their stuff a little more, I would certainly be willing to applaud it all! We are so cool in the way we've gotten better, and I love it. I'm just not sure what that venue is.

So, I guess, for me, the beginner-feeling-intimidated is not solvable, and it's fine with me if those who want more challenge than the current recitals give find a venue for that. But those are separable issues, for me.

Ok, ok, so I'm no help at all

Cathy

lots of help Cathy.

Your first concern was feeling pressured into commenting on every recital piece. I think everyone may feel that way just a little but to different degrees.

In every recital there are a few performances that stick out for various reasons. Maybe you just relate to the piece better, who knows? In any event it's probably best to simply leave heartfelt comments to those performances that really stand out for you. Not necessarily all of them. The comments will be better received with a few special ones as opposed to a staple "sounds nice" etc.

The main reason for possibly creating separate ability levels is the fact that we are all at different ability levels. This can cause hesitation/intimidation towards beginers as mentioned. The recital isn't broke and is actually functioning very well. It's just that the machine squeeks once in a while regarding ability remarks and thought it may be time to adress it once again.

If you split the ABF recital into different ability levels, we will then have the additional headache of trying to work out which category we should be in. As a beginner, I'm quite happy to play alongside fellow beginners and those with more experience.

I think this is a worthwhile discussion.
I personally didn't feel intimidated jumping in as a very new player -in part because I was able to push myself to do it, but mostly because I didn't actually realize how good some people were! lol.

I do think some people are intimidated right from the start, no matter what.
I also think that there are a lot of submissions from people who know darn well they can in no way be classified as beginners! (I mean that in the nicest possible way - I love listening to them, it is HUGELY inspiring --- but let's be honest - they aren't beginners).


Maybe one of the problems is that our recitals jump from stellar performances to ones with wobbles, and it can be particularly lowering if you find your own wobbly performance sandwiched in between two stellar ones.

At a live recital aren't the stronger players held for the end?

I don't know if this is possible but is there a way to add something to the registration/submission form to create a category? Have 3 categories? Real beginner, Medium beginner, and NotReallyABeginnerAnyMoreButTooShyToPlayinthePianistCorner?

As the submissions are filed they could be sorted into the categories - or at least flagged.
Just an idea.

As for commenting on all the entries. I too feel obliged - I feel mean if I leave someone out.
I don't know how you get around that. I also have to say that I know my pieces aren't really worth any comment on their own as musical entries, so I really take it as a wonderful gesture when anyone does make a comment on what I've managed to achieve.

More skilled musicians only submitting videos? If I were in that group would not appreciate that limitation. I have tried to upload videos and had problems and am not particularly interested in having to do it. Some of our performers have enough trouble uploading an mp3 file, many don't have the means to video - and a lot just don't want to video.


I think it is marvellous that so many join in and want to participate. For some of us it is the ONLY way we can perform for an audience of people we don't know. I agree, it is worth revisiting the situation and re-thinking how it works, what the objectives are, and how levels should be managed.

As for the multiple takes to get a perfect performance. I would vote for abolishing them and going on the honour system for either a) play it as a real recital and go with the first take or, offer a little flexibility and b) maximum of best out of three takes.

Thanks for bringing up the topic Mr. SH, let's see where it leads!

Well, in a certain sense we already have a highly successful, long-running venue in which anyone of any ability (including intermediate and advanced players (however that is defined - if it can be defined at all) can play anything they want to play in audio-only or video form as they choose - this is known as The Monthly Piano Bars. Yes, they are informal and somewhat disorganized - but they work, and work very well.

If the regular ABF Recital was split into two parts based on ability level - beginner and intermediate say - there would still be ongoing problems with classifying and placing individual players and personal feelings of inferiority.

Some players would (perhaps suffering from insecurity or lack of confidence or simply underestimating their skill level) classify themselves as beginners when they were more reasonably intermediate; and some players would (perhaps engaging in delusions of granduer or wishingful thinking or honestly overestimating their pianistic skills) classify themselves as intermediate rather than as beginners where they more logically belong.

Others wouldn't be able to tell in which category to place themselves, and waver or hesitate or simply not submit a piece at all out of fear of being in the wrong category and chastised by other players for doing so. Others wouldn't be able to determine when they where qualified to switch from beginner to intermediate level (or vice-versa if they were regressing in technique or ability - hey, it happens). And there will always be those who feel intimidated (in both categories) no matter how well players are placed in each classification.

As far as commenting goes I have always felt (and stated so several places/times, much to the unreasonable chagrin of a few) that if you submit a piece to a Recital (or Piano Bar) and you are expecting or wishing and hoping for and encouraging comments from others on your performance then you should be willing and committed to offering comments on at least a few of your favorite performances by others as a bare minimum. Otherwise if you don't want to make any comments, which, of course, is your right, then you should make it clear up front that you don't want and are not expecting comments on your piece. This seems the only way to be fair about the commenting problem. And if this discourages some from submitting...well that's unfortunate...but it's their choice and somehow it just seems unfair to "take all but give nothing"!

JF

Nice ideas and you do make very valid points, Mr. S-H.

The idea of "video only"is fine by me, because I was a YouTuber long before I discovered pianoworld.

I also believe that recordings should not be edited, although multiple takes are still okay. I think one should "play through" the entire piece and submit an unedited take - mistakes and all. I've seen people "splice" sections of pieces together before.

I think having "middle schoolers" in these recitals is a fact of life. I'd say at least 70% of us aren't even "true" adult beginners...lots of us here re-started as grownups.

..and not sure who are the ones who remain in 1st grade..lol. I've seen some pretty nice advancement from a lot of people with far less experience than me.

I think a back-to-back "repertoire recital" is a nice idea, even re-playing old pieces!

I think this is a matter of semantics. The recital has been for a long time now an "amateur recital", not a "beginner recital". I think we should just be clear about how we title it so as not to confuse any newcomers (for that matter I also think the forum should be retitled "Amateur/beginner forum with a sub-catagory for total beginners"). I don't think anyone should need to "rate" themselves. Just say how long they have been playing and let their playing speak for itself. Rating is overrated .

thanks SH, I think this is a needed discussion.

I would definitely consider myself a "true beginner". Three years of playing and I'm still in kindergarten, barely out of Alfred Adult Book 1. I have never submitted a piece to the recital, but it's not because I'm intimidated by the quality/difficulty of the pieces presented. It's because I do not have the technological means to record myself at this point.

I enjoy listening to the performances in the ABF recitals. I do check the information provided by each player, and make note of the amount of time that they have been playing. I pay special attention to the real beginners like myself, but I also look for those who post often and I've come to "know", and for titles that I recognize. I listen to them all, and enjoy using the streaming feature to play the whole concert. I've been introduced to many new "favorite" pieces, and am inspired by all those who participate.

Please think carefully before you make any changes to the ABF concert, as I think we have a good thing here just the way it is.

Some brief thoughts from someone who was here for the first recital, and is rarely able to submit as often as she'd like!

1) requiring non-beginners to submit only video is not fair. I don't have the ability to make a decent video recording, and I'm not able to go buy new equipment. Let people, beginners or not, choose how they want to share their playing, audio or video.

2) having people self-select into beginner, intermediate, beyond-intermediate categories is IMO a good idea. Then the recital could be one recital, but grouped not according to submission order, but according to level (then within each level, order would be by submission order). We'd need some software help to keep this from making more work for Monica when she uploads everyone's submissions.

3) whether people submit only their first take, live recital style, or whether they do multiple takes should be up to the individual performer. I share my recordings with family as well as on PW, so I want a good recording and will do as many takes as needed. I don't think that's a bad thing, I think it should be up to each person.

That's all for now, I'm typing on my iPhone so I don't want to say much more now but I hope there won't be too many drastic changes to the ABF recitals, I think they are great as is!

Oops edited to add: the dilemma about commenting is just inevitable. I always start out intending to comment on everyone, but generally run out of time. I just don't think there's any way to fix that problem. Some people will always comment on everyone, bless them! And others will just do what they are able to do. I didn't think it was such a huge problem, just a fact of life.

I think there should be a special category for early beginners, defined as playing, say, less than one year. Those pieces should be assembled together either at the beginning or the end (I think beginning). It will be far less intimidating for early players when they don't have to follow someone's version of Fantasy Impromptu, and once we have them hooked, maybe they'll continue participating in the main recitals. Right now we hardly ever hear any first year players, and that's kind of sad for a "beginner" forum.

I do think we need to encourage the true beginners. Think back to your first recital - wasn't it intimidating? I know I was blown away by the skill level of the participants. I definitely felt outclassed with my submission. It did encourage me to work hard and improve, but that first recital was a big hurdle to get over.

I know we shouldn't feel that way, that it's not a competition, that no one is laughing at our mistakes (are they?), but it's just human nature to want to participate with other people of the same level so we are not embarrassed.

Self-assessment is probably the best option. If someone says they are a beginner, then that should be good enough for our purposes. We want to avoid any recital-nazis attempting to police us into categories. We can make suggestions, such as if you are still playing from a method book then you probably belong in the beginner's recital.

So this would be my suggestion - split the recital in two, maybe in different months. Classified as beginner and intermediate. The players classify themselves, and it's not based on years of playing but on where you honestly think you belong.

Commenting on the submissions would be easier also, since the numbers for each recital would go down if we split it.

On the downside, it would be more work for someone, but we're probably not short of volunteers.

I'm not in favor of video only recitals. I love to watch the videos, but hate to make them, and it's an option that would exclude too many people.

Sam

I like the idea of the current recital having the "true beginners" at the beginning, and those of us with more experience later. There would still be some who don't quite fit either category and would have trouble making the choice. But if we Ban Comments That Slag People For Making A Choice We Don't Think Is Appropriate maybe that would help

Yeah, I think the comments thing is a personal issue for me, much like being intimidated is for folk dancers. I'm not willing to slag those who don't make comments at all , but I think I could back off my guilty feeling for not commenting on a Fantasy Impromptu (as one person's example was of a more advanced piece) if I really didn't have anything to say. That's not likely to be a piece that gets no other comments, any way. FWIW, I LOVE the beginner pieces and generally want to comment. I just get a real high from those.

But I'd still like it all in one recital. I'd keep submitting if it were two, but I like having one recital.

Thanks, everyone, including S-H, for the creative ideas!

Cathy

I like the current format. I like the combination of Mahlzeit's web site and software, the anticipation of the call for submissions and the general discussion thread.

For me the format works well and appears to run like a Swiss watch. I believe we should remember the many positives of the current format and caution any change based upon any perceived short comings. I also think the format works better than the other "e-citals" formats here on PW. A conservative, evolutionary approach should be taken to any change.

I agree with JFrank about the problems of categorisation of "intermediate". External or Self assessed, the player or the piece? I see this leading to all sorts of confusion. I like that the current system runs from outright beginner to those with many years experience. This seems a democratic, classless approach. What ever the system, I'm sure some folks will be too shy or whatever to submit. The idea of putting those with 12 months or less in pole position at the top of the recital may even dissuade more from submitting?

There already is a 'streaming' taking place. Anyone participating ABF quartelry recital, considers themselves a "begginner or Adult returner". There are non-ABF alternatives you can post a Video or Mp3 in the PW uploads forum and ask for feedback on the Pianist or Pianist(non-classical) forum.

I also agree with others concerns about making the Video submission mandatory for the more advanced and that this would possibly tend to exclude even more folks than the concerns raised about the current system.

As to the Advanced players wanting more of a challenge, well how about doing a real LIVE online recital using that Website Valentina Litsita used and cutting any recording out of the loop?

Just to add that if we do come to any consensus about changes to made, which involve more work for organizing, I for one hereby promise and commit to helping.

A little self-examination is always a good thing. There have been some thought-provoking issues raised and ideas offered. In no particular order, here's my reactions:

1.) I also don't support making video uploads mandatory; too many people don't have the necessary equipment and/or feel too shy.

2.) Copper's helpful statistics show that participation in the recitals is indeed "aging," with the average years of experience steadily creeping upwards. If this deters participation by true beginners, that is indeed something we'd want to address and correct if possible.

3.) I like the idea of singling out the very new beginners for special recognition. I'm not sure the best way to accomplish that. First, we'd have to rely on self-identification and adopt some kind of criterion for "new beginner" (say, less than one year on piano? two years?). Second, while I like the idea of grouping all the new beginners at the start of the recital, making that change would require changing the recital software, and that would be contingent on mahlzeit having the time and interest in doing the programming, and I would not want to pressure him in any way, given how much he has already done for the recitals. (I would be able to group all the beginners at the end of the recital simply through the process of resubmitting their mp3 files, which automatically boots people down to the end. But I doubt that would have the desired effect of encouraging participation.)

4.) Alternatively, we could ask new beginners to identify themselves prominently in the comments section of their recital submission. Not sure how helpful that would be, but if everybody adopted the same big type/bright color "New Beginner" label, it would make it easier to sort people out. That would be the easiest solution but would rely on the new beginners cooperating.

5.) A separate recital for new beginners only is also not a bad idea. I'm not sure how much interest/participation there would be in such a format, though, given how few new beginners join in the regular recital. It's a little hard to know if beginners aren't joining in because they are intimidated by the intermediates among us or intimidated in general and wouldn't participate even in a Beginners Only recital.

6.) The commenting issue has been raised and discussed ad nauseum, and each time the consensus is: Don't feel obligated to comment on all entries, or any, and you may participate whether or not you comment on other entries. I've always appreciated the people who take the time and effort to comment on my entries, but I've never thought badly of anybody who hasn't chosen to comment.

Hi there, interesting discussion. It has come up for discussion every now and then, who is a beginner?

I think it's really tricky because, on the one hand, we all consider ourselves some kind of beginner because we are here on the ABF. On the other hand, after the second week of lessons, we are *not* really beginners, because we have learned something. I would have a problem with separating 'true beginners' from 'not-quite-beginners' for these reasons.

First off, do we grade ourselves, or is there an external 'rule' we follow (e.g. a beginner has been playing for less than a year)? So if each player grades themselves then they will do so by different criteria and for different reasons. If there is a criteria, then it is still difficult - what if a player played for so many years previous, and now for 6 months - they could be an advanced player. Or they might be playing at an elementary level.

At the end of the day, why would we separate off the true beginners? Answer: so that the true beginners don't need to compare themselves to more advanced players. But, it will still happen, however you divide it up. Because the 'beginners' will some day need to graduate up, or they in turn will 'intimidate' other beginners.

I'm not sure I'm expressing myself very well.

I suppose I'm saying that participants either enter into the spirit of non-competitiveness, or - or they don't.

I would personally feel excluded if there was a requirement to submit a video.

I don't know. I haven't seen comments indicating this. I have, however, seen these reasons: (1) no time to bring a piece up to performance level, (2) don't have equipment to record, (3) technical/computer difficulties, (4) didn't know about the recital. Maybe we need to do a survey of why people (especially new beginners) decide not to participate?

I prefer to show my best effort in a recorded piece, which means multiple takes for me. This isn't like a live recital, because the performance ends up being kind of like "on your permanent record" .

I think we all find individual ways to challenge ourselves, whether it be through recording a video, choosing a challenging piece, learning a new technique, composing a piece, adding vocals, or mixing multiple recorded tracks. I wouldn't want to specify in what ways we challenge ourselves, because it's always so much fun to see what people come up with and described what they've done and learned in the process.

Segregating the different types of performances, whether by level or style, might be okay, but I really do like them all mixed up. If they were in categories, I might end up not ever getting to the jazz or new age performances, for example, because they're not what I usually listen to.

BTW, we already have a field in the recital submission form to enter information on our experience level. I like to look at that when I listen to the performances to see where I might hope to be in X number of years. Would you like to see that information highlighted?

Sure you are - and it's basically what I said in my post above:



Anyway, there's no way to prevent people, including beginners, from comparing themselves to others - it happens naturally and universally and just can't be stopped.

And why should we try to prevent beginners from being intimidated - it's always been that way, it can't be helped or changed, we've all been through it and why should newbies be deprived of this dubious pleasure? It sorts out the weenies and builds character in those who persist and prevail

JF

That being said, I think human beings are competitive by nature, and that's another thing lacking in these recitals - competition and prizes.

I ain't asking for competition - believe me. However, it is in the back of my mind that someone else will be playing the same piece as me come the next recital. I ain't sayin' what I'm playin', but it's an added motivation for me to practice, and makes the recital more interesting.

Back to John's point, I agree 100%. The beginners just have to accept the middle schoolers, and even the PhD's who play "Fantasie Impromptu" (I consider that the hardest piece ever..lol). It does build character and gives them something to "strive for."

IMO, the beginners who can't handle this are the same ones who post that they want to be a concert pianist 1 hour after deciding that they're taking up piano.