In my policy, I state that I will make up lessons missed by students who are sick with 24 hours' notice unless there is an emergency. So far, not one parent has given me 24 hours' notice, yet b/c they are good families, I've been making them up. As my schedule is filling, making up lessons is becoming difficult--also there seems to be a rash of sick kids in the last month. I am thinking of taking out the phrase "unless there is an emergency" as it is too vague and can only cause more confusion. I know that many stores/businesses do not rquire teachers to make up student cancellations, but wondered how many teachers offer that option when students are away on vacation or are sick?

Making up is different from rescheduling. It is possible to educate your parents about the difference. My policy is to allow reschedules for illness within the week, on a space available basis.

For the parent who calls and has just picked up student from school because of illness, I am most flexible with; the student who has been ill for 3 days, but mom doesn't call until an hour before lesson generally finds that there is no space available.

Missed lessons for birthdays, family visits, etc., (any frivolous reason) are, well, missed lessons. Parents made a choice and told both student and me what their priorities are.

Reschedules for non-sporting school events, SATs, ACTs, etc., are not a problem. Sporting events are known well in advance and there is no reason at all for a reschedule the week of the lesson.

As many have pointed out, you need to set your boundaries (reasonably so) and then stick with them.

John, thanks for such a specific and very clear response. I'm learning the hard way. This particular situation, the mom had returned from the doctor, so obviously she knew that the child was sick if she made an appointment with the doctor, so I feel 24 hour notice was possible. Many of my parents are asking me to come in (I also work for a store) on my off days to accomodate their child's change in extracurricular activities. I fear I've created a monster.

If the child was sick a few days prior and waits until the last minute to call, I generally don't make it up. Most of my parents don't request make-ups, but if they did I'd point that out. I had a student of mine who has been with me for years called me as her lesson was supposed to begin to tell me she was at a doctor's appointment. I did not make this up because she knew about the appointment ahead of time. But I would much rather do a make-up later than teach a child who is sick. They should stay home and get better, and so I don't want a policy that encourages them to come in spite of illness.

I make up all sick calls. Sometimes parents will wait till the last minute - often to see if the doctor thinks it's contagious, or if the child will be better by then. If a child was sick 3 days ago, it's very possible the parents thought they'd be better by now. I do encourage parents to notify me as soon as the child is sick, simply to warn me.

The reason I do offer make-ups for illness is because I absolutely hate it when kids show up sick.

But the make up needs to be within a week, so if the family can't reschedule during my available slots, they forfeit the lesson. If I feel someone is taking advantage of it, my available slots for make-ups become less flexible.

I do spell out the difference between a make-up for illness or emergency, vs. rescheduling in advance due to other activities.

So far, most of my families have been really good about this.

My written policy is very strict, so that any who want to take advantage of me are tightly limited in their opportunity to do so. My real every-day policy, toward those who are honest and not trying to take advantage, is quite lenient.

David, could you elaborate? Does your written policy state there are no make ups?

That is exactly why I provide make ups for sickness, as I fear parents will send sick kids to the lesson so they don't lose the money, which is ridiculous b/c the child gets nothing out of the lesson, and of course, may contaminate teacher and all other students who use the room/piano. That's a perspective I hadn't thought about, and I appreciate your mentioning that the parent may hope the child gets better by lesson day, but in this case, I can't imagine this parent entertaining that thought when they are taking the child with strep and a fever to the doctor's on lesson day. As for rescheduling within a week, that could be very difficult if the child is usually sick for a few days, so it often runs into the weekend, but it is definitely something I will put in my policy.

Morodiene, that is exactly the same situation I posted about. The mom calls after her visit to the doc to list a number of illnesses the child had, among them strep and fever. Obviously, she knew at least the day before (assuming she made the appt the day before -- can you even get appointment son the same day anymore?) that the child was pretty ill. Leaving me a message just a few hours prior to the lesson with a request for a "credit" in January is pretty annoying to me right now.

I think I know what he means, because I generally operate the same way. My contract in writing is strict. Serves as a great fall-back. However, I often choose to bend the rules and be more lenient in reality.

For example, I had a student who missed most of December due to being in a play. His mother knew very well I was under no obligation to make them up, and she was fine with this. But they are such a good family and nice honest people, I gave him a 45 minute makeup lesson this past week as a courtesy.

And just to add to that, this is in effect a marketing approach. Whether we know it or not. It's setting one expectation (no make ups) and breaking it to the customer's advantage (a courtesy make up).

Apple does this wonderfully. They told me 5 days for a repair on my laptop. It was back the next day and I was very happy.

It states no make-ups unless you're sick (or other compassionate reason), and also sets a (fairly small) maximum number of make-ups.

I operate on the general philosophy that written policies are simply there to protect me from being taken advantage of by that small minority who like to take advantage, thus allowing me to run my studio as I see fit without having to "play the bad cop". In reality, I simply respond to requests for make-ups on a case-by-case basis. In other words, I'm not ashamed to say that I play favourites in this regard. You're good to me, then I'm good to you.

danshure, thanks for clarifying. Makes a lot of sense, and is pretty much what I've followed, but this is a fairly new student, so I'm thinking that I will tell the parent I am not giving a credit, but will give a longer lesson (my lessons are always over the time limit, but of course, parents don't count that, do they?

Another little way of looking at this, really just a special little re-statement of what Dan and I just said:

My make-up policy sets out what I'm willing to do for people who choose to be difficult, and that is "not much".

I saw a music institute flyer with this included: "Please note that absences from class cannot be made up or credited to your account".

I think it's clear and concise wording. Could be useful to someone not able to reschedule etc.

Yes, I know that a reputable music school does not require it's teachers to make up student cancellations, only teacher cancellations and parents are aware of this fact when they register.

I'd take out all wording regarding sickness, 24 hours, etc. It gets very confusing - and there's no way for you to know for sure whether they are abiding by your policy or not. It will only keep the honest people honest. I'd replace it with something that truly fits your schedule.

In my policy (if it's helpful), I say that there will be no refunds - period (I've made exceptions to this for funerals, etc, but it's always me telling the student that there is an exception, not the other way around). I will also do makeups as I have time. Often that is extending the next couple of lessons by 15 minutes or so. Or, like this week, I work in makeups on weeks that I normally take off, like the week of New Year's. I've only had 1 family who thought my policy meant they could essentially change their lesson time from week to week and I let them go for that and other reasons. Allowing makeups to take place at the end of the year really helps committed families who are too booked during the week to make it over for another lesson. Some have come a couple of times this week for guided practicing to make up time from earlier in the year.
I don't teach on Fridays and also allow that day for makeup lessons. That's another option to consider.

Ellie

Irenev, you mentioned that "making up lessons is becoming more difficult". Then you ask who makes up lessons. It seems you want permission to stop rescheduling lessons with short notice.

So here it is. You have my permission to stop rescheduling lessons.

I have an acquaintance who chooses a few days during the year as "make-up" days.

I take off Fridays. That means it's a day off. Not a day for rescheduling lessons. I am no longer able to offer to reschedule lessons as my teaching schedule is full. So I started a swap list (as you know from my recent thread).

You teach people how to treat you.

My policy is simple but effective. Students pay to reserve a slot in my schedule. That means they pay no matter if they cancel or not. The only time I will reduce money owed is for certain holidays and if I cancel. So even if they are going on vacation for 3 weeks, they are still paying. Even if they are sick, they are still paying. This way I know how much I make each month. As far as makeups, I treat it like a work day. I work certain hours, if you can make up lessons within that time, I will almost always make it up. The only eception is if a student does not show up and does not call. To me this solves the students coming to lessons sick and the what am I going to make this month question. Usually the first time they go on vacation, there is a big discussion about this and they are not happy, but when I explain they are reserving my time on my schedule, that usually helps.

My policy is pretty much the same as your's Mikey, except for the vacation bit. I think I would lose a lot of students if I enforced a "pay while on vacation" policy. In Australia, no teacher could get away with that. Everything else you said is more than fair.

No vacation for you and your family except when I go on vacation! I'm curious as to how you manage to convince people to sign up for that.. :P

Ditto here. Students are paying to reserve a certain time slot that I've set aside for them. I don't give makeups for missed lessons.

I don't operate year round, though. Vacations are typically taken in the summer, when my students have a 2-month break from lessons from mid-June to mid-August.

To all the piano teachers who charge students even when they go on vacation having given you early notice: Lets say you get 1-2 new students during the months in which 1-2 of your existing students go on vacation (and they still pay you for the vacation period), do you turn these new students away? I mean, I keep hearing from you here that you need to know how much you'll make per month. All that's fair, but to be completely faithful to that scheme, you'd have to decline these additional students in case you don't have time slots other than the ones your existing students are supposedly paying for.

I just don't get the logic, really. You chose to be a piano teacher. With every job comes its uncertainties. You don't demand your clients to safeguard you against those uncertainties, at least not in my book. The same goes for the teachers who are unwilling to give make up lessons to students who call in sick. I don't really buy the "you are paying to reserve a slot in my schedule.. when you don't turn up, even if you get struck by lightning and are in the hospital, I am unable to do anything else with that one hour and since I'm a person who makes use of every single second in my day and since I'm a person who cannot figure out what else to do with that one hour when you haven't turned up, I have no other choice but to charge you for the lesson. Also, since I'm busier than Obama, I cannot give you a make up lesson either. Sorry, get well soon. Once you get well, do work overtime to pay me for all the lessons you didn't have when you were in bed ;)".

I really don't get it. I highly value what piano teachers have to offer people. I'm someone who gladly gave up all my internship earnings (600 euros) for a one week stint with a piano teacher. However, what I see here doesn't look fair to me and I had to ask here to understand better why people think this is fair. I don't mean to offend anybody.

My policy is that you are reserving my time for that time slot. I will almost ALWAYS give a makeup, I think that is fair given my strict payment policy. If someone does not want to pay for my policy, I will get someone in there that will. In my policy, my time is valuable. What if you had a student that had something going on every other week and canceled. Is it fair that the teacher holds that time slot for them even though they cancel every other week. I have never had a student refuse this policy when it is laid out this way. The first time there is usually a lot of questions, but once they understand the benefits they are getting from the makeups then it works. They never have to lose a lesson, and I never have to lose my payment.

That's fair. My question was primarily aimed at the people who've stated here (without exception, at least in what they wrote here) that they never give make up lessons. So they expect their clients to bear the brunt of the uncertainties of the job that they chose to do without bothering to be fair to the people who ensure that they have a steady monthly income. I find that ridiculous.

Replying to liszt85: Despite the fact that I DO give make-ups for illnesses, I'd like to attempt to show you the other side.

A lot of my students and/or their parents think that my fee is "per 30 minutes their child is with me." In actuality, my fee is for a semester. During that semester, I spend hours at seminars, running recitals, practicing, pouring over new music in the back room of the music store, spending time writing policies, answering phone calls and emails, etc.

In addition, out of my fee comes various materials and services (such as tunings) that I need to run my business.

My husband (who happens to be an engineer) has a set work-week. During the course of his job, he is paid to attend seminars and trainings, answer emails and phone calls, and so on. They provide him with all materials he needs to do his job. They even keep paying him during bathroom breaks!

The 30 minutes a student spends with me may be no more than half the amount of time I actually spent on that child. (Might be less than that - I never really figured it all out.) My piano still needs to be tuned regularly, even if the student skips a week to go to a brownie camp out or birthday party.

When a student cancels at the last minute, it is possible that my 30 minute "break" does not suddenly allow me to become incredibly productive. Because I have not planned that time for something else, chances are I will spend it playing Sudoku, while waiting for my next student. Or my previous student, who is used to leaving when the new student arrives, just hangs around talking because they think I have sudden free time. Or perhaps I will spend that time on the phone listening to the parent who is canceling list all her excuses.

At our studio we have a ONE WEEK policy on changing lessons. So if the child is sick on the day, they miss their lesson. Howevr I have had students hospitalised and im happy to do a makeup. I don't really mind if the kids are sick and my parents seem to know when their kids are "too sick". the policy before was that if they gave us notice that day then we would do a makeup. People would call their kids in "sick" all the time. it was a pain and I had to come in on weekends etc.

See, this is the problem that happens when a teacher has a generous makeup lesson policy (or no policy at all, making up each and every missed lesson).

Why should you have to take an extra day that you might have scheduled something (or perhaps nothing.... you ARE allowed to have some free time, right?) and spend it teaching a rescheduled lesson? Were you able to put another paying student in the original missed time slot?

I have a strict policy but I reserve the right to make exceptions to that policy. While my policy states that I don't give make up lessons for any reason, I have, in the past, rescheduled a student's lesson for various reasons. It all depends on the parent. If they are a great family (pays tuition on time, student practices, parent is totally committed to their child's music education, etc...) I will make an exception to my policy.... not for every missed lesson, but for extenuating circumstances.

Thanks for the attempt to show me "the other side" but frankly, most of this that you've written is ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

You practice because you want to improve your playing. If you're a better pianist, you teach better and if you teach better, you become known as a good teacher and then you get more students and then YOU make good money. The same goes for attending seminars and pouring over new music in the back room of a music store!

Writing policies, seriously? That's time you've invested in the student? How about asking the student to repay your student loans that you'd taken when you were majoring in music in college? That's time that you invested in these students of yours too, right?

Answering phone calls and emails. Ah.. that's time invested in the students as well. Stuff that you do to ensure that you have a full studio is also something that you do for your students? Have you actually tried saying these things to a parent who's complained about your policy?



This is legitimate. This alone (and the recital organization expenses).




If you wanted a job that pays exactly like his and has the exact same features, maybe you should have tried your luck there. You didn't have to choose to teach piano instead.



Well, you admit yourself that you have never figured it out. Who knows, the amount of time that you actually spend on that child may not be too much more than that 30 minutes when you've done your calculations precisely.

How many times do you tune your piano? I'm very curious. If you're comfortable sharing, please also tell me how many students you have. I might be able to help with some calculations.





Somebody earlier just said how important it was for them to have leisure time. Why play sudoku if you think its such a waste of time? How about practicing the piano? Or reading a book? Then you can charge the next student extra money because your practicing the piano and reading that book could in theory have a positive effect on that child's piano lesson! :P So get them to pay $20 more, why not?




Is it so hard to excuse yourself by saying that you need to go freshen up before the next student arrives? I'm amazed at the kinds of excuses that you come up with to justify the unfair stipulations in your policy.



What's the longest phone call you've received from such parents?

Sorry for being harsh but really, I think all of that was ridiculous and I cannot agree with anything that was written there. I think this is taking advantage of your clients, who value what you have to offer them and probably will play along (which is the belief that you base your policies on).

liszt85 - I'm curious, what do you think is a fair hourly wage for a piano teacher?

Liszt - My attempt was sincere; yours is just mean.

Yes, it would seem mean, wouldn't it? I think some (a very few number) of you piano teachers are mean, but that's just my opinion. I see most people are fair in how they schedule make ups and how they view this entire issue. I don't really see anybody come up with ridiculous excuses like having to answer emails, attend seminars, reading books, etc for not offering make up lessons!

If your attempt really was sincere, you would try to answer the very valid questions I raise in that "mean" post, which really wasn't meant to be mean for the sake of being mean, whether you believe it or not.

Here's what I do. I bill the same flat rate every month during the school year even with months that contain a fifth week. In this way students who attend conscientiously have credits in five week months toward make-ups for any reason. It usually works out.

http://arioso7.wordpress.com

It really depends on the teacher, wouldn't you think? I pay my teacher $60 an hour and I think its totally worth it. I'm sure there are teachers out there that I would pay $200 an hour for if I could afford it. As I mentioned earlier, the last time I took lessons with a teacher, I paid her 600 euros for 5 days of lessons (1-2 hours of one on one instruction each day). Hope that satisfies your curiosity .

I can teach the piano too. In fact, I taught 6-7 students a couple of years ago. I was doing my undergrad at that time and I taught other students (non music majors). I wasn't a music major either. I was paid $15 a month (weekly lessons that lasted 1-1.5 hrs each). Granted that was in a country where most people live on less than $1 a day. It may come as a surprise to you but $15 was more than what people were willing to pay for piano lessons in that country but these students paid me that money very willingly. They made good progress.

So don't think I'm some guy who hates piano teachers. Its the opposite. I adore them and I highly value what they have to offer mankind but when I see things that are unfair, I HAVE to make my voice heard.

I think the notion of reserving the time for a student each week is valid. I had an unfortunate experience where suddenly the student had either debate competition out of the area on a Friday, or swimming, and the mom couldn't bring the youngster for a make-up and insisted I deduct the fee for the missed lesson. This started becoming habitual, and despite a very clearly stated lesson and policy statement, I ultimately had no choice but to eventually terminate lessons. Fortunately, this has been a rare occurrence but when it happens it is very draining.

http://arioso7.wordpress.com

I would call this all part for your professional development, management and marketing of your business.
I would factor that into your fee charged to students.

Charging for missed lessons or giving makeup lessons? - Depends on how you want to run your business and may often be assessed on a case by case basis for certain students.

BBBB

I like your policy. Unfortunately, during the summer I have to be flexible.. so I bill by the lesson.

http://arioso7.wordpress.com

I'm just a paying parent. But we sign a similar policy at our music school - no make ups. Some are given, but it is very much at the discretion and schedule of the teacher. It seems reasonable to me that you are paying for someone's time.

I did have a violin teacher at this music school that canceled and rescheduled on me constantly. Often within a couple hours of my daughter's lesson. My son's piano lesson was scheduled back to back at the same location, so it required an extra trip. The same teacher NEVER would allow a make up for us, stopped our lesson on the dot (even if she started a few minutes late because we were the first lesson of the day). We left this teacher. If she would have had the flexibility for us that she required for herself, I might have stayed with her.

Our piano teacher almost NEVER gives make up lessons, even in the event of illness. He has rescheduled maybe 2 times for us in 3 years. He has about 50 students and a very full schedule. He's got a doctorate and he's constantly doing enrichment for himself, performing, he always comes in with new ideas and lots of energy. He often gives my 10 year old an hour lesson for 45 minutes paid because no one has a lesson after him. I have no problem with this policy given this teacher's track record (not to mention expertise).

I think it is nice to have some flexibility in the summer. How our piano teacher does it (which I think is really nice for students) is he puts out a calendar and blocks out the time he will be in his studio for the summer. He allows (requires actually) students to do 8-10 lessons over the summer however they'd like to sign up for them as long as you can find a space in the calendar. He has some complex system of who gets to pick their times first. So you could take an hour lesson one week, and skip the next for 2 1/2 hours lessons, etc. If his calendar fills and he's got a student needing more lessons, he will work with them. Seems to work well for him.

No, it doesn't satisfy my curiosity. You actually avoided my question, which was, how much do you think is a fair hourly wage for a teacher, not how much you are paying for lessons. They are not the same, and for the most part, your posts give the impression that teachers have no overhead or very little overhead, and that teachers should be at your beck and call for lessons. Maybe that's not your intent, but it seems like it.

Q: What is a fair hourly wage for a piano teacher?
A: I pay $60 and I think that's fair for the value that this particular teacher is offering me. It really depends on the teacher and the quality of the lesson offered.

Q: You avoided my question. I asked you what a fair rate was and you told me what you pay. I repeat, what is a fair hourly wage?
A: Phew, A fair hourly wage for a piano teacher (no matter what the qualifications or the quality of the lesson offered) = $182.80.

If the teacher develops a bladder issue that requires him/her to take on average an extra 15 minutes of toilet breaks every day, that amount should be incremented by $2.48 assuming the teacher has 10 students (if this is a different number, I'm sure you can do the math). This is to ensure that the teacher continues receiving the same monthly income.

I think people have missed my point, and I really don't have the energy to repeat what I said in different words, hence the sarcasm. Also, I answered your question quite precisely in my previous post. You chose to ignore it. I mentioned all the different fees I've paid and mentioned that I thought they were all worth it (=fair or more than fair). What answer (other than the one I've written here in sarcasm) might satisfy you completely?

EDIT: I really ought not to be that sarcastic, I apologize. However, I do think you missed my point. Lets leave it at that.

Thanks for your comments. The flexibility in the summer has to do with my students having vacation periods. (I make lessons available throughout the year) Most want to have at least a month of lessons, however, so they are usually arranged to everyone's convenience. I encourage summer study because of a need for continuity.

I think with the cancellation and makeup issue, if the parents understand the principle that the time is reserved (not to be too redundant on this)they can better deal with a policy that needs to be in place. Same holds for students who want to switch lesson days permanently because of changing sports schedules. I had a situation where I tried to accommodate this request, and then again, it became impossible with the third shift, so we had to settle on the one time.

It's nice to know that piano teachers (and other music teachers) can share some of these challenges, and hearing from parents on this board is indeed very valuable because most of the time, these areas of teaching are kept hidden under the rug.

http://arioso7.wordpress.com

Well, yes. That was my point. Apparently I didn't make it well. All these things get factored into my fee. If a student expects a refund of a missed lesson, then they are requesting a refund of the overhead I've factored in as well. It is not like a dentist who simply fills the slot with a different patient. (And even the dentists around here charge you for a missed appointment.)

Yes, I know. I should have been a dentist if I wanted to do it that way.

liszt85's responses represent an attitude exhibited by too many students (even if, thankfully, it's a minority of students), that teachers are not much more than hobbyists, with little or no overhead and should give up their free-time to accommodate your needs.

Teacher's overhead expenses, aka fixed expenses, are incurred whether the student shows for his lesson or not. If the student has contracted for lessons, these expenses are part of his lesson fees and do not disappear when the student does. The rent doesn't go down, the costs of procuring and maintaining instruments doesn't go down, utilities and the like aren't decremented. The list is quite large and the expenses are not insignificant.

Teachers teaching out of a school or store may well charge the same fees as teachers teaching out of private studios, but ask them and you will quickly learn that they are receiving 50% or less (usually) of the lesson fee. The other half is going to pay for the teaching facility and overhead.

Teachers have found that they've needed to migrate to tuition based plans or at a minimum, monthly fees, because they need to protect themselves from no-shows, which were traditionally no-pays. Students today are far more overly committed to extra-curricular activities and frequently have many more absences than in the past. Not only is this bad for their education, it wrecks havoc on the teacher.

The attitude posted by many teachers here, that students are contracting for their time, skills and facilities, is solid. Teachers make it available for you at the appointed time. If life's vicissitudes make it impossible for you to be there, chalk it up to life. Don't expect teachers to subsidize you.

Well, you inferred wrong. There was a recent discussion in the pianist corner where there was somebody who said that the best pianists at conservatories go on to compete and those who are successful there go on to have careers as concert pianists. The rest, who are mediocre, go on to become piano teachers. I vehemently argued against it. I've studied with quite a few teachers. I don't think its a hobby for them. I highly respect your lot. Its unfortunate that you've missed everything that I've wanted to say. There are teachers here who say that they try to offer make up lessons when they can and when they feel that the student's reason is good enough and there are others that say they don't offer them, without exception. So from what you say, I must assume that the former lot doesn't pay rents.

There was a parent here who described one of their child's teachers. The teacher never gave make up lessons but would reschedule lessons at will and far too frequently.

"If life's vicissitudes make it impossible for you to be fair, chalk it up to life. Don't expect students to cover for you" goes just as well.

In my book, expecting a teacher to provide you two hours for the price of one, because you became ill, isn't fair. It may be charity, it may constitute good-will, but fairness, it isn't.

These last few pages have been frustrating to read, and it is going more and more off track.

The issue is possibly policies for students who are absent due to illness, and one factor is that teachers prefer truly ill students to stay home, because if they themselves get sick it is costly. The pertinent factors would have to be that a time slot has been committed to that student, and the teacher has to keep his scheduling for all students in order. It is a matter of logistics first of all. What a teacher's "hourly wage" might be has nothing to do with the question, and it greatly confuses matters if I may say so. The specific problem that prompted this thread is the apparent abuse of makeups that the OP was experiencing. In the last few pages everything but the kitchen sink has been hauled out going way past anything.

Any profession that deals with schedules, committed time, appointments, eventually ends up with a policy because there has to be some kind of order. If a teacher makes up 5 sudden cancellations without having been able to use those missed time slots for anyone else, then that teacher is working 5 more hours during the week while earning the same as usual. Accommodating wishes for unusual times can run havoc with a teacher's personal life and need for some predictability, and rescheduling is time consuming and stressful. These are the things that are at issue. Not wages, or the fact that salaried people have vacations, paid perks, and predictable pay cheques year round.

Every home business has to weigh everything, and the freedom of self employment comes with a cost - risk being a main one. Allowing sick makeups may be a good investment against the alternative - a teacher's sickness causing him to cancel several days of lessons which he then has to make up according to common policy. There were some well thought out balanced responses in this thread until it all went haywire.

Liszt85's posts involve fairness. What about acknowledging that there are all kinds of teachers as well as all kinds of students? It might be enough to admit the unfortunate variety that exists in the teaching profession, and that unfairness can exist. There are people teaching who should not be teaching because they don't have the skills on the instrument or in teaching, don't prepare lessons or upgrade their skills, don't have proper instruments, and possibly ruin the students. There are teachers who are irresponsible and disrespectful of students, changing times at whim and last minute, and do not consider the best interest of their students. There are students who act like real jerks - or out of ignorance. Maybe admitting that not everyone is fair, and that this unfairness is a concern, would be enough to defuse it.

Maybe then, the student will not show you the good will of staying at home when sick and maybe will give you something that will make you lose a week of classes due to you falling sick. I'm sure all the teachers here will protest then. I've seen entire threads here dedicated to that topic. My point is, good will is mutual. You cannot expect it only from the students' side. If you have that expectation, you need to give some of it back.

John, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I wish there would be more respect for our profession.

That's why I allow students to reschedule - but that implies doing so before the fact. Not showing up for lessons, then asking the teacher to provide you a second one, is making up, not rescheduling.

Of course you may say so. But there was a reason I brought it up. I wanted a mechanism to differentiate between what a student is paying for lessons, and what a teacher is earning for each hour taught. Mr. L has side-stepped the issue at every turn, so it was for naught. The reason it was germane is because so many students do not, can not, or refuse to see the difference. It is of no consequence for the student, but is absolutely crucial for the teacher and it's the reason teachers have to protect themselves with what some see as "unfair" policies.

If you took the time to read carefully enough, you would see that I was talking about rescheduling when the student gives sufficient notice (in another thread that talked about this issue, I even talked about a hypothetical situation where 3 months' notice for a family vacation would be given, and the teachers still didn't want to reschedule lessons). About calling in sick, I agree with you when you say parents call you from the doctor's office and if they were at the doctor's office, they very well knew well in advance about it. I never disputed that. Please point out the instance, if I did. So please do not construct a strawman here in your attempt to prove that I'm just being disrespectful of your profession. I know I'm not.

There was no need for any of these arguments if you believed in rescheduling if students let you know before the fact that they couldn't make it to a class. That was all I wanted too (if your work schedule allowed it, I never said that the teacher is REQUIRED to, all I said is that its good if the teacher attempted to like many here do), all along. So I don't see why you disagree with me!

This isn't re: anyone
The bane of the Internet is miscommunication.
Missed common values.
Missing - period.
Happy New Year, everyone, and best wishes.

"I can teach the piano too. In fact, I taught 6-7 students a couple of years ago. I was doing my undergrad at that time and I taught other students (non music majors). I wasn't a music major either. I was paid $15 a month (weekly lessons that lasted 1-1.5 hrs each). Granted that was in a country where most people live on less than $1 a day." [/quote]

There is no problem being extremely flexible with rescheduling when you only have 6 students, and you're teaching for less than a year.

Serious teachers with nearly full studios have to make choices that work for their studio. Each student/parent decides if the overall package is "fair" or not. If you don't like the fees or policies you're free to go elsewhere. The idea of what is "fair" regarding missed lessons obviously differs from one person to the next.

If you're taking off a month for vacation, do you expect your teacher to hold your lesson time open for you?

BTW, where in the world do most people live on $1 per day, yet still take piano lessons or even own a piano?

Keystring, thanks for putting this thread back on track, although I sincerely appreciated everyone's input, with special thanks to John, whose input I value immensely (as well as all of the others here!). Yes, my post dealt with the "monster I have created" by being so understanding and flexible, BECAUSE I COULD. I don't have a full schedule so I could extend lessons, or juggle students on the days I work. Suddenly, I find myself dealing with the MAJORITY of my parents who expect me to make up lessons they cancel for reasons ranging from a birthday party to illness. They even expect make up lessons for make up lessons they cancel! I value my students and do not want them to miss lessons, so I've extended lessons when possible, come in to the store on days off, gone to their homes on days off, etc. to make up lessons. Now it's expected. I initiated my policy of making up sick time if I receive 24 hours notice, to ensure that parents do not bring their sick child to a lesson. It saddens me that Mr. L threatens to do just that if the lesson isn't made up. If parents weren't so thoughtless in that regard, I wouldn't have to put a sick clause in my policy. It just seems to me that it's a no brainer - don't bring a sick child to school, so why bring them to a private lesson? They can't focus, can't do anything but sneeze, blow their nose, cough. It's senseless. Yes, I've been sick every two months since I started teaching, so I will bend over backwards to keep the sick child home (by offering make ups) yet, now it's backfired on me- parents called an hour or two prior to the lesson to tell me the child is sick. So far, not one parent has ever given me 24 hours notice.

Teacher's overhead expenses, aka fixed expenses, are incurred whether the student shows for his lesson or not. If the student has contracted for lessons, these expenses are part of his lesson fees and do not disappear when the student does. The rent doesn't go down, the costs of procuring and maintaining instruments doesn't go down, utilities and the like aren't decremented. The list is quite large and the expenses are not insignificant.

Teachers teaching out of a school or store may well charge the same fees as teachers teaching out of private studios, but ask them and you will quickly learn that they are receiving 50% or less (usually) of the lesson fee. The other half is going to pay for the teaching facility and overhead.

Teachers have found that they've needed to migrate to tuition based plans or at a minimum, monthly fees, because they need to protect themselves from no-shows, which were traditionally no-pays. Students today are far more overly committed to extra-curricular activities and frequently have many more absences than in the past. Not only is this bad for their education, it wrecks havoc on the teacher.

The attitude posted by many teachers here, that students are contracting for their time, skills and facilities, is solid. Teachers make it available for you at the appointed time. If life's vicissitudes make it impossible for you to be there, chalk it up to life. Don't expect teachers to subsidize you.
[/quote]

I work for a store as well as teach privately. We receive 2/3 of the lesson fee, for all the reasons you so accurately stated. We are also only allowed to work a specific number of hours, so if we have back to back students, it is impossible to schedule makeups. Makeups for students cancellations are not required. Teacher cancellations must be made up.

John, please ignore my prior reply--somehow I ended up with your post in my response. At any rate, I work for a store as well as teach privately. We receive 2/3 of the lesson fee, for all the reasons you so accurately stated. We are also only allowed to work a specific number of hours, so if we have back to back students, it is impossible to schedule makeups. Makeups for students cancellations are not required. Teacher cancellations must be made up.

I agree with everything you've said in your posts, adn appreciate your input. For some reason I have yet to understand, music teachers seem to fall outside the realm of other service providers. I never received make up lessons when I missed lessons, both privately and when I attended college. If you missed a lesson, you missed it. And tuition was very pricey. If a child misses classes in school, are those classes made up? If they miss a dance class, do they receive a make up? To my knowledge, the answer is no. Most of us, where possible, will do our utmost to make up missed lessons (unless they are abused).

Did I say that the same people (who live on less than $1 per day) take piano lessons and own pianos?

Wow.. I see now. You're all putting words into my mouth. I didn't realize that this was a teacher's only thread where teachers say things that make each other feel good. Carry on. I thought you valued what your clients thought.

Translation: Keystring, thanks for putting this thread back on track where everybody is supposed to say what we teachers like to hear. Thanks to John for taking on somebody who had difficult questions to ask that we never really like addressing honestly.

I just had a quick thought - something that's always bothered me.

It's not the policy itself, or the idea behind it, which I agree with totally.

But... why 24 hours exactly? What if the kid wakes up sick? I never get sick gradually. It doesn't happen often but when it does, I'm hit sudden. How can I give 24 hours notice to my teacher who comes at 10 am when I wake up at 6 and she wakes up at 8?

I think, like everything else, it's very circumstantial. The beginning posts had it right. 'Protect' yourself by making clear what some definitive rules are, but don't set them as permanent law. If a family calls me in the morning to say their child is sick, I won't blame them for not bringing the child in a few hours later. If they ARE sick early, I'd love to know of course, but that's not always the case.

Just a small point. In my personal experience, I've never had or needed a make up for violin lessons, my piano teacher was usually the one who canceled the lessons or reschedules them, and my voice teacher is the kindest person when it comes to rescheduling/make-ups (and if she doesn't do it, she doesn't charge - though I always pay her anyway).

Circumstantial, as always

Your earlier posts show good reasoning. But this one is just rude.

I'm not quite sure which way that was meant in my direction. I am a student, and tried to get two sides to try to hear each other. For my general observation, please see post with kitten.

It was meant to be. I don't appreciate people putting words into my mouth just to win an argument. I never did that to them. If they want to argue a point, they probably shouldn't do it like how they write up their studio policies. This is not their home turf, or so I thought. As this thread progresses, I see more and more members (teachers) come in, congratulate the people (teachers) who did nothing but justify their hard and fast policies by repeating the same old "my income needs to be steady" while avoiding all the questions I raised. So I'm pretty sure I had good reason to write what I did. Nobody here is interested in arguing out a point with valid reasoning, which is why I concluded that they weren't bothered about what their clients thought.

My direct experience with piano teachers though, has been exactly the opposite. So I'm hoping these couple of cases are exceptions in the business of piano teaching. I was talking about rescheduling when given sufficient notice and nobody, yet, has given me a good enough reason as to why they shouldn't consider it at all, without exception.

One says they would play sudoku, the same person says that they answer phone calls and emails and practice the piano and quotes these as "overhead" charges. I see no piano teacher member here say anything about any of that. All I see is mutual congratulations being passed around for God knows what. So yes, I was rude, intentionally. I think that the "business" of piano teaching needs to be slightly different from say the business of car sales, or insurance or whatever. If the people in the business of piano teaching operate just like other businesses do, why would they expect any more respect than what people give car salespersons?

Now because I said the above sentence, somebody is going to come up here and write "I find it sad that MR. L threatens to disrespect us just because we demand the same payment policies as do insurance agents". I find all this quite ridiculous. Its a case of a couple of piano teachers ganging up on somebody who raised uncomfortable questions and a couple more teachers coming in with slightly muted (but firm) congratulatory notes for these members. Tell me if you think I'm crazy to have perceived this. Make sure you read the entire thread before posting your reply.

When something like that happens, I wouldn't demand any piano teacher to make up that lesson (but it would be great of course if the teacher considered it if they thought they could fit it into their schedules without having to sacrifice too much). I'm talking primarily about things like family vacations (lets say for a week) after giving the teacher at least a month's notice. Some teachers here demand that week's payment too quoting piano tuning charges (I asked that person how many times their piano gets tuned and didn't get an answer) and refuse point blank to reschedule that lesson. Then, they demand some kind of special respect that car dealers or insurance agents don't get in general from people. I wonder why.

Like yourself, my direct experience has been the opposite. I've always had teachers who loved teaching the piano for the sake of teaching and passing on knowledge. They always considered make ups and rescheduling. I never complained if they couldn't. I appreciated the fact that they would try. I don't expect them to make huge sacrifices to accommodate my circumstances. Just the effort would win them a great deal of respect.

It's the rare week that I have time in the schedule to make up a lesson. I will offer it if there is a cancellation somewhere else in the schedule, but for the most part, those times don't exist.

Parents who sign up their children know this. I make it clear at the outset. However, I restructured my policy to offer 38 amount of lessons over the course of the year from September-August. I give them a calendar listing the weeks I am not teaching, leaving 46 weeks available for lessons.

I charge an annual tuition which can be paid in full, by semester or in equal monthly installments. This has solved all kinds of problems. I don't have to worry about make-up lessons because there are enough weeks in the year.

If they don't use all 38, I don't refund them. If they go over the 38, I bill them separately.

This will probably raise some more ripples, but I think a lot of teachers teach more than they should. The teachers who complain about not having a single slot available in their schedule are probably over-teaching. I know for a fact that teaching all day every day is very detrimental to the quality of teaching. It drains you too much and result in giving substandard service. Even if you do feel that you could fit more students in and earn more money, it almost always better to teach at about 75% of what you think you could at full tilt.

Why?

a) It gives you the time to maintain you skills as a musician. Many teachers actually don't play anymore, they consider teaching their job - but one of our prime responsibilities is to maintain (or even improve) our skills.

b) It gives you time to look forward to teaching. You have to be away from something some of the time to enjoy and appreciate it.

c) You need some time to invest in looking for new materials and pieces for your teaching. You need to listen to music sometimes too, oddly enough.

d) Teaching isn't like every other job out there. You can't just show up to work and do a half-hearted job and expect to get away with it. It requires full commitment and enthusiasm for each and every student. You need regular breaks and a reasonable workload to be able to do that.

e) It opens up a bit of calendar time to be flexible. Like it or not, music lessons fall into the category of unessential services and people won't put up with unfair or draconian policies. Even if you think they are agreeing to it, if your policy is in fact unfair, you will eventually end up damaging the relationship and prematurely ending it. Having a bit of flexibility is part of the goodwill needed from a teacher. It's give and take though. A student must have respect for a fair policy. I have no problem with teachers only allowing make-ups within a week and with 24 hours notice, but you also need to ensure you have some spare slots too to give them a chance to rebook. If you have that policy but book every slot out, you aren't living up to the spirit of your policy.

Anyone teaching 55-60 students per week really needs to have a think about how much they are working and what negative effects that may be having on themselves and their students. I think you'd virtually have to be superhuman to maintain that amount of teaching with top quality to all your students. Nobody has that much mental energy - not if they are doing it right.

I'm a student and I don't mind at all having to provide "a steady income". There is even a clause in my contract requiring me to pay for the first three weeks of teacher illness / disability. Which is still way less than the full year that my employer would be liable for if I myself get ill or disabled. [Since my employer is too small to carry such a risk, they had to get insurance for this, and it's not cheap!]

I really can't imagine spending hundreds or thousands of euro's on a vacation,
being away from home without practice all week, and then desiring a reschedule or credit for that. I don't think my teacher can afford the kind of vacations I treat myself to.

Wouldn't this largely depend on the average length of the lessons they're teaching, and whether they teach students in pairs at all? On what assumption of these factors are you basing this statement?

I may get kicked for this... but I can't really agree to that, unless the teacher makes it up in some way.

Of course, I understand the need for it, but in this line of work, I don't think you can put that type of responsibility on your clients. It's one of the reasons you charge what you do and don't work for a company.

As a contractor, you don't really have "employers" - the students/parents are clients. Holding them responsible should you get sick and not be able to work is not fair game. This applies to all forms of this work, not just piano teaching.

No you didn't. I am just curious as to what location has a piano playing community while most residents there live on a dollar a day.

You may get kicked for this, just as I was. However, you make complete sense.

The piano playing community there can probably be counted on one's fingers (relative to the country's population). I don't want to divulge the name of the country here for some reasons, though I might have mentioned it elsewhere on PW.

I agree that this makes sense. No one is getting kicked. I've never heard of a teacher charging for their first 3 weeks of illness (or for any illness at all).

The lack of pay for sick days, (and lack of health benefits) is factored into the fees for lessons.

Apples and oranges are being mixed here and that is also what is causing the confusion. I make my living exclusively from offering a professional service as a freelancer so I am familiar with some of the things being presented.

When you set up your business you have to consider all your costs and variables, so you know what to charge and whether it will fly. So you have to figure out all your expenses, and things like the fact that you might become sick and not be able to teach and how you will handle that: time to make up lessons due to your illness, and the fact that you might be teaching less days in a year. You look at what the market rate is. Based on all of that you set your fee. So in that sense your client's fee has your needs and expenses factored in. These are also the kind of calculations that your accountant puts into your income tax statement.

Once you have set your fee, your client is paying for your service. If you have attended seminars, taken courses, examined new teaching material, this enhances the quality of your service. People pay more for higher quality. They do not pay for your seminars: they may pay for the greater quality that you have to offer. Your seminars and such are an investment that you put into the business in order to stay competitive.

Freelance work gives freedom that the salaried person doesn't have, but we also don't have the same advantages. There is no sick leave, paid vacation, or pension plan contribution by an employer. You have factored these things into your set fee before starting out, and you have calculated how many students you must teach in order to break even. Your client does not pay extra because you are sick. No business charges like that!

A freelancer does not have the security of employed people. You cannot try to have it both ways. If there are seasonal fluctuations then you have to spread out your earnings for the year, saving up from the glut times to cover the lean times, and trying to find alternate paid work for the lean times. Your client is not an employer who evens this out for you. Like anyone else, you are providing a service that the client pays for. It is a personalized service geared to your customer's needs, and that is why you are better than an institution.

How you present things to your customer is important, and that is what has gone wrong here. Actually, this is a teacher forum so you shouldn't have to present things to customers, and you should be able to discuss things openly among yourselves. The reality is that the customers are there, and there is friction.

Sure, we should know realities such as that when you have given hours and days, it is because you have other priorities to attend to which makes you unavailable at other times. But show interest in your client's needs and how you can best serve him, when you present your policies. Sure, having people come in the summer evens out your income - but don't say that! Having students come in the summer prevents them from backsliding and so is good for their growth. Summer is a fantastic time to invest in piano because there is so much extra free time. This shows that you are thinking like a teacher on behalf of a student, and it is accepted more easily than "I need income in the summer months too".

The way things were presented a couple of pages ago created a lot of unnecessary friction and possibly misunderstanding.

Sorry for the intrusion: it's just been too frustrating to read this. (Maybe I should stop reading )

I don't know how well it would work out in practice. Because it is rather unlikely to happen (3 weeks of absence), it's possible students might not find it worth to argue about in advance but still have really big problems with it it if ever happens. The contract is a fill-in-the-gaps template created by a national organisation, so I assume it is legally sound and not completely uncommon here (Netherlands).

But I don't personally have a problem with this clause in my contract, and not a very strong opinion about it, and nobody else on this forum seems to have or want such a clause, so I'm afraid I might be needlessly steering this thread into an irrelevant discussion.

The most interesting disagreement between students and teachers here seems to be about student vacations announced long in advance.

To answer the OP's question (which I don't believe has been answered yet), YES, it is definitely possible to get same day appointments (at least it is here). You earlier you call the better the shot you have (each pediatrician in the "network" we use reserves a certain number of slots per day for same day drop in's). As was mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon at all to not know until the day of whether or not the child _can_ make it. I do agree that if the parent knows the kid is sick, that a call 24 hours in advance saying the child _may_ not be able to make it followed by a call the next day to confirm would be ideal (maybe the kids throwing up because of something they ate, maybe it's because they've caught some bug, only time will tell).

My take on liszt85's comments is that his statements were indeed taken a bit out of context. His original issue appears to simply be with teachers that have a iron clad "no makeups" policy. How that got turned around to him "demanding" makeups or not valuing a teachers time, I have no idea.

We're pretty fortunate in that we have a good rapport with our kids teacher and we're both flexible. We respect her time but appreciate her flexibility when the need arises. The fact that she is flexible definitely makes us respect her time (and her) even more and all those things go into building that good rapport.

Yes, and when someone posts a really acidic reply to a teacher's honest effort to explain something, others will most like rise to the defense! Call it human nature.

We've had this discussion many times in the past, and each time it comes up, there are new members present, and old material has to be presented again. My posts are an attempt (somewhat feeble, it appears) to do so, to highlight the major points of why teachers are being discouraged from giving makeup lessons.

Many students are not aware of this, but today, most music schools today, in their pedagogy classes, are teaching young teachers not to do makeups. There are many reasons, most have been presented already.

Student tuition, whether paid by the month or for the year, takes into account that students will be absent for various reasons. Personally, I assume the average student will miss 3 lessons through the school year. In my studio's case, if they make all 36 lessons, they've received 3 bonus lessons; if they miss more than three, perhaps next year will be better - perhaps mom and dad will pay closer attention to schedule events for their student.

If a student, who is on tuition, wants an extra lesson, fine, but it must be paid for at the one-off rate. Tuition students, because they are committing for a certain time and block of lessons, actually receive a significant discount over the one-off rate. Adults, for the most part, and many of my high school seniors find that they are better off paying the one-off rate each lesson, but they then must fit into a schedule, when I have an opening. They cannot claim a time slot as their own. Most are fine with this. Those who are not look elsewhere, which is okay.

As keystring correctly and cogently points out, we're in business, and we must respect the customer. Every teacher needs to find a way to verbalize policies and tuition so that our paying clients do not feel cheated or short-changed, while at the same time, not allowing our own status to degenerate to that of a commodity.

BTW, one suggestion for teachers wishing to discourage makeups, which hasn't been regurgitated this round, is to offer them at very inconvenient times, such as 6:30 AM before school. It's amazing how many parents decide that the makeup isn't that important after all.

An excellent post! I've highlighted parts of your post that I think I was trying to communicate. English is not my native language but I doubt that was the issue.



Finally, thank you! When it did get turned around, there were quite a few congratulatory notes being passed around. I wish we'd have at least one teacher member here who sees what you see.

Not having time to make up a lesson is due, in equal part, to the busyness of the student's schedule. Nine times out of 10 they are not available when I am free.

Not having time to make up a lesson is also the reality that I have a life aside from teaching. I have a family that includes a husband, two teenagers and two elderly mothers to care for. When students ask to reschedule, I have my family to consider.

I schedule my students so I have enough time to plan, to practice and to have a personal life. I am not at their beck and call. I can't create another slot that doesn't exist for the possible hole they have in their schedule.

This post is riddled with inconsistencies, the way I see it:

When the student does have time to attend a rescheduled/made up lesson that you possibly could propose, you probably will end up citing reason number 2 for your inability to reschedule. When the student does not have the time to attend any slot that you assign for making up a class, its easy to just say that its the students' fault 9 times out of 10 (reason number 1 in your post). You really need to make up your mind here because what your stance here does for you is it allows you to justify your policy no matter what and in the bargain end up putting all the blame on your client. You either don't want to schedule a make up lesson because you have other priorities OR its the student's fault for not being available when you are. You can't have both excuses at your disposal at the same time to use as you wish.

Let me explain further: If you were the type that makes attempts to offer make ups/reschedule lessons, you would just post the first part of your post and be done with it. Going on to post the rest and saying that its impossible for you to offer a slot because it simply isn't available, says that you don't intend to do it anyway. So why even post that its the student's fault 9 times out of 10 when there's not even 1 instance in the first place because you quote "nonexistent slots" in your post? So I wonder where the 9 out of 10 came from. I'm quite perplexed. Is it just me or are there others who see a lack of consistent logic here?

Precisely!

My studio is open from 3-6:30, Monday through Thursday. Not all of those hours have students scheduled in them. If they can't come when the studio is open, they can't make up the lesson. I offer slots from other cancellations as well as the empty slots.

But I am not going to teach a lesson at 8 p.m. simply because that is when they might be available.

You have just answered the question that I posted so I deleted it. That sounds perfectly reasonable.

(I liked your elephant in the room analogy - hope you don't mind if I quote it)

I suspect that teachers offering high quality service will have full studios and teachers offering little for the money will, in time, find they have few or no students. In the long run (which may be getting shorter thanks to the internet), this is self-correcting.

The movement away from "fee for lesson" to some form of tuition based study is an effort to raise professionalism, and by doing so, it allows the conscientious teacher the opportunity (obviously, many do not, and this is a separate problem) to structure their life, both to their own and especially to the student's benefit.

Currently, there is a word in use, fair, which is bandied about to discredit someone you disagree with. Fairness is irrelevant and of course, is always in the eye of the beholder. What is fair to you may not seem fair to me. What's fair to the student may not seem fair to the teacher, and of course, the reverse. That's why we have policy statements, contracts, etc., so both parties know precisely what they are getting in to. If you sign up for lessons with a teacher whose policy is, "no makeups," then demanding a makeup, or refusing to pay for a missed lesson has nothing to do with fairness, but with attempting to change the terms of the agreement (or even breech of contract).

If the teacher you want does not offer makeups, then take the tuition, figure out how many lessons you're likely to use, and calculate your per lesson fee. To me, this is penny wise and pound foolish. How do you put a price tag on the effort of the teacher to locate the right piece of study music for you? How about the extra preparation the teacher gives you for up coming Auditions? How about for the planning and execution of recitals and other programs?

KS, you often point out that we talk past each other. One of the reasons is that adult students come on this forum and read posts and think in terms of adult students, where as, the majority of teachers here (and every where) are dealing primarily with children in school, and for the most part, are dealing with and attempting to resolve issues which develop working with this age group. The two are simply not the same, and the answers are quite different.

Oh geez....

Yet another person who doesn't take piano teachers or their business seriously. We are viewed only as the 'little lady down the street who gives piano lessons' and not as PROFESSIONALS who operate a business.

Why should we not separate our business hours from our personal hours? Why do we have to use our personal/family time to make up missed lessons? I teach a certain number of days each week. The other days are NON-teaching days. Are we to feel guilty because we didn't reschedule Johnny's lesson on our day off?

Look, bottom line is this:

My students receive a studio policy when they enroll for lessons. It states the weeks when my studio is open and the weeks when it's closed (5 weeks off between Sep and June). It states that tuition is a set monthly amount regardless as to the number of lessons in the month. It states the late fee I charge when tuition isn't paid by the due date (should we start another thread on THAT controversial subject?). It states that I do NOT make up missed lessons. It states that I require a 30-day notice to stop lessons (and yes, tuition is due when I don't get that 30-day notice). And my policy also states all the benefits the student will receive by taking lessons from me.

Parents read and sign the policy when they enroll. Those that don't like the policy will obviously look for a different teacher. I guess if the market didn't support my policy I would have just a handful of students. As it turns out I have a full studio.

Well put!

Thanks you for addressing this John. It was going to be my next 'soap box'.

Though I'd agree that liszt85 missed minniemay's point, I think that your characterization of his misinterpretation is just as off as his is. Had Minniemay simply came out and said what you did (e.g. I run a business, it has business hours, I schedule makeups during those business hours, it's been my experience that often clients want to try to do makeups outside of those business hours and I'm not willing to do that (for whatever reason)) and kept the whole family/personal thing out of it, then I think that liszt85 wouldn't have interpreted it the way he did. If one wants to be treated as a business, you have to talk about it as a business. Words like "when I'm free" and "elderly mothers to care for" don't convey a business like attitude so jumping on someone for not treating teaching as a true business based on that kind of post is a bit one sided.

BTW, I do agree with your bottom line. Generally the market dictates what's "fair" and "best" (with obvious exceptions and caveats).

I don't think lesson length is that important. If they were hour long lessons, I'd say this teacher is insane rather than overworked! If they were all half hour, probably overworked - teachers who are really investing in their teaching and their students' needs will experience fatigue, regardless of lesson duration.

If they were all 20 minute lessons, I'd doubt the sincerity of the teacher. That's mass production teaching without regard to student requirements.

Don't get me started on group lessons! That is something I just don't respect, unless it's one or two lessons here and there for a particular reason. I don't believe in group lessons because it greatly compromises everybody concerned. No two students are alike, they never learn at the same rate and their problems/issues are never the same. It will always result in holding one or both of them back - even over a 6 month period. It's one of those things that sounds good in theory, but in practice is riddled with problems. I'm not just making this up. When I was a young teacher, I tried very hard to make group lessons work. In the end I concluded that they were not sound on a pedagogical level. They might be "fun" but they are not value for money in a learning sense. I concluded that the main reason for ongoing group lessons is that they are for quick cash for the teacher - assuming the lesson length is not extended. In which case, I still think group lessons doesn't work. Student focus becomes a problem when a teacher is only addressing one of the students.

So, any way you slice it, teaching 60 students a week will involve some sort of problem, in my opinion - whether it's exhaustion or quality of service. I don't believe teaching is something that somebody should be doing if it's about getting seriously rich. You can earn a very comfortable living, but you can't apply ruthless economic rationalism to it, nor can you duplicate yourself. If you want to run an ethical teaching enterprise that makes money (or you want to duplicate), you can start up a music school which holds individual teachers to the same standard - but that means the individual teachers won't be getting rich.

I've met teachers and schools who operate on appalling principles - all based around making the maximum amount of money. Music was just incidental - they could have been operating a steam-cleaning business for all it mattered. I happen to think that being a music teacher is a unique profession that involves a very unique mixture of respect for the teacher's time and skill, but also understanding of the need to be somewhat flexible for students. It can offer a very satisfying life, and comfortable standard of living, but ultimately it isn't a job for entrepreneurs. When policies get too strict on the basis of money, to the extent where the teacher is offended at the mere thought of losing a sum of money or earning less than what is theoretically possible, I believe that teacher has crossed over into another world that isn't about teaching anymore. Such people should probably be on Wall Street trading commodities or running slick corporations.

By all means, value your time and put a price on your talents, but keep it reasonable. The student is equally as valuable as the teacher. The money they pay you balances part of the equation. The rest is about fair treatment between two people and both sides need to be reasonable to each other.

Policies should be about upholding fairness, not about capitalising on a situation.

Thank you for the very comprehensive post, John. On a couple of things.


I am not sure that this is true in either of our fields, and it's something that concerns me. A bunch of things.
- Some of the things required in musicianship are difficult and take time, and a teacher who asks for them may find her students drifting to the teacher next door who goes faster and makes it "easier". Students and parents can get fooled by impressive sounding things without much substance. They don't know what to look for or listen for.
- Again, we don't know what is involved and may look for the wrong things: fast progression through grades, winning contests (plays choreographed, but has not learned to read, understand, interpret music.) Especially through the Internet, these people may draw students into their studios by dazzling via shiny things.
- The "instant success" packages: lessons via the Internet with people who can play piano being trained to teach them - or in schools or institutions of various kinds.

In every case, if we are informed we won't be dazzled by them, but if we aren't, we can be.

It is especially insiduous for adult first-time learners, because "markets" are springing up. The adult portrait is as follows: wants to learn favorite music quickly and superficially without putting in the work, and so needs some superficial skills. There is no way that we can reach any kind of musicianship that way. These things are well marketed, and it's a major industry. Again, if we are not informed we won't know what's missing. Enough people like that kind of thing that it grows.

The superficial, instant, hyped, dummied down, is everywhere in all disciplines, and it is experiencing success. Teachers operating in the right surroundings may be in pockets of informed people who know what to look for. But not everywhere. We as a society must educate ourselves and support those who offer quality, as well as know where to look for it.



In addition to this, and possibly more importantly:
Everywhere in all forums people talk past each other. Teachers also talk past each other at times. The reasons: There is way too much information and the medium gives a false sense of intimacy. People skim posts, form vague impressions, and have not really taken the time to understand what has been said. They often go by their own experiences and project them onto the speaker. Participants are strangers from all over the globe. It takes time to listen and understand what a person is saying and we don't have that time. But misunderstandings waste even more time.

I think that gaining some understanding of each other's worlds can have an effect in real life: parents cooperating better with their child's teacher, teachers having a better idea about the other side and so on, new solutions.

This is exactly the kind of response that forces me not to take you (and your sympathizers) seriously. Try responding to my post by infusing more logic and reasoning into your response than by argumentum ad hominem tactics: "Oh geez, yet another..". Don't think you can fool people with these kinds of well studied fallacies.

I repeat: You don't get to blame your students 9 times out of 10 AND at the same time say that you simply don't have slots available (thereby invalidating the first argument because there ren't 10 instances of this to begin with since you do not offer make up slots simply because these aren't available according to you yourself). The two are mutually incompatible.

If you want to write something in support of Minniemay, argue against this bit (previous paragraph), without making judgments about my character or whatever. You might be a piano teacher but you have no right to make (flawed) judgments about my character hoping that it would convince people that you are right and I'm not (somehow trying to convince people that I'm this person who disrespects all piano teachers alike and therefore anything that I say here doesn't have merit. That way, you wouldn't have to answer difficult questions). If you REALLY wanted to argue a point (and were sincere in explaining why you do certain things), you wouldn't resort to such cheap tactics.

Of course, you don't have to explain anything but if that's what you want to do, just say so. You don't have to resort to "Oh geez".

Also, if I didn't take piano teachers or their business seriously, I wouldn't pay 600 euros for 5 days (1-2 hrs each) of lessons (all of my summer savings that year) nor would I pay $60 per hour for lessons currently (I'm sure its slightly higher than the average market rate here in Ohio, correct me if I'm wrong). I earn less than $1500 a month with a wife to support who cannot work due to visa restrictions. We barely get to buy all the grocery we need every month. I still somehow budget to pay for my piano lessons because that's how much I value what my teacher has to offer me in return. So please do not insult me anymore by saying that I don't take piano teachers and their business seriously just because you don't like what I say and you don't want to address the issues that I bring up. It only reflects poorly on you. I hope you understand that.

Several of us have answered (in depth) your questions.

My statement said:



You don't like this explanation. Oh well...

No, I don't like it because there was no explanation in it at all. All you did was state what's in your policy. This is what most people have done here. If you don't want to address the issues brought up, don't do so. You're not obliged to by any means but then, why bother at all? Your posts are just a distraction then.

Here is some interesting reading that just posted today. The author is an economics professor:

http://www.mvpianostudio.com/apps/blog/show/5758387-do-you-ever-wonder-why-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority ? Nice try.

dumdumdiddle isn't guilty of that fallacy. No where in his thread is it stated that he just proved his point with support from that economist.

He simply presents another example, in the same viewpoint, from the 'opposite' side.

John Rawls, in his influential theory of justice, suggests that one way of determining whether something is fair or just is to adopt a "veil of ignorance" in evaluating a certain outcome; that is, would you think an outcome is fair if you did not know whether you were the teacher or student in the interaction?

Teachers reasonably enough think that a stringent "no makeups no matter what" policy is fair (perhaps in large part because most of the teachers here profess a kind-hearted willingness to reschedule under extenuating circumstances--which is, after all, not a stringent rule any longer). The question would be whether that policy would be considered fair if you were under the veil of ignorance and didn't know if you were the student or the teacher.

I personally am very sympathetic to the notion that lesson fees are tuitions, not hourly wages, and that they reserve a time slot, not a guaranteed number of lessons. On the other hand, I would not favor a teacher who had no flexibility at all regarding sudden emergencies or illnesses.

Different people, educated differently & with different conditioned expectations, will have varying opinions on what is objectively fair in this situation. Therefore, from my point of view at any rate, it is necessary at the outset to draw up an agreement that declares what is going to be considered fair, and give the participants an opportunity to negotiate, or to refuse to enter into the agreement. When an agreement is made it has to be taken for granted that the participants accept it as sufficiently fair, regardless of the opinions of an external observer (excluding criminal activity etc of course).

It was obviously presented with the hope that it would strengthen the "evidence" in his favor, especially because he was quick to point out that "the author is an Economics professor". I bet you $100 (that I do not have) that he wouldn't have done that if the author was a plumber or a high school teacher or a football coach or whatever. So why did he include that sentence mentioning who the author was? Its anybody's guess (is it really?).

Goodness, what a lot of good discussion on this topic. My policy states that I don't do makeups, but I usually try to fit someone in if possible. As stated earlier, if it is in your policy not to do makeups, yet you try to fine time in instances of sudden illness, you gain a lot of goodwill.

Regardless, it does nothing to diminish the points made in that article, and he is basically correct in what he writes.

Ultimately, the expectation of a student for the teacher to make up lessons missed due to unforeseen circumstances is unfair, and is really nothing more than an attempt to transfer a problem from themselves to the teacher.

Now, it may just so happen that the teacher is in a position to offer an alternative slot - after all, it probably makes little difference if they have to endure a gap in their schedule on one evening as opposed to another. However, the idea that a teacher should be obliged to keep gaps in their schedule specifically for this purpose (as some appear to be suggesting) is nonsensical IMO.

This doesn't mean that I'm not prepared to cut people a little slack, however - I think david_a's approach to this is pretty much analogous to my own, in fact.

I'm not one of them and I frankly didn't see any post here that suggested that teachers were obliged to compulsorily give a make up lesson or to reschedule a lesson. In fact, I've stressed the point that no teacher is obliged to but it would make a huge difference if they made an attempt to if it doesn't mean a huge sacrifice on their part.

When I said that, people started talking about the "huge" sacrifices, a lot of them being ridiculous (eg: investment in reading emails and answering phone calls and what not). That is not to say that there aren't sacrifices involved in scheduling a make up. I understand that but my point is that a conscientious teacher would make that effort. They would weigh that sacrifice against the benefits to the student as well as to the self (satisfaction in having made that sacrifice..in fact, its my theory that all sacrifices, in the end, are made because they are in some ways or the other self-gratifying. So sacrifices, in the strict sense of the word, really aren't sacrifices. That's a discussion for another day however). I've seen a number of teachers here who have that kind of dedication. The others quote full studios and being in demand as justification for strict policies that they adhere to without exception. I think its a valid reason but I don't believe that its ALWAYS the case that they are unable to offer that make up lesson without a HUGE sacrifice involved. They just choose not to do it, I think because they can get away with it due to being in demand. One teacher specifically admits to it and says that their "explanation" for why the policy is fair is that parents wouldn't sign it if it were not and that they have a full studio.

Well, if they are really that good and can have a full studio regardless, why would they do it? I could only study with a teacher who offered more flexibility because of my sometimes hectic schedule, but some teachers might not consider students like me a big loss. On the other hand, some teachers might want to teach someone like me so they will compromise. Don't force a square peg into a round hole.

I was at a McDonalds once and a lady had dropped her hamburger after just purchasing it. The cashier was very kind and made her another one for free, but I don't think anyone would think that the cashier was obligated to give the lady another hamburger just because she didn't eat it. On the other hand, if all fast food restaurants did this as a routine, maybe the lady would take her business elsewhere next time she was feeling peckish if the cashier did not offer a replacement burger.

I don't know how that remotely connects with the issue at hand, but it's very funny nonetheless.

Since we're a little OT, I'm adding this.

An acquaintance told about recent travel with Southwest Airlines. Her flight was cancelled and they offered her a flight several days away on a standby basis. (They did not offer to pay hotel or anything either.) If she didn't get in on standby they offered another flight which would entail an additional 5 hour wait.

Yikes! I hope I don't have to rely on Southwest!

Generally, I'm pretty flexible, I prefer to be flexible, because I know students and families can have other commitments, plus I have rehearsals to attend for various which sometimes forces me to reschedule lessons, because one of our ensemble members drives to the city only a couple days a week here to teach her own students. And I've had to take a few weeks off myself the past year to take care of my husband.

Meri