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#1626612 - 02/23/11 11:17 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Yeah, good eye, Mark! Here's what it's supposed to look like:


Odd knots, for whatever reason, seem to work sometimes. I've even seen some old splices that had the tails on the same side.

Loren, life is to short to get worked up about every little scratch or chip in the tuning field area of every newish grand piano we service. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be careful when we are servicing pianos! 99.9% of piano owners aren't going to notice or care. I hope you wouldn't bring this type of thing to an owner's attention just to share your outrage.

A Baldwin in a modern church situation has a lot more pressing issues to worry about!


Edited by rysowers (02/23/11 11:18 AM)
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1626621 - 02/23/11 11:29 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: rysowers

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be careful when we are servicing pianos! 99.9% of piano owners aren't going to notice or care.
A Baldwin in a modern church situation has a lot more pressing issues to worry about!


This is not a good reason to scratch up someone else’ property nor is this a decision made by anyone other than the owners of such property.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1626634 - 02/23/11 11:45 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I feel like that commercial where you get knocked on the head and say “I could have had a V-8!”

The Tuner’s Knot is just a variant of the Square or Reef Knot Thief Knot. Imagine moving the bitter ends so that they do not interlock. It becomes a Square Knot Thief Knot.



And this Tooner’s Knot is just a variant of the Granny Knot Grief Knot. Again, imagine moving the bitter ends so that they do not interlock. It becomes a Granny Knot Grief Knot.




Edited by UnrightTooner (02/23/11 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: Errors
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1626683 - 02/23/11 12:43 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

The Tuner’s Knot is just a variant of the Square or Reef Knot.
Absolutely not. At least not any more than it is "just a variant" of a whole bunch of other knots.

Quote:
Imagine moving the bitter ends so that they do not interlock. It becomes a Square Knot.

As soon as you change a knot, it becomes a different knot. By moving the ends, a square knot can be changed to become a sheet bend or a number of other knots, including a granny knot. But then it is no longer a square knot.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1626690 - 02/23/11 12:51 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Jurgen:

Fair enough. It would be better to say that they are in the same family.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1626875 - 02/23/11 05:19 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 401
Loc: new york city
How do we know the scratch wasn't done by a pianist, or the owner, or even another tech? The person that attempted this splice may have had nothing to do with the scratch.

But I must agree with Loren. If anyone scratched my plate like that I'd be pretty bummed out about it. And, as a tech, I would point out pre-existing damage such as this to the owner before I began any work on the piano, especially if it was a client who didn't know me well. Not to rat out a previous tech, but simply to protect myself. (Remember what Dale Fox just mentioned about the owner checking the tuning pins for damage after he replaced an agraffe?)

I've mentioned this before, but check out Bill Spurlock's method of string splicing using Vise-Grips. His technique is so much easier, and really superior than the older traditional methods many techs still use. I learned the method that Art Reblitz details in his book, and all I can say is Spurlock's method is way easier and faster. The loops are so small at the beginning of the process that it forms a much tighter knot, and splicing even thick bass string core wires becomes a breeze. It's also a method that is easy to remember out in the field - once you've done it a few times you won't make the mistake that this tech did, and the tuning stability will be better too.
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#1626877 - 02/23/11 05:24 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: rysowers

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be careful when we are servicing pianos! 99.9% of piano owners aren't going to notice or care.
A Baldwin in a modern church situation has a lot more pressing issues to worry about!


This is not a good reason to scratch up someone else’ property nor is this a decision made by anyone other than the owners of such property.


Thank you! I have to admit, I'm amused at watching so many techs totally overlook the damage to the customer's piano in order to analyze the knot.

To each his own. smile
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1626880 - 02/23/11 05:26 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: James Carney]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: James Carney
How do we know the scratch wasn't done by a pianist, or the owner, or even another tech? The person that attempted this splice may have had nothing to do with the scratch.

But I must agree with Loren. If anyone scratched my plate like that I'd be pretty bummed out about it. And, as a tech, I would point out pre-existing damage such as this to the owner before I began any work on the piano, especially if it was a client who didn't know me well. Not to rat out a previous tech, but simply to protect myself. (Remember what Dale Fox just mentioned about the owner checking the tuning pins for damage after he replaced an agraffe?)


Any time I'm servicing for a new customer, I look over the piano first for any noticeable things that might be an issue.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1627160 - 02/24/11 02:49 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeff:

You were right, of course, but I had to see it for myself (should have been named Thomas, not Mark wink ). The piano tuner's knot, and also the reef knot, for that matter, don't hold on a fish line. The tail just slips through when even moderate tension is applied.

James:

I've been to Bill Spurlock's website (spurlocktools.com), but can't find anything on splicing there. (Lots of information on re-bushing, though.) Is his splicing method publically available? If so, I'd much appreciate your pointing me in the right direction, please.

Loren:

How can you say that someone is overlooking damage in order to analyze knots? Why should the one exclude the other? For my part, I'm very sensitive about damage, and am actually looking to touch up my upright's plate where previous tuners marred it. Actually, the "knot analyzers" were only sticking to the thread topic. wink
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1627205 - 02/24/11 07:24 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
.....

Thank you! I have to admit, I'm amused at watching so many techs totally overlook the damage to the customer's piano in order to analyze the knot.

To each his own. smile


I see this as the ongoing difference between serving the customer and serving the piano. To make it short, if the customer is satisfied with previous service, I will not insult them by saying their judgment was poor.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1627206 - 02/24/11 07:25 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I tried the knot that was posted by Loren. I could not see any advantages. It does not pull up tight evenly as the standard Tuner’s Knot does.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1627228 - 02/24/11 08:17 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
I service the piano and educate the customer. And I don't leave scratches, gouges, and dings
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1627238 - 02/24/11 08:37 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 401
Loc: new york city
Mark R,

You can find the instructions for Bill Spurlock's string splicing methods in the PACE repair book, which is available from PTG. Highly recommended and covers most common field repairs in detail.
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#1627251 - 02/24/11 08:56 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I service the piano and educate the customer. And I don't leave scratches, gouges, and dings


It seems more like you are serving yourself by putting down the work and interests of others. Thanks for the education.

_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1627288 - 02/24/11 10:07 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeff:
Thanks for your field test on that "Tooner's Grief Knot".

James:
Ah, thanks. The PACE materials, at least some chapters, are on my medium-term shopping list anyway. (If I can get them here without spending an arm and a leg on postage...)

Peace to all!
Mark
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1627329 - 02/24/11 11:05 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Jeff, between turning front rail pins, marshmallow zones, pitch doesn't matter, etc, I had a really great reply, but ive decided it's much easier to just ignore you. Happy tooning. smile
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1627346 - 02/24/11 11:33 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Let's keep the knots out of the knickers, shall we?

We're all part of this knotty family....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1627352 - 02/24/11 11:39 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Jeff, between turning front rail pins, marshmallow zones, pitch doesn't matter, etc, I had a really great reply, but ive decided it's much easier to just ignore you. Happy tooning. smile


Yes, but I hope you realise something about yourself. You still had to mention that you had a reply and what it would have been about. The reply itself doesn't matter now. smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1627357 - 02/24/11 11:44 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Mark R.]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 401
Loc: new york city
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Jeff:
Thanks for your field test on that "Tooner's Grief Knot".

James:
Ah, thanks. The PACE materials, at least some chapters, are on my medium-term shopping list anyway. (If I can get them here without spending an arm and a leg on postage...)

Peace to all!
Mark


You are welcome, Mark...

Yeah, international shipping is crazy expensive...But maybe PTG can send via U.S.P.S. Might be via slow boat, but should be reliable...

If it makes sense to get a bunch of books at once from PTG (to save on shipping) you might consider the PACE grand and vertical regulation books along with the repair book. I have also found "The Piano Technician's Guide to Field Repairs" by Steve Brady to be very worthwhile. And the material covered in that book is quite different from the PACE repair book, so it can't hurt to have both...
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#1627361 - 02/24/11 11:51 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Loren D]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I service the piano and educate the customer. And I don't leave scratches, gouges, and dings

Loren,

It's very easy to brag on an online forum about how fastidious and ethical we are. It's not the best way to earn respect here. In this venue, being respectful and open to others' ways of thinking is the best way to make friends.

Some of the worst schlock artists I have known in this business have had a great song and dance that fools a surprising amount of clients. Some of the best technicians I have known have been genuinely humble and frequently self-deprecating.

In other words, "talk is cheap". On the other hand, anybody who thinks talk is cheap should get some legal advice.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1628116 - 02/25/11 06:12 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I service the piano and educate the customer. And I don't leave scratches, gouges, and dings

Loren,

It's very easy to brag on an online forum about how fastidious and ethical we are. It's not the best way to earn respect here. In this venue, being respectful and open to others' ways of thinking is the best way to make friends.

Some of the worst schlock artists I have known in this business have had a great song and dance that fools a surprising amount of clients. Some of the best technicians I have known have been genuinely humble and frequently self-deprecating.

In other words, "talk is cheap". On the other hand, anybody who thinks talk is cheap should get some legal advice.



Ryan, that would be good advice if I was bragging. smile

Striving to leave a piano at least in as good a shape as you found it is just common sense and good business practice; something every professional should strive for. I believe leaving a gouge in a customer's instrument, visible or not, is not good. I stand by that. If someone left a pretty deep scratch on something of yours while they were repairing it (your car, for example), who gets to make the decision as to whether it's an issue or not, you or the person who did it? That's all I'm saying. If I do it to a customer's piano, what I think doesn't matter. If it's an issue for the customer, then it's an issue. I've had things happen that cost me, believe me.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1628577 - 02/26/11 02:27 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Loren,

I really do agree with everything your saying. I think we all do our best to "do no harm" when working on pianos. I'm sure your clients appreciate how careful you are with their instruments.

I guess I just see this kind of stuff all the time and I don't think it is worth it to point out previous damage like this to a client as it seems that it would just create bad feelings.

Also I think when you posted the picture I misinterpreted your comments as a condemnation of those of us who splice strings, when you were really just sharing your feelings about poor repairs.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1628580 - 02/26/11 02:29 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Loren,

I really do agree with everything your saying. I think we all do our best to "do no harm" when working on pianos. I'm sure your clients appreciate how careful you are with their instruments.

I guess I just see this kind of stuff all the time and I don't think it is worth it to point out previous damage like this to a client as it seems that it would just create bad feelings.

Also I think when you posted the picture I misinterpreted your comments as a condemnation of those of us who splice strings, when you were really just sharing your feelings about poor repairs.


Ah, I see Ryan. No, that was not my intention at all; my apologies if it came out that way.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1628915 - 02/27/11 12:30 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: James Carney]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Jeff:
Thanks for your field test on that "Tooner's Grief Knot".

James:
Ah, thanks. The PACE materials, at least some chapters, are on my medium-term shopping list anyway. (If I can get them here without spending an arm and a leg on postage...)

Peace to all!
Mark


You are welcome, Mark...

Yeah, international shipping is crazy expensive...But maybe PTG can send via U.S.P.S. Might be via slow boat, but should be reliable...

If it makes sense to get a bunch of books at once from PTG (to save on shipping) you might consider the PACE grand and vertical regulation books along with the repair book. I have also found "The Piano Technician's Guide to Field Repairs" by Steve Brady to be very worthwhile. And the material covered in that book is quite different from the PACE repair book, so it can't hurt to have both...


Mark, Jeff,

I didn't have any problem getting the PTG source books shipped to Finland, and at very moderate shipping costs.

By the way, I learned to tie the tuner's knot at a hands-on class given by Ed sutton during the 2010 PTG convention. Attending that class was one of the best investments I've ever made, given that I've used the knot three times already - twice times in an old piano/old strings situation, once on a brand new Yamaha P-116 as an emergency repair. (Can't remeber who commented on the upper wounded strings on the new Yamahas (Bill perhaps?), but boy do they break easily!)

This said... in my tuner's culture, If I propose a splice they think I'm nuts. Same with using CA for tuning pins. Guess it's different methods for different areas. Well, I once more fall back on Jerry G's wise words inherited from his father: "Whatever blows your hair back"... smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1629109 - 02/27/11 10:03 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
grin That's right Patrick!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1630215 - 02/28/11 07:59 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: pppat]
Wayne Gregory Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Angier,NC
"Never splice in the speaking length", I've always been told, so I had to test this 'truth' on my old piano in the shop.
After attending a splicing class in Fort Smith, AK., I was really happy with the small, neat coils I was getting after 30 minutes or so of practice with my new round nose pliers!
Contradictory results. It sounded great. I could not tell it was in the speaking length.
Conclusion: Would not generally recommend it--the following tech would certainly dis-own knowing me; but he may wonder, like me, why did it work?

Wayne Gregory
Angier, NC

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#1630258 - 02/28/11 09:20 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: pppat]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: pppat

This said... in my tuner's culture, If I propose a splice they think I'm nuts. Same with using CA for tuning pins. Guess it's different methods for different areas. Well, I once more fall back on Jerry G's wise words inherited from his father: "Whatever blows your hair back"... smile


Every piano I've seen (all two of them!) that was doped with CA glue was a disaster. Whoever did it didn't lay the piano back, first off...and used accelerator after treating. The pins are still too loose to hold and there is white, hardened ca glue all over the plate and pin area. Just a mess.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1630271 - 02/28/11 09:41 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
You guys have actually caused me to reconsider my anti-splicing stance. I guess I can see the merit of splicing an old bass string where a new string is going to sound noticeably different. On treble wire though, I'd still replace, since there usually is no noticeable difference between old treble strings and new ones.

Who says people are stubborn as they age? :p
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1630332 - 02/28/11 11:46 PM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: rysowers]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
That's what's so great about our business! There is always new ways to grow and things to try. Some techniques we use for the rest of our careers, others are discarded. There is such a technical smorgasbord out there to feast on!

One of the things I enjoy about attending the conferences is rubbing shoulders with some of the older guys - many who are now in their 80's or even 90's! Some of the claim they are still learning new things! I find that inspiring.

You certainly can't learn it all in one lifetime! thumb
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1630358 - 03/01/11 12:23 AM Re: To Splice or Not to Splice? [Re: Loren D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: pppat

This said... in my tuner's culture, If I propose a splice they think I'm nuts. Same with using CA for tuning pins. Guess it's different methods for different areas. Well, I once more fall back on Jerry G's wise words inherited from his father: "Whatever blows your hair back"... smile


Every piano I've seen (all two of them!) that was doped with CA glue was a disaster. Whoever did it didn't lay the piano back, first off...and used accelerator after treating. The pins are still too loose to hold and there is white, hardened ca glue all over the plate and pin area. Just a mess.


Loren,

There is a right and wrong way to do everything. CA glue treatment is off topic for this discussion but since you brought it up, I have encountered many such jobs that were very well done. You could not see a trace of the glue. I could only tell be the feel. That initial "sticky" feel often breaks in well and the tuning pins have a completely normal feel after a few tunings.

Patrick,

Yes it was me that mentioned a certain vintage of Yamaha where the highest two single strings inevitably break. I won't try to tie those any more. It is possible, yes, and I have done it but there is so little room and the core wire is such a large size that I would rather get a new string.

On the subject of a splice in the speaking length, on plain wire, it would make for an untunable unison. The knot adds mass and thus lowers the inharmonicity so it won't match the other string. On a wound string, however, it is necessary to peel off about 1/4" of winding to have enough room for the knot. The shorter winding raises the inharmonicity. The two often counteract each other perfectly, leaving the spliced string with a perfect match for its neighbor.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
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Understanding Sharps
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When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
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