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I thought this lively discussion deserved it's own topic. Here is a few of the good quotes from the other topic: ...Broke another string in the bass and broke a previous splice, also.
Five splices total, so far… For me, a splice is only a temporary fix - next time round fit a new string? If you've have five 'splice repairs' so-far, doesn't that suggest something? I do understand what you mean. But it is like a little bird and a big worm. Where do you try to bite it off, if you can, when you start to eat? Five new strings, four of them in bichords would make the bass sound odd. Even replacing the other four, nine strings, and the bass still sounds odd. So replace them all, but not the treble strings on a 1950s piano? OK, replace the treble strings, too. And the hammers and dampers? Now we are talking about re-what-evering, which I am not set up for, and I don’t have anyone to recommend for a low-level piano. How about a new Yamaha console for about the same price? And so I leave such thoughts entirely to the customer. If they are happy with a tuning every few years with a free splice thrown in, why shouldn’t I be happy, too? How about starting with "when a string breaks, replace it?" Sorry, but I'll state again that I am firmly anti-splice. I just see it as a sub par repair. Yes, I've heard lots of rationalizations about why it's better than replacing, but in the end you still have a string that's tied in a knot. If my car needs repairs, I want it done right, not band-aided. I just tell the customer there's a broken string, it needs replaced and I'll order a new one. I've yet to have a new string in a piano sound objectionable. They may stand out in appearance, but an accurately made replacement has never left a piano I serviced sound peculiar. I realize there's a pretty strong debate about this in the trade, with strong opinions on either side. Makes for good discussion. Not all pianos are fixed for the same purpose. Higher end and most newer pianos benefit from a repair that leaves them looking and playing like they never had a problem.
Older pianos that are nearing the end of their life can be revived with simple procedures like splicing a string (non speaking length). Cosmetics and having a knot is not an issue with most of these but it is essential to explain this to the customer before hand. I would not call it a "band aid" solution because if its done right, it could and should outlast the piano. If its done right, no one can hear the difference and it introduces no additional problems.
I had a customer with a 30+ y/o spinet that occaisionally suffered from broken strings near the upper bass. They always broke near the tuning pin. Part of the problem was because of the pins being bashed in too deep along with some poorly located tuning pin holes in the block. They were charged for string replacements several times by another tech but the problem continued. I backed the pins out and CA'd the hole and then set the pins in at the proper height. I fixed the problem with some oversized wire splices and no more breakages occured. It was cheaper and more permanent fix.
The customers' over all impression was that the previous tech didn't know or care to splice it and did the only thing he knew how to do, replace with a new string and leave the underlying problem there. This is a band aid solution also, just a more expensive one for the customer whose resentment will remain with that tech.
You are correct Loren, but very few of these customers care about a knot being there let alone lift the lid on their uprights to look inside. I simply discuss the matter with them and give them the option to choose.
There is no solid evidence to show that a properly spliced string is in any way inferior to a new one other than cosmetics when the cause of breakage is addressed as I mentioned. Why would you not offer this cheaper option and exhibit your flexibility and capabilities in dealing with the problem in a more frugal manner? With some practice and the right tools you can make these knots quite small and quite close to termination points. I have some needle nose pliers that I cut short and ground down a bit to make a tight small loop. Some of my splices are done so that they end up very close to the termination point after the string is pulled to tension.
As for looks, I actually prefer to see a small knot instead of a whole shiny new wound string on these older pianos. As for bichords a spliced original string will usually sound better than changing out only one of the pair with a new one as I see done very often around here.
One way I get the knot tighter is with an altered pair of hammer shank knurling pliers. I ground a thin slot in the jaws in the same plane as the handles. I can then put the straight part of the string(s) in the slots and squeeze the knot tighter. As I said in an earlier discussion, I look at knots as a temporary repair, which sometimes outlasts the piano. Knots are definitely less strong than a new piano, as the tight bends induce fatigue.
If you were to replace 5 bichords, both strings, you are getting to the point where it is as cheap to replace all of them, but sometimes replacing the piano is cheaper. Craigslist here has a fairly new Chinese studio piano for $500 now, which is a better deal than repairs on a piano that is breaking a lot of strings.
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I love the look of a tidy string splice - it says to me "a Pro was here"! The thing about them is that they take a lot of practice, and sometimes we go months without needing to do one! It really helps to have someone really good at them spend some time showing how it's done. This is an important skill in a piano technician's arsenal. I once had the pleasure of spending a day with Steve Brady (author of "Under the Lid" ) with a couple of other folks doing nothing but string repairs. It was very helpful! Being a stubborn "I never splice" technician seems strange to me. It would be like never splicing a hammer shank, or never fixing a cracked bridge with epoxy, or using CA on a pinblock. The main reason I can see for not splicing a wire, is that it's hard! I can't remember the number of times I've performed blood sacrifice during a string repair! And there's always that moment when you pull it up to pitch - a good time to practice deep breathing and going to that "happy place".
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I never splice hammer shanks.
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I love the look of a tidy string splice - it says to me "a Pro was here"! The thing about them is that they take a lot of practice, and sometimes we go months without needing to do one! It really helps to have someone really good at them spend some time showing how it's done. This is an important skill in a piano technician's arsenal. I once had the pleasure of spending a day with Steve Brady (author of "Under the Lid" ) with a couple of other folks doing nothing but string repairs. It was very helpful! Being a stubborn "I never splice" technician seems strange to me. It would be like never splicing a hammer shank, or never fixing a cracked bridge with epoxy, or using CA on a pinblock. The main reason I can see for not splicing a wire, is that it's hard! I can't remember the number of times I've performed blood sacrifice during a string repair! And there's always that moment when you pull it up to pitch - a good time to practice deep breathing and going to that "happy place". I don’t like splicing strings. I can’t remember the last time I did one. But that doesn’t mean they are not an appropriate repair. And next time a string breaks while I’m tuning I’ll probably have to struggle some to remember just how to make one. But I’ll probably figure it out. Done well, they work—and they work for a long time. I’ve discovered them all rusted and corroded on pianos that have come in for rebuilding. They had to have been there, working away nicely, for decades. The only place I don’t like them—and won’t tolerate them for long—is in the speaking length of the string. This, it seems, is most often found on wrapped strings just behind the agraffe (or termination pin). But, even here, I’ve found them years or decades later. (I’ve been known to splice a few hammershanks from time to time as well. And I use a lot of epoxy. Not much CA, though. I hope this doesn’t disqualify me as a professional whatever-it-is-that-I-am.) ddf
Delwin D Fandrich Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant ddfandrich@gmail.com (To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)
Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
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The only place I don’t like them—and won’t tolerate them for long—is in the speaking length of the string. This, it seems, is most often found on wrapped strings just behind the agraffe (or termination pin). But, even here, I’ve found them years or decades later.
Agreed. I would only do a speaking length splice in a dire emergency and would correct it ASAP. (I’ve been known to splice a few hammershanks from time to time as well. And I use a lot of epoxy. Not much CA, though. I hope this doesn’t disqualify me as a professional whatever-it-is-that-I-am.)
Dunno, Del. No CA? You're skating on the edge there . . .
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Call me crazy, I think a piano string should be in one piece. And I've yet to have someone convince me that is as professional (both in appearance and performance) than a new string.
Like I said, put yourself in the customer's shoes. Do you want your things fixed right or corners cut?
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Call me crazy, I think a piano string should be in one piece. And I've yet to have someone convince me that is as professional (both in appearance and performance) than a new string.
Like I said, put yourself in the customer's shoes. Do you want your things fixed right or corners cut?
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I never splice hammer shanks. Neither do I!
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I never splice hammer shanks. Neither do I! Would either of you please explain why not? You show up—as I have—to tune a grand for some performance and find out that the local amateur tuner broke the top three hammershanks the last time he pulled the action. You know the kind of break; snapped right at the hammer. Gluing it back together as is just isn’t going to make it. What are you going to do? Tell the artist, “Sorry, it is my policy to never splice hammershanks so you’ll have to wait until I can obtain three new hammershanks from wherever to repair these three notes. You’ll just have to avoid playing them tonight.†A good scarf joint is as strong as the original, looks good and will last until the local tuner breaks them again. ddf
Delwin D Fandrich Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant ddfandrich@gmail.com (To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)
Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
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Call me crazy, I think a piano string should be in one piece. And I've yet to have someone convince me that is as professional (both in appearance and performance) than a new string.
Like I said, put yourself in the customer's shoes. Do you want your things fixed right or corners cut? Well, for starters, a properly spliced string will stabilize much more quickly than a new wire. Secondly it alerts a technician in the future that the string broke - it's a marker of sorts. It says "proceed with caution!" Third: It's more economical for the client Fourth: It is quicker - it allows for a repair under rigid time constraints Fifth: There is no difference in tone. Sixth: As mentioned earlier it can be very long lasting. Seventh: It demonstrates skill and professionalism if done properly. Eighth: It is part of the PTG Technical Exam: So if you can't do it, you will lose points. (if you get enough other things right you will still pass - kinda like parallel parking on the driving test!) OK. Now lets see...reasons to NOT splice: One: A perceived notion that it is inferior, without any real physical or accoustical reasons to support the notion. Two: Perhaps allows the technician to make a little more money off the client. Three: Gives another opportunity to see the client in the near future. A bonus if you really like the client's company.
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I never splice hammer shanks. Neither do I! I've done this many, many times over the years and have yet to have one fail.
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I have tons of old grand hammer shanks lying around, so replacing them is no problem. It is easier to replace an upright shank than to get a good joint on one of them. It is even harder to get a good scarf joint on a grand shank. I have broken a lot of spliced hammer shanks.
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Here's a question...
Would you consider splicing bass strings that break at the hitch pin end? I've had this happen to me with a very old upright. I replaced the strings. But, I've wondered what other folks would have done.
Joe Gumbosky Piano Tuning & Repair www.morethanpianos.com (semi-retired) "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
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Well, for starters, a properly spliced string will stabilize much more quickly than a new wire. Maybe, maybe not. Secondly it alerts a technician in the future that the string broke - it's a marker of sorts. It says "proceed with caution!" I can usually spot a replaced string, too. If I cannot, chances are the piano is new enough that a warning will not help. Third: It's more economical for the client Maybe, maybe not. Fourth: It is quicker - it allows for a repair under rigid time constraints I can replace a plain string faster than I can splice it. Fifth: There is no difference in tone. Perhaps. Sixth: As mentioned earlier it can be very long lasting.
Or not, but a new string definitely will be.
{quote]Seventh: It demonstrates skill and professionalism if done properly. So does replacement. Eighth: It is part of the PTG Technical Exam: So if you can't do it, you will lose points. (if you get enough other things right you will still pass - kinda like parallel parking on the driving test!) I can do it two ways. It is just not my preferred method. OK. Now lets see...reasons to NOT splice:
One: A perceived notion that it is inferior, without any real physical or accoustical reasons to support the notion. I have broken a number of strings at the splice. I have also come across splices that rattle Two: Perhaps allows the technician to make a little more money off the client. I do not make any significant money from tuning compared to my investment income. In any case, there is no monetary advantage in splicing a plain string, and very little in replacing a wound string, when you consider the time involved in ordering the string. Three: Gives another opportunity to see the client in the near future. A bonus if you really like the client's company. A knot tightens over time, too. There is not that much difference. You have to go back, or let them put up with poor tuning. Had you listed these in the opposite order, you could probably find 8 advantages to replacement and 3 advantages to splicing.
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I do a lot of string splicing mainly because they hold pitch better than a new wire. The repair is quick and looks nice (tight knot with no ugly tails).
Splices are particularly useful in the lower tenor range where replacing wire would require fishing the new wire under bass strings. I'll almost always try a splice in bass strings unless the break is in the speaking length.
'The hitch pin end of bass strings? I generally reach for the package of universals and advise a replacement. I do remember once clipping the end of a universal and using that in a splice. 'Don't remember the exact circumstances.
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String splicing is fine for a beat up old klunker upright or grand, but I would never splice wire on a new or somewhat newer $50-100,000 grand in a home setting. Temporary splicing is ok in a concert situation, but new strings go on when the piano has some downtime. Same for hammer shanks. The piano didn't come out of the factory with splices, nor should it live its life with splices. Too damn ugly.
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist. Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080. Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
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...
'The hitch pin end of bass strings? I generally reach for the package of universals and advise a replacement. I do remember once clipping the end of a universal and using that in a splice. 'Don't remember the exact circumstances. I didn't think anyone else would. I keep old universals with me on the road... ones that cannot be sold as new because over time they have cosmetic/discoloration problems. Thanks !
Joe Gumbosky Piano Tuning & Repair www.morethanpianos.com (semi-retired) "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
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Here's a question...
Would you consider splicing bass strings that break at the hitch pin end? I've had this happen to me with a very old upright. I replaced the strings. But, I've wondered what other folks would have done. I've done it successfully a couple of times. AND unsuccessfully a couple of times!
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For the splice to be stable you have to really snug the not together. I squeeze the loops with pliers to tighten them up, and also put some needle nose pliers on the wire just on either side of the knot and tap the pliers on the side towards the knot to snug it up even more. Sometimes it holds pitch really well, and sometimes it still wants to slip a little flat - but not nearly as much as a new piece of wire.
But I'll agree with the fact that a knot that is not stabilized will be as unstable as a new wire. So the extra work is the key.
When splicing I usually try to use the original wire as the lead. This also seems to hasten stabilization.
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String splicing is fine for a beat up old klunker upright or grand, but I would never splice wire on a new or somewhat newer $50-100,000 grand in a home setting. Temporary splicing is ok in a concert situation, but new strings go on when the piano has some downtime. Same for hammer shanks. The piano didn't come out of the factory with splices, nor should it live its life with splices. Too damn ugly. Yea. That's a point that I overlooked in my post. I tend to encourage replacement with new wire in higher priced pianos ... although, ... I remember a few that were temporarily spliced and the customer never wanted the spliced string replaced. 'Guess my splices are just things of beauty. Incidentally, I eventually came to the place where I charged the same whether the string was a new replacement, or a splice. Each job comprised about the same amount of work.
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Piano
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