to find a teacher. Everyone I've looked at either looks sketchy or doesn't teach adults, and honestly, I keep trying different websites and such and it seems like there's barely any teachers in my area. Does anyone know how to find a good teacher??

Ask real live students who are like you (i.e. adults, especially adults who are interested in the same kinds of music as you are).

See if there's a local music teachers chapter in your area that you could contact. To get you somewhere, you can try the "Find a Certified Teacher" function on this website. It's the only search I can think of at the moment.

http://www.mtnacertification.org/

There are plenty of fine teachers out there that don't have this certification, and so therefore it's hardly all-encompassing, but I hope it can help you get started.

If there is a university in your area, contact the chair of the music department. That person will often be a storehouse of information. The chair will be able to make suggestions, or to point you to others who will be able to help you.

Google piano teachers in your area. Need to be sure to ask them about their musical backgrounds, but not every good teacher is a member of an area organization.

What city are you looking for a teacher in? Also what is your level and what style of piano are you interested in learning?

JPE

Also try your local music stores (as in musical instruments/sheet music) and talk to them.

Especially ask at those stores that don't offer lessons themselves.

I ended up posting an ad on Craigslist listing exactly what I was looking for.

I spent a rigorous two months trying out various teachers and combing through ads, online searches, etc. Yes, it's incredibly hard to find a good teacher for adults even if one is willing to travel and pay a premium.; this was even for a new instrument.

I find that very surprising actually. I couldn't care less how old my students are. What a ridiculous situation. I hope you are able to find somebody soon.

Start here and call lots of teachers in your area and ask them for recommendations and maybe a one-time lessons.

http://www.mtna.org/Resources/ChoosingaMusicTeacher/tabid/400/Default.aspx

Americans have much longer work weeks than most countries, excluding Asian countries.

Due to lack of time, almost all piano students are children, and many teachers, even good teachers, have a hard time teaching adults, since the skill set between teaching an adult and teaching a child is different.

There are several music stores in my area that teach piano to children, but will not take adults, and one is even a piano store.

If you have a modicum of people skills, you can teach any age. I get a bit tired of these cliches. Maybe teachers who won't teach adults are scared of being held to a higher standard or worry that they will have to try harder to impress. I certainly don't buy the idea that adults are harder to teach than children or that they need a drastically different skillset. Yes you need specific skills to communicate with a child, but any adult should be able to communicate with another adult. The basics of teaching are the same, just the mode of speech changes. Children also vary a great deal in maturity. Some teenagers are like adults. Do they get turned away? Anybody who can't adapt to an adult is really not flexible enough.

I enjoy the fact that my oldest student is 65 and my youngest is 6. And I have every age group in between. It's really not that hard. I don't want to talk to 6 year olds all day, and I wouldn't want just adults either. Variety is the spice of life.

No one said that adults are harder to teach. There is just a different approach. This is the same across any subject. Adults do not learn in the same manner as children. Period. The basics of teaching are NOT the same and anyone with any knowledge of Education could tell you that.

Not to mention, some people just don't like working with adults for other reasons, and I even know some piano teachers who only like working with adults and not children. Sometimes it's a preference of who you'd rather teach. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Would you say that someone who prefers teaching a high school class, but not elementary, is a bad teacher just because they know which age group they'd prefer working with? No. No you would not.

And MOST piano teachers *do* take on both, by the way. Again, it's always just preference and experience.

Ando, while some of your posts are kind and productive to the actual topic, most always come across as aggressive and rude, as well as taking things to extremes when no one provoked an argument, or taking things VERY out of context. I hope you realize that your posts will be eventually just become filler, much like what has happened with a few others who are just here to fight. We're here to discuss and learn, not argue.

Are you accusing me of having no knowledge of education? Does 20 years of teaching all ages not count as a useful apprenticeship to you? There are plenty of things in common with any age of student. You are over complicating things. I'm aware of the differences, but any decent child teacher could teach an adult if they wanted to. I was responding to the notion that the reason people don't teach adults is because they lack the "skillset" to teach them if they specialise in teaching children. I don't believe this to be the case.



Choice is fine, that I don't mind. As I stated above, I was responding the notion that some teachers lack the "skillset" to teach adults, yet they can teach children. Seems more of a self-imposed limitation.


You are just backing up my point that teachers can generally do both with no great difficulty or challenge to their "skillset"



The comments from your post that I highlighted in bold most certainly fall into the "rude and arrogant" category. I think we have a double standard here.



Speak for yourself, not for others. I've had a lot of good feedback from a lot of members on PW. My PM box is full of supportive comments. You are projecting your own feelings onto other people. For whatever reason, you have taken a dislike to me, and I'm sorry about that. But that was a pretty personal swipe, to suggest I am headed for "filler" status, was it not? I do stay pretty close to the topic at hand. I provide challenges where appropriate. A forum isn't just a place for cosy banter - it's also a place for robust debate. You seem to have no trouble levelling your most honest opinion of me here without restraint. Odd that you should ask me to be more restrained than your good self.

And you are right, I do it from a position of kindness. I don't feel any hostility for anyone here, but I will challenge what I find illogical. If people find malice in my comments, well that's forums for you - there are bound to be misunderstandings.

I too think Craigslist might get you in touch with the right person. Wouldn't hurt to give it a try.

I too noticed that some teachers don't accept adults. One friend in particular has young students who truly excel. I found out she doesn't take adults. Personal preference I suppose.

I hope you find a good match!

Ando--

1) Actually, I did not support what you said.

Where you repeatedly say that all that matters is the form of communication and that there are no differences in the type of education required:
"I certainly don't buy the idea that adults are harder to teach than children or that they need a drastically different skillset."
"The basics of teaching are the same, just the mode of speech changes."
"Anybody who can't adapt to an adult is really not flexible enough."

I did not imply that you have no knowledge of Education. I was referring to the field of Education has grown million-fold and how we now know of the differences required for teaching adults vs children. What you say in your posts, however, is unfounded.

I did say that most teachers take on both. I did not say it's because there is no difference between adults and children - it's because the teacher has learned how to teach both. Sure, it's a great skill, but again, not everyone wants to do it. There's nothing wrong with that.

2) PM'd you.

yeah im trying to steer clear of the ones that do because they're basically a rip off. I have a meeting with my first potential teacher tomorrow at noon in mclean!!

I don't think they have to be a rip-off. I just think they are more likely to say "just come study with us" and not wish to keep you informed about other teachers.

I've been thinking about this all day:


Could you describe or explain these differences?

Google would do you a world of better than anything I can tell you would.

I'm a linguist by trade, so my education in, well, the education of languages and the science thereof is all I know in detail. For example, children learn best through immersion up till age 9-11 on average, whereas teens don't, but it comes back slightly as an adult. Adults see an increase in audio learning while children need kinetics and visual aids. Adults also have a better grasp on concepts produced in analytical ways, such as a grammar book. You wouldn't give a 5 year old a plain grammar and a dictionary and teach them how to decipher a text.

Of course, this is just a very basic example, and there's much more to it. I wish I could describe it to you, but other than knowing the basics of it as well as mostly applications to what I studied, I can't say I know all the details. Sorry!

A very, very, very short version:

Children up to the age of 7/8 have no interest in concept-first learning. They do best with experience and exploration first, with the theory about that experience coming along once the experience has been fully experienced....

Adults and adolescents feel stressed-out and discombulated if they don't have some kind of understanding about what they are trying to do before they actually try to do it. Exploring without any sense of how this experience fits into their already quite well-ordered world just isn't any fun at all. So learning often is best accomplished via a concept-first approach: the teacher and student discuss the idea, the teacher demonstrates its practical realisation, and then the adult attempts their own performance/experience. This is partly because adults are highly literate, and this speeds up conceptual learning - symbol systems are understood, even if the symbols are new.

A further difference is that children are often taking piano as part of their parent-directed education; as it very often should be. Adults have made the decision for themselves, and are often juggling family life, work life, financial pressures, health concerns, car trouble, what-have-you, with their practice schedule. Children tend to be struggling with homework, and that's it. This creates a different set of pressures.

While the business of playing the piano is the same no matter what age you are, there are some significant differences between the actual business of instructing adults and instructing children.

There is a whole body of educational research dedicated to adult education as distinct from the education of children.

Now *that's* the sentence I'm taking exception to!! Recent research shows Australian workers are at work more hours than anyone else in the western world!

Can't be bothered finding a source, but needless to say, that's what the Australian media is reporting to its Australian readership!!! It stands to reason that the US media is telling its readership that US workers are the hardest working too!! What is absolutely true is that US workers have shorter holidays, usually 2 weeks. Here in Australia 4 weeks is standard. But that doesn't impact on the number of hours worked during the working week - or maybe it explains why Australians work longer working weeks......:-)

Great post Elissa!

Forgive me if I over-simplify as I try to get at some thoughts. My understanding: The approach is to give adults concepts first as described. Secondly I will extrapolate that since adults are deemed not to have the time, less time expenditure may be asked of them. Adult method books seem to reflect some of this, and in addition they feature well known and liked music. We can only look at books, since we cannot actually watch teaching happening.

I think that one can get at the essential part of playing music on an instrument that way.

In starting any instrument, I would want to avoid concept-first in most cases. This is due both to my experiences so far, and from my understanding of learning. Limitations in both language and music learning among adults is often pointed out, with the idea that we are somehow set in stone like hardened wax. I suspect that what has been described in the area of concept is a major factor. I want to go further with this.

If we begin with concepts, then we translate them into what we already know. The experience is then also not pure, since we are hearing what we expect to be there. Simplistically: in language learning the student will translate sounds into the sounds he already knows, and impose familiar grammar and syntax. He literally does not hear the modeled sounds, so he cannot begin to produce them. We don't want that. We want to hear what is actually there, and get away from this tendency. For larger concepts, we end up "translating" them.

"Understanding" in music involves the senses, the body, and the mind. Sometimes the learning happens first in the body, and only later does the mind catch up to the fact that it has been learned. The intellectual explanations are a crude sketch of that. I sense a danger, if I begin with words, that I will hear what I expect to hear, per my own translation through my experience, and won't get at this at all. I would much rather begin with the experience, in as open a way as possible. One can understand intellectually, and even write learned works, without having touched much of anything. That is, if we want to get at musicianship. This is my present thinking.

If the aim is to make us comfortable and give us what we are used to, is that necessarily a good thing? Will that lead to eventual musicianship, or just the ability to play familiar music in an acceptable manner? The thing is that problems in adult learning are often cited. Could this be a factor? Are these the bricks in the invisible brick wall?

Time and again adults have come into this forum stating that they, alone or with a teacher, have opted for method books for children, because the approach for children better suited their aims and nature. Yet those books were written with the nature of adults, as understood, in mind. How can this be so?

I think it depends on who we are, how we learn as individuals, what our goals are, how far we are willing to go, and what we want to invest into it.

It is indeed true that we conceptualize, and young children are still concrete thinkers. That is basic educational psychology and it is not wrong. But what is needed for playing an instrument? What do we do with these factors?

One thought that came to me is that the adolescent has also had years of schooling. He has to give the "right answer" and be able to study along a set line of thinking. Is it possible that the discomfort in not understanding conceptually is linked to our mode of education?

I concur that there is a difference between teaching adults and children. You find your voice automatically changes and you are suddenly very vigilant for clues that a child has understood what you are asking them to do. There is an anticipation that conceptual thinking is limited and thus you refer to a different group of techniques to ensure the message gets through.

The reason for my posts earlier was not about disputing the specialised knowledge it takes to teach children. It was about whether it is really such a reach to also teach adults - even if you are currently teaching children exclusively? I don't believe it is for the following reasons:

1) Most of the techniques that work on children, also work on adults - to differing degrees. They aren't mutually exclusive.

2) As adults, we already have an awareness of what works with other adults in terms of adapting our mannerisms and vocabulary to suit the student concerned.

3) We can quickly establish what sort of thinker the adult student is. It doesn't take long at all to establish whether an adult student is very visual, non-visual. Whether they want the magic fast track to playing old favourites or not, or whether they understand the long term nature of music learning. You can find all these things out quite quickly from an adult. Children also have these traits in them, it's just that we tend to think we can drum these tendencies out of them more readily - sometimes we can, sometimes we can't. Sometimes we shouldn't.

4) Adults will usually give ample feedback as to whether they feel the lessons are engaging them or satisfying them. When they do this, it's important to just make sure you are ready to change your approach if necessary.

5) Adults are usually more upfront with their insecurities about learning. Why they think they may not be able to do something. This information is very helpful when planning how to steer such a student away from trouble and toward a goal. Children are usually more reticent in this regard.

Not a complete list by any means, but every one of those short points that a teacher should be able to do quite easily - not just as a result of their experience in teaching children, but due to their experience in interacting with other adults in the general world. Most of us have had the responsibility of teaching another adult at some point - even if it's just teach mom or dad how to use the internet! We see what sorts of barriers people can put up to learning - mostly caused by self-confidence issues. There are also those who think they have something all worked out before they actually have... The point is, we have all interacted with a large variety of other adults and had to instruct them on something at some point. It gives you some background to what an adult lesson might be like.

In addition to being able to understand how other adults think and take onboard information, many of the skills that we use to teach children are still useful. It's just that we need to find a different mix of everything for the adult student. There is actually a lot of variability in all students. All students will present a different (and complex) tapestry of traits, abilities and tendencies. As teachers, it's our job to assess each student with fresh eyes and ears. Don't assume anything about any student. Establish it first hand every time with each new student and things tend to go better for everybody concerned. Some children are conceptual students from quite early on. Some adults do respond better to immersion than concepts. There is significant cross over. Every student is different, so we need the understanding and skills to change and adapt to them.


I hope I have made my point clearly this time without upsetting anybody. By the way, I can appreciate that teachers who normally teach adults could have trouble making the transition to teaching children. As has been stated, you need to have some grasp of how children think. I suspect that a parent of a child would make this adaptation quite readily due to their understanding of how they explain things to their own children. In a similar way, I believe our interactions with adults give us a good understanding of how they think and vary and makes the transition from teaching children to adults not such a big leap. We may not realise it, but we are adapting ourselves all the time every time we meet a new person. We are better at that than we think.

So my basic message is: come on teachers, don't be afraid of teaching other adults. It seems like it can be quite hard for an adult to find a teacher in some parts of the world. It's not so bad! Just use the skills you have as a teacher and as a citizen of the world who has interacted with many people in many situations - and even in educational roles like teaching your mom/dad something, instructing a work colleague etc. I don't believe it should be a frightening transition.

By all means, stick to children if that's what you prefer. This is directed only at those who might consider teaching adults but fear that they might not be equipped to do so. I believe most of us are.

I agree, Ando.

However, it isn't always lack of skill, or fear of such lack, that stops teachers from taking adults. Some teachers refuse to take adults because of their high (relative to children) rates of quitting, failure, inflated expectations, and absence - this leads to higher risk of lost income for the teacher, and some teachers just prefer to avoid that risk.

Adults in my studio pay several months in advance - my attempt at mitigating these factors.

The expectations that teachers have in regards to adults is something that we adult students must be aware of, because they can cause problems in a number of ways. These expectations can be due to the teacher's experiences. Thus, when we approach a teacher, there is the shadow of the students who preceded us. We are not these other people, but they have seen a pattern and fear we'll repeat it. We not even be granted an interview or trial lesson.

Teachers also have expectations because they have been told that we think a certain way, want certain things. Some will then gear their teaching toward this. This is a trap for both student and teacher. We don't know this is going on. We think that you are teaching what needs to be taught to master the instrument so we go along with it. So the formula of "not too deep or too demanding, not much technique, little theory, popular music that everyone loves" gets applied for example. Or there is the case of the PWer who loved the way her teacher was demanding and organized with her son, took lessons herself, and couldn't figure out why the teacher was suddenly laid back and chatty. We must speak up! Teachers welcome being told of goals and intentions. But we have the wrong idea of being deferential, silently following along. And so this misconception perpetuates itself.


If an adult has been with your for several years, do you still insist on that policy? If an adult comes to you who has an excellent record in studies over the long term with another teacher and maybe another instrument, do you still apply that policy? In other words, for how long will you apply the reputation of a group to an individual?

met with my first potential teacher today!!! he's really awesome and pretty young, which is cool. the commute is a HUGE negative though. It took me about 45 mins to get there. I have another teacher lined up who holds his lessons at GMU which is an all-steinway school. I would love to learn on new steinways but if the teacher sucks then forget it. ill keep yall posted

I've been looking for a teacher for several months. I've gotten quite a few leads, several from PW, but each has led to a dead end. Every teacher I've contacted has told me they currently have no openings. If I were a beginner, I'd have many options. I've contacted teachers at local colleges (we have several), music schools, private instruction. I've been surprised at how difficult it is to find a teacher for a serious adult student in this area. I asked our church pianist if she has openings, and she does, but doesn't teach classical. That's a deal breaker for me. I've decided to let her know that her studio doesn't offer what I'm looking for.

I emailed yet another teacher earlier today, and am hoping that she has an opening. She sounds very promising. It would be a 45 minute drive, but I'm more than willing to do that. I hope I hear back today, although the college she teaches at may still be on break.

Good luck with your search. I have to believe that if you don't give up searching, you'll find the right teacher.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but "All Steinway School" means all the pianos are from S&S, which include Bostons and Essexs. Both are fine instruments, but if you're looking for a Steinway B in the practice room you probably won't find it.

In both cases, no. An adult student who practices effectively to the best of their ability for a year, and then comes back, doesn't get the pay-in-advance treatment from me, nor does an adult student whose history I know, when that history is told to me by another teacher who I trust.

All Steinway School means Big Marketing Gimmick, that's what it means.

I've had a couple of teachers in my life who, even if my practice piano had been a Steinway C with my own personal technician, I still wouldn't have learned anything.

And what about children whose parents are untrustworthy. What about the children who don't practice effectively? Do they get put into that policy?

Can you see how unfair this is to anyone of good character, to bear the consequences of other people's reputations by association? If you started lessons in a new instrument right now, would you expect this policy to be applied to you?

You have to realize where I'm coming from. When I started lessons as a novice they were all year, 52 weeks, and we were subject to normal expectations. There was no question that we would not attend or pay or practice. All this seems strange to me. And I'm afraid a tad insulting even if I'm trying to be understanding.

Yes. Everyone pays in advance. No favoritism, no problems for either student or teacher. Tuition is always due by the first lesson of the month. What's so strange about that?

David proposed a special policy to be applied only to adult students, where they alone must pay several months in advance. Children are not subject to this policy. The message is that because of my age group I cannot be trusted. Not because of who I am.

It was also unfair for me as a responsible, intelligent fourteen-year-old to bear the consequences of other people's reputations by not being permitted to drive, or to vote. It is not up to you how I run my business.

David, I'd appreciate it if you lifted the aggression. I have at all times addressed teachers respectfully, tried to see their point of view as well as my own, and you know it. In this forum we are going beyond how any one person does things personally. We are also getting at general views collectively and I assumed it was a dialog. Nobody ever said anything about how you should run your business. I have policies because of being cheated in the past, but I am also aware that it may be unfair to some individuals, and I wish that human nature were not as it is. Do you see the difference?

If you were a good enough teacher and you felt forced to have such a policy, then I'd comply with it. But the human feeling is there. I take pride in what I do. I expect consequences for my own behavior and that my reputation is based on what I do, and not what others do. This is not pleasant.

ks, the problem with stereotypes is that they are true often enough that generalizations are safe. I, too, have had a number of adult students, and the ratio of students like yourself to those mentioned by David is something on the order of 6 to 1 or higher. Which means that good students such as yourself, who are both regular and also punctual with payments, don't have a high absenteeism rate, don't quit after 4 or 5 months, end up paying a price for the many who do. It's not fair, but in case you daddy didn't tell you, life isn't fair. We simply have to work around these issues and make the best of it.

John, precisely. On a pragmatic level, there are two things I hold important:

- That students who are serious about music study are not locked out of the chance to do so because of the stereotypes. I would hope that teachers reading these generalizations will not then conclude that everyone in that 80 year age bracket is like that. A requirement of a larger prepayment, if I can swing it, is a lesser concern. Not even being able to get in is the biggy. If we can't get a decent teacher, everything else is moot.

- The stereotype of what we all want to learn, and how. This should really be determined rather than assumed. The whole direction of our learning hinges on this.

In the least, I'd urge teachers and students toward better communication if this isn't already happening, and on our side, to be informed. There are a few things that I wish I would have known when I started out the first time.