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#1605527 - 01/25/11 06:45 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Jake

Aren't they absolutely exquisite? It's great that you've enjoyed them and for my part I think these recordings in this sort of temperament start to reveal the music in just the same way that we have seen art galleries clean paintings to reveal their virgin colours.

The piano was something like a tone and three-quarters or more down and was impossible to pull up - so that would have been around 395 or so. Jill did valiantly and hampered by perfect pitch in these circumstances found it very difficult to play!

Possibly the recordings are starting to show that the 18th and 19th century piano and its repertoire were really a very different beast from the instrument as we perceive it today. Our concentration is focussed nowadays in obtaining mirror glistening smoothness in which nothing must upset the glassy sea, whilst formerly being able to see the rocks on the seabed an to batten down in a squall were events to be celebrated in the music.

In view of the fact that I gained the concept of only stretching the top two octaves from an English tuner, I wonder if there is a difference of approach between US and English methods? Perhaps the modern method of applying continuous octave stretch to paper over the cracks of inharmonicity has tuned out an aspect of the piano similarly masked by the inharmonicity of equal and pseudo-equal tunings? Aiming for areas of purity and letting the impurities take care of themselves for special effect in the black keys possibly allows harmonies to be reinforced . . .?

To my mind, the Mozart Fantasia is the very most interesting in the way in which those opening appegiated chords shape-shift as they emerge out of the darkness into a joy . . .

Certainly attempts at authenticity have been made before but, to my limited knowledge, I have not come across ones with audible temperament and, in the strive for real authenticity, earlier instruments tend to be used about which I find myself less able to relax into the music.

This is an iron frame straight strung instrument and, Viennese, has the hammers back to front and covered in leather.

Best wishes

David P

Postscript - just looked at the Betsy TuneLab file which is labelled -179cent . . . So that's the pitch!

Whilst looking at the files - here's the Hammerwood Bechstein inharmonicity measurements:
IntervalSel 0 0
IHCon E1 0.169
IHCon A1 0.073
IHCon D2 0.101
IHCon A2 0.145
IHCon D3 0.152
IHCon A3 0.366
IHCon D4 0.448
IHCon F4 0.546
IHCon A4 0.941
IHCon A5 2.065

Here are the Emerson inharmonicity measurements:
IntervalSel 1 2
IHCon C#1 0.735
IHCon D1 0.329
IHCon A1 0.304
IHCon A#1 0.261
IHCon D2 0.254
IHCon A2 0.285
IHCon A#2 0.263
IHCon C#3 0.228
IHCon D3 0.158
IHCon A3 0.357
IHCon D4 0.523
IHCon A4 0.936
IHCon D5 0.204
IHCon A5 2.598
IHCon D6 3.114
IHCon A6 5.473
IHCon C7 6.223


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/25/11 07:05 PM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1605616 - 01/25/11 09:39 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
Certainly attempts at authenticity have been made before but, to my limited knowledge, I have not come across ones with audible temperament and, in the strive for real authenticity, earlier instruments tend to be used about which I find myself less able to relax into the music.

Thanks for the clarification. Now i understand what you're trying to do. A lofty goal! Indeed all recordings I know of of JSB are either on a harpsichord close to what he would have had (authentic), or on a modern piano (modern).

What you're trying to do (apart from the temperament issue) is to reconstruct how Schubert (say) heard Bach when he played it on his piano. It seems an original idea and definitely interesting.

I think you need however a rebuild or replica of an 1850 (say) piano that sounds like a new one did at the time, to get the desired effect. Temperament is a rather subtle part of the sound, and really comes out once everything else is as it should. Otherwise it's like an exquisite paint job on a car with rust holes. smile

Kees

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#1605642 - 01/25/11 10:17 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
For my entire adult life, I have noticed that all recordings I have been aware of, of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier music on the modern piano have been in ET. I quit my membership with Musical Heritage Society over that issue when I received some publicity that stated that Bach "invented ET and it has been universally accepted ever since".

Actually, I sent a letter disputing this information but MHS interpreted it as a request to terminate my membership, so I let it go.

I, for one, would welcome some piano recordings of this music in a true WT, whichever it may be.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1605826 - 01/26/11 08:10 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Bill

I agree with you so much on your stance - I was hearing something by Handel yesterday - perhaps the Harmonious Blacksmith - and as I was listening I became increasingly annoyed at not hearing the shape shifting of the chords that I knew from experience to be hidden within the intentions of the music. The result was trite - it was boring - and I believe equal temperament has been responsible for so much of the lack of interest in classical music.

Kees:
Quote:
I think you need however a rebuild or replica of an 1850 (say) piano that sounds like a new one did at the time, to get the desired effect. Temperament is a rather subtle part of the sound,


In fact, this piano unrestored is as close to the sound of a piano of this period as one can get - the leather hammers are in good condition, unworn and in a very fresh condition.

Academically it was important to have done a recording with the original strings and we are looking forward to further concerts this year on the new strings and at 440 pitch to see the difference. After much consideration we opted for Roslau steel and after experiencing French organs at 390 pitch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSf7-4t_SWc

it will be interesting to experience the change of tone as we raise the instrument to 440.

Nevertheless, listening to these recordings I find them refreshing and certainly able to display the temperament. Whilst the modern fashion is to stay as close to hiding the temperament and to make it interesting as close to equal as possible, I beleive that temperament was a colour that was intended to be heard, which was enjoyed as such, celebrated and relied upon by composers to add dramatic effect. From the recording of some of the 48 on this piano in my opinion there is a correlation between the character displayed by the temperament and the energy of the writing. For this reason, despite the different idiom of the 1850s piano to which we are not accustomed, I regard the recording as musicologically valid for consideration.

I do not think that temperament is or was intended to be a subtle part of the sound, rather in contrast that it was intended to be pretty obvious to all.

Best wishes

David P

(PS We have also experimented with what Bach would have experienced hearing Bach on Meantone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uj9MORwoF0)


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/26/11 09:31 AM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

Top
#1605848 - 01/26/11 09:11 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
David and all,

Take a look at this piano dealer's website. He never tunes any piano in ET. If you click on the pianos with the musical notes icon, you can hear samples of them being played.

The new Shigeru Kawai I know is in Marpurg which is a quasi ET and the other new Kawai just sounds a little out of tune t me, so the restored pianos are the most interesting. Although these are older pianos, they are mostly re-manufactured or rebuilt to like new condition.

These are probably all tuned in 1/7 Comma Meantone or this technician's favorite version of that, 1/7 Comma Meantone with one pure 5th between B and E. He uses this temperament as anyone would use a Well Temperament. It became Steinway artist, Perter Serkin's favorite temperament.

http://www.farleyspianos.com/pages/gallery.html
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1605863 - 01/26/11 09:39 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Bill, in identifying that temperament as 1/7 Comma Meantone (or some variation on it), can you give me some pointers what to listen for?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1606111 - 01/26/11 04:01 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Bill

It's great to find a dealer steering away from pure ET . . . and hopefully I might inspire you to encourage some of your more adventurous clients to get you to try the more interesting temperaments for them.

They can seem frightening at first, perhaps, but from all that we've experienced in the Hammerwood experiments, the 18th and 19th century composers steered away from anything directly nasty, inverting chords or dropping notes from close triads anywhere in anything with lots of accidentals where they wanted to use the remote keys for special effect.

The first chord of the Chopin Raindrop Prelude is just such an example where, in the key, that interval should sound awful, but doesn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA

More remarkably is that we have not found any late century or C20 music which is at all upset by playing in the temperament - you'll probably have heard some Debussy among the corpus of recordings.

Best wishes

David P


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/26/11 04:51 PM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

Top
#1606343 - 01/26/11 09:28 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
I do not think that temperament is or was intended to be a subtle part of the sound, rather in contrast that it was intended to be pretty obvious to all.

I used to think that too but have been told so many times in my life that I'm completely wrong on this that I don't believe it anymore.

Do you have any historical justification for this nice idea besides your own (and mine too, for all that matters) taste?

Cheers,
Kees

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#1606373 - 01/26/11 10:25 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered

(PS We have also experimented with what Bach would have experienced hearing Bach on Meantone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uj9MORwoF0)

I think you'd get a better idea by playing one of the many real organs in the Netherlands tuned in 1/4' meantone temperament.

Unequally tuned organs

I have played Bach on the meantone organ in the Oude Kerk in Amsterdam. Some of his very early works fit quite well.

I am pleased there are only a few tuned in the horrible modern Kellner unequal temperament which seems to have infected North American baroque organs for some reason.

Kees

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#1606410 - 01/26/11 11:28 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Bill, in identifying that temperament as 1/7 Comma Meantone (or some variation on it), can you give me some pointers what to listen for?


It sounds very much like any Well Temperament in that each key has a distinct color. The key of C major is really not as mild as many WT's would have it but because of equal beating 3rds & 6ths, it often sounds milder than it really is. This is the same acoustical trick found in the either version of the EBVT.

They key of A-flat, however is quite distinctive. It has a wide Major third and a wide and beating 5th. It gives that key a kind of energy that is not found in any WT. It would seem to be the key that is not useful but instead, performers of Romantic era music have used it and all the power it has to their advantage.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1606424 - 01/26/11 11:51 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
Dear Bill


The first chord of the Chopin Raindrop Prelude is just such an example where, in the key, that interval should sound awful, but doesn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA

Best wishes

David P


David, I can hear the very rapid beats but I also notice how extremely delicately the performer plays the interval. One performer I know used to say that you touch the keys the way you would touch a wound to see if it is healing, with gentleness, reticence, expecting pain from it.

It is in this way that the temperament influences the way a performer interprets a piece. I can remember from early discussions of this matter in another forum, someone saying blatantly, "I would not want the way the piano is tuned to influence my playing!"

There was no way to say anything to that person or all who chimed in to agree with him. ET was the "neutral palate" and any further discussion was unwanted. As in a court of law, the question had been asked and answered; stop trying to bring it up again!

Yet, only 10 or so years later, I find you with some very astute observations and an incredible amount of interest on You Tube of which I certainly had no part.

I have heard that same piece any number of times performed by professional artists in the 1/7 Comma Meantone. Most of them were not aware that the piano had been tuned any differently, yet they sensed a certain power from the piano. It was a sense like one may feel when driving a large and powerful automobile when one is used to driving a small, economy car. One takes it easy on the accelerator or the vehicle will lurch ahead. Easy does it and you will go for a smooth ride.

Of course, none of this is possible with any of the player piano recordings I have done. They are all played just as the original performer executed them, yet we do hear the contrasts of dissonance and consonance in them.

The live performers in the list of recordings I have did, however respond more sensitively to the piano. I recall one Czech artist who remarked after playing Chopin in the 1/7 Comma Meantone, "I have never dared to play a piano so softly, yet it beckoned me to do so".
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1606539 - 01/27/11 07:44 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
I do not think that temperament is or was intended to be a subtle part of the sound, rather in contrast that it was intended to be pretty obvious to all.

I used to think that too but have been told so many times in my life that I'm completely wrong on this that I don't believe it anymore.

Do you have any historical justification for this nice idea besides your own (and mine too, for all that matters) taste?

Cheers,
Kees


Dear Kees

I recall reading somewhere that more than one composer complained of lack of key colour but the reference escapes me. We are dealing with a timeline of changing fashions and opinions accordingly viewed through spectacles of modern sound so removed from the time period and through so many changes of fashion of musical taste and of instruments, that we can only have as our guide the musicological evidence and our ears - but our ears wide open without the blinkers of the modern lenses that we see with.

Of documentary evidence attuned to our ears, I believe that

heard in our stronger than fashionable (barely audible) range of temperaments demonstrate clearly audible emotional effects on a spectrum of correlation or sp with the musical subject matters or spirit of the music. Other recordings - the Haydn songs for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzlvFcYdVjs are more merely pleasant than demonstrating scale of correlation.

Those correlations I take to be an indication that the composers would have written expecting the temperament to be clearly heard and contributing to the musical effect of the composition.

Certainly a Haydn contemporary, Christian Ignatius Latrobe was writing songs which when accompanied in strong UT correlate well. Latrobe and Haydn when he was in London were part of the erudite social city scene at the time including Dr Burney, who on page 157 of his book
http://www.organmatters.co.uk/index.php?topic=229.0
records the writings of Walter Evesham who mentioned discordant thirds and issues of what was to be called temperament.

You mentioned in your second post European organs in Kellner: the organ is so much more difficult in many ways to find any one particular temperament to settle upon. Much music was written for the more complex more modern instrument in equal temperament that some things sound awful in any temperament. A good test is the Boellman Priere a Notre Dame in A flat - which turned me off Werkmeister for life . . . and Kirnberger would have been even worse . . . and no doubt would be bad in any temperament of the German family of that scale of strength. In contrast, playing it at St Maximin worked fine - a French temperament possibly close to D'Alembert, although I'm not sure.

It's for this reason that whilst I have experience of temperaments for piano, strong enough to hear but hopefully within the bounds of good taste and pleasantness on the ear, I'd like to work more with organists in experimentation. Certainly Kirnberger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgFQGHBpUqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GyFn7Wmps8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V140SVz0_xg
worked well for Bach.

I'm not sure what
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOgX69-aLZg
was in
but we tried a number of temperaments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teVlrYJGKAE
but we have to take off our spectacles and not wince when we hear a temperament effect. But a lot more research and trials are needed with a whole range of repertoire. The period of Mendelssohn and Cesar Franck is so interesting - so much on the cusp of Equal Temperament that I suspect few have explored the effects of a UT and the effects that they would have expected their audiences to have heard. The organ is so much purer in tone than stringed instruments that tuning criteria may be different and finding a temperament which does what one wants a good temperament to do that fits everything quite well is a challenge. The St Maximin temperament is a contender, however.

In seeking a good temperament, one of my requirements is being "well behaved", giving purity in the commonly used white keys and letting the rarely used black keys look after themselves . . . for when one wants to go there . . . for fun!

:-)

Best wishes

David P


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/27/11 08:15 AM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

Top
#1606556 - 01/27/11 08:34 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

David, I can hear the very rapid beats but I also notice how extremely delicately the performer plays the interval. One performer I know used to say that you touch the keys the way you would touch a wound to see if it is healing, with gentleness, reticence, expecting pain from it.

It is in this way that the temperament influences the way a performer interprets a piece. . . .

I have heard that same piece any number of times performed by professional artists in the 1/7 Comma Meantone. Most of them were not aware that the piano had been tuned any differently, yet they sensed a certain power from the piano. It was a sense like one may feel when driving a large and powerful automobile when one is used to driving a small, economy car. One takes it easy on the accelerator or the vehicle will lurch ahead. Easy does it and you will go for a smooth ride.

The live performers in the list of recordings I have did, however respond more sensitively to the piano. I recall one Czech artist who remarked after playing Chopin in the 1/7 Comma Meantone, "I have never dared to play a piano so softly, yet it beckoned me to do so".


Dear Bill

I think you're spot on with these thoughts and without doubt Adolfo Barabino and his students would agree with you wholeheartedly.

There is a breed of musicians who fear the challenge that UT brings as perhaps it creates and demands the sensitivity of the masters. The result can be exquisite and performers experiencing it can then go back to ET and perform with the same dynamics if not the colours themselves.

Your name has cropped up from time to time when I have dipped into internet references to temperament and I had recognised that you had been rather ill treated elsewhere on account of fear of your superior knowledge and intolerance to its implications.

Quote:
touch the keys the way you would touch a wound to see if it is healing, with gentleness, reticence, expecting pain from it


This must be one of the most profound statements of technique and musicianship.

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

Top
#1607575 - 01/28/11 02:53 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

I have remarked upon the St Maximin temperament and have just looked it up . . . it worked well for Couperin and de Grigny but suprisingly well for remote keys.

It appears to have been devised by Dr Raber together with the organ builder Yves Cabourdin - a meantone modified comprising 7 quints altered by 1/5 comma and two quints augmented by the same amount. This appears to be based on Rameau "Nouveau systeme de musique théorique" 1726 para section 24 on temperament.

However, from the examples I head on Bill's website, I mistakenly thought that he was recommending something fairly mild. However, perusing http://www.rollingball.com/ I note that http://www.rollingball.com/EBVT17.htm looks interestingly spicey but
http://www.rollingball.com/EBVT15.htm appears to be well balanced and reasonably coloured. It's not a million miles from
http://www.rollingball.com/images/BroadwoodsUsual.gif
and
http://www.rollingball.com/images/BroadwoodsBest.gif which is of the same spirit:
http://www.rollingball.com/images/TunersGuide1.gif
and
http://www.rollingball.com/images/PrinzT.gif
together with the Jorgensen variations and the famous Stanhope:
http://www.rollingball.com/images/StanhopeT.gif
.

So in short to the question "would temperaments have been _heard_?" the answer based upon so many historical precedents must be a resounding "Yes".

So although it might be a shock to the system, if it's too subtle for an audience to be aware of, it's not working as it should . . .

Of course, there is a difference between being aware of and noticing . . . but perhaps we might explore that further?

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1609906 - 01/31/11 10:14 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Today I bought Johnny Reinhard's book "Bach and tuning". See here.
Interestingly enough he argues WM3 is the best tuning for Bach, and other (later) music, for reasons (you should hear it's unequal) similar that you mentioned.

(Context: usually one argues WM3 is too strong for Bach, let alone later composers.)

Apparently Bill Bremmer had some customers that requested "EBVT classical" (quite strong) instead of EBVT3, presumably too so they could hear more clearly the tonal differences.

Kees

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#1610365 - 02/01/11 02:44 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Kees

It's a great relief to see your post! I had referred to some people appearing to follow the Lehman tuning as a religion and feared that you might be a member . . . !

As a scientist I don't like the concept of the temperament on the academic principle that it is presented as the _only_ solution to the squiggle problem, and that in the context of having turned it upside down without looking at possible solutions the obvious way up.

As a scientist I ask the question "does it fit into the pattern of other results", (results being known temperaments) and if it doesn't, I have to give low weight to the evidence that it provides.

I find that discussing an issue on a forum like this concentrates the mind . . . and thoughts have been circulating, recently more inspired by the article by Claudio Di Veroli in the latest Harpsichord & fortepiano magazine, subscription to which I heartily recommend.

Di Veroli writes on the title "Vallotti" as the ideal German Good Temperament. He details Werkmiester III and in his researches pays particular attention to the circle of errors of major thirds, the primary indicator of key colour and acceptability and points out that Vallotti tempered Werkmeister's A-E-B. This favoured keys with flats and Young shifted it one sharp to the right to give C as purest rather than F.

Personally I have no objection to the validity of a slight preference to F and B flat as playing with brass instruments - possibly a feature of use of organs with trumpets - would enable the perfect pure harmonics of the brass to accord with the keyboard. Why would brass instruments favour B flat? Is this a function of pitch from France, so that brass instruments originating in France at around A=390 or so would cause the C to be everyone else's B flat. A conjecture irrelevant here . . .

Veroli's thesis continues by grouping temperaments into Meantone (broken by wolfs), Good ("circulating") and Equal. He takes groups of temperaments, looks at the thirds in their deviation from pure in each key, averages all of the group and presents the graph of deviations of Vallotti's thirds against the Werkmeister temperaments, III, IV, V and VI. Vallotti follows the average of Werkmeisters very very closely. He does the same for Neidharts circulating temperaments 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,10,11 and two more. Three of these circulating Good temperaments (Well Temperaments in the Bach tradition), Neidhart lables "suitable for a Big City" (8), "suitable for a Small Town" (1), "suitable for a Village" (2). One must observe these to be strange associations (I wonder what the differences are?) but indicative of the generality of the use of Good Temperaments as opposed to suggesting any universality of the quasi equal experience.

Di Veroli compares the Vallotti variations against the Neidhart's temperaments and finds a similar correlation of Eb Bb F C G D A E leaving B F# C# G# only as coloured as E at the expense of making F and G slightly more coloured than C, unlike Vallotti which gives similarity to F C G alike. It's for the reason that Lehman does not accord with any of the Good Temperaments, or the generailities that Di Veroli demonstrates with averaging them that, like others, I have given little attention to it. However, this thread is not about how questionably wrong LB might be but how right the Werkmeister tradition may possibly be . . . Certainly following Di Veroli, any explanation of Bach's squiggle which accords with the generality of Good temperaments known and used generally has a high probability of being what Bach intended. (As an aside, was Bach demonstrating how uniquely clever he was or teaching a pupil the generalities of good musicianship of which tuning was a part? Not the thrust of this thread but clearly a pertinent consideration).

Certainly the Di Veroli averaging process, showing a general accord between the circulating Good Temperaments in providing harmonious home keys leaving black keys to look after themselves to which one goes if one dares, and no doubt for special effect, demonstrates the validity of taking any of the Werkmeister family temperaments as a start for experiment, without necessarily being too "precious" about which _one_ might be "right". It suggests that Reinhard is certainly on the right track, but which particular side-road one might take in choosing any one particular variant for any one composer, might be flawed or might take an awful lot of performances to decide the relevance of the smidgeon of differences between any of them in particular.

Di Veroli comments that "some influential musicians of the mid-18th century, like Gottfried Silbermann and Telemann (1742) advocated 1/6 Syntonic Comma meantone instead, supported in modern times by Professor Duffin. Those proposals were misguided" and he explains that they had equal thirds and a wolf, with 4 thirds intolerably wide, in contrast to the circulating temperaments.

(One might observe that it might be in the struggle between Silbermann and Werkmeister philosophies that Bach wrote his 48 and the squiggle, representing a general Werkmeister family temperament rather than any intention to require or create a special interpretation)

De Veroli points out that "Vallotti" was used on at least one Italian church organ before the Trattato was published in 1754 - suggesting that it was simply recording a tuning in common use rather than in any way inventing anything new.

My thesis is that, all roads leading to Rome, tunings within the Prussian, Medici and north Italian realms may well have been spread with the travelling of musicians. This may have been associated with Protestantism in Germany and Prussia and Calvinism in Switzerland, Austria and Northern Italy being east of the Savoie and that there may have been a different dissemination of tunings in France which may have remained religiously more aligned to the Meantone families, and differing circular temperaments such as Rameau and D'Alembert.

Fine for Baroque. Probably entirely accepted ground . . . What evidence is there for the 19th Century? I have none, other than the experiments I've been doing with a continuous series of concerts and recordings . . .

With Polish origins, this _might_ put Chopin within the Prussian traditions in terms of requiring a circular tuning in which all keys are playable, effects of tunings and preferences and use of keys. Certainly one should also experiment with Schubert, Moscheles and the other Prussian/Austrian composers.

I believe that the tuning profession may have gone through a significant change of perspective, looking at the piano now as a discordant percussion instrument which has to be tamed like bells, producing creamy smooth progressions of beats rather than an instrument capable of expression through pitch beyond dynamics. This occurred a long time ago from the change of fortepiano in the drawing room to PianoFORTE in the concert hall and my experiences of visits to the piano collection at Finchcocks, as well as my own instruments of which the Emerlich Betsy is an interestingly preserved sound, reinforce a view of the very different soundscape that the 19th century experienced.

This has also led to a change of playing technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAhbLlXFdaA and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubjdT41PH5g are very much in the tradition of the percussive view of the instrument and Beethoven, whilst Adolfo Barabino and his circle are more in the orchestral and tonal view of the instrument which can produce different results. Somewhere I have recordings of Adolfo and Michele D'Ambrosio playing the Beethoven sonatas but have yet to put them on YouTube.

Adolfo grew up listening to the orchestral records played by his father and tried as a child to imitate the orchestral tonalities on the piano . . . Impossible, one might think, but Adolfo can play a passage of Beethoven and say "now hear the violins coming in . . . " and in the spirit of what is attainable on the instrument, one does.

I believe that hearing the tonalities produced by effects of temperament, as Bill has pointed to already, cause musicians to listen more carefully to the music that they are making, and possibly thereby to make music rather than a mere performance. Certainly the tonal evidence for making these experiments is strong, even if we don't have the written documentation or instructions to lead us. There are clear benefits of the audible Good Temperament to be heard and explored and perhaps we are seeing hints that the Good Temperament (Well Temperament as opposed to Equal Temperament) was in much wider universal use both geographically and temporally than general musical scholarship gives credit for.

Best wishes

David P


Edited by Unequally tempered (02/01/11 03:48 PM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1611057 - 02/02/11 10:10 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 586
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
... Three of these circulating Good temperaments (Well Temperaments in the Bach tradition), Neidhart lables "suitable for a Big City" (8), "suitable for a Small Town" (1), "suitable for a Village" (2). One must observe these to be strange associations (I wonder what the differences are?) but indicative of the generality of the use of Good Temperaments as opposed to suggesting any universality of the quasi equal experience.

David P


I've never read that he distinguished any temperaments by the size of the town. I wonder if the distinction was based on the size of the instrument, with village churchs having relatively humble organs with fewer octaves and shorter pipes compared to those in cathedrals in large cities? But I'm not sure how, in reality, the difference would play out in the temperaments. The larger instruments would have less inharmonicity, given the longer pipes?


Edited by Jake Jackson (02/02/11 10:10 AM)

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#1611106 - 02/02/11 11:38 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
... Three of these circulating Good temperaments (Well Temperaments in the Bach tradition), Neidhart lables "suitable for a Big City" (8), "suitable for a Small Town" (1), "suitable for a Village" (2). One must observe these to be strange associations (I wonder what the differences are?) but indicative of the generality of the use of Good Temperaments as opposed to suggesting any universality of the quasi equal experience.

David P


I've never read that he distinguished any temperaments by the size of the town. I wonder if the distinction was based on the size of the instrument, with village churchs having relatively humble organs with fewer octaves and shorter pipes compared to those in cathedrals in large cities? But I'm not sure how, in reality, the difference would play out in the temperaments. The larger instruments would have less inharmonicity, given the longer pipes?

The 4 Neidhardt temperaments were called by him as such, with the 4th (ET) for the Court. It was purely a marketing branding. They are decreasing in strength,
the idea being that simple folks in a village will not play very sophisticated music and will use mainly the keys with few if any accidentals so we can get away with remote keys being rough as they won't be used much. In his branding scheme he then imagined musicians get smarter depending on the size of their city and Court musicians he imagines so smart they move through all keys at will.

Nowadays good names would be "1 - baroque", "2 - Bach-baroque", "3 - Victorian", "4 - equal".

2 is very close to Bach-Lehman (reverse), 3 is very close to EBVT 3, and 4, well we all know what 4 is...

Kees

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#1611124 - 02/02/11 11:59 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
I had referred to some people appearing to follow the Lehman tuning as a religion and feared that you might be a member .

I am neither a religious follower of Bach-Lehman temperament, nor a religious basher of Bach-Lehman temperament. I'm still not convinced you are not a member of the latter cult.

Anyways as a scientist you probably know you should keep an open mind and not deny the facts. And a fact is that Bach-Lehman and its left-right interpretation are very nice baroque temperaments.

Kees

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#1611208 - 02/02/11 02:15 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: DoelKees


Nowadays good names would be "1 - baroque", "2 - Bach-baroque", "3 - Victorian", "4 - equal".

2 is very close to Bach-Lehman (reverse), 3 is very close to EBVT 3, and 4, well we all know what 4 is...


Dear Kees

:-) To be perfectly honest I put low weight on evidence from Neidhart as he identifies so many possibilities that it's clear that he is theorising rather than in any way documenting practical existing systems. The evidence of Di Veroli is that Werkmeister / Vallotti variations were in widespread use over a very large region. In view of their geographical penetration they may have held sway for a much longer period than has been thought and my thesis is that it is only the attraction of the modern Concert piano and the new "atonality" as a correspondent here identified which led to a change.

(As an aside if any temperament deserves the title of Bach, it is Barnes on account of its Werkmeister - Vallotti heritage as modified on just one note by study of Bach's frequency of use of thirds. Another contender for the Bach title I understand was also based on Werkmeister but I have not examined yet that connexion.

The Lehman solution is one solution to the Bach Squiggle equation, but it is not the unique solution. Bearing in mind that other solutions are possible, and that other solutions are possible with the higher liklihood of interpretation of the quiggle the correct way up, I believe that it is academically sloppy to give the LB temperament the "Bach" title especially as
(1) LB temperament does not fit the generality of Good Temperaments in common use, as shown by Di Veroli
(2) The probability was that Bach was addressing the Meantone vs Good Temperament issue current at the time rather than distinguishing any Good Temperament from any other Good Temperaments . . .
)

If the LB temperament was peculiar to Bach, it was certainly not in common use nor does it relate to those in common use, and is therefore in my opinion irrelevant to the issue of the range of temperaments that we might explore in which to perform Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin and Schubert.

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1611254 - 02/02/11 03:08 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
I wonder if the distinction was based on the size of the instrument, with village churchs having relatively humble organs with fewer octaves and shorter pipes compared to those in cathedrals in large cities? But I'm not sure how, in reality, the difference would play out in the temperaments. The larger instruments would have less inharmonicity, given the longer pipes?


Dear Jake

I think that Kees has correctly identified the reason here but as an aside, organs to my knowledge don't have the inharmonicity issues common to pianos, save in baroque reed pipes which have an excitement all of their own -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGDiA3fidA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSf7-4t_SWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxPooeWo64k

In general in contrast to strings the fatter the flue pipe in proportion to lenth gives bigger sound and the thinner pipes more of the higher harmonics. Pipes are largely one dimensional vibration whilst strings, as iron bars, are two.

This is one reason why unequal temperament in remote keys may be less offensive with music not written for it on the piano rather than the organ, which is why I would not hesitate to recommend audible unequal temperaments on the piano but on the organ I believe serious experiment to be needed throughout the repertoire . . . which I am looking forward to doing with an adventurous organist!

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1611508 - 02/02/11 09:35 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
As an aside if any temperament deserves the title of Bach, it is Barnes on account of its Werkmeister - Vallotti heritage as modified on just one note by study of Bach's frequency of use of thirds.

The Barnes study is flawed. I performed a full automated analysis of the 48 including M10 and M17 as well as M3, included the fugues too, and included the minor key pieces. The result is that here is no evidence whatsoever of certain intervals being avoided and hence no data to deduce any temperament from. I should really publish these results if I get some spare time.

Kees
Added in Edit:
Comment 1: I do like the Barnes temperament, but it has 2 Pythagorean thirds which I do not like. It does not improve on Werckmeister 3 in any way, just like Kellner. If you just spread the B-F# 1/6 comma 5th over 3 consecutive fifths you practically have Bach-Lehman reversed (one of the alternative solutions).
Comment 2: Lehman deserves to have his name attached to the tunings because he was the first to recognize the loops as indicating proportional size of fifths; previous stuff about beatrates is really nonsense (IMHO I should say).
Comment 3: The worst M3 in Lehman tunings is 1/12' smaller than Pythagorean, whereas in Neidhardt the worst M3 is 1/6' narrower; hence somewhat milder (more equal).
Comment 4: I've had my piano in WM3 for a couple of days now and start to like it more and more. You can get used to Pythogorean thirds! smile


Edited by DoelKees (02/02/11 10:22 PM)
Edit Reason: Add comment

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#1611656 - 02/03/11 04:55 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Kees

Thanks so much for your detail - especially on the Barnes variation. We are at so much of an advantage nowadays with computer analysis.

On the Lehman issue, having tried Werkmeister and begun to like it, I think after a while you'll find that being milder does not necessarily help the music. Whilst I acknowledge Lehman's inspiration that the squiggle was not a random doodle, the problem is in the ascribing of _that_particular_temperament_ to Bach and, bearing other possibilities into account, it's misleading to present this temperament to novices to the subject as _the_ Bach solution.

If you're getting used to Pythagorean thirds . . . then perhaps I can see you going towards Barnes. Kellner is of course another possibility, as you say, but I'm intrigued that you say that it's as flawed as Barnes . . . Your analysis there would be much appreciated.

Whatever variation of Werkmeister you use, you'll find that Chopin in particular avoids the juxtaposition of nasty thirds.

What really needs research is the effect on key colour of the shift of Werkmeister from favouring F to favouring C . . .

(What also is curious is why Bach chose A flat especially with which to annoy the organ tuner as one might have expected C sharp and F sharp to be similarly severe . . . or was it simply the A flat E flat wolf? Jorgensen ascribes the phenonomen to A flat being the last note to come into any use on the keyboard in the history of music . . .)

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1611856 - 02/03/11 12:18 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
On the Lehman issue, having tried Werkmeister and begun to like it, I think after a while you'll find that being milder does not necessarily help the music.

I learned to play (pipe) organ on an instrument tuned in WM3. For 3 years I tuned the harpsichords here at the University in WM3 (except one for earlier music in 1/4' meantone).

When Lehman's article came out I gave his tuning a try and have not gone back. In fact for piano my favourite tuning is an even milder temperament of myself. Indeed, why would you not tune according to your personal taste on your own instrument? My ears have now adjusted and it will take a while before getting at ease again with the Pythagorean thirds.
Quote:

If you're getting used to Pythagorean thirds . . . then perhaps I can see you going towards Barnes. Kellner is of course another possibility, as you say, but I'm intrigued that you say that it's as flawed as Barnes . . . Your analysis there would be much appreciated.

My take is that WM3 is great, its only disadvantages are these Pythagorean thirds. Kellner and Barnes still have these, though fewer of them. If you're willing to put up with Pythagorean thirds, I prefer to get maximum payback which WM3 delivers. Kellner and Barnes I called "flawed" as historical temperaments, they are modern inventions. Kellner was a nut (IMHO) and Barnes had a good idea but he should have been less lazy and count more M3's than just the major key preludes.
Quote:

Whatever variation of Werkmeister you use, you'll find that Chopin in particular avoids the juxtaposition of nasty thirds.

Do you have any particular piece in mind? I do have most of Chopin in MIDI and can easily check such claims.
Quote:

(What also is curious is why Bach chose A flat especially with which to annoy the organ tuner as one might have expected C sharp and F sharp to be similarly severe . . . or was it simply the A flat E flat wolf? Jorgensen ascribes the phenonomen to A flat being the last note to come into any use on the keyboard in the history of music . . .)

The reason is simply that wolf fifth of course, which is the price you have to pay for nice M3's everywhere, and which is the signature of meantone which the organ tuner in question (Silberman) tuned.

Cheers,
Kees

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#1611887 - 02/03/11 12:55 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Kees

Your research on Chopin's avoidance of direct major thirds in possible nasty keys could give us a most important clue as to any F-C bias of tuning possibly in use. Not sure about sixths, but certainly at the beginning of the Raindrop, those two notes are more than an octave apart - and that's what I mean but avoiding nasties. I hope I have explained the idea intelligibly . . . !

Of course one must be aware that sometimes nasties were intended, but as yet in experiencing Chopin in this family of temperaments, none have jumped out and bitten us yet . . .

You may have the proof at your fingertips . . . !

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1612507 - 02/04/11 07:55 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

I have just received a PM (which I'd taken ages to recognise with just the flashing envelope) . . . :

Quote:
I am not sure I will have much to contribute to the discussion except for a comment about heightened sensitivity to the music while playing in a "tonal temperament". smile About this, I have much to say and, in fact, started a discussion thread about it in Pianist Corner. After I have taken my time to read the Sweet Videos thread (not just skim it, as I have) and to study your recordings, I might post my thoughts. I have noticed that my shaping of phrases is much more nuanced when I listen carefully to the way the beats of certain chords affect my timing and tempo.


He's using Bill's Equal Beating temperament and I have replied suggesting that he might ask Bill to tune his instrument to a stronger tasting curry . . .

On that, I'm wondering if Kees might tire of unmodified Werkmeister's unrelenting harshness. . . ? Proposals of toning it down in whatever ways may not at all have been misguided whether by Vallotti, Young or more recent analysis. I note that like myself, Dr Miller's experiments with Chopin used a modified Werkmeister.

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1612603 - 02/04/11 11:31 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Kees

I've finally found the article I had been looking for before:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Bach_Seal.pdf

The comparison of thirds is interesting so far as the results Francis derives there from Bach's seal differ with Kellner only in A flat . . . which is interesting bearing in mind Kellner's reputed similarity to Werkmeister which is something I have not yet properly examined . . .

So perhaps the line between being a nut and genius is thin?

It's no wonder Kellner has the reputation of being a "nut" trying to digest
http://www.harpsichord.org.uk/EH/Vol2/No8/matharch.pdf
until one reads:
Quote:
Certainly such games were even even described in Johann Gottfried Walthers Musicalisches Lexikon of 1732 7 and by his teacher Werckmeister in Musicalische
Temperatur^, 1691, chapter VI.


One has to bear in mind that before television and now the length of time we spend communicating through the internet, there wasn't much else to do and so such intellectual games and, to our minds, nonsenses occupied the mind amusingly. "History is a foreign country", as they say.

http://allaindu.perso.neuf.fr/publications/TEMPERAMENT-Bach-Lehman-Jobin.htm shows another possible interpretation of the Bach squiggle (demonstrating again that Lehman should not be purporting to _be_ _the_ Bach solution) and relevantly this solution veers in the direction of Kirnberger III and accords to Rameau . . .

Diagrams on Wikipaedia show nicely the progression of the derivations and similarities of the Werkmeister temperaments:









However, the bottom line relevant here is "what was in the spirit of a broad fashion of geographical common use" and that might be indicated by your analysis of thirds in Chopin. . . . Beethoven and Schubert might be interesting too. . .

Best wishes

David P


Edited by Unequally tempered (02/04/11 12:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Added temperament images
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1612620 - 02/04/11 11:52 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered

I've finally found the article I had been looking for before:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Bach_Seal.pdf

The comparison of thirds is interesting so far as the results Francis derives there from Bach's seal differ with Kellner only in A flat . . . which is interesting bearing in mind Kellner's reputed similarity to Werkmeister which is something I have not yet properly examined . . .

So perhaps the line between being a nut and genius is thin?

Well, I think Kellner and Francis are both crackpots.

WM3 has a group of 3 consecutive 1/4' 5ths, then 2 pure ones, and one more 1/4' one at BF#. Kellner has 5 1/5' 5ths in the same place + the extra one at FC. The extra 1/5' removes Ab from the list of Pyth M3's. The price for this is payed by all the other thirds except Db and F# which remain Pyth.
Quote:
However, the bottom line in this is what was in a broad fashion of common use and that might be indicated by your analysis of thirds in Chopin. Beethoven and Schubert might be interesting too. . .

I looked at Chopin Op15 (raindrop) as you suggested. It's in Db major and 90% of the M3,10,17 occur on Db and Ab. Pretty harsh in WM3.

Kees

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#1612636 - 02/04/11 12:28 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Kees

You might have seen I have added to the post to which you've replied already.

I'm not surprised that you're finding unmodified WIII harsh - I came to hate it in my teens.

However, it provides a start:
http://www.millersrus.com/dissertation/

Modified WIII need not be harsh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA

Best wishes

David P

(Postcript - Miller's dissertation makes interesting reading - he claims that Barnes's starting point was Bach's aural tuning instructions that he gave his son . . . so Barnes should not be discounted . . . ! Miller's study recommends Werkmeister or Rameau as the best starting points. My view is that certainly WIII needs amelioration of some kind, as has been applied on the instruments I've tuned for these concert recordings . . .)


Edited by Unequally tempered (02/04/11 01:18 PM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1612829 - 02/04/11 07:01 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Here are the relative occurrences of M3,10,17 in the 24 preludes in all keys of Chopin. I don't see any conclusions to be drawn about a temperament, do you?




On another note "modifed WM3" is not WM3, but another temperament (e.g. Neidhardt 2).

Kees

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