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#1590814 - 01/04/11 11:02 PM Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I use the phrase "unequal temperament" because I can't find on the site what temperament was used. Reminds me of Bill Bremmer's EBVT a bit, but it may be a personal well temperament. Schumann's "Des Abends." played by Adolfo Barabino on a less than perfect old Bechstein, I think, at Emerson College, in Park Row, England:

http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/search/9/Q9vbJxPhN3Y

Several hundred videos on this site, but only ten or so using this temperament. Thought some people here might enjoy it.



Edited by Jake Jackson (01/05/11 12:32 AM)

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#1591526 - 01/05/11 11:29 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
After I asked in the comments section of YouTube, the poster replied:

"It's a well temperament slightly less strong than Kirnberger III and near to Werkmeister."

Not sure what less strong and strong mean, though. In any case, the tuning was apparently done by David Pinnegar, who had previously tuned a piano at Hammerwood Park to the same temperament. There are more of these videos using this tuning than I first thought on this Youtube\subscription site. Around ten using this piano, and many others using the Hammerwood Park piano, which is a newer Bechstein.

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#1594099 - 01/09/11 04:30 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
"Stronger" or "Milder" simply implies how unequal the temperament is. Generally, the earlier the temperament, the more unequal it is but that is not always the case. Some of the early 18th Century temperament theorists who were known for temperaments that most people would consider "too strong" today also at least theorized about milder temperaments, approaching Equal Temperament ET) but never quite getting to what we know of as ET today.

The EBVT III that I am well known for was found, for example to be virtually identical to Johann Georg Neidhardt's Circulating Temperament #2 of 1721. Neidhardt, however did not write explicit instructions for it, only theoretical values.

Non-equal temperaments can range anywhere from an extreme that nearly no one would want to use for anything to just having a mild effect upon the music as does the EBVT III.

I was quite pleasantly surprised to see the number of people and examples on You Tube of exploration of non-equal temperaments. When I began using them as full time practice 22 years ago and dared to write about it on the Pianotech forum, other technicians found the very notion to be unthinkable. The practice is now far more often found to be acceptable and of interest to many people whose curiosity leads them to explore different possibilities.

This statement, "It's a well temperament slightly less strong than Kirnberger III and near to Werkmeister." leads me to believe that the technician indeed created his own composite design. That is not at all unusual for today nor was it unusual in past centuries for each person who tuned a keyboard instrument to effectively put their own signature upon it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1595222 - 01/11/11 09:29 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks. I was confused by thinking of "strong" as meaning a stronger departure from a just tuning or a meantone of the era, as opposed to a stronger departure from our more recent ET.

It's an interesting tuning, in any case, particularly for the Schumann and Liszt pieces. I think I prefer the sound on the older Bechstein.


Edited by Jake Jackson (01/11/11 11:28 AM)

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#1595583 - 01/11/11 07:34 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

Thanks for inviting me into this forum . . . and it's GREAT to see the enthusiasm for unequal temperaments on the piano across the pond. Here in England, it's a matter of curiosity, madness indeed, and some people won't come to our concerts because they say the piano is out of tune!

I use a very standard unequal temperament which I believe is the strongest I can get away with in presenting classical music in all keys - and even Prokofiev doesn't mind it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5LgMHBW30

Both the Hammerwood piano (1885) and the Emerson instrument (1895 or so) are tuned to the same temperament but the Emerson instrument being smaller has troubles with inharmonicities that I have never experienced on the longer instrument at Hammerwood. This has caused some of the recordings at Emerson to sound jangly, more like a fortepiano, and on
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=emerson+unequal+temperament
you'll see that I have labelled items where I am not satisfied by my tuning as "Experimenting" "Audition" "Testing" etc.

I first twigged that perhaps Chopin was writing for an unequal temperament when hearing Rose Cholmondeley playing the 2nd Sonata around the year 2000 and thereafter took the plunge and tuned the instrument unequally. I'm wondering if the 24 preludes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdsFLIo9l88
support the idea that UT is right for Chopin, especially the raindrop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA

I'm not sure about Schumann in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSMX1s9HNc

You might find
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chopin+ballade+unequal+temperament
and
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chopin+scherzo+unequal+temperament interesting.

I have only been tuning the Emerson instrument for 6 months or so and it took a few concerts to understand how it behaved harmonically, so from preference I prefer the Hammerwood recordings.

I've finally tuned my trusty ancient machine
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31145314&l=298097e6c1&id=1265258549
to the temperament . . . and with this expect to have no further inharmonicity troubles. It picks out the middle octave partials of all lower strings and when I used to use this beast in equal temperament never had any troubles . . . I love the rotating phase display . . . which works like the TLA tuner. One day perhaps I might find a TLA tuner second hand - it would be so much easier to try different temperaments!

Schubert is really beautiful in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTGka9jFUCU
and there's beginning to be a significant corpus of repertoire to hear from Hammerwood in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hammerwood+unequal+temperament
and
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hammerwood+piano

The recent concert by Paul Austin Kelly and Martin Isepp was interesting. They felt it worked very well with Haydn, Britten, and possibly Schumann but not Richard Strauss . . . (what a surprise!)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paul+austin+kelly+martin+isepp

In any event, whilst the musicians were not so happy with Strauss, the temperament did not cause discomfort to the audience. . .

I hope that as a result of the work that I'm doing in England with such concerts, people will enjoy performances of classical music more.

As Adolfo Barabino says, Equal Temperament is really communism among the keys . . . !

Perhaps even more interesting is a concert on an Emerich Betsy viennese instrument of 1856 with leather hammers:
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/

The change from major to minor in
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-cro...l-crossland.mp3
is possibly much more emotionally effective than in Equal Temperament.

There's an interesting corpus of work here all with the Hammerwood piano in unequal temperament, recordings of items one would hardly expect to be able to hear in UT:
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/joanna-powell-cello/
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/julia-o-riodan-jennifer-carter/
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jong-gyung-park-unequal-temperament/

I hope that these recordings might stimulate debate . . .

Best wishes

David P


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/11/11 07:53 PM)
Edit Reason: Added information on recordings of Schubert and Haydn
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1595605 - 01/11/11 08:13 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks for joining. And for the links. Several hours of listening, there.

I like the sound of the Emerson piano. Lots of wood in the sound. Not a modern piano sound, but that's not what Schumann wrote for.

You say that the temperament is a very standard UT. Is it a well-known temperament, or did you start with Kirnberger III or Werkmeister and then work from there, or did you just find yourself creating something that you later discovered was close to these?

A shame to hear that people sometimes object to the tuning. I'm not sure one can say that unequal temperaments are extremely popular in the US, but as people come to understand that ET wasn't the temperament used for composing most of the music in the "canon," and as people hear how the music sounds when played in a pre-ET temperament, there is more and more interest, more sharing of information, and often dispute, all of which you may find if you do a search in this forum for "temperament." Good to find you here. Looking forward to learning about your insights. I must add that I am one of the least knowledgeable and skilled people posting here, and ask that you bear with me at times.


Edited by Jake Jackson (01/12/11 12:38 AM)

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#1595710 - 01/12/11 12:17 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered

I use a very standard unequal temperament which I believe is the strongest I can get away with in presenting classical music in all keys - and even Prokofiev doesn't mind it:
David P

There is of course no such thing as a "standard equal temperament", let alone a "very". So what is it?

Kees

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#1596390 - 01/12/11 10:41 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

I was talking to the head of Broadwoods at Finchcocks the other day generally about temperaments. They have been through many temperaments over the years and seem to think that England was veering early towards equal, although this is not my personal opinion. He quoted Handel in particular as requiring a wide variety of keys, but in truth I think that there is a lot of confusion between the contrast between Meantone and a well-temperament unequal, and the difference between well-temperament and equal. I think that many people meant by "equal" a temperament which was more equal than Meantone . . . so in fact a good well-temperament in which all keys are playable but still have an effect.

This is where building up a corpus of recordings is the only way to research - to ascertain what was written for unequal and what was not, and if not what is damaged by playing in unequal.

It's a surprise to find that Debussy, clearly written for equal, works really beautifully in unequal and this is the case for many composers. The only piece to which I have personal objections is the Brahms Waltz in A flat . . .

At Finchcocks, one recitalist doing a recording specified the Bradley Lehman so-called "Bach" temperament. In my personal opinion, this so-called authentic temperament has done a great deal of damage to the cause of unequal temperament. The Broadwood man said that at points it turned his stomach . . . .

It's not just that, it's plainly wrong - shall we say . . . misguided. Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals, which makes no musical sense.

Dr John Charles Francis has examined the squiggle the right way up and I have a lot of respect for his work:
http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/francis1/francis1.html
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/fr/Well-Tempered_Clavier
. . . but finally I have found the original work:
http://sites.google.com/site/bachtuning/bach'sharpsichordtuning
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Das_Wohltemperirte_Clavier.htm
http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/francis5/francis5.pdf

In one of his writings I saw that his derived scheme accords broadly with the tuning I use - but that's irrelevant.

One can spend a lot of time splitting hairs in unequal temperaments . . . the tunings are broadly similar but vary in degree rather than greatly in effect . . . the odd man out in this being the Lehman.

It doesn't really matter what tuning one uses as long as it fullfils a few criteria of good behaviour:
(1) The most used home, white note, keys are the purest and most harmonious
(2) The least used, remotest, black note keys are the most coloured (criteria not obeyed by upside down interpretation of Bach's squiggle)
(3) The keys present some sort of ordered kind progression from purest to coloured

Of course regional variations of preferences existed and so no one single tuning is a "right" tuning but one has to find something that behaves well and presents music nicely.

Of historical precedent of key behaviour, there are some documentary sources of which Schubart's of 1806
http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
is relevant to well temperaments and it's said that Mahler was familiar with these key characteristics.

So an unequal temperament should veer broadly in the characteristics suggested.

When one hears the Chopin 24 preludes, do the keys correspond to Schubart's descriptions?

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1596606 - 01/13/11 09:10 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Well, Schubart's descriptions go into mystical realms that may be out of my limited reach.

I had to look up Finchcocks to learn what it is. I wish their web site had more pictures of their collection.

I notice that Broadwood, on their web site, includes Finchcocks as part of their mailing address. Is the museum connected in some way with Broadwood? Does it house their records?

(Most of my limited knowledge of Broadwood comes from reading Ellis's addenda to his translation of Helmholtz. Given the discussion there of their research, and their history as a designer of instruments that maintained an army of tuners sent to all parts of the country, I can't help but guess that their archives might be enormously valuable for "primary sources" in studying the history of temperaments. A lifetime of study, there. Five lifetimes?)

You never told us more about the temperament you're using.


Edited by Jake Jackson (01/13/11 09:12 AM)

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#1596616 - 01/13/11 09:38 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

Schubart and mystical realms?

Not so sure - I think that many effects are audible . . .

Here are the recordings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdsFLIo9l88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A34K-fj5nHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpqrynlohR4

This is the list of keys and key suggestions from Schubart:
1. Agitato ­ C major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naivety, children's talk.
2. Lento ­ A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.
3. Vivace ­ G major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.
4. Largo ­ E minor
Naive, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major.
5. Molto allegro ­ D major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.
6. Lento assai ­ B minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.
7. Andantino ­ A major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.
8. Molto agitato ­ F-sharp minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language
9. Largo ­ E major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.
10. Molto allegro ­ C-sharp minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.
11. Vivace ­ B major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.
12. Presto ­ G-sharp minor
(A flat minor . . . ?) Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.
13. Lento ­ F-sharp major
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.
14. Allegro ­ E-flat minor
(D sharp minor . . . . ?) Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key
15. Sostenuto ­ D-flat major ("Raindrop Prelude")
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.
16. Presto con fuoco ­ B-flat minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.
17. Allegretto ­ A-flat major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.
18. Molto allegro ­ F minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.
19. Vivace ­ E-flat major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.
20. Largo ­ C minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.
21. Cantabile ­ B-flat major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.
22. Molto agitato ­ G minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.
23. Moderato ­ F major
Complaisance & Calm.
24. Allegro appassionato ­ D minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

I have deliberately avoided naming the temperament I use as it's so important for people to experiment.

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1596739 - 01/13/11 01:41 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals,

Indeed, esp. the E major third is a bit much. Still many people like it.

Kees

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#1596869 - 01/13/11 05:19 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals,

Indeed, esp. the E major third is a bit much. Still many people like it.


Hi!

Yes - they might like it but it has no musical or historic precedent in the corpus of historic temperaments, nor, in the logicality of moving from most used to least used keys, any musical sense.

Sometimes discovering a "new" "revolutionary" "unique" solution to a problem merely means that it is merely the odd-man-out.

It's for this reason that the spectrum from Vallotti to Kirnberger offers a range of safe tuning schemes which, from Schubart's descriptions of keys, would not be unknown to 18th and 19th century musicians. However, I have not yet really experimented with Kirnberger yet on the fortepiano and suspect that it really might be too strong in the wilder keys.

Best wishes

David P


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/13/11 06:07 PM)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

Top
#1597055 - 01/13/11 11:20 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals,

Indeed, esp. the E major third is a bit much. Still many people like it.


Hi!

Yes - they might like it but it has no musical or historic precedent in the corpus of historic temperaments, nor, in the logicality of moving from most used to least used keys, any musical sense.

Sometimes discovering a "new" "revolutionary" "unique" solution to a problem merely means that it is merely the odd-man-out.

It's for this reason that the spectrum from Vallotti to Kirnberger offers a range of safe tuning schemes which, from Schubart's descriptions of keys, would not be unknown to 18th and 19th century musicians. However, I have not yet really experimented with Kirnberger yet on the fortepiano and suspect that it really might be too strong in the wilder keys.

Best wishes

David P

The Lehman-Bach tuning favors flat keys over sharp keys, and I think it could be argued that that is a good thing (sharp key being associated with natural trumpets for example), or a bad thing as you seem to do.

The BL tuning seems to push the music towards flat keys, which I like quite a bit, purely personal. For Bach's music it seems appropriate. The BL can certainly not be dismissed easily.

Regarding key signature characteristics, of course there are as many opinions on this as there are musicians.

Generally I disagree with any strong opinion about which unequal temperament is "right" or "wrong". Along the line of your statement that you should "experiment yourself", so I think we agree.

I dislike Kirnberger 3 as it is too uniform (too many keys sound the same). It is however very easy to tune.

I look forward to the days when every piano tuner has a home grown temperament and the market will decide which is best. (Tongue in cheek of course.)

Kees

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#1597212 - 01/14/11 08:40 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: DoelKees


The BL tuning seems to push the music towards flat keys, which I like quite a bit, purely personal. For Bach's music it seems appropriate. The BL can certainly not be dismissed easily.

Regarding key signature characteristics, of course there are as many opinions on this as there are musicians.

Generally I disagree with any strong opinion about which unequal temperament is "right" or "wrong". Along the line of your statement that you should "experiment yourself", so I think we agree.

I dislike Kirnberger 3 as it is too uniform (too many keys sound the same). It is however very easy to tune.



Hi!

I understand what you are saying - but bearing in mind that

  • the BL temperament was derived by turning the cypher the wrong way up, and that
  • in contrast Dr Charles Francis has derived from the cypher a very logical understanding in terms of beats per second in a practical manner very available to 18th century musicians, and that
  • such a result accords with the general principles of strongest colour in the remotest keys,

whilst the BL temperament might be "nice", it should not be regarded as any more than an interesting if pleasant curiosity.

As a physicist, one finds that generally the simplest explanations tend towards more helpful or "correct" views of the universe. The fact that a solution has been derived from turning a cypher upside down, which does not correlate to a pattern of any other established results, and that a better solution has been derived from a simple explanation of the cypher the right way up should speak for itself in the spirit of Galilleo's view of the solar system required less explanation than the view of the heavenly bodies revolving around the earth.

The "test" should be in setting out a group of pieces in each key, which both Bach and Chopin did, and to see if they "work" broadly in the spirit of the results expected as recorded by contemporary accounts, of which the best to my knoweledge is Schubart.

It would be very interesting therefore if forum members and others might be able to listen to the Chopin preludes with the Schubart descriptions in mind which I have set out above and see whether a broad correlation emerges. . . .

Of course, there being many tuning schemes with minor variations of degree, but a general thrust of increasing key colour from plain white home keys to accidentillated black remote keys we cannot expect a precise fit of exact description, but perhaps a broad thrust of correlation can be perceived?

For the reasons outlined above, the BL tuning cannot be part of this research, but any of the commonplace tunings from Vallotti to the dreaded Kirnberger are valid and I note that Dr Willis http://www.millersrus.com/dissertation/ conducted his research in a modified Werkmeister. It appears that, whilst I dislike unmodified Werkmeister for its dreadful C# G# intonation, the temperament has provided a basis for more than one researcher to approach the 19th century repertoire in this spirit.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1597448 - 01/14/11 03:12 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered

  • the BL temperament was derived by turning the cypher the wrong way up, and that
  • in contrast Dr Charles Francis has derived from the cypher a very logical understanding in terms of beats per second in a practical manner very available to 18th century musicians, and that
  • such a result accords with the general principles of strongest colour in the remotest keys,


You of course don't really need to turn it upside down, just make the fifths go right to left. Sorry to disagree but the Francis writings smell like crackpottery to me, at the level of deriving Bach's tuning from the mordents of that C major prelude.

Regarding your third point (that I agree with), one could argue Bach was hardly a typical figure, so maybe he really wanted A and E major to sound bright.

I've read quite a bit about Lehmans interpretation, but have never seen the objection you brought out (that E is the worst key, rather than C#) discussed anywhere. If you are aware of such a discussion I'd be grateful for a pointer.

And thanks for all those interesting recordings!

Kees

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#1597674 - 01/14/11 09:52 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Unequally tempered Offline
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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Regarding your third point (that I agree with), one could argue Bach was hardly a typical figure, so maybe he really wanted A and E major to sound bright.

I've read quite a bit about Lehmans interpretation, but have never seen the objection you brought out (that E is the worst key, rather than C#) discussed anywhere. If you are aware of such a discussion I'd be grateful for a pointer.



Hi!

I think Bach wanting three and four sharps to sound worst would be _extremely_ unlikely.

I have trialled LB and rejected it in early course for the reason that it doesn't do what a temperament should do in terms of providing purity where required, excitement sometimes and downright discomfort in the right ways, nor give preference to the most used keys and least to the least used keys.

A graph of Dr Francis showing thirds does demonstrate the way in which LB peaks in the mid circle keys rather than the other end.

When you look at Bach's cypher and allow the eyes to traverse the loops, at a constant speed, one does get a sense of rhythm which is indicative of the concept of beats per second in each fifth. For this reason Dr Francis makes perfect common sense.

Often one will find something that gives hints but the mordents are hardly a central plank of Dr Francis' methodology or thesis.

Having said this, I have yet to tune Dr Francis' scheme - has anyone done so?

The relevant thing however is not necessarily how Bach tuned in particular but the sort of genre of tunings which were commonplace during the history of the development of the piano and its repertoire. . . . It's this that I have tried to explore. How does it sound to critical ears?

Best wishes

David Pinnegar
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1597690 - 01/14/11 10:22 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered


I think Bach wanting three and four sharps to sound worst would be _extremely_ unlikely.

I have trialled LB and rejected it in early course for the reason that it doesn't do what a temperament should do in terms of providing purity where required, excitement sometimes and downright discomfort in the right ways, nor give preference to the most used keys and least to the least used keys.

A graph of Dr Francis showing thirds does demonstrate the way in which LB peaks in the mid circle keys rather than the other end.


The thirds look like this:

Quote:

When you look at Bach's cypher and allow the eyes to traverse the loops, at a constant speed, one does get a sense of rhythm which is indicative of the concept of beats per second in each fifth. For this reason Dr Francis makes perfect common sense.

That's just speculation way beyond the facts. Traditionally the size of 5ths was specified never in beats, but in comma (Pythagorean or synthonic).
Quote:

Often one will find something that gives hints but the mordents are hardly a central plank of Dr Francis' methodology or thesis.

Well Francis seems to come up with a new crackpot tuning theory every 6 months.

I found some interesting articles regarding our objection to Bach-Lehman: the worst M3 is EG#. It was brought up a lot by Lindsey in particular but Lehman's answer is that it has historical precedence in 5 of Neidhardt's published tunings.

Maybe the drawing by Bach on the cover of WTC I just meant you have to temper some fifths, some more than others, according to your personal taste.

Cheers,
Kees

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#1597999 - 01/15/11 12:20 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I have kept mostly quiet about the Lehman temperament even though there has been much interest and fanfare about it. More than anything else, I have always found my own solutions. Also, it failed to get the endorsement of Professor Owen Jorgensen ROT, the leading researcher into the use of historical and Cycle of Fifths based temperaments. For this reason, I never looked into it. I seem to have found other ideas which at least work for me in my practice and which have caught the attention of many people in many places. The EBVT III will be presented at the next PTG convention.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1598011 - 01/15/11 12:41 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[quote=Unequally tempered]


Maybe the drawing by Bach on the cover of WTC I just meant you have to temper some fifths, some more than others, according to your personal taste.

Cheers,
Kees


Some fifths tempered more than others is the distinction between a "regular" and "irregular" WT. The word, "irregular" has an unappealing sound to it, just as "unequal" does. Ask anybody, "Would you like your tuning to be nice, equal and regular or would you prefer it to be unequal and irregular?" and take a wild guess as to what the response would be. cool

I've explored and experimented with non-equal temperaments on modern pianos since 1985 and have made them my usual practice since 1989. Strange as it may seem, the irregular WT's (of which the EBVT III and Neidhardt's Circulating Temperament #2 are) provide far more appealing gradations of color than the regular temperaments do.

Thomas Young's #1 is often suggested as a model WT and looks great on paper with its perfect symmetry. It is, however too harsh in the remote keys for general use on the modern piano. There is also not a good and easy way to tune it which can be remembered and performed on the spot. Instead, if I want to tune an 18th Century style WT, I simply use the same sequence that I use for the EBVT and skip the step of tempering the B-flat/F fifth and leave it pure. Instead of the initial 4 rapidly beating intervals set at 6 beats per second, they are set at 4 beats per second.

It has six pure fifths and six tempered fifths as the Young does but the tempered fifths are irregular while Young's and Vallotti's are all tempered alike.

The result is quite similar color to Young's but it ends up being a Young/Werkmeister composite and is irregular rather than regular. It is so easy to tune that I can whip it on a piano, F3-F4 in about 2 minutes with perfect consistency from one attempt to the next every time. I never forget the sequence, so I never have to look it up. I can do it literally at the drop of a hat.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1598278 - 01/15/11 08:52 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
David,

If I follow your reasoning and read the Bach scribble left to right, assuming the double loops are twice as tempered as the single, and placing them between the "white keys fifths" FC CG GD DA AE (necessary to get the best M3's there) I indeed get a much nicer temperament, somewhat like a milder version of Werckmeister III. Below the interval diagram. Now C# major is the worst key, not E major, as it should.

I tuned my piano in it, it's somewhat similar to Bach-Lehman without the offensive M3's on A and E. (And just as easy to tune aurally.)

Great suggestion, I'm convinced, thanks a lot for bringing it up!

Best,
Kees

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#1598279 - 01/15/11 08:53 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

Dr Francis and beats - well whilst one might express a tuning in commas, but writing a wiggly mnemonic on top of a piece of music looks as though it's written to and for a musician, who'd hear beatings per second rather than commas.

So I'd rather go with Dr F than LB and I'm familiar with Prof Jorgensen's researches and work . . . Perhaps Francis should not be so easily dismissed. However I have not tuned the Francis temperaments - has anyone done so?

Bill - thanks for joining in - I have read some of your writings before. It would be great perhaps if you might be able to write out the EBVT tuning sequence or link to further details. I've been tempted towards recommendations for Young and am intrigued you say it's too harsh. How harsh compared perhaps to Kirnberger?

I like Kirnberger on the harpsichord but it's one step harsher than the tuning I usually use and on the piano in my mind it's got a big label "approach with care"! However, it has a flavour approaching Meantone without being so critical.

One problem is that audiences don't notice the milder temperaments and say they can't hear the difference . . . so it's that delicate balance to be achieved in being harsh enough to hear but soft enough to tolerate . . .

My explorations into temperaments started with Padgham's pink book in the early 80s - it's a brilliant book but so useful that I keep losing it . . .

Best wishes

David Pinnegar
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1598305 - 01/15/11 09:57 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered

Dr Francis and beats - well whilst one might express a tuning in commas, but writing a wiggly mnemonic on top of a piece of music looks as though it's written to and for a musician, who'd hear beatings per second rather than commas

I've tuned harpsichords for 30 years without ever counting beats. You usually start with a "good" third, then fit in the fifths to be "similar". E.g., for Kirnberger III, probably the easiest WT to set, you tune a pure CE, fit in the 4 fifths it spans, and you're done, the rest are pure 5ths.

I think beat counting is a modern piano tuning thing. A big improvement in accuracy of course, but still modern.
Quote:
It would be great perhaps if you might be able to write out the EBVT tuning sequence or link to further details.

If you search for EBVT you'll find incredibly detailed instructions posted here by Bill on how to tune like that.
Quote:

I've been tempted towards recommendations for Young and am intrigued you say it's too harsh. How harsh compared perhaps to Kirnberger?

Young's has 2 Pythogorean thirds, KB3 has 5 (3 of them a little narrower, but still quite harsh).
Quote:

I like Kirnberger on the harpsichord but it's one step harsher than the tuning I usually use and on the piano in my mind it's got a big label "approach with care"! However, it has a flavour approaching Meantone without being so critical.

What I don't like about KB3 and Young is its symmetry, mentioned also by Bill. It looks good on paper but symmetry means more keys will sounds alike. If you take the WT route you might as well enjoy the differences in key colour to the max and make them all different. I think this is why Werckmeister III sounds better than KB3 even though both have 4 fifths narrow by 1/4 comma, but KB3 is "regular" in that the 4 tempered fifths are consecutive, whereas in WM3 3 are consecutive but the 4th is placed asymmetrical in a strategical position.
Quote:

One problem is that audiences don't notice the milder temperaments and say they can't hear the difference . . . so it's that delicate balance to be achieved in being harsh enough to hear but soft enough to tolerate . . .

It depends on the audience of course. What I like about Bill's EBVT is that I really can't tell the temperament is unequal, but the piano just sounds better.

Kees

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#1598505 - 01/16/11 09:25 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
This is veering off in another direction, David, but could you tell us a bit more about the pianos? I at first thought that the Emerson piano was older, but then I saw the video in which Adolfo Barabino mentions that the Hammerwood Park Bechstein is from the 1880's, so now I'm not so sure. (Both sound great. The aspects of the Emerson piano that some people might want to improve, to me, give it character.) Do you find that the scaling, or other aspects of the design, on older pianos makes them sound better in a well temperament than a new piano sounds in a well temp?

Part of the motivation of the videos seems to be spreading the word and sound of well temperaments. Might I make a suggestion--that you film yourself or another player with two pianos, side by side, with one tuned to ET and another to a well temp? This arrangement would open up all kinds of possibilities: you could demonstrate the difference between specific intervals, the difference in the key colors, and even play a brief piece in the well and in ET for a fuller demonstration. I think my favorite of these videos, after having seen\heard more of them, is of Adolfo Barabino playing the Chopin nocturne at http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/search/10/ZH2IXOfnBqw . I can't imagine anyone seeing this video and not wanting to play the piano in this temperament. (And have a cd of these recordings...) On the other hand, seeing this performance along with a discussion in which specific intervals, and passages, were compared in ET and the well, would be still more revealing. One can of course find another recording of the piece in ET and immediately hear the difference, but that's not the same thing as having someone demonstrate the specific changes in sound on similar, side by side pianos.

I might be accused of selfishly asking you to create such a video under the guise of suggesting its educational value. Such an accusation would have a hint of accuracy. However, the video, or videos, would still have an enormous value for musicologists, for people wanting to demonstrate the difference in the tunings in a classroom, for tuners, and for players. Not a small task to request, or course. I only suggest it because you seem well-versed in and well-equipped for filming such performances. Could you do this tomorrow?



Edited by Jake Jackson (01/16/11 09:35 AM)

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#1598721 - 01/16/11 03:32 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
David,

Thank you for your comments. My primary consideration has always been that I tune and service pianos as my daily living. If people did not like what I do for them, I would not be in business. So, for me, any historical authenticity has never been a priority, except perhaps the general rule of what a well temperament is supposed to be.

Do my clients like the sound of what I do or do they not? If they don't, then whet can I do that would change that? If they do, then give them more of the same. The process to the EBVT III which I now use almost exclusively has been a long one but I have been using it nearly always for about four years. To me, it is the "one size fits all" that only ET is thought to be by most people.

You can easily access a wide variety of music performed on a nice piano from my website. It isn't all of the material I have and more will be added as I am able but there are many examples of many kinds of music there and it costs nothing to download or just listen to any example.

http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/

The basic aural tuning instructions can also be found on that page along with graphs by Jason Kanter of the basic properties.

Thanks for your interest!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1598769 - 01/16/11 04:55 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

A lot to answer! But to get Adolfo back from Italy and film him on a piano tomorrow and then tune it to equal temperament and film him again, tomorrow, and then retune it as it should be . . . is a tall order . . . and essentially I tune the instrument so that it can withstand Liszt or Prokofiev http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDwrF7xq5Q without going out of tune during a performance . . . ! My leg is stretching to painful lengths . . .

However, I have put together two recordings by Adolfo that we did a fortnight apart which I hope may be illustrative and interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgA1-I5MfNY Sometimes its easy to think that one cannot hear the difference but the effect on the live audience was significant.

Pianos - I'm not entirely sure that the age of the piano makes a lot of difference - it's the length that inclines to the purity of the harmonics. I have never had great diffilculties with the long Bechstein at Hammerwood which is 1885 or so - the Bechstein showroom in London opening in 1886 may be something to do with the quality of the instrument, whilst the Emerson College (the Rudolph Steiner facility in Forest Row) instrument is a decade later. A 1905 Broadwood sounds much more like a modern instrument but has shorter strings too, and being unused to short strings, initially had great difficulty tuning the bass having experimented with harmonics. Like many, I have often tuned 10ths in the bass but this is possibly more valid in equal temperament. On the Hammerwood Bechstein I have been listening to Nasard and Larigot harmonics - 12ths and 19ths for pitches relating to perfect 5th intervals and Tierce harmonics - 17ths - for notes with perfect or near perfect 3rds. This has been quite successful at Hammerwood and I suspect that one can then get the instrument's harmonics to support the character of the tuning -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz0B0SwKpww
but this has failed miserably with short string instruments but interestingly giving more of the spirit of the fortepiano or square piano -
sounding charming at times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPLIanjtWlk
( - a concert where Adolfo deliberately trialled all the "worst" key)
but where the instrument jangles when all the strings are resonating -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGJAzBK5x84 (08:06 onwards in particular) Listen however to the beautiful accordance of the last note.
The Emerson piano is also very difficult to tune in the top two octaves on account of "Bechsteining" as a friend puts it, the strings emitting two notes very very close together instead of one.

Adolfo says that he does not like the Hammerwood instrument as he says it sounds nasal when overdriven - but this is probably more a matter of my tuning of odd harmonic accordances than the piano.

On the next tunings, I'll be using standard middle octave harmonics.

The inharmonicities of short strings certainly cause problems and probably cause rules to be rewritten in unequal tunings. Today I was tuning an old upright for a friend and the short bass strings caused the tuning of the mid octave harmonics of the bass strings to be at least a comma sharp over the tuning with the octave string. Were I to have flattened the bass string tuning (was it Rubenstein who said he liked bass strings tuned flat?) to accord with the immediate octave above, the middle keyboard harmonics would have jangled inutterably horribly.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


(As a footnote, whilst trying to track down some Schubert in unequal temperament that I had recorded, I turned up http://temper.braybaroque.ie/ which I know from a friend's enthusiasm to be excellent, and was highly amused and not surprised to find that a particular tuning had been blinkeredly pushed by its originator yet again and resulting in http://temper.braybaroque.ie/lehman.htm. http://em.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/4/613.abstract is interesting - and this is why after a brief flirtation and trial I paid no further attention to it . . . and why wiser men didn't bother at all. A good idea is generally readily accepted and does not need such pushing. Something about "protesteth too much" comes to mind)
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1598981 - 01/16/11 10:58 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

You can easily access a wide variety of music performed on a nice piano from my website. It isn't all of the material I have and more will be added as I am able but there are many examples of many kinds of music there and it costs nothing to download or just listen to any example.

http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/

The basic aural tuning instructions can also be found on that page along with graphs by Jason Kanter of the basic properties.

Thanks for your interest!


Dear Bill

Very very interesting. I have just listened to the D flat Rachmaninoff and the final chords are elegantly interesting and utterly delightful.

I'm sure that your clients probably don't notice they're not getting Equal Temperament - it's a very refined and sophisticated tuning you're doing - possibly similar to the 1880s "Broadwood's best"?

However for my purposes of introducing key colour to audiences I have needed something a little spicier (to say the least) so that people really notice . . . but of course not quite . . . I suspect that were I to have used EVBT, no-one would have noticed the difference.

It's a great pleasure to hear your examples - very beautiful piano and a very smooth effect.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1599016 - 01/16/11 11:52 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
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Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
It's wonderful to have these two temperaments (EBVT and what you're doing) discussed, not as competitive temperaments, but simply as different ways to approach what can be done.

(You can't drag Adolfo Barabino back to England on a moment's notice? A shame. Did you by any chance record what we hear in the videos to audio with a higher sampling rate?)


Edited by Jake Jackson (01/16/11 11:54 PM)

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#1599166 - 01/17/11 08:01 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Unequally tempered Offline
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Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Dear Jake

Have you had time yet to hear the two halves of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgA1-I5MfNY ?

At the root of many of these recordings, however, is a very great and sensitive performer who tonally works with what he hears coming out of the instrument. I had the pleasure and privilege to sit in on a tutorial Adolfo gave to Miena Senada for the 4th Ballade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKOSVih7tls in performance
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJT5Q6HooyA
the next day as I had been unsure of my tuning at Emerson . . .

What was interesting was the effect of the temperament in coming to understand the music as I pointed out on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJT5Q6HooyA
Quote:
The experience of playing in unequal temperament makes the chords at 10:09 suddenly more potent and important, the focus of the whole composition, and otherwise capable of being glossed over in the arpegiatted chromatic fury that surrounds them


During the tutorial, the progression of these chords through their temperament colours suddenly became obviously significant. When a performer has practiced in such a way noting changes given by the temperament resulting in emphasis either by dynamics or speed, those characteristics of emphasis can be carried through to work on playing in equal temperament so that the experience in unequal temperament can have a benefit in perception in performance in an equal temperament venue.

When one looks at a temperament and sees departures of between 6 and 12 cents from equal, one knows that the effect will be interesting.

I hope that Adolfo will do some commercially released recordings with unequal temperament before long. His existing recordings however, http://www.adolfo-barabino.com/recordings_en.htm, are well worth tracking down.

His masterclasses are a truly exceptional opportunity for musicians - he does not teach how to play the piano - he teaches musicality. However, it's a matter of great regret and frustration that Steinway will neither tune their hire instruments to an unequal temperament nor allow another tuner to do so - and it's for such reason that Adolfo often brings students to my piano and to Emerson College in Forest Row nearby.

Whether the musical world is missing something greatly by concert Steinways always having to be in equal temperament is a matter perhaps for readers of this thread to judge.

Or just as I criticise the LB temperament for its uniqueness among temperaments as being the oddball, can I be criticised likewise for promoting the concept that piano music certainly up to the mid 19th century can be played on the more adventurous temperaments . . . and that such temperaments can do surprisingly little harm to subsequent musicality?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sboyVManGAk

Incidentally I tried to explain the effects of temperament upon composition in terms of rooted and unrooted chords
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvHq8HvTKg

For some time I have wanted to work with an organist with comprehensive knowledge of the repertoire in various temperaments less shocking than Meantone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54mE1hxAvyY
to see how far one can go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teVlrYJGKAE
to see what commonly loved organ repertoire might be precluded by specifiying an organ in an unequal temperament. Certainly the EBVT temperaments are excellent candidates . . . but can one go further into the temperament spectrum without precluding too much? If anyone knows an adventurous organist, it would be great to do something.

Quote:
Did you by any chance record what we hear in the videos to audio with a higher sampling rate?


The recordings are all in CD quality but of course video compression mangles a lot of sound whatever the original quality.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


Edited by Unequally tempered (01/17/11 08:20 AM)
Edit Reason: additional question answered about recording quality
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

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#1599205 - 01/17/11 09:36 AM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Unequally tempered]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered
[quote=Bill Bremmer RPT]

However for my purposes of introducing key colour to audiences I have needed something a little spicier (to say the least) so that people really notice . . . but of course not quite . . . I suspect that were I to have used EVBT, no-one would have noticed the difference.

It's a great pleasure to hear your examples - very beautiful piano and a very smooth effect.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


Thank you, David,

I could not argue in the least with your statement. In fact, my experience with those who would scrutinize what I do, poised for attack, has been that as soon as the temperament was noticed, that is the point where it became unacceptable. Then, when people said they couldn't really tell what the difference was, they asked, "Why bother? Why not just tune ET?" Well, Kees answered that quite well.

There certainly is a difference, as subtle as it may be. Some have even said that it still goes too far but I am quite satisfied at this point that it goes about as far as it can go without going too far for all but some of the most squeamish of performing artists. For them, I have yet an even milder WT that I designed myself but have not yet published anywhere.

Consider this post and follow up that occurred some time back about Ravel's "La Vallé des Cloches". Ron K., who is interested in Non-ET's seemed to be bothered by what he considered to be an excessive amount of beats. I really think this had to do more with the amount of stretch I used, especially in the Bass than it did with temperament.

To me, it is the most stunning and moving example of the piece I could find anywhere. It is stunning because of the beats and the other examples are mediocre to downright bland and lifeless because of lack of clarity and beats.

Please tell me your impressions. I plan to get this example on my website soon but you can experience it here and now:

(See the 9th post on this page and follow the links therein.)

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1387799/109.html
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1599296 - 01/17/11 12:32 PM Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
(David: I hope you will not think that I'm wading into waters that are not mine to wade in, but I think you've already recorded Adolfo Barabino's new album in unequal temperaments. To me, the performances you have are absolutely ready to be released as they are.

They are live performances, so there may be a cough here and there, but that's to be expected in a live performance. They don't seem to have any compression or normalizing, and that's to their advantage. They sound as the performance would sound in a small hall if the listener was sitting close by, so there's no need for compression, etc. I can understand that he or his label might want to later do other recordings in a more controlled environment, but these stand on their own.)

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