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#1591106 - 01/05/11 12:23 PM Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/10
Posts: 79
I think that we should compare the V-Piano to the Yamaha Avantgrand N2. Indeed, in fact the N2 does not cost much more than a V-Piano PLUS 4 amplified speakers PLUS the stand ... and it has a real AC Grand piano action keyboard.


And...The new YAmaha Avantgrand N1, to be anounced a NAMM, may give V-Piano some very tough competition. it is supposed to be priced like the V-Piano, but (1) with a real AC action, and (2) with built-in speakers, so in fact way cheaper than a V-Pianio since no need for extra costs on speakers and stand.

What do you think ? Which one do you prefer ?

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#1591107 - 01/05/11 12:27 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
I dont think that sampled DP's may they be the best of them,like N2, can compete with the modelling technology V piano has to offer. But take this with a grain of salt as it is based on youtube listening, although very carrefull listening. The V piano, i dont know....just sounds like a piano. The samples at their best in N2,N3, still fall short to my ear. As for the true GP action of N2, of course for those that aim at classical training is the best. I think though that, subjectivly speaking, there could be a bunch of folks who actually prefer other type of touch, like that in the V piano.

I would buy the V piano from what i've heard so far,....honestly.


Edited by Ovidiu M (01/05/11 12:28 PM)

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#1591153 - 01/05/11 01:23 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
I don't think one can completely compare the V-Piano to anything else out there since it's the only thing like it. No other digital piano produces sounds that are purely modeled. This review of the V-Piano in pianobuyer was pretty interesting:
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall10/150.html
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Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


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#1591185 - 01/05/11 01:55 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Ovidiu M]
jeff749z Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 31
Loc: United States
I seriously considered the V Piano prior to purchasing my N2. The V Piano is a great instrument that would please some very discerning ears. The reason the N2 is a better instrument is because of the aural experience of playing it. With the transducers beneath the keybed (the same keys that are in Yamahas real grands), and the 4 channel speaker system - it blows away in V piano for the purest. The V piano does however allow for some very unique tweaking of the piano playing experience (all that modeling business). Having to add studio monitors still doesn't bring the V piano to N2's level though. So to some up: real wood keys and action, 4 channel sampling, and the aural experience make the N2 better for the purest. You'd have a hard time selling a V Piano to a composer or school, not so with the N2.
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Avant Grand N2
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#1591188 - 01/05/11 01:57 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I played the V Piano today in a store and while I didn't play it for very long I did notice a quality about the sound that seemed slightly artificial.

I think it's a great idea for a software piano though.
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#1591515 - 01/05/11 11:12 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2691
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I don't see this comparison getting too far. Keep in mind what they are...the V-piano is a superfunctional keyboard devoted to uniquely developed "acoustic" piano recording/performing. I use parentheses because they are modeled not sampled. It's all about the sound engine and the creation of usable "acoustic" sounds.

The Avantgrand is Yamaha's most stylish, best sounding, acoustic piano simulation. Instead of redeveloping their DP action, they skipped to the end with the real thing. The sound is the best from their library and run through excellent speakers and attractively packaged. It's meant to look good at home or even on stage.

The V-piano is kinda cool looking, but no one would mistake it for having a stylish upright piano cabinet, and the exclusion of speakers is clearly intentional. If Roland made an even better action, it would have that.

To me, its like comparing a Jeep Wrangler to Nissan Maxima Coupe. 2 entirely different buyers.

If you're looking for a Roland comparison to the N2, you could look at the LX-10F. Now it is a good DP action (PHA III) but never quite a full acoustic action, but that is certainly reflected in the price difference. The other comparisons of built-in speakers (also a strength of Roland) and stylish cabinet (totally subjective) are still there just in a much lower price point. Roland's action has escapement feel while Yamaha's has cabinet vibration to help with visceral appeal. There's a lot to compare.

If someone really likes the idea of the N2 but doesn't have the budget, the LX-10F is a good place to look. The rumored N1 will be interesting to see where it falls in, but what if it is "a portable piano action" with outputs...kinda like the Bosendorfer CEUSmaster, but no one is talking (until next week? smile ). Very few products are without a comparative competitor. Other Clavinovas compare to Roland's HP models for that customer. Their pro-slabs compete; their workstations compete. I guess that's how I'd see it.

I just noticed this thread is started or included on multiple piano forums today. That's very thorough of you, B.Michels. Stir it up....
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#1591834 - 01/06/11 11:25 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4847
They're aimed at different markets - the N2/3 is squarely aimed at classical pianists (as per their booklets and blurb, and hence their appearance), while the V-Piano is a stage & studio piano substitute which Roland thinks will appeal to rock & pop musicians for their gigs, and to studio owners who can customize its sound to suit all and sundry who record there.

Only thing is, the V-Piano has fallen into the clutches of classical pianists like myself, who doesn't give a dam* about its appearance (and non-resemblance to any known acoustic), and cares only about the playing experience and the sound quality at all tonal & dynamic levels (once tweaked judiciously), which beats anything else around - if the reason for that is its modelling technology, well, I take my hat off to Roland for all its R&D over the decades. The N2/3 just doesn't give me that authentic playing experience and still sounds like any sampled DP, albeit a superior one. Heard via headphones, all its advantages over the V-Piano (exceptional speaker system heard via grand piano-like cabinet) disappear, and the sampled problems (looping, unnatural decay etc) become all too evident. Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.

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#1591927 - 01/06/11 01:05 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I would be interested to see actual sales numbers, but I have been told by more than one retailer that the V-piano is not selling well at all. The opinion given to me was that it doesn't quite fit any market. Studios are better off with software solutions and stage performers want more versatility. I'm not sure that is entirely true, but I don't think the coffin-on-a-walker aesthetics help.

As for the V-piano v. N3 debate, I would personally pick the N3, even though I am probably about to sell my CP1 in favor of a 700NX.

The action on the N3 is amazing and offers a true substitute practice instrument for aspiring or professional acoustic players. You can practice on just about any weighted digital these days, but the N3 offers the most seamless transition for those who prefer acoustic grand pianos.

The delivery of sound on the N3 is not just about 4 speakers and the shiny cabinet. The discrete recording, processing and playback through independent channels are far more important than the aesthetic appeal of the N3. Trying to compare the sound of an acoustic grand to what you hear through a 2 channel setup, especially headphones, would make even the most competent loudspeaker manufacturer chuckle. Yamaha has drawn on its knowledge in A/V to tackle the problem. I don’t think the end result is perfect, but as far as digital grand piano substitutes go, it is step in the right direction and far better than anything out there. You can get a nice sound using a good monitor/loudspeaker setup, but you aren’t going to get discrete channels no matter what you do unless it was recorded and processed that way.
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#1591936 - 01/06/11 01:16 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.


How do you forget you are using an electronic instrument when you are using a pair of headphones to use the instrument? The way acoustic pianos actually deliver sound when you play or listen to someone playing them seems vastly different than a headphone experience.
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#1591944 - 01/06/11 01:24 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bobbo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 118
The OP has presented us with a false dichotomy.

Completely different pianos, with different functions, for different market segments .

Should we care to compare a Ford Transit van to a Mercedes Coupe and debate which one is better?

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#1592007 - 01/06/11 02:57 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I wish Roland would make the V-piano in module form. It would be great if people could use the keyboard of their choice, but have the sound tweaking options of the V-piano. Imagine if you could use your Yamaha Avant Grand with a V-piano module, and even feed it back into the speakers of the Avant Grand. Now that would be something!

The problem is, there aways seems to be something lacking from every model. It surprises me sometimes that manufacturers don't consult more with customers. I am certain that I could draw up a list of specs that would please 90% of people here better than any single model in the DP market. How do they do realise this? You get a great action with a less than great sound experience. You get a great sound module with no piano casing, so no realism. Why can't somebody do it all and just make the ultimate DP?!

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#1592037 - 01/06/11 03:53 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
I wish Roland would offer the V-Piano technology in either a grand piano cabinet or a lighter smaller frame for stage piano players like myself. Several months back, I almost jumped the gun and bought the V-Piano, irregardless of the 80+ lbs it weighs. If the V-Piano was the weight of the RD700NX, I'd jump all over it, or charge more than the current V-Piano and put it in a grand piano cabinet.
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Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


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#1592053 - 01/06/11 04:11 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Well then maybe the comparison should be Pianoteq vs. V Piano. It's all software after all.
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#1592061 - 01/06/11 04:16 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: bennevis
... with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.
I have tried the V-Piano side by side with a bog-standard Yamaha upright. The (very undistinguished) real piano sounded and felt SO much better that it was almost laughable.
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#1592117 - 01/06/11 05:24 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8869
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: ando
It surprises me sometimes that manufacturers don't consult more with customers.


Request 1:

Originally Posted By: ando
I wish Roland would make the V-piano in module form.


Request 2:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I wish Roland would offer the V-Piano technology in either a grand piano cabinet...


Request 3:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
...or a lighter smaller frame


Okay, so the V-Piano should be produced as:

- an expander module
- a grand piano cabinet
- a light-weight portable

So, two different individuals, posting one after the other, requesting three completely different products.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1592170 - 01/06/11 06:37 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kawai James]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: ando
It surprises me sometimes that manufacturers don't consult more with customers.


Request 1:

Originally Posted By: ando
I wish Roland would make the V-piano in module form.


Request 2:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I wish Roland would offer the V-Piano technology in either a grand piano cabinet...


Request 3:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
...or a lighter smaller frame


Okay, so the V-Piano should be produced as:

- an expander module
- a grand piano cabinet
- a light-weight portable

So, two different individuals, posting one after the other, requesting three completely different products.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

Cheers,
James
x


James, these three options aren't as far-fetched as you make them sound.

The module would just involve putting the engine of the V-piano in a box and providing the right connections. Certainly not hard to develop or make.

The larger cabinet version would compete directly with the Avant Grand N3. The lighter version would be like the upcoming Avant Grand N1.

If you accept the word of critics. The strength of the Avant Grand is the action, but many feel let down by the quality of its sound. People seem far more impressed by the sound of the V-piano, but it doesn't come in true piano form. Seems like an opportunity to challenge Yamaha in that market.

Modules are popular with lots of people who play live, work in studios, and are happy with their controller keyboard. It may even be more popular than the V-piano itself because that takes up a lot of space in a studio. There are plenty of keyboards out there and many musicians prefer to play on their own keyboard. I would certainly enjoy having a V-piano module in my studio, but I don't have room for a V-piano.

The lighter version would be the doubtful one. I don't know what the market would be for this. The light version would probably end up with the stripped down version of V-piano that is already found in the HP models, like 305, 307.

Certainly the module and Grand version would find a place, given the people I've spoken to about this issue in the past. Of course, I don't know about the profitability of this industry.

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#1592197 - 01/06/11 07:22 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: PianoZac]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I don't think one can completely compare the V-Piano to anything else out there since it's the only thing like it. No other digital piano produces sounds that are purely modeled.

As I don't care what's under the hood - just how well the thing performs - my comparison rests purely on the feeling and the sound of the DP in question, and how well I am able to express musical thoughts on the instrument.

I've only spent about an hour each on the N3/N2 and the V, and whilst I liked them all, I felt more connection to the V.

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#1592203 - 01/06/11 07:29 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bobbo]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: bobbo
The OP has presented us with a false dichotomy.

Not necessarily. If a purchaser simply wished for the finest playing experience available on a DP, then both instruments would likely be on his or her shortlist.

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#1592209 - 01/06/11 07:34 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I think a module version of the V-Piano would miss the point of the V. The main advantage it has, where it is second to none, is the connection between player input and the resulting tonal change. The dynamics of it essentially. In this respect it is without equal in my view. I suspect part of its secret might be that the direct connection between the V's own keys and the tone generator might feature a greater number of levels than the MIDI spec because there is no doubt that the control of nuance possible with the V is truly exceptional - this is perhaps also a result of the V-Piano's intelligent chip that apparently adapts to your individual playing style etc. To hook up a rack version of the tone generator to any ropey old keyboard sending velocity information across the MIDI standard 127 levels would certainly not achieve the same level of control or feeling of connection with the thing. With the module version you would be left with a tone generator that plays no better than a bog standard DP but in some respects sounds appreciably worse - or perhaps I should say unnatural/artificial.

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#1592231 - 01/06/11 08:03 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3511
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I doubt anybody would hook a "ropey" old keyboard to a V-piano. It's a top piece of gear and anyone with the nous to buy one would have a very good keyboard to go with it.

You may well be right that there is a very good marriage between the keyboard and the the tone generator. Doesn't mean I wouldn't buy the module though. The are a lot of great keyboards that are similar to the one the V-piano uses - in particular the better roland keyboards have the same action.

About the MIDI. If it is in fact the case that the V-piano uses a higher velocity resolution, that extra information would be lost whenever using an external MIDI recorder. I think 127 is still a lot of levels. I think it's more likely that they have got the velocity curve just right on the V-piano so that it responds with an appropriate volume for the effort you are putting into the keys. A lot of DPs don't do this especially well - even with the user definable velocity curves.

Anyway, I may be entirely wrong about the marketability of a module, but I know that I would seriously consider it for myself if it was half the price of a V-piano.

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#1592411 - 01/07/11 05:57 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4847
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.


How do you forget you are using an electronic instrument when you are using a pair of headphones to use the instrument? The way acoustic pianos actually deliver sound when you play or listen to someone playing them seems vastly different than a headphone experience.


I'm really talking about the connection between my fingers and the sound that I hear - whether through headphones or speakers. As I can't use speakers, I can't say whether the sound experience would be even better that way, especially if I had the doubled pair connected, with the distance and angles from the console as Roland advises in their manual. (Apparently the sound through each of the 4 speakers is subtly different to give the illusion of a concert grand cabinet in front of you.)

For me, when an instrument responds so beautifully to every minute change in touch and attack, and seems to have no limit to its power and depth of tone (apart from the limitations of my own strength, that is), the illusion is complete even via headphones. Acoustic uprights simply pale in comparison because their tone bottoms out so easily (and become harsh above a certain dynamic level) that I always feel like I have to limit myself in ff - and their key action is inferior to the V-Piano's in that I can't perform rapid repeated notes on them, because the notes won't sound again unless fully released (unlike grands - and the V-Piano).

I've been looking to see why the console of the V-Piano is so wide compared to other DPs, and realize that it is to enable it to have long keys (longer than any acoustic upright, and comparable to 7ft grands) which give it very realistic key action - which is why switching to concert grands from the V-Piano is straightforward, unlike from an upright.

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#1592413 - 01/07/11 06:07 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: bennevis
For me, when an instrument responds so beautifully to every minute change in touch and attack, and seems to have no limit to its power and depth of tone (apart from the limitations of my own strength, that is), the illusion is complete even via headphones. Acoustic uprights simply pale in comparison because their tone bottoms out so easily (and become harsh above a certain dynamic level) that I always feel like I have to limit myself in ff - and their key action is inferior to the V-Piano's in that I can't perform rapid repeated notes on them, because the notes won't sound again unless fully released (unlike grands - and the V-Piano).

I agree with this; you've expressed this very well. I always found with the V-Piano that it just kept giving more.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I've been looking to see why the console of the V-Piano is so wide compared to other DPs, and realize that it is to enable it to have long keys (longer than any acoustic upright, and comparable to 7ft grands) which give it very realistic key action - which is why switching to concert grands from the V-Piano is straightforward, unlike from an upright.

The key length is exactly the same as all the other Roland DPs equipped with PHA-III (or II) action...there is nothing particularly special about the action (although it is very good).

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#1592489 - 01/07/11 10:02 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
athomik Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 299
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: ando
Imagine if you could use your Yamaha Avant Grand with a V-piano module, and even feed it back into the speakers of the Avant Grand. Now that would be something!

Considering that the V-piano only has 2 channels,you'd be wasting 10 of the 16 amplifier channels you get with the Avant Grand.
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Service Engineer - Hybrid Pianos & Strings

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#1592685 - 01/07/11 03:26 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
Ok ok ok James, so I'm a demanding consumer! Sue me! wink In all seriousness, I was thinking mostly about the V-Piano sound engine. Roland could very easily put the V-Piano in say the RG-1, RG-3, RG-7, or KRG-117 grand piano cabinet. I think they'd have sold a lot more if it came with different furniture. I think now that the RD700NX is out, most people will say, 'gee, I get the SuperNATURAL piano sound engine granted not modeled, but still very good sounding and it's SuperNATURAL, plus a plethora of other sounds, the PHA III Ivory Feel action/keys, and it costs me half the money, in a much lighter weight package...'. The V-Piano deserves to be in a grand piano cabinet with Roland's nice speaker system. After all, they are seeking to create the ultimate digital piano experience. Come on, that's not too much to ask! smile
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"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1592759 - 01/07/11 05:27 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
I agree PianoZac.

I have physically proven the concept recently with my stripped upright case loaded with the Adam A7's.

I have demonstrated for a few people. The beaming smiles on their faces in approval, acknowledgment and acceptance that it is real was all I needed to see. Who are these people? What are their credentials? Let me just say they are discerning individuals.

My original desire was to build the baby grand case but I thought I should travel along a path of gradual development starting with the existing upright case and customizing.

So imagine this: You walk into a piano show room , you choose a brand new grand , sit and play a melody passage. The brightness, liveliness of the new strings, hammers, soundboard produce the most beautiful clean articulated detailed sound. When I remove the front panel of the upright the sound produced from my Adams angled up pushing the sound past my ears emulates this experience. So I know how brilliant this would sound in a grand case.

Yes , Roland could deliver something fantastic. I am sure they are fine tuning a decision if one is not already made.

So PianoZac, Bennevis, EssBrace (I know you still believe although you returned your 'V') and I should sit with the Roland team and give them a stern dressing down and then a motivational speech.

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#1592773 - 01/07/11 05:50 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8869
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
PianoZac, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a demanding DP consumer. Indeed, folks like yourself are an asset to the industry. wink

The point I was attempting to make is that every consumer has slightly different needs. If manufacturers were to develop instruments based entirely on individual requests, they would be left with a highly fragmented product range, consisting of many instruments that each sell in relatively small quantities - that's simply not a profitable way to do business.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1592890 - 01/07/11 08:45 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: V_Piano_Man]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: V_Piano_Man
I have demonstrated for a few people. The beaming smiles on their faces in approval, acknowledgment and acceptance that it is real was all I needed to see. Who are these people? What are their credentials? Let me just say they are discerning individuals.

My original desire was to build the baby grand case but I thought I should travel along a path of gradual development starting with the existing upright case and customizing.

So imagine this: You walk into a piano show room , you choose a brand new grand , sit and play a melody passage. The brightness, liveliness of the new strings, hammers, soundboard produce the most beautiful clean articulated detailed sound. When I remove the front panel of the upright the sound produced from my Adams angled up pushing the sound past my ears emulates this experience. So I know how brilliant this would sound in a grand case.


I have no doubt that your setup sounds really great and nicely emulates the sound of an upright. A more direct use of the monitors will certainly yield better fidelity for listeners, but I think a D IY project using a real piano cabinet could be more effective than many of the consumer offerings out there.

That being said, I think overlooking why Yamaha chose to use multichannel processing with discrete output for the speakers placed on their “soundboard,” will give you something that might sound good, but in no way convincing if you are trying to reproduce the sound of an acoustic grand. It isn’t just about where you put tweeters, woofers, etc. Taking a 2 channel signal and pumping it through 4 speakers, or placing tweeters and woofers, are compromised ways to approach the reproduction of an instrument that radiates sound in all directions and has different tones being generated by strings that are located in specific areas of the piano. Yamaha definitely has the right approach using custom DSPs and multichannel recording and playback.

IMO, all of the pure digital grands out there are simply DPs in shiny cabinets because all they do is stuff speakers in a baby grand cabinet or have speakers resonate off a soundboard. I think the use of a soundboard is interesting but without using an approach similar to that found on the N3, you aren’t addressing one of the fundamental problems with trying to recreate the sound of an acoustic grand. It doesn’t matter for recording or most live stage performances. Nevertheless, if your goal is to create a digital grand piano that gives the user and listeners a transparent experience, DP sound technology has to be coupled with ideas that are well developed in sound reproduction.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (01/07/11 09:28 PM)
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#1592897 - 01/07/11 09:05 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kawai James]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1422
Originally Posted By: V_Piano_Man
I agree PianoZac.



Yes , Roland could deliver something fantastic. I am sure they are fine tuning a decision if one is not already made.

So PianoZac, Bennevis, EssBrace (I know you still believe although you returned your 'V') and I should sit with the Roland team and give them a stern dressing down and then a motivational speech.

I would love to have that opportunity! I agree, that perhaps Roland is considering putting the V-Piano, or offering at least, in a acoustic piano body. The V-Piano seems rather limited for the money insomuch as it is pretty much too heavy to gig with for all practical purposes, yet doesn't have the furniture that other digital pianos in its price range offer. I understand the V-Piano concept, and I really love playing it. I just feel Roland has a potential knockout in the V-Piano built in acoustic piano furniture.
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
PianoZac, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a demanding DP consumer. Indeed, folks like yourself are an asset to the industry. wink

The point I was attempting to make is that every consumer has slightly different needs. If manufacturers were to develop instruments based entirely on individual requests, they would be left with a highly fragmented product range, consisting of many instruments that each sell in relatively small quantities - that's simply not a profitable way to do business.

Cheers,
James
x

Yeah I agree James. It would be far too impractical and costly to attempt to please everyone. I am happy with what the DP manufacturers are putting I. As cynical as some are, I think the Latest Yamaha, Roland, and Kawai instruments are all really great compromises.
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#1593799 - 01/09/11 09:06 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: PianoZac]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4847
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
Ok ok ok James, so I'm a demanding consumer! Sue me! wink In all seriousness, I was thinking mostly about the V-Piano sound engine. Roland could very easily put the V-Piano in say the RG-1, RG-3, RG-7, or KRG-117 grand piano cabinet. I think they'd have sold a lot more if it came with different furniture. I think now that the RD700NX is out, most people will say, 'gee, I get the SuperNATURAL piano sound engine granted not modeled, but still very good sounding and it's SuperNATURAL, plus a plethora of other sounds, the PHA III Ivory Feel action/keys, and it costs me half the money, in a much lighter weight package...'. The V-Piano deserves to be in a grand piano cabinet with Roland's nice speaker system. After all, they are seeking to create the ultimate digital piano experience. Come on, that's not too much to ask! smile


I think that Roland, when thinking about how best to present their new V-Piano sound engine in the most marketable form, chose the stage/studio piano route because they know that that's where their customer base who're prepared to pay top bucks (in DP terms) for the ultimate in playing experience and customization lie. We can already see from the numerous posts here that the vast majority of keyboard players, when given a choice between a DP offering the best playing experience and a lesser one at half the price, still with excellent sound but not the ultimate in playability and 'feel' of a real piano, will choose the latter, especially when the cheaper model also offers all the non-piano gizmos (rhythm accompaniments, non-piano sounds etc) that they expect from DPs. Only Yamaha, with its track record in acoustic pianos, can attract purely classical pianist customers (probably the one group that demands the best in 'authentic' playing experience, and prepared to pay for it) to expensive DPs.

This was brought home to me a few weeks ago when a cellist friend (who plays in an orchestra, but is also a competant pianist and in fact has more piano students than cello ones) visited me. I invited her to try out my V-Piano but she demurred initially, saying that the Roland name and its appearance put her off regarding it as a serious instrument. Eventually she agreed to give it a go and put on the headphones, when I showed her the music I've been practising on it (all serious stuff, and seriously difficult of course grin). She was pleasantly surprised, really liking my 'Fazioli' setting especially, and gradually gained confidence to give it a full workout, playing technically challenging music and exploring the whole gamut of its tonal and dynamic range (- I'd asked her not to hold back, as I never do myself).

Afterwards, she admitted that it actually did play like a grand piano and has better tonal characteristics and played more positively than the Schimmel upright she has at home. But....when asked the million-dollar question: would she buy one for herself, if she ever had to replace her Schimmel? - she thought about it, then said she still couldn't bring herself to use an electronic instrument with a Roland name as her main piano, simply because Roland has never made a proper acoustic piano, whereas if it had the Yamaha name on it, and it was housed in a proper piano cabinet, she'd seriously consider it. (Unlike me, she'd played on DPs for years before, all Yamaha CLPs and mainly to accompany students because there was no acoustic available, but had never previously enjoyed the 'artificial experience', as she puts it - a term that never cropped up when she played on my V-Piano).

Therein lies the problem Roland faces, I think. Even if Roland put the V-Piano into a grand piano cabinet with an elaborate speaker system like the N3, they'd still have a hard sell on their hands: the only people who're prepared to fork out the cash would be serious classical musicians (considering buying baby grands perhaps) who need the silent option, yet they're the ones who wouldn't consider a Roland instrument (synonymous with rock and pop bands as their gig keyboards) as appropriate for a classical pianist brought up on purely acoustic pianos. Classical pianists like me who can dissociate aesthetics, appearance and brand from actual playing experience are few - but then I have the advantage that I'm only playing for myself, and noone need know what I'm playing on at home, which professional pianists and teachers don't have.

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#1594768 - 01/10/11 03:13 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
TTigg Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 873
Loc: Southern California
I don't know when or how much but they are listening and it IS coming. Here is a picture, looks like they're using a good sized cabinet also thumb



- Steve


Edited by TTigg (01/10/11 03:15 PM)
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