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#1591106 - 01/05/11 12:23 PM Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/10
Posts: 79
I think that we should compare the V-Piano to the Yamaha Avantgrand N2. Indeed, in fact the N2 does not cost much more than a V-Piano PLUS 4 amplified speakers PLUS the stand ... and it has a real AC Grand piano action keyboard.


And...The new YAmaha Avantgrand N1, to be anounced a NAMM, may give V-Piano some very tough competition. it is supposed to be priced like the V-Piano, but (1) with a real AC action, and (2) with built-in speakers, so in fact way cheaper than a V-Pianio since no need for extra costs on speakers and stand.

What do you think ? Which one do you prefer ?

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#1591107 - 01/05/11 12:27 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
I dont think that sampled DP's may they be the best of them,like N2, can compete with the modelling technology V piano has to offer. But take this with a grain of salt as it is based on youtube listening, although very carrefull listening. The V piano, i dont know....just sounds like a piano. The samples at their best in N2,N3, still fall short to my ear. As for the true GP action of N2, of course for those that aim at classical training is the best. I think though that, subjectivly speaking, there could be a bunch of folks who actually prefer other type of touch, like that in the V piano.

I would buy the V piano from what i've heard so far,....honestly.


Edited by Ovidiu M (01/05/11 12:28 PM)

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#1591153 - 01/05/11 01:23 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
I don't think one can completely compare the V-Piano to anything else out there since it's the only thing like it. No other digital piano produces sounds that are purely modeled. This review of the V-Piano in pianobuyer was pretty interesting:
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall10/150.html
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1591185 - 01/05/11 01:55 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Ovidiu M]
jeff749z Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 31
Loc: United States
I seriously considered the V Piano prior to purchasing my N2. The V Piano is a great instrument that would please some very discerning ears. The reason the N2 is a better instrument is because of the aural experience of playing it. With the transducers beneath the keybed (the same keys that are in Yamahas real grands), and the 4 channel speaker system - it blows away in V piano for the purest. The V piano does however allow for some very unique tweaking of the piano playing experience (all that modeling business). Having to add studio monitors still doesn't bring the V piano to N2's level though. So to some up: real wood keys and action, 4 channel sampling, and the aural experience make the N2 better for the purest. You'd have a hard time selling a V Piano to a composer or school, not so with the N2.
_________________________
Avant Grand N2
www.jeffkinder.com

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#1591188 - 01/05/11 01:57 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I played the V Piano today in a store and while I didn't play it for very long I did notice a quality about the sound that seemed slightly artificial.

I think it's a great idea for a software piano though.
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#1591515 - 01/05/11 11:12 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2772
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I don't see this comparison getting too far. Keep in mind what they are...the V-piano is a superfunctional keyboard devoted to uniquely developed "acoustic" piano recording/performing. I use parentheses because they are modeled not sampled. It's all about the sound engine and the creation of usable "acoustic" sounds.

The Avantgrand is Yamaha's most stylish, best sounding, acoustic piano simulation. Instead of redeveloping their DP action, they skipped to the end with the real thing. The sound is the best from their library and run through excellent speakers and attractively packaged. It's meant to look good at home or even on stage.

The V-piano is kinda cool looking, but no one would mistake it for having a stylish upright piano cabinet, and the exclusion of speakers is clearly intentional. If Roland made an even better action, it would have that.

To me, its like comparing a Jeep Wrangler to Nissan Maxima Coupe. 2 entirely different buyers.

If you're looking for a Roland comparison to the N2, you could look at the LX-10F. Now it is a good DP action (PHA III) but never quite a full acoustic action, but that is certainly reflected in the price difference. The other comparisons of built-in speakers (also a strength of Roland) and stylish cabinet (totally subjective) are still there just in a much lower price point. Roland's action has escapement feel while Yamaha's has cabinet vibration to help with visceral appeal. There's a lot to compare.

If someone really likes the idea of the N2 but doesn't have the budget, the LX-10F is a good place to look. The rumored N1 will be interesting to see where it falls in, but what if it is "a portable piano action" with outputs...kinda like the Bosendorfer CEUSmaster, but no one is talking (until next week? smile ). Very few products are without a comparative competitor. Other Clavinovas compare to Roland's HP models for that customer. Their pro-slabs compete; their workstations compete. I guess that's how I'd see it.

I just noticed this thread is started or included on multiple piano forums today. That's very thorough of you, B.Michels. Stir it up....
_________________________
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
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#1591834 - 01/06/11 11:25 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
They're aimed at different markets - the N2/3 is squarely aimed at classical pianists (as per their booklets and blurb, and hence their appearance), while the V-Piano is a stage & studio piano substitute which Roland thinks will appeal to rock & pop musicians for their gigs, and to studio owners who can customize its sound to suit all and sundry who record there.

Only thing is, the V-Piano has fallen into the clutches of classical pianists like myself, who doesn't give a dam* about its appearance (and non-resemblance to any known acoustic), and cares only about the playing experience and the sound quality at all tonal & dynamic levels (once tweaked judiciously), which beats anything else around - if the reason for that is its modelling technology, well, I take my hat off to Roland for all its R&D over the decades. The N2/3 just doesn't give me that authentic playing experience and still sounds like any sampled DP, albeit a superior one. Heard via headphones, all its advantages over the V-Piano (exceptional speaker system heard via grand piano-like cabinet) disappear, and the sampled problems (looping, unnatural decay etc) become all too evident. Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1591927 - 01/06/11 01:05 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I would be interested to see actual sales numbers, but I have been told by more than one retailer that the V-piano is not selling well at all. The opinion given to me was that it doesn't quite fit any market. Studios are better off with software solutions and stage performers want more versatility. I'm not sure that is entirely true, but I don't think the coffin-on-a-walker aesthetics help.

As for the V-piano v. N3 debate, I would personally pick the N3, even though I am probably about to sell my CP1 in favor of a 700NX.

The action on the N3 is amazing and offers a true substitute practice instrument for aspiring or professional acoustic players. You can practice on just about any weighted digital these days, but the N3 offers the most seamless transition for those who prefer acoustic grand pianos.

The delivery of sound on the N3 is not just about 4 speakers and the shiny cabinet. The discrete recording, processing and playback through independent channels are far more important than the aesthetic appeal of the N3. Trying to compare the sound of an acoustic grand to what you hear through a 2 channel setup, especially headphones, would make even the most competent loudspeaker manufacturer chuckle. Yamaha has drawn on its knowledge in A/V to tackle the problem. I don’t think the end result is perfect, but as far as digital grand piano substitutes go, it is step in the right direction and far better than anything out there. You can get a nice sound using a good monitor/loudspeaker setup, but you aren’t going to get discrete channels no matter what you do unless it was recorded and processed that way.
_________________________
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Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
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#1591936 - 01/06/11 01:16 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.


How do you forget you are using an electronic instrument when you are using a pair of headphones to use the instrument? The way acoustic pianos actually deliver sound when you play or listen to someone playing them seems vastly different than a headphone experience.
_________________________
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Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1591944 - 01/06/11 01:24 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bobbo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 118
The OP has presented us with a false dichotomy.

Completely different pianos, with different functions, for different market segments .

Should we care to compare a Ford Transit van to a Mercedes Coupe and debate which one is better?

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#1592007 - 01/06/11 02:57 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I wish Roland would make the V-piano in module form. It would be great if people could use the keyboard of their choice, but have the sound tweaking options of the V-piano. Imagine if you could use your Yamaha Avant Grand with a V-piano module, and even feed it back into the speakers of the Avant Grand. Now that would be something!

The problem is, there aways seems to be something lacking from every model. It surprises me sometimes that manufacturers don't consult more with customers. I am certain that I could draw up a list of specs that would please 90% of people here better than any single model in the DP market. How do they do realise this? You get a great action with a less than great sound experience. You get a great sound module with no piano casing, so no realism. Why can't somebody do it all and just make the ultimate DP?!

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#1592037 - 01/06/11 03:53 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
I wish Roland would offer the V-Piano technology in either a grand piano cabinet or a lighter smaller frame for stage piano players like myself. Several months back, I almost jumped the gun and bought the V-Piano, irregardless of the 80+ lbs it weighs. If the V-Piano was the weight of the RD700NX, I'd jump all over it, or charge more than the current V-Piano and put it in a grand piano cabinet.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1592053 - 01/06/11 04:11 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7115
Loc: So. California
Well then maybe the comparison should be Pianoteq vs. V Piano. It's all software after all.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#1592061 - 01/06/11 04:16 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: bennevis
... with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.
I have tried the V-Piano side by side with a bog-standard Yamaha upright. The (very undistinguished) real piano sounded and felt SO much better that it was almost laughable.
_________________________
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#1592117 - 01/06/11 05:24 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: ando
It surprises me sometimes that manufacturers don't consult more with customers.


Request 1:

Originally Posted By: ando
I wish Roland would make the V-piano in module form.


Request 2:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I wish Roland would offer the V-Piano technology in either a grand piano cabinet...


Request 3:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
...or a lighter smaller frame


Okay, so the V-Piano should be produced as:

- an expander module
- a grand piano cabinet
- a light-weight portable

So, two different individuals, posting one after the other, requesting three completely different products.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1592170 - 01/06/11 06:37 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kawai James]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: ando
It surprises me sometimes that manufacturers don't consult more with customers.


Request 1:

Originally Posted By: ando
I wish Roland would make the V-piano in module form.


Request 2:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I wish Roland would offer the V-Piano technology in either a grand piano cabinet...


Request 3:
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
...or a lighter smaller frame


Okay, so the V-Piano should be produced as:

- an expander module
- a grand piano cabinet
- a light-weight portable

So, two different individuals, posting one after the other, requesting three completely different products.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

Cheers,
James
x


James, these three options aren't as far-fetched as you make them sound.

The module would just involve putting the engine of the V-piano in a box and providing the right connections. Certainly not hard to develop or make.

The larger cabinet version would compete directly with the Avant Grand N3. The lighter version would be like the upcoming Avant Grand N1.

If you accept the word of critics. The strength of the Avant Grand is the action, but many feel let down by the quality of its sound. People seem far more impressed by the sound of the V-piano, but it doesn't come in true piano form. Seems like an opportunity to challenge Yamaha in that market.

Modules are popular with lots of people who play live, work in studios, and are happy with their controller keyboard. It may even be more popular than the V-piano itself because that takes up a lot of space in a studio. There are plenty of keyboards out there and many musicians prefer to play on their own keyboard. I would certainly enjoy having a V-piano module in my studio, but I don't have room for a V-piano.

The lighter version would be the doubtful one. I don't know what the market would be for this. The light version would probably end up with the stripped down version of V-piano that is already found in the HP models, like 305, 307.

Certainly the module and Grand version would find a place, given the people I've spoken to about this issue in the past. Of course, I don't know about the profitability of this industry.

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#1592197 - 01/06/11 07:22 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: PianoZac]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I don't think one can completely compare the V-Piano to anything else out there since it's the only thing like it. No other digital piano produces sounds that are purely modeled.

As I don't care what's under the hood - just how well the thing performs - my comparison rests purely on the feeling and the sound of the DP in question, and how well I am able to express musical thoughts on the instrument.

I've only spent about an hour each on the N3/N2 and the V, and whilst I liked them all, I felt more connection to the V.

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#1592203 - 01/06/11 07:29 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bobbo]
10fingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 298
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: bobbo
The OP has presented us with a false dichotomy.

Not necessarily. If a purchaser simply wished for the finest playing experience available on a DP, then both instruments would likely be on his or her shortlist.

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#1592209 - 01/06/11 07:34 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I think a module version of the V-Piano would miss the point of the V. The main advantage it has, where it is second to none, is the connection between player input and the resulting tonal change. The dynamics of it essentially. In this respect it is without equal in my view. I suspect part of its secret might be that the direct connection between the V's own keys and the tone generator might feature a greater number of levels than the MIDI spec because there is no doubt that the control of nuance possible with the V is truly exceptional - this is perhaps also a result of the V-Piano's intelligent chip that apparently adapts to your individual playing style etc. To hook up a rack version of the tone generator to any ropey old keyboard sending velocity information across the MIDI standard 127 levels would certainly not achieve the same level of control or feeling of connection with the thing. With the module version you would be left with a tone generator that plays no better than a bog standard DP but in some respects sounds appreciably worse - or perhaps I should say unnatural/artificial.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1592231 - 01/06/11 08:03 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I doubt anybody would hook a "ropey" old keyboard to a V-piano. It's a top piece of gear and anyone with the nous to buy one would have a very good keyboard to go with it.

You may well be right that there is a very good marriage between the keyboard and the the tone generator. Doesn't mean I wouldn't buy the module though. The are a lot of great keyboards that are similar to the one the V-piano uses - in particular the better roland keyboards have the same action.

About the MIDI. If it is in fact the case that the V-piano uses a higher velocity resolution, that extra information would be lost whenever using an external MIDI recorder. I think 127 is still a lot of levels. I think it's more likely that they have got the velocity curve just right on the V-piano so that it responds with an appropriate volume for the effort you are putting into the keys. A lot of DPs don't do this especially well - even with the user definable velocity curves.

Anyway, I may be entirely wrong about the marketability of a module, but I know that I would seriously consider it for myself if it was half the price of a V-piano.

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#1592411 - 01/07/11 05:57 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.


How do you forget you are using an electronic instrument when you are using a pair of headphones to use the instrument? The way acoustic pianos actually deliver sound when you play or listen to someone playing them seems vastly different than a headphone experience.


I'm really talking about the connection between my fingers and the sound that I hear - whether through headphones or speakers. As I can't use speakers, I can't say whether the sound experience would be even better that way, especially if I had the doubled pair connected, with the distance and angles from the console as Roland advises in their manual. (Apparently the sound through each of the 4 speakers is subtly different to give the illusion of a concert grand cabinet in front of you.)

For me, when an instrument responds so beautifully to every minute change in touch and attack, and seems to have no limit to its power and depth of tone (apart from the limitations of my own strength, that is), the illusion is complete even via headphones. Acoustic uprights simply pale in comparison because their tone bottoms out so easily (and become harsh above a certain dynamic level) that I always feel like I have to limit myself in ff - and their key action is inferior to the V-Piano's in that I can't perform rapid repeated notes on them, because the notes won't sound again unless fully released (unlike grands - and the V-Piano).

I've been looking to see why the console of the V-Piano is so wide compared to other DPs, and realize that it is to enable it to have long keys (longer than any acoustic upright, and comparable to 7ft grands) which give it very realistic key action - which is why switching to concert grands from the V-Piano is straightforward, unlike from an upright.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1592413 - 01/07/11 06:07 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: bennevis
For me, when an instrument responds so beautifully to every minute change in touch and attack, and seems to have no limit to its power and depth of tone (apart from the limitations of my own strength, that is), the illusion is complete even via headphones. Acoustic uprights simply pale in comparison because their tone bottoms out so easily (and become harsh above a certain dynamic level) that I always feel like I have to limit myself in ff - and their key action is inferior to the V-Piano's in that I can't perform rapid repeated notes on them, because the notes won't sound again unless fully released (unlike grands - and the V-Piano).

I agree with this; you've expressed this very well. I always found with the V-Piano that it just kept giving more.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I've been looking to see why the console of the V-Piano is so wide compared to other DPs, and realize that it is to enable it to have long keys (longer than any acoustic upright, and comparable to 7ft grands) which give it very realistic key action - which is why switching to concert grands from the V-Piano is straightforward, unlike from an upright.

The key length is exactly the same as all the other Roland DPs equipped with PHA-III (or II) action...there is nothing particularly special about the action (although it is very good).

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1592489 - 01/07/11 10:02 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
athomik Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 299
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: ando
Imagine if you could use your Yamaha Avant Grand with a V-piano module, and even feed it back into the speakers of the Avant Grand. Now that would be something!

Considering that the V-piano only has 2 channels,you'd be wasting 10 of the 16 amplifier channels you get with the Avant Grand.
_________________________
Adrian Thomas
Service Engineer - Hybrid Pianos & Strings

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#1592685 - 01/07/11 03:26 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
Ok ok ok James, so I'm a demanding consumer! Sue me! wink In all seriousness, I was thinking mostly about the V-Piano sound engine. Roland could very easily put the V-Piano in say the RG-1, RG-3, RG-7, or KRG-117 grand piano cabinet. I think they'd have sold a lot more if it came with different furniture. I think now that the RD700NX is out, most people will say, 'gee, I get the SuperNATURAL piano sound engine granted not modeled, but still very good sounding and it's SuperNATURAL, plus a plethora of other sounds, the PHA III Ivory Feel action/keys, and it costs me half the money, in a much lighter weight package...'. The V-Piano deserves to be in a grand piano cabinet with Roland's nice speaker system. After all, they are seeking to create the ultimate digital piano experience. Come on, that's not too much to ask! smile
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#1592759 - 01/07/11 05:27 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
I agree PianoZac.

I have physically proven the concept recently with my stripped upright case loaded with the Adam A7's.

I have demonstrated for a few people. The beaming smiles on their faces in approval, acknowledgment and acceptance that it is real was all I needed to see. Who are these people? What are their credentials? Let me just say they are discerning individuals.

My original desire was to build the baby grand case but I thought I should travel along a path of gradual development starting with the existing upright case and customizing.

So imagine this: You walk into a piano show room , you choose a brand new grand , sit and play a melody passage. The brightness, liveliness of the new strings, hammers, soundboard produce the most beautiful clean articulated detailed sound. When I remove the front panel of the upright the sound produced from my Adams angled up pushing the sound past my ears emulates this experience. So I know how brilliant this would sound in a grand case.

Yes , Roland could deliver something fantastic. I am sure they are fine tuning a decision if one is not already made.

So PianoZac, Bennevis, EssBrace (I know you still believe although you returned your 'V') and I should sit with the Roland team and give them a stern dressing down and then a motivational speech.

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#1592773 - 01/07/11 05:50 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
PianoZac, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a demanding DP consumer. Indeed, folks like yourself are an asset to the industry. wink

The point I was attempting to make is that every consumer has slightly different needs. If manufacturers were to develop instruments based entirely on individual requests, they would be left with a highly fragmented product range, consisting of many instruments that each sell in relatively small quantities - that's simply not a profitable way to do business.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1592890 - 01/07/11 08:45 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: V_Piano_Man]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: V_Piano_Man
I have demonstrated for a few people. The beaming smiles on their faces in approval, acknowledgment and acceptance that it is real was all I needed to see. Who are these people? What are their credentials? Let me just say they are discerning individuals.

My original desire was to build the baby grand case but I thought I should travel along a path of gradual development starting with the existing upright case and customizing.

So imagine this: You walk into a piano show room , you choose a brand new grand , sit and play a melody passage. The brightness, liveliness of the new strings, hammers, soundboard produce the most beautiful clean articulated detailed sound. When I remove the front panel of the upright the sound produced from my Adams angled up pushing the sound past my ears emulates this experience. So I know how brilliant this would sound in a grand case.


I have no doubt that your setup sounds really great and nicely emulates the sound of an upright. A more direct use of the monitors will certainly yield better fidelity for listeners, but I think a D IY project using a real piano cabinet could be more effective than many of the consumer offerings out there.

That being said, I think overlooking why Yamaha chose to use multichannel processing with discrete output for the speakers placed on their “soundboard,” will give you something that might sound good, but in no way convincing if you are trying to reproduce the sound of an acoustic grand. It isn’t just about where you put tweeters, woofers, etc. Taking a 2 channel signal and pumping it through 4 speakers, or placing tweeters and woofers, are compromised ways to approach the reproduction of an instrument that radiates sound in all directions and has different tones being generated by strings that are located in specific areas of the piano. Yamaha definitely has the right approach using custom DSPs and multichannel recording and playback.

IMO, all of the pure digital grands out there are simply DPs in shiny cabinets because all they do is stuff speakers in a baby grand cabinet or have speakers resonate off a soundboard. I think the use of a soundboard is interesting but without using an approach similar to that found on the N3, you aren’t addressing one of the fundamental problems with trying to recreate the sound of an acoustic grand. It doesn’t matter for recording or most live stage performances. Nevertheless, if your goal is to create a digital grand piano that gives the user and listeners a transparent experience, DP sound technology has to be coupled with ideas that are well developed in sound reproduction.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (01/07/11 09:28 PM)
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#1592897 - 01/07/11 09:05 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kawai James]
PianoZac Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1425
Originally Posted By: V_Piano_Man
I agree PianoZac.



Yes , Roland could deliver something fantastic. I am sure they are fine tuning a decision if one is not already made.

So PianoZac, Bennevis, EssBrace (I know you still believe although you returned your 'V') and I should sit with the Roland team and give them a stern dressing down and then a motivational speech.

I would love to have that opportunity! I agree, that perhaps Roland is considering putting the V-Piano, or offering at least, in a acoustic piano body. The V-Piano seems rather limited for the money insomuch as it is pretty much too heavy to gig with for all practical purposes, yet doesn't have the furniture that other digital pianos in its price range offer. I understand the V-Piano concept, and I really love playing it. I just feel Roland has a potential knockout in the V-Piano built in acoustic piano furniture.
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
PianoZac, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a demanding DP consumer. Indeed, folks like yourself are an asset to the industry. wink

The point I was attempting to make is that every consumer has slightly different needs. If manufacturers were to develop instruments based entirely on individual requests, they would be left with a highly fragmented product range, consisting of many instruments that each sell in relatively small quantities - that's simply not a profitable way to do business.

Cheers,
James
x

Yeah I agree James. It would be far too impractical and costly to attempt to please everyone. I am happy with what the DP manufacturers are putting I. As cynical as some are, I think the Latest Yamaha, Roland, and Kawai instruments are all really great compromises.
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#1593799 - 01/09/11 09:06 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: PianoZac]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
Ok ok ok James, so I'm a demanding consumer! Sue me! wink In all seriousness, I was thinking mostly about the V-Piano sound engine. Roland could very easily put the V-Piano in say the RG-1, RG-3, RG-7, or KRG-117 grand piano cabinet. I think they'd have sold a lot more if it came with different furniture. I think now that the RD700NX is out, most people will say, 'gee, I get the SuperNATURAL piano sound engine granted not modeled, but still very good sounding and it's SuperNATURAL, plus a plethora of other sounds, the PHA III Ivory Feel action/keys, and it costs me half the money, in a much lighter weight package...'. The V-Piano deserves to be in a grand piano cabinet with Roland's nice speaker system. After all, they are seeking to create the ultimate digital piano experience. Come on, that's not too much to ask! smile


I think that Roland, when thinking about how best to present their new V-Piano sound engine in the most marketable form, chose the stage/studio piano route because they know that that's where their customer base who're prepared to pay top bucks (in DP terms) for the ultimate in playing experience and customization lie. We can already see from the numerous posts here that the vast majority of keyboard players, when given a choice between a DP offering the best playing experience and a lesser one at half the price, still with excellent sound but not the ultimate in playability and 'feel' of a real piano, will choose the latter, especially when the cheaper model also offers all the non-piano gizmos (rhythm accompaniments, non-piano sounds etc) that they expect from DPs. Only Yamaha, with its track record in acoustic pianos, can attract purely classical pianist customers (probably the one group that demands the best in 'authentic' playing experience, and prepared to pay for it) to expensive DPs.

This was brought home to me a few weeks ago when a cellist friend (who plays in an orchestra, but is also a competant pianist and in fact has more piano students than cello ones) visited me. I invited her to try out my V-Piano but she demurred initially, saying that the Roland name and its appearance put her off regarding it as a serious instrument. Eventually she agreed to give it a go and put on the headphones, when I showed her the music I've been practising on it (all serious stuff, and seriously difficult of course grin). She was pleasantly surprised, really liking my 'Fazioli' setting especially, and gradually gained confidence to give it a full workout, playing technically challenging music and exploring the whole gamut of its tonal and dynamic range (- I'd asked her not to hold back, as I never do myself).

Afterwards, she admitted that it actually did play like a grand piano and has better tonal characteristics and played more positively than the Schimmel upright she has at home. But....when asked the million-dollar question: would she buy one for herself, if she ever had to replace her Schimmel? - she thought about it, then said she still couldn't bring herself to use an electronic instrument with a Roland name as her main piano, simply because Roland has never made a proper acoustic piano, whereas if it had the Yamaha name on it, and it was housed in a proper piano cabinet, she'd seriously consider it. (Unlike me, she'd played on DPs for years before, all Yamaha CLPs and mainly to accompany students because there was no acoustic available, but had never previously enjoyed the 'artificial experience', as she puts it - a term that never cropped up when she played on my V-Piano).

Therein lies the problem Roland faces, I think. Even if Roland put the V-Piano into a grand piano cabinet with an elaborate speaker system like the N3, they'd still have a hard sell on their hands: the only people who're prepared to fork out the cash would be serious classical musicians (considering buying baby grands perhaps) who need the silent option, yet they're the ones who wouldn't consider a Roland instrument (synonymous with rock and pop bands as their gig keyboards) as appropriate for a classical pianist brought up on purely acoustic pianos. Classical pianists like me who can dissociate aesthetics, appearance and brand from actual playing experience are few - but then I have the advantage that I'm only playing for myself, and noone need know what I'm playing on at home, which professional pianists and teachers don't have.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1594768 - 01/10/11 03:13 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
TTigg Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 873
Loc: Southern California
I don't know when or how much but they are listening and it IS coming. Here is a picture, looks like they're using a good sized cabinet also thumb



- Steve


Edited by TTigg (01/10/11 03:15 PM)
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#1594797 - 01/10/11 03:45 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bobbo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 118
I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...

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#1594800 - 01/10/11 03:46 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
drexel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 129
Loc: Earth
Cooooool!

Originally Posted By: bobbo
I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...


I bet it'll still be less than an N3 just for competition's sake. Especially since the original V-Piano was probably a bigger deal for Roland in terms of some novel technology offering and therefore pricing.


Edited by drexel (01/10/11 03:51 PM)

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#1594803 - 01/10/11 03:52 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: drexel]
bobbo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 118
Originally Posted By: drexel
Cooooool!

Originally Posted By: bobbo
I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...


I bet it'll still be less than an N3 just for competition's sake.


Maybe, but I find Roland digital grands are generally more expensive than Yams...

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#1594895 - 01/10/11 05:57 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Nice find Tigg!
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1594904 - 01/10/11 06:21 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
Brilliant! Interesting the position of speakers. Although can not see all detail from this photograph.

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#1594931 - 01/10/11 07:13 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bobbo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 118
If they do a RG style mini grand version of this I will be very interested...

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#1594939 - 01/10/11 07:23 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: TTigg]
Nikalette Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: California
Ooooo, I already love the V completely, but that V grand is so purty!!! 3hearts

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#1595144 - 01/11/11 05:08 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
I never thought Roland would put themselves out to challenge Yamaha like that. Funny, I was reading a review in a professional music journal recently that suggested that singer-pianists like Elton John might seriously consider putting the V-Piano into a Yamaha grand cabinet for their pop gigs, and noone need ever know they're not actually playing a real grand piano....

But what sector of the pianist market would Roland be targetting with this design? Many classical pianists would still need a LOT of convincing to even try out something with a Roland name on it - not to mention a DP of any sort (just read the posts in the Piano or Pianist forum): most already have ingrained prejudices which will be difficult to shift.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1595155 - 01/11/11 05:50 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: bennevis


But what sector of the pianist market would Roland be targetting with this design? Many classical pianists would still need a LOT of convincing to even try out something with a Roland name on it - not to mention a DP of any sort (just read the posts in the Piano or Pianist forum): most already have ingrained prejudices which will be difficult to shift.


You may be right, but it's still pretty ridiculous. I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits. I honestly don't think anybody would care if Elton John or Billy Joel turned up on stage with a Roland grand. It's the modern world. If Krystian Zimerman appeared with a Roland grand that might raise a few eyebrows though.

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#1595161 - 01/11/11 06:05 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
drexel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 129
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: ando
You may be right, but it's still pretty ridiculous.


I think you are underestimating the potential ridiculousness of people. Roland has been making digital grands for a while now. The question will most likely be whether or not the new V-Piano technology will be compelling enough for people to start buying them.

The market for digital grand pianos is a strange one.

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#1595162 - 01/11/11 06:05 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
Originally Posted By: ando
If Krystian Zimerman appeared with a Roland grand that might raise a few eyebrows though.


Er...yes, quite, especially if he turns up with his own tuning equipment (apparently he maintains and tunes his own pianos) grin..
It's all a matter of perception. There's a reason why concert grands have their names in big gold letters on the sides facing the audience ('heck, if that guy can make such a nice sound on that brand of piano, I'll have the same'). Roland, unlike Yamaha or Kawai, has no clout amoung classical pianists brought up on acoustics. And I can vouch for that myself, as I'd never heard of Roland till early last year when I was looking at purchasing a DP, when I then discovered that Roland is up there with Yamaha as the big names in DPs. (I've never attended a pop/rock gig in my life).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1595166 - 01/11/11 06:38 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: TTigg]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: TTigg
I don't know when or how much but they are listening and it IS coming. Here is a picture, looks like they're using a good sized cabinet also thumb



- Steve


Am I the only one here that thinks this is a hoax?
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1595170 - 01/11/11 06:56 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3900
Loc: North Carolina
Nope. I think it just screams "fake".

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#1595179 - 01/11/11 07:35 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
craggle Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 7
Loc: UK
Found this online about the new AG N1.....its from a trade cataogue so I don't think its fake...

www.musictrades.com/NewProducts.pdf
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#1595210 - 01/11/11 08:41 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: MacMacMac]
TTigg Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 873
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music

Am I the only one here that thinks this is a hoax?

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Nope. I think it just screams "fake".

This picture is not mine but belongs to someone on here that we know (well at least on the piano side anyway). He took this whilst he visited Roland HQ in Asia during 2010. It is not a fake and I'm guessing we'll hear more about it during this year thumb
- Steve
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#1596057 - 01/12/11 01:08 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: TTigg]
TTigg Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 873
Loc: Southern California
FYI just got conformation from Glenn @ Hollywood Piano Company that the VGrand IS going to be at Winter NAMM. So for anyone going, get some good pics, brochures, specs & details thumb

See - it's not fake thumb
- Steve
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#1772933 - 10/18/11 02:19 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
Mental Nomad Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: ando
I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits.


While I agree that they should both be assessed on their merits, I think you're off-base on the pedigree issue.

The Yamaha company is first, and foremost, a traditional musical instrument company - founded in 1887 by Torakusu Yamaha to make pianos and organs. That's a very specific pedigree. Their logo is still three tuning forks - an analog sound source for tuning acoustic instruments. And to assume the piano techs at Yamaha were not involved with the AvantGrand, which has their actual grand piano action, is an illogical assumption. Lastly, the vast majority of the physical parts in the AvantGrand are the pieces of the action, which seem to be identical to those used in the C3 - to assume these fine wooden parts are made anywhere other than in the acoustic piano factories makes no manufacturing sense.

Roland was not founded until well into the era of electronic instruments, and is an electronic instrument company. This says nothing about their quality, but it's clear why many people would see that pedigree as NOT appealing to someone with a love of acoustic instruments.


Edited by Mental Nomad (10/18/11 02:21 PM)

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#1772946 - 10/18/11 02:34 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3900
Loc: North Carolina
When responding to a post written 9 months ago, I wonder if the poster will ever see your response?

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#1772951 - 10/18/11 02:38 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: MacMacMac]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 542
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
When responding to a post written 9 months ago, I wonder if the poster will ever see your response?


yep...there should be a statute of limitations for comments over 6 months old. no fair dinging someone for ancient chatter.
_________________________

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#1772967 - 10/18/11 03:00 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Mental Nomad]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Mental Nomad
Originally Posted By: ando
I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits.


While I agree that they should both be assessed on their merits, I think you're off-base on the pedigree issue.

The Yamaha company is first, and foremost, a traditional musical instrument company - founded in 1887 by Torakusu Yamaha to make pianos and organs. That's a very specific pedigree. Their logo is still three tuning forks - an analog sound source for tuning acoustic instruments. And to assume the piano techs at Yamaha were not involved with the AvantGrand, which has their actual grand piano action, is an illogical assumption. Lastly, the vast majority of the physical parts in the AvantGrand are the pieces of the action, which seem to be identical to those used in the C3 - to assume these fine wooden parts are made anywhere other than in the acoustic piano factories makes no manufacturing sense.

Roland was not founded until well into the era of electronic instruments, and is an electronic instrument company. This says nothing about their quality, but it's clear why many people would see that pedigree as NOT appealing to someone with a love of acoustic instruments.


Action, yes, sound - not really. Both companies have a different approach to digital piano sound - neither of which are especially dependent on their pedigree as instrument makers. It's all good and well to make a DP with action parts from an acoustic, but unless the sound technology it's mated to is top notch, it's neither here nor there. Yamaha has a great action, but they need to work harder on their sampling/modelling/resonance technology. Where is their pedigree helping there? It isn't at present. And it's not that I'm anti-Yamaha - I do own a Yamaha acoustic. In the end, we should be just as demanding about the sound of the Yamaha as the action. For some reason, the AG gets cut some serious slack because of its action. Furthermore, pedigree is really an illusion: all that counts is the nature of the instrument being assessed. I could care less about what came before it because I'm not playing what came before it. I assess an instrument based on what is does now.

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#1773364 - 10/19/11 06:00 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
I was brought up on Yamaha acoustics - a little console-sized vertical in my childhood, then bigger uprights in school and then university. That didn't cloud my judgement when I decided to buy a DP, though most of the DPs I tried were actually Yamaha. IMO, Yamaha DPs are different beasts to their acoustics (apart from the fact that their sounds are sampled from Yamaha acoustics), as different as Yamaha motorbikes to Yamaha DPs grin.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1773412 - 10/19/11 09:38 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 283
Originally Posted By: B. Michels
I think that we should compare the V-Piano to the Yamaha Avantgrand N2. Indeed, in fact the N2 does not cost much more than a V-Piano PLUS 4 amplified speakers PLUS the stand ... and it has a real AC Grand piano action keyboard.


And...The new YAmaha Avantgrand N1, to be anounced a NAMM, may give V-Piano some very tough competition. it is supposed to be priced like the V-Piano, but (1) with a real AC action, and (2) with built-in speakers, so in fact way cheaper than a V-Pianio since no need for extra costs on speakers and stand.

What do you think ? Which one do you prefer ?


The V-piano I purchased came with a stand included? I have listened to both and with a good pair of headphones, the V-Piano sounds more realistic. However listening through the Avantgrand's speakers sound great. I do feel the V-piano has a lot more potential, especially with the 100 user slots for creating your own sounds. I am already doing that using Bennevis's thread with his custom sounds. We need more people buying the V-piano so they can join us in that thread. I know I am biased now that I have made my decision, however I recommend going and listening for yourself.


Dang, should have looked at the thread date..lol


Edited by Kona_V-Piano (10/19/11 09:40 AM)
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#1773427 - 10/19/11 10:30 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kona_V-Piano]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano
I have listened to both and with a good pair of headphones, the V-Piano sounds more realistic. However listening through the Avantgrand's speakers sound great.


I agree. thumb

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#1774500 - 10/21/11 05:11 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5548
I don't want to throw a spanner into the works grin, but I fancy that the AvantGrands may be replaced in the not-too-distant-future by updated versions, sampled from the new(ish) Yamaha CFX concert grand, which will replace the CF-IIIS in concert halls as their new flagship model.

For those not in the know, the CFX was unveiled to the world at large (rather successfully) in last year's Chopin Competition in Warsaw (www.konkurs.chopin.pl), where the competitors were given a choice of Steinway, Fazioli, Kawai and the Yamaha CFX. As it happened, the winner, Yulianna Avdeeva, won the finals playing on the CFX, and with the event being streamed worldwide on the internet, Yamaha got a big publicity boost.
The CFX seems to mark a new departure for Yamaha, having a more 'European sound', less bright and strident than its predecessor and therefore more suitable for classical pianists (as opposed to jazz and pop), as I discovered when I heard it recently.

It seems only a matter of time before all existing AvantGrands (and all Yamaha DPs) are replaced - unless there's a way to upgrade their sounds without buying new instruments.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1774693 - 10/21/11 02:34 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
"I don't want to throw a spanner into the works" Oh, I think you do.

The brand new CLP 400 series makes no mention of the using the CFX as a source and the CFX has been around a good while longer than the CLP 400s. All digital instruments (not just Yamahas) are replaced by new models at some point but there is no basis for thinking the current AGs will not have a relatively long life; its predecessor the GranTouch was in the Yamaha catalogue unchanged for over ten years.

And who knows, perhaps Roland will soon replace the V-Piano - with something that actually sounds like a piano. What a wonderful thing that would be!
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#1776109 - 10/24/11 08:45 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
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You don't think Yamaha will let on if they're currently setting up a CFX ready to be sampled, do you? grin When was the last time that any DP manufacturer told their customers in advance that all their DPs are going to be superseded/obsolete?

It may not be till next year - or even this Christmas, but it will happen, when the first Yamaha DP to be sampled from their CFX comes out. (And Yamaha will no doubt make a big song and dance about it then). After all, the CF-IIIS will soon be superseded/obsolete. Who wants to buy a DP sampled from an obsolete acoustic?

Even when Roland only brought out one upgrade last year for its V-Piano, you're already getting grumbles from several people..... grin
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#1776112 - 10/24/11 08:59 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
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BTW, I see you're putting yourself up for another bout of knockabout fun & games, sniping at the V-Piano again.....

Don't worry, Roland's V-P sound will never be obsolete, because you can customize any acoustic piano sound on it you like - see my other post for reference grin. And they sound like real pianos - you just need to have proper speakers or headphones to listen. And they don't all sound like Yamaha, believe it or not, unlike, er, Yamaha DPs. And Roland doesn't sample from a soon-to-be-obsolete instrument for its DPs.....
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#1776140 - 10/24/11 09:55 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Online   content
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Sounds like somebody got out of bed on the wrong side this morning...
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#1776176 - 10/24/11 10:53 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
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I should add that I haven't yet played the CFX myself, only heard it played in concert, but it did sound warmer, with a wider range of tonal nuances than the CF-IIIS. In fact, if I'd heard it 'blind', I probably wouldn't have guessed it was a Yamaha - maybe a very well-prepped Shigeru Kawai. Hopefully, I'll get to play it in the near future.
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#1776180 - 10/24/11 10:53 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bennevis]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 283
Originally Posted By: bennevis
BTW, I see you're putting yourself up for another bout of knockabout fun & games, sniping at the V-Piano again.....

Don't worry, Roland's V-P sound will never be obsolete, because you can customize any acoustic piano sound on it you like - see my other post for reference grin. And they sound like real pianos - you just need to have proper speakers or headphones to listen. And they don't all sound like Yamaha, believe it or not, unlike, er, Yamaha DPs. And Roland doesn't sample from a soon-to-be-obsolete instrument for its DPs.....


HAHA.. I have to get on the bennevis corner over here. Boxing gloves on in defense of the V-piano..lol..

As for Yamaha, they have to move on and come out with and market a new version of the AvantGrand at some point with their newest flagship grand. It is inevitable. It would be great if there was some kind of upgrade that could be done to current owners however that is highly, very highly unlikely looking at how Yamaha handles these things in the past.

As for the V-Piano, Roland needs to get in gear and continue to support it with upgrades and or patches. Roland can even charge some money for an upgrade patch if it is truly a new modeled piano sound beyond the two we already get.

One thing is for certain, if you have to get on the corner of upgradeablitity, no hardware digital can compare to the V-piano's potential. I just hope they continue to support it at least for another couple years before upgrading the model entirely. I certainly plan to use the V-piano for a long time and would welcome any new modeled piano that can be added.
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Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP990, Yamaha S90

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#1776194 - 10/24/11 11:14 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bennevis Offline
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Posts: 5548
Thanks for your support, Kona: it's nice to know that my corner of the ring is well-reinforced grin.
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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1776247 - 10/24/11 01:07 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Posts: 787
Does anyone know if the V uses true physical modeling? A Korg rep stated that he doesn't think any Roland products use true physical modeling. He believes it probably relies on additive synthesis. If that is the case, it wouldn't be the case that any piano sound can be created using the V because an underlying sample is still the starting point.
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#1776271 - 10/24/11 01:49 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kona_V-Piano]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 542
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: Kona_V-Piano



As for the V-Piano, Roland needs to get in gear and continue to support it with upgrades and or patches. Roland can even charge some money for an upgrade patch if it is truly a new modeled piano sound beyond the two we already get.



good, my whining is rubbing off on somebody..
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#1776273 - 10/24/11 02:02 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
ando Online   content
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Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Does anyone know if the V uses true physical modeling? A Korg rep stated that he doesn't think any Roland products use true physical modeling. He believes it probably relies on additive synthesis. If that is the case, it wouldn't be the case that any piano sound can be created using the V because an underlying sample is still the starting point.


Additive synthesis and modelling can be practically the same thing. To produce additive synthesis you don't necessarily need an underlying sample. It can be as simple as a sine wave and a basic platform, then you add oscillations and attack/decay envelopes etc until you build up a profile of a piano note. Modelling uses certain algorithms to mimic a physical reality but it can still be implemented using an additive approach. I don't know how the V-Piano works, but I thought I'd mention that. Fwiw, I doubt the V-piano is using samples because I think they wouldn't have had the same issues with the midrange if there was a piano sample under it. I also think that anything "added" to a sample could be pulled back to reveal the basic sample, at least somewhat. Yet this is not the case on the V-piano. You could easily work out whether samples are involved by inspecting the hardware - you could expect to see some sort of mass storage in there somewhere which holds the samples.

Btw, I don't know that you'd want to take the word of any competing manufacturer assessing a rival product. They all have an axe to grind whether they realise/admit it or not.

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#1776287 - 10/24/11 02:14 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
The distinction was between additive synthesis and pure physical modeling. I always assumed the V was a purely physically modeled sound, but the Korg rep seemed to think that was unlikely. I wasn't saying that the V uses samples for playback but that the initial waveform is taken from an attack sample..... Although I wonder how that makes it different than SN apart from the additional adjustable parameters.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (10/24/11 02:17 PM)
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#1776347 - 10/24/11 04:09 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
toddy Online   content
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Registered: 09/30/11
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What, then, is 'pure physical modelling'? Additive and subtractive synthesis are well established means of building up a sound from mechanically or purely electronically generated waves (Hammond and Moog, for example). Digital sampling is another thing - I assume digital pianos mostly dissemble and re-assemble samples to a greater or lesser extent, some largely playing back samples in tact, others involving a lot more analytical processing (Yamaha vs Roland?). But now, increasingly, there is this term 'physical modelling' which makes one think of piles of clay and plasticine. But what is it if not 'synthesis' and does it really not use samples at any stage of sound creation?


Edited by toddy (10/24/11 04:12 PM)
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#1776380 - 10/24/11 04:50 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 542
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
i loved how when the v-piano first came out you had all these roland rep's/contract musicians talking about how it used physical modelling instead of sampling, as if that was as well understood as the sun rising each day. you could tell they didn't have the slightest clue what they were talking about other than what their literature said. not that i know how it works either, and i've often wondered how the root sound actually is generated....
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#1776416 - 10/24/11 06:04 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3900
Loc: North Carolina
How very common (everywhere) ...
Quote:
they didn't have the slightest clue what they were talking about

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#1776429 - 10/24/11 06:19 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3705
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
The distinction was between additive synthesis and pure physical modeling. I always assumed the V was a purely physically modeled sound, but the Korg rep seemed to think that was unlikely. I wasn't saying that the V uses samples for playback but that the initial waveform is taken from an attack sample..... Although I wonder how that makes it different than SN apart from the additional adjustable parameters.


If they are using genuine physical modelling, there won't be any sample content in the sound. Pure modelling is done mathematically - there is no playback of any kind, it's realtime generation according to the physical model. I suppose you could argue that Roland took a look at real sampled attacks etc, and of course they would have, but that's different to actually using them. More likely, they used that information to refine their modelling. If you are able to change the attack characteristics in a continuously variable fashion, it is evidence of modelling, not sampling.

Modelling is a word used a lot in the music industry and it is rarely defined in a satisfactory way - especially once you add the proprietary techno-spin hype onto it. In the end we have to go back to how it sounds - which is what musicians should be doing.

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#1776432 - 10/24/11 06:22 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
Dave Horne Offline
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In the end we have to go back to how it sounds - which is what musicians should be doing.

Exactly.
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#1776439 - 10/24/11 06:34 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: bfb]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 283
Originally Posted By: bfb
i loved how when the v-piano first came out you had all these roland rep's/contract musicians talking about how it used physical modelling instead of sampling, as if that was as well understood as the sun rising each day. you could tell they didn't have the slightest clue what they were talking about other than what their literature said. not that i know how it works either, and i've often wondered how the root sound actually is generated....


I actually know a thing or two about modeling. If you really want to know more about it, read some of this below.

http://2uptech.com/intimate_control/RandallJones_MSc_FINAL2.pdf

You can start with the "A brief history" part wink

Excerpt

Most of the early work on physical modeling of musical instruments was focused on
strings. This is due to a combination of happy accidents: the equations describing the
vibration of an ideal string are straightforward to understand, computationally ecient to
simulate, and when used to make even the simplest models, produce sound qualities we
associate with stringed instruments.
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Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP990, Yamaha S90

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#1776469 - 10/24/11 07:02 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kona_V-Piano]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 542
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
thank you Kona. i will read up on it. i admit the roland guys pitching the platitudes of modeling is no worse than me trying to explain to my friends what the Federal Reserve is doing.
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#1776486 - 10/24/11 07:21 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: ando]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: ando
If they are using genuine physical modelling, there won't be any sample content in the sound. Pure modelling is done mathematically - there is no playback of any kind, it's realtime generation according to the physical model. I suppose you could argue that Roland took a look at real sampled attacks etc, and of course they would have, but that's different to actually using them. More likely, they used that information to refine their modelling. If you are able to change the attack characteristics in a continuously variable fashion, it is evidence of modelling, not sampling.


Yes I understand. My question was whether anyone can confirm that the V is based on pure physical modeling. The SN sounds use samples in the attack. The Korg rep seemed to believe that the V piano is based on the same underlying technology. A related point had come up on the Jupiter and it's VA section.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (10/24/11 07:22 PM)
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#1776664 - 10/25/11 12:28 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
I always assumed the V was a purely physically modeled sound, but the Korg rep seemed to think that was unlikely. I wasn't saying that the V uses samples for playback but that the initial waveform is taken from an attack sample.....


Hi Hideki,

First of all, never listen to what a "Korg rep" says about Roland's stuff as they are probably misinformed about the facts, anyway.

Here is Roland's word on that, copied directly from their product info:
(Note the words below, highlighted in red.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

V-Piano: V-Piano®

The Piano Redefined

Breaking Barriers
The V-Piano soars above the limitations of past technologies with its revolutionary “living” piano core, allowing every note to respond and evolve naturally, seamlessly, and perfectly without requiring samples.
With the V-Piano, there is no velocity switching, and it provides a smooth, natural decay that must be heard to be believed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#1776669 - 10/25/11 12:48 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, have you received your V-Piano yet?

James
x
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1776673 - 10/25/11 01:03 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
My question was whether anyone can confirm that the V is based on pure physical modeling. The SN sounds use samples in the attack.


And, I think to truly confirm what it is you are asking would require "dewster" (or, someone who can check the actual hardware of the V-Piano) to open it up, and, see if any samples are to be found. Not very likely, as such...

Here is a good article to read:

http://i.imgur.com/pfMdy

Or, just download the PDF, here:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/asp/2004/981942/abs/

And, a simple layman's explanation:

http://www.applied-acoustics.com/techtalk/physicalmodeling/

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#1776716 - 10/25/11 02:50 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Hi James,

Did reply to your question with a PM, instead.

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#1776718 - 10/25/11 02:52 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Okay, thanks.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1776721 - 10/25/11 03:01 AM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 283
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted By: ando
If they are using genuine physical modelling, there won't be any sample content in the sound. Pure modelling is done mathematically - there is no playback of any kind, it's realtime generation according to the physical model. I suppose you could argue that Roland took a look at real sampled attacks etc, and of course they would have, but that's different to actually using them. More likely, they used that information to refine their modelling. If you are able to change the attack characteristics in a continuously variable fashion, it is evidence of modelling, not sampling.


Yes I understand. My question was whether anyone can confirm that the V is based on pure physical modeling. The SN sounds use samples in the attack. The Korg rep seemed to believe that the V piano is based on the same underlying technology. A related point had come up on the Jupiter and it's VA section.


I can tell you that I am 100% certain the V-Piano does not use any samples, not even for the soundboard. Everything is emulated sound. Below is an excerpt of the pdf I posted above.



Physically-based modeling, or physical modeling, is a way to make sounds based on
the physics of mechanical systems. Compared to other kinds of synthesis such as FM or
sampling, it tends to be computationally expensive. Interesting vibrating systems, such as
musical instruments, are fairly complex; modeling the physics of these systems is much
more involved than modeling the sound spectra or waveforms they produce. Creating sonically interesting physical models that will run in real time has been a major challenge.
Despite this computational cost, however, physical modeling has been the most popular
synthesis approach in academic research since the early 1990s [62]. This popularity is
due largely to its promise to extend our acoustic world in perceptually novel yet intuitively
correct ways. Many researchers consider physical models to o er better prospects than
signal-oriented methods for the design of expressive digital instrume
nts


The V-Piano uses four of the latest modified Fantom synthesis engines running four distinct/separate three dimensional physical models running simultaneously. What is interesting is that each of the four interact with each other and affect the way each other sounds. Each model uses a mesh type of design that can be manipulated by changing shape (hammer size) and physical property (silver and copper for instance) and soundboard size thus changing the produced waveform.

Just think how far this technology has come from just 10 years ago. The article I posted talks about "Intimacy" of the user and the instrument.

The Supernatural Roland piano uses recorded samples of three of the synthesis engines and using one modeled sound engine to create the illusion that the decay time does not loop. In essence, no real piano is used to gain the supernatural piano sound as well.

I own and have used the Yamaha VL plugin with my S90 for the past ten years which uses a breath controller which I blow into which is letting the physically modeled single or 1 polyphony sound to be generated. Archaic by todays standards, it does mark a big leap in the technology field and it is a shame Yamaha has abandoned it.

MIDI keyboards typically have acceptable
latency and jitter for intimate control, but the musical keyboard interface is not a good
match for the intimate connection invited by physical modeling synthesis. It’s evident that
Yamaha realized this. They included a breath controller—a little-used option for keyboard
players at the time—with the synthesizers as a strong suggestion that more intimate control
was desirable.
Keyboard instruments are certainly capable of expressive performance, but they do not
o er particularly intimate control. Tools a ord certain kinds of use at the expense of others;
seen as musical tools, keyboard instruments trade intimacy for the control of harmonic
complexity. In order to o er this control, the piano mediates its soundmaking apparatus
through events. Each event, a keypress, triggers an excitation of a physical system, the
string, with an impact of a certain velocity. Compared to a guitar, say, the piano a ords very
little control over a note once is it started and in general, we can say that signals provide
greater control intimacy than events. Given the ubiquity of the keyboard as synthesizer
controller, its use to control physical models is understandable. But in our search for greater
expressivity, it makes sense to look for more intimate kinds of control.
A haptic connection is another vital aspect of musical intimacy with acoustic instruments. Vibrations of the instrument sensed by touch are often an important part of the performer’s sensory experience.


In the copy and paste process, some letters go missing and the formatting gets all messed up. You can go read the pdf I linked to in an earlier post, this one is from page 24. This article was written in 2008 btw, so it is a little dated, however the actual material is not that far off as to where the V-piano has come. The article talks about 2D sound vs 3D sound where the V-piano actually ended up. THe intimacy factor plays a huge part as to why the V-piano works so well and feels so organic. That is probably what took Roland so long to get it right.


Edited by Kona_V-Piano (10/25/11 03:04 AM)
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Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP990, Yamaha S90

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#1776878 - 10/25/11 12:10 PM Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano [Re: B. Michels]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1834
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
From "Medical Dictionary" at dictionary.com:


hap·tic definition
Pronunciation: /ˈhap-tik/ or hap·ti·cal Pronunciation: /-ti-kəl/ Function: adj1 : relating to or based on the sense of touch haptic mode of perception —Colin Gordon>2 : characterized by a predilection for the sense of touch haptic person>
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