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#1595606 - 01/11/11 08:13 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: C.Y.]
Smallpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 270
Loc: California
[/quote]
Just to clarify, Taiwan has never been ruled by the communist party. In fact, Taiwan and Hong Kong are probably the only places that still use the traditional Chinese characters. [/quote]

Yes, agreed with you
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#1595625 - 01/11/11 09:09 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Stanza]
Rui725 Offline
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Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: Stanza
The "I am the parent and I know what is best for you" works to some extent, such as getting the kid to eat broccoli...But we all have our natural proclivities and parents need to discover these and not force what just isn't there. An interesting quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but he clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.



The "He".....was Albert Einstein.


Yet another example taken from 99.99999% of the percentile, as are those that went on to win the Nobel Prize.

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#1595669 - 01/11/11 10:38 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
4evrBeginR Offline
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Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Amy Chua is a professor at Yale Law School. This one fact has more to shape her world/parental views in addition to being Chinese. Not all Chinese people are ultra competitive people, but I bet Yale Law Professors are very competitive regardless of ethnicity.

One of my neighbor is a very accomplished surgeon. My son goes to school with his son, and I always notice his son is a bit stressed in school, being enrolled in every extra thing, and always trying his best to be the 'smartest' kid. By the way, he is not Chinese. He is white. I wonder if his dad wants him to grow up to become a surgeon and is pushing him hard to be very competitive. But he does not seem too happy whenever I see him.

On the other hand, my other neighbor, Chinese guy, is a Chief of Emergency medicine locally at our HMO. He's really easy going with his children and do not force them into anything they don't like. He plays video games almost more than his son, and obviously, video games is allowed at his house big time. His kids attend private school, take piano lessons, but they don't practice much, and their dad doesn't think it's a big deal.

There is not one kind of Chinese people. There is a large diversity even within a single ethnic group. Ms. Chua made gross generalization about Chinese mothers, but it is no different than to generalize and say Yale Law Professors mothers are superior. Here's another generalization - highly competitive overachieving parents have very dysfunctional children. Generalizations are often just wrong or very twisted versions of reality.
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#1595681 - 01/11/11 11:05 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
SpecialKeysCereal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 35
As a "Chinese daughter" I didn't think the writer of this article was being serious. O.O

I really don't like stereotypes.

I nagged my parents about learning piano, not the other way around. But my mom said that if I hadn't ask to learn piano, she would have forced me to anyway laugh

I do have memories of pounding keys, ripping sheet music, etc, when my parents made me practise after I hadn't touched the piano in days. But my parents' threat was always: "If you don't practise, I'm going to cancel your piano lessons and sell the piano!!" So I practised. I pretended not to like practising though, even when it was fun. I was just being my stubborn self and wanted to be a difficult child.

I think parents are all different, and so are kids. My parents are strict, but even my mom and dad have very different parenting techniques and ideas...

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#1595694 - 01/11/11 11:33 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
An antidote to all this self-promoting claptrap from Chua ...

On Chinese Mothers and American Kids
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#1595850 - 01/12/11 07:29 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: ll]
CebuKid Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Here are some things Amy Chua would never allow her daughters to do:

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

• not play the piano or violin


Are piano and violin really considered the best instruments for "cognitive development?" What's wrong with the trumpet or guitar?

Thoughts anyone?

PS-I think I'll get this book today (on the Kindle).
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#1595894 - 01/12/11 09:03 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: CebuKid]
childofparadise2002 Offline
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Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 542
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
Here are some things Amy Chua would never allow her daughters to do:

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

• not play the piano or violin


Are piano and violin really considered the best instruments for "cognitive development?" What's wrong with the trumpet or guitar?



I wouldn’t take such claims seriously. It’s just one mom’s preference. This mom certainly has some extreme views. I don’t know many Asian parents who would go to such extremes. If anything, I have seen in the past few days quite a few Asian parents responding to her article and vehemently opposing her views. As far as I know some Chinese parents steer their kids to avoid violin, because down the road when the kids audition for good orchestras, violin is usually the most competitive instrument.

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#1595897 - 01/12/11 09:05 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Yeah, try something hard, like the French Horn instead of the silly violin. grin
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#1595927 - 01/12/11 09:53 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
FarmGirl Online   content

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Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1990
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
I am not a Japanese. As she left out my country from the list of potential chinese (style) mom of origin, I don't think anyone practices this sort of child upbringing. Maybe in the old days when Japan was trying to catch up with Western countries in terms of military and economic might. I think this type of parenting will fade in time as general living standard of china improves and they discontinue their one-child policy (mainland china only). They are still very "hungry" and eagar to succeed. Also understand that most of the new chinese immigrants are not their average joe in china. Especially the ones from the mainland, they are selected to come here. I have a friend from the main land china. She practiced the same parenting style on her children. She was a lawyer and her husband physician. They could come here even before china adopted some westernized economic policies. Why? Because the husband was selected to study at a medical U. Parents themselves are high achievers who believe in their superiority of genes and therefore, they do believe in their kids can do better. Chinese average joe won't even try this. Now her daughter is in Harvard. She is very happy but no one really likes to be around her since she brags about her too much. Like, "I can't believe so relaxted americans are! why don't you tell your kids that grades = money. not only an each A contributes to higher future earnings but the country gives you money (scholarship, grant, etc) if you excel. it's really stupid not to take advantage of it. i know my kids are grateful now". this could be a formula for success but i say no thanks knowing very well that my friend attritues recent japanse economic decline to the relaxed standards. I own my life and each moment of my life counts. success is not everything. I am very content with my life.
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#1595929 - 01/12/11 09:54 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
FarmGirl Online   content

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Registered: 09/14/10
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oops i meant that i am not chinese in the first sentence.
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#1595937 - 01/12/11 10:04 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: CebuKid]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
[i]Thoughts anyone?PS-I think I'll get this book today (on the Kindle).


Which is exactly what that article was for, to get you to buy her book. frown
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#1595981 - 01/12/11 10:54 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
RonaldSteinway Offline
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Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
OK..I read the whole book last night. The WSJ article is just a provocation to make people want to read or buy the book. The book itself does not claim what WSJ article stated. Once you read the book, you will have different perspective.

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#1595990 - 01/12/11 11:04 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Minniemay]
childofparadise2002 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 542
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
[i]Thoughts anyone?PS-I think I'll get this book today (on the Kindle).


Which is exactly what that article was for, to get you to buy her book. frown


Yeah, but you have to admire the nicely pulled publicity stunt, especially given that those who have read the book say that the book actually doesn't make the claims of the WSJ article. See: throw out a controversy (or in some Asian parents' mind, an insult), then if you want to know what I really think, buy the book!

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#1596005 - 01/12/11 11:27 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: childofparadise2002]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: CebuKid
[i]Thoughts anyone?PS-I think I'll get this book today (on the Kindle).


Which is exactly what that article was for, to get you to buy her book. frown


Yeah, but you have to admire the nicely pulled publicity stunt, especially given that those who have read the book say that the book actually doesn't make the claims of the WSJ article. See: throw out a controversy (or in some Asian parents' mind, an insult), then if you want to know what I really think, buy the book!


The reason I bought the book is that I would like to know how she will be able to face her students at Yale if she really made claims her superiority way of raising kids like what in the WSJ article. It is just hard to believe a smart woman like her to claim all those politically incorrect assertions. Again, she is very smart in marketing her book.

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#1596019 - 01/12/11 11:57 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
dumdumdiddle Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: California
Watching the interview with her on the 'Today Show', she seemed to back-pedal from some of her more controversial statements made in the article. She said her book was really more 'anecdotal' and not necessarily telling parents that her way of raising kids was better.

But then, as she started to explain some of her concerns with 'American' style parenting (some of which I do agree with her), she got cut off because time had run out for the interview.
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#1596043 - 01/12/11 12:47 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Watching the interview with her on the 'Today Show', she seemed to back-pedal from some of her more controversial statements made in the article. She said her book was really more 'anecdotal' and not necessarily telling parents that her way of raising kids was better.

But then, as she started to explain some of her concerns with 'American' style parenting (some of which I do agree with her), she got cut off because time had run out for the interview.


When you read the book, her tone is totally different.

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#1596130 - 01/12/11 02:57 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Rui725]
Stanza Offline
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Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: Stanza
The "I am the parent and I know what is best for you" works to some extent, such as getting the kid to eat broccoli...But we all have our natural proclivities and parents need to discover these and not force what just isn't there. An interesting quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but he clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.




The "He".....was Albert Einstein.


Yet another example taken from 99.99999% of the percentile, as are those that went on to win the Nobel Prize.


No, My main point is that had Einstein followed his parents wishes, his contributions to physics might have been lost.
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#1596203 - 01/12/11 04:51 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Stanza]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: Stanza
The "I am the parent and I know what is best for you" works to some extent, such as getting the kid to eat broccoli...But we all have our natural proclivities and parents need to discover these and not force what just isn't there. An interesting quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but he clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.




The "He".....was Albert Einstein.


Yet another example taken from 99.99999% of the percentile, as are those that went on to win the Nobel Prize.


No, My main point is that had Einstein followed his parents wishes, his contributions to physics might have been lost.


You have no point here, because Einstein thing is not applicable to most normal human being. You need to use an example that applicable to most normal people.

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#1596213 - 01/12/11 05:02 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
C.Y. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Do bullies have low self-esteem or high self-esteem? If "American parenting" focus on self-esteem, why there are so many bullies in schools?

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#1596335 - 01/12/11 08:48 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: RonaldSteinway]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: Stanza
The "I am the parent and I know what is best for you" works to some extent, such as getting the kid to eat broccoli...But we all have our natural proclivities and parents need to discover these and not force what just isn't there. An interesting quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but he clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.




The "He".....was Albert Einstein.


Yet another example taken from 99.99999% of the percentile, as are those that went on to win the Nobel Prize.


No, My main point is that had Einstein followed his parents wishes, his contributions to physics might have been lost.


You have no point here, because Einstein thing is not applicable to most normal human being. You need to use an example that applicable to most normal people.


Stanza could argue: "if only more people disobeyed their parents and followed their own dreams, we would have more Einsteins in our society and then, these Einsteins wouldn't be such a rare breed anymore". You wouldn't be able to disprove this hypothesis, nor would Stanza be able to prove it (that this approach would produce more Einsteins), neither person really has a point.
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#1596346 - 01/12/11 09:13 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: liszt85]
Rui725 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 953
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Stanza
Originally Posted By: Rui725
Originally Posted By: Stanza
The "I am the parent and I know what is best for you" works to some extent, such as getting the kid to eat broccoli...But we all have our natural proclivities and parents need to discover these and not force what just isn't there. An interesting quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but he clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning.




The "He".....was Albert Einstein.


Yet another example taken from 99.99999% of the percentile, as are those that went on to win the Nobel Prize.


No, My main point is that had Einstein followed his parents wishes, his contributions to physics might have been lost.


You have no point here, because Einstein thing is not applicable to most normal human being. You need to use an example that applicable to most normal people.


Stanza could argue: "if only more people disobeyed their parents and followed their own dreams, we would have more Einsteins in our society and then, these Einsteins wouldn't be such a rare breed anymore". You wouldn't be able to disprove this hypothesis, nor would Stanza be able to prove it (that this approach would produce more Einsteins), neither person really has a point.


The probability of having an consistent IQ on the magnitude of "genius" is enough to prove my point. Unless there are people out there disillusioned enough to really believe they are smart as they say they are, then the percentage of the population that is both exposed to the right nature and nurture is slim. The question is not "if", but "when" to disobey your parents. Critical disciplinary lessons and morale should be instilled at a young age such that the child reaches his/her teens, irregardless of what decision in life he/she makes, will do no harm to society at worst.

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#1596353 - 01/12/11 09:19 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
eweiss Offline
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Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
The point Stanza was trying to make (I think) is that love of learning vs. the do it my way or else philosophy is what made the difference in Einstein's case.

He loved physics and that love (and an amazing imagination) allowed him to go far. Very, very far.

What you don't hear too much from many Asian parents (I think) is the 'I support you if you follow your dreams.' What you do hear (the stereotype) is, 'pursue a career that will make good money and make me proud.'

Two highly divergent viewpoints and roads that lead to very different destinations. smile
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#1596360 - 01/12/11 09:39 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: C.Y.]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: C.Y.
Do bullies have low self-esteem or high self-esteem? If "American parenting" focus on self-esteem, why there are so many bullies in schools?


Contrary to popular belief, aggressive tendencies overall are associated with higher levels of self-esteem (see recent reviews by Roy Baumeister).

Edit: After receiving a PM asking for more details about that finding, I thought I'd add a link to one of the review articles I was talking about, entitled "Does Self-Esteem Cause Better Performance, Interpersonal Success, Happiness, or Healthier Lifestyles?". (Short answer: No. laugh )

http://www.csom.umn.edu/Assets/71496.pdf


Edited by Monica K. (01/12/11 10:32 PM)
Edit Reason: added link to review article on self-esteem
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#1596399 - 01/12/11 11:00 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Monica K.]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: Monica K.

Contrary to popular belief, aggressive tendencies overall are associated with higher levels of self-esteem (see recent reviews by Roy Baumeister).


I would look up those reviews if only my graduate program's workload let me. However, being a graduate student in Psychology, I'm wary of such findings that claim "correlations" or "associations". There's always some other variable that people haven't controlled for. There's always a statistical issue at hand, whose philosophical implications if thought through, might show that such analyses are not conclusive in the least. Then of course the issue of individual differences. Most people average data over subjects hoping that all that they haven't controlled for would get "averaged out" as noise (which is obviously false because those uncontrolled variables are not random variables). So I have my reservations about this type of finding, that pervades all(most) of the social psych literature right now.
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#1596704 - 01/13/11 12:36 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: eweiss]
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Originally Posted By: eweiss
The point Stanza was trying to make (I think) is that love of learning vs. the do it my way or else philosophy is what made the difference in Einstein's case.

He loved physics and that love (and an amazing imagination) allowed him to go far. Very, very far.

What you don't hear too much from many Asian parents (I think) is the 'I support you if you follow your dreams.' What you do hear (the stereotype) is, 'pursue a career that will make good money and make me proud.'

Two highly divergent viewpoints and roads that lead to very different destinations. smile


Thank you, eweiss
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#1596779 - 01/13/11 02:44 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Akira Offline
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Registered: 07/27/07
Posts: 1645
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Surprising views, coming from an American-born Chinese and also married to a (non-Chinese) American.

I would have imagined her views, in the extreme, would lie somewhere between immigrant Asian and Western (stereotypical) parenting.

It's as if, she is an immigrant herself. She's not.


Edited by Akira (01/13/11 02:45 PM)

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#1597062 - 01/13/11 11:40 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Candywoman]
Mary Williams Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 58
Loc: United States
"...In another room, another mother of a seven year old was paying for an extra lesson on how to join rh and lh for the Little Donkey, and having a lot more fun..."

This is a great comment. Forty-five minutes with a good teacher would have been more fun, and taken the extra stress out of that mother/daughter relationship.
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#1597066 - 01/13/11 11:53 PM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Mary Williams Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 58
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
I'd like to know from our Asian teachers and students.... is this how you learned piano? Is this what you experienced as a child (no play dates, no dating, etc...)?



While judging a piano competition for young children, a tiny Asian boy came up to tell me that this music was really hard and piano lessons were difficult because his teacher wasn't American.

The comment was very cute and a little scary at the same time. I had wondered how he had come about this idea of "non-American" teacher, and how his family may have been a little flushed if they had heard him say that to the blonde-haired, blue-eyed judge.

As a piano teacher who has students constantly playing in festivals and competitions in the area, I will say that when my students make it to the Winner Recitals, they do tend to be the 'token white student,' but they all seem to be having fun, no matter what their race.
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#1597211 - 01/14/11 08:33 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: liszt85]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: Monica K.

Contrary to popular belief, aggressive tendencies overall are associated with higher levels of self-esteem (see recent reviews by Roy Baumeister).


I would look up those reviews if only my graduate program's workload let me. However, being a graduate student in Psychology, I'm wary of such findings that claim "correlations" or "associations". There's always some other variable that people haven't controlled for. There's always a statistical issue at hand, whose philosophical implications if thought through, might show that such analyses are not conclusive in the least. Then of course the issue of individual differences. Most people average data over subjects hoping that all that they haven't controlled for would get "averaged out" as noise (which is obviously false because those uncontrolled variables are not random variables). So I have my reservations about this type of finding, that pervades all(most) of the social psych literature right now.


Since you are in the Psychology field, you should do some study and then write a paper on this Chinese way of learning piano phenomena. We know that there have been so many successful results from utilizing this force method of learning piano.

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#1597217 - 01/14/11 09:01 AM Re: Article: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior to Western Mothers [Re: Mary Williams]
childofparadise2002 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 542
Originally Posted By: Mary Williams


As a piano teacher who has students constantly playing in festivals and competitions in the area, I will say that when my students make it to the Winner Recitals, they do tend to be the 'token white student,' but they all seem to be having fun, no matter what their race.


But the other, non-white, kids who got to the winners recitals might also be having fun! High expectations don't necessarily exclude fun. It depends on whether the high expectations are in line with the child's own motivation and abilities. The little boy's comment is cute but the difference between teachers of different nationalities or ethnicities might not be that huge if we control for other factors such as the background of the teachers and the background of the students.

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