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Hi all,

This is my first post here.
I have some questions regarding "new" stage pianos and their amplification.

At home I have an acoustic Schimmel upright, which sounds very good. I play mainly jazz, but I like also to play some classical pieces.

Several months ago, I have started to play in a new jazz quintet. When we repeat, I play on acoustic uprights (not very good, but it swings).

Well, one month ago (and after several years without playing live), we gave our first concert. Of course, no acoustic piano was available, so I played on my ten years old Kawai ES-1.
It was amplified (so, in mono) using a RCF art 310A.
I was really disappointed, since the sound was really bad, even using equalizer.
Moreover, all I played sounded awkward and, worst, I didn't manage to "swing".
Since that, I'm looking for a new stage piano (and some solutions to make it sound good live) and I found this (very good) forum.
My main objective is to have pleasure while playing live.

I went to the local music store and tried the Yamaha CP-5.
At first, I was really impressed with the responsiveness and the sound of this DP.
But, after playing it several times, there is two things that disturb me:
-the sound becomes very unrealistic at pp (it becomes very thin, as if it was forte but recorded very far)
-the default reverb seems very synthetic (altough I think it may be tweaked)

Two weeks later, Roland RD-700NX arrived at store and I tried it.
The action as well as the sound is very good, altough a bit metallic at ff (but equalization seems to help). I prefered it over the CP-5.
I also tried the FP-7F, but the action is not the same as the 700NX (I compared them without sound), a bit lighter and it feels more "plastic", so I have eliminated it.
I didn't have the opportunity to try the Nord Piano, which seems to have very good piano sounds.
However, since I'm looking for a good action, I have also eliminated this one.

Meantime, I tried and bought Pianoteq Play, which is good, but the sound is a bit thin in the high range.
Moreover, the action of my ES-1 is very light, and I would like to replace it for a more realistic one.

So, I'm now hesitating between the CP-5 and 700NX.
All I need is a good piano sound with a good action which can sound well live (I don't need all the synth sounds of the CP-5 and the 700NX...).
I prefer the sober look of the CP-5, since the RD-700NX looks more like a synth.
Also, I like the action of the CP-5, but the action of the 700NX seems more realistic (more heavier).
Actually, I would have bought already the 700NX if I hadn't view in this forum the polyphony issue related to Supernatural sound.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNGiJjPEI4)
However, I didn't managed to reproduce the issue pointed in this video.

So, I have several questions:

1) Is the polyphony issue of the 700NX really annoying? (I don't use layers, but can play block chords).
2) In order to practice improvisation alone, I will make an intensive use of the audio playback feature. Is this really unusable with the
700NX (as it is suggested in the above video)?
3) Regarding these issues, would you advise me to buy a CP-5 instead of a 700NX?
4) I have tried all these DP through AKG-701 headphones. How will they compare when using with a PA system?
5) For small gigs (bars, restaurants,...), can two monitors (like these ones http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1963)
be sufficient?


Thanks for reading!

Benoît
(English is not my mother tongue, so please be comprehensive ).

I can answer at point one:

1) Is the polyphony issue of the 700NX really annoying?

YES, it is.

(I don't use layers, but can play block chords).

Don't worry in that case. I experienced the issue only with SN pianos and strings layered.

Benoit, I can't speak of the NX but I did have a GX with the Supernatural upgrade. In the time I used the upgrade, I didn't become aware of any polyphony limitations and I am quite a "busy" solo jazz player. The only reason I decided to sell was because of the metallic edge you mention at the top end of the dynamic range. You've already tried the NX - I can only suggest that you go back and put it to the test to determine whether it's going to be a problem.

As I pointed out in this thread, the audio playback problems in the video you linked to could be due to the backing track being an MP3, resulting in a higher load on the processor as it decompresses the audio. Using .wav files should impact less on the processor. As I also pointed out, the kind of playing the guy on the video was doing was not typical of a pianist playing along with a bassist.

Hope that helps.

.

Dave, would be interested to know what tweaks you made to the default reverb, beyond the obvious one of reducing the time?

I just went to Corner Music, here in Nashville, and played the RD700NX, CP5, and Nord Piano. I briefly owned the RD700NX, but had the unique chance to play it back to back with the the other two.

The RD700NX is the best in the action department, but honestly, it's pretty dang tough to feel the difference between the PHA III and the PHA II in my RD700GXF. The Yamaha second, and the NP last. With that said, I played Rondo alla Turca on all three, as well as Wynton Kelley's solo transcription for 'Dark Eyes' (lots of speed and trills in both pieces) and the Nord was surprisingly responsive. I played as well on the Nord as I did on the others.

Sound wise, it's purely personal, but if I had to rate them on how well they connected, I'd rate the Nord first. At first I wasn't crazy about the Nord, but there's something organic in the way it connected the sound action, and pedaling. The Yamaha and Roland both sound fantastic, but I'd put the Roland ahead. The SN is quite aswesome, but the new CP1/5 sound really damn good as well.

This is a tough comparison, and entirely personal. Our friend Dave here has a lot of real time experience gigging both the Nord and CP5, and liked both in different ways. One thing that has bothered me since I've had my Rolands is that they don't cut through nearly as well live as Yamahas. I just gigged with my RD700GXF over Christmas, doing Mel Torme's 'The Christmas Song', and was accompanied by a full band (drum, bass, vibes, guitar) and a guy playing some on a Motif XS8, and I was shocked at how much better live the Yamaha sounded. What bothered me most, was that the SuperNATURAL pianos in my GXF didn't sound any better or more full live than the stock pianos samples that came with my GX before the SN upgrade. That really puzzled me. And unfortunately, when I layer SN pianos on my GXF (and even when I tried on the NX today), that's when the polyphony issue really rears its ugly face. With headphones or through monitors, my Roland is much nicer and full sounding, but in a live mix, I don't know what the heck happens to Rolands. Surely someone with much better technical expertise like dewster, Aiden, Dave, K. James, Essbrace, etc. can possibly explain why this is the case.

Well, this will be gross over-simplification but I think in some ways it just comes down to brightness. The classic Yamaha sound is powerful and even and quite bright, especially in the upper midrange and treble. And this does cut through...it is the area on the keyboard where your listener is also focusing particularly in an ensemble situation where you don't expect the piano's bass to be very articulate or that easy to hear (well, it would be if heard in isolation but is drowned by the other players). You can make the Roland bright but all you are really doing is turning up the treble on a sound that started out with a more mellow timbre and to my ears a tweaked and bright Roland sounds awful.

I think Roland must be very well aware of all this because they've equipped the NX with this new sound focus doodah...apparently with mixed results.

Just my theory!

Steve

How can the keyboard of an FP7F feel different from RD700NX? They are both PHAIII.

Hi jazzwee,

I don't know, but they are really different (at least for the two models I have tried...).
It's not a difference related to player/music connection, they physically feel different.

Benoît

Must be the 'S'. (compare the specs)

.

Even for actions with identical names, in different models it is common for them to feel noticeably different. I presume this is done to limit confusion or any negative perception of older models given any small changes or refinements made to similarly titled actions in newer digital pianos. That many pianists here are able to distinguish subtle differences between the models is simply a testament to the sensitivity of the pianist.

Well I'd sure be interested to know if this is factually true. The action was the main reason I bought the FP7F and that it was the same action as the V and RD700NX. I never had these side by side but I recall they felt the same.

Of course Dave. You've certainly given me your fair share of good advice.
Well I can attest that the PHA III on the RD700NX doesn't feel the same as the PHA III on the V-Piano. This could very well be the difference in the sound engines. One thing for sure, as soon as I installed the SN kit in my RD700GX, it made the action feel better even though it was the same keyboard. I can totally see how the PHA III on the RD700NX, FP-7F, and V-Piano would vary from instrument, not in a mechanical sense, but with 3 different constructions of the instruments, there could be variances.

Benoit mentioned that he was talking about an action comparison with the sound off.

With sound, the feel of the keys depend on a lot of factors. Just the "touch" setting alone would change your reaction, particularly since the touch can be configured to 100 levels. And you never know how the DP was set (a restart on the RD700NX and FP7F should default to medium though).

So the true test is always with sound off.

.

.

Nice posts, Dave.
Sounds like you've done a lot of field work in finding the perfect setup.. Did you come across any other good speakers (less expensive) than your RCFs for DP?

Nice NP recordings, Dave. I wasn't even really considering this board, but it's suddenly on my radar. The ability to swap out voices makes tons of sense.

Unfortunately, they don't move the number of units of these as the Rolands, Yamahas, Korgs, etc. of the musical world, so I imagine Nords don't get discounted much.

Dave - thanks for the info, pretty much what I'm doing myself and I also like the "Wood Room" variant a lot. I find that reducing the send amount is the real key, as it's too strong on almost every factory preset.

Jazzwee - although the FP7-F and RD700NX both have a PHA III keybed, I believe the key construction is different - on the cheaper FP7-F, they're one piece whereas the NX keys have a slightly more sophisticated multi-part construction. I think this was discussed here around the time of the launch of the two keyboards.

Zachary - I have no scientific explanation of why the Rolands seem to do less well in ensemble situations but as Steve said, Yamahas have tended to be historically "brighter" in character (rather than simply EQ'd that way). Though I have to say that the CP1/5/50 range is far less harshly-bright than its predecessors and indeed many of its competitors. Even solo, there were some rooms I found it hard to get my RD700GX to sound good in, even with very careful EQ-ing etc. The CP5, in that respect, is much more "plug and play". Using my own CF preset, I occasionally roll the bass off a bit, or bring down the reverb, but I haven't had to go into long tweaking sessions.

To the OP, although the CP5 has a fairly light action, it might be worth changing the velocity curve to "hard" if you get another chance to audition it. I find this makes the dynamics much easier to control and Yamaha have definitely done something tricksy in the keyboard response to mimic grading to some extent in the software. I miss the grading and the escapement simulation of my GX, but the CP5 keybed is ultra responsive and great for controlling tone as well as volume.

Also, bear in mind that the mantra of "heavier=more realistic" is not totally borne out by reality. Yes, I regularly play acoustics which have a heavier action than my CP5 - but I also come across plenty which are considerably lighter.

Dave - Those Nord recordings sound really good. Wow. That doesn't sound like a keyboard to my ears. Nice playing of course. Which Grand Piano sample is that? Grand Lady D?

Aidan - Yeah, it makes sense what you and Steve said about the Yamahas. When I bought the RD300GX for a light weight gigging board, the first time I gigged with it, I remarked to my bass player how well it was cutting through. He also plays piano, and bought an RD700GXF, so he's aware of the somewhat anemic sound the RDs have live. But then I played 5 hours New Years Eve with a quartet, and I was just not feeling it at all. I tried layering, EQing, and just could not get a solid piano sound to cut through. This is ultimately what has led me to sell the RD700GXF.

So, Zac, what's the next big thing for you? You sounded pretty high on the NP earlier...or are you waiting to see what shakes out from NAMM?

Ok so this furthers the explanation on the price differences. You're talking about the actual key itseelf then, not the mechanics. So the difference in feel may be a different weight of the key?

In any case, I love the keybed feel. It suits me better than the CP5 which was too light. Reminded me my old S90's.

I actually haven't touched an NX yet so the only clue I had to PHAIII was the V piano.

BTW going back to the OP, I really liked the CP5 sound. My only issue was really the lightness of the keys.

Yep, I am going with the Nord. For me, and what I'm doing musically, and what I'm planning for this year (much much much more gigging with my trio) the makes perfect sense. As Essbrace as said, to us, it's best set of compromises. It's got decent to good action, wonderful piano and EPs samples, ultra flexible, and light weight.

That would seem to make sense for you, Zac. You might think about checking the Kawai MP6 and Yamaha CP50 before you spend your money, though.

I'd be tempted by the Nord myself but unfortunately I need controller functions it just doesn't offer. Maybe a new Stage at NAAM will provide the answer?

Yeah, I think the MP6 could be a real sleeper for Kawai. It's light, appears to have great action, and great sounds. I played the CP50, and almost bought it when I had got my RD300GX. The CP50 was clearly better in every category. But the dealer wouldn't come off of the $1600 price, where as I got my 300GX for much less-plus the commonality with having the RD700GXF. But looking back, I shouldn't have bought the 300GX, and saved money, sold my 700GXF then, and bought the Nord when I was really wanting the Nord a couple months ago. Oh well, you know what they say about hindsight...

BTW Aidan, I checked out your site, very very nice playing and very versatile.

Thank you all for your valuable comments!

Dave, thanks for your comment on the RCF 310A. Actually it belongs to the sax player and when I plugged the ES-1 I didn't know if it was the piano or the PA that was bad.
So for the next gig I will get a second RCF and hopefully a new piano sound.

The Nord Piano sounds very good indeed and I would like to try it, but it seems to be hardly possible in my local area.
But I tend to think that its action will not be better than my ES-1.
However I like the concept of the evolutive sound bank.

Regarding the MP-6, it is not available in my local music stores. Indeed, the specs seem appealing, as well as the price!

So for now, I will wait for your review on the MP-6!
And meanwhile I will go for the fifth time in my music store, to compare again CP-5,700NX and also the SV-1 (you have convince me).

Benoît

Yeah but ring the store days before you travel and say youre only interested in the SV1 if they upload Sound pack V2 for you to try. !

And point out they will sell more units if they do!

If I remember this involve first installing the latest operating system In the SV then upload the sound pack - the sounds are then installed in the SV one by one - dont think this can be loaded all in one hit.

Also the Amp sim setting gets ugly above setting 3 or so and the reverb setting is overkill even on setting 1
They better be fixing this in the future.

Thanks, Zac, you're very kind. Bet the new Stage 2 has left you with a bit of a dilemma though

.

Thanks for the tip on the EVs, Dave. Do you go straight from DP to speakers or through a small mixer? Or maybe some extra machinery to get the best sound from your rig? I've been through JBL EON G2 15's and Mackie 450 SRMs without satisfying results. Recently I bought the BA330, it sounds ok but I'm missing the lows. Really surprised to hear that Roland ran their new boards through this at NAMM.

.

On the RD700NX issue I'd expect roland to address this in a software update VERY soon.

Still hesitating between 700NX, CP-5 and Nord Piano...

I have tried many times 700NX and CP-5.
I definitely prefer the 700NX action over the CP.
But it is still very far from a real action.

Some notes of the 700NX have metallic ringings which I dislike, but it sounds rather good.
However what worries me is how it will sound live, and reading the comments on this forum, I'm not very optimistic...
I guess that the metallic ringings that can be heard with AKG 701s headphones may be worse through a PA system.

Today I have tried the Nord Stage EX, which gave me the opportunity to hear the Nord Piano sounds.
And I was very curious to test the action of the Nord, in comparison with 700NX and CP (actually I was expecting the worst).
And finally, the action wasn't as bad as I expected.
Actually, it is better (more heavier) than my Kawai ES1 and I liked the responsiveness.
I haven't compared CP5 and Nord Stage side by side, but the action of the Nord gave me the impression to be heavier than the CP5.

How is the action of the Nord Piano compared to the Nord Stage EX? Is it heavier?

The sounds are good (I tried 2 grand pianos and 2 uprights) and I'm totally convinced by how it sounds recorded
(in the recordings of Dave Ferris, I prefer the sound of the NP over the CP5, it seems more realistic).
Unfortunately while I was trying the Nord, a young boy near me was trying a drum kit.
So I will certainly make another visit.

Here in France, NP is 1900€ , CP5 and 700NX 2400€, so it is cheaper to take the NP.
So I'm about to decide in favor of the NP.

A last question that bothers me.
I play jazz in a quintet.
Dave Ferris didn't like the NP for jazz use.
PianoZac you have made a review of the NP in another thread: what are your impressions regarding jazz playing/jazz feeling with the NP?

Thanks.

Benoît

Hello there,

I'm the guy that made that video showing the NX cut off. Before I get into things, just to let you know I was playing back .WAV in that video, and always have done. That video was made by request for Roland so they could see the issue in action, and as you can tell from the video you don't have to layer anything to get the issue. So imagine how bad it is when you do layer!

Firstly, I'm very annoyed with the issues and have wasted time and money purchasing the NX, it's such a shame because it was PERFECT for me other than this issue. When paying 2K for a keyboard, you DO NOT expect any issues like this, especially from Roland who are meant to be one of the best. After about 3 months of Roland 'looking into' the issue, I have been told by the head technician that it's most likely not going to be fixed as it's a problem with the processor inside (hardware) that can't handle SN pianos. So that's that. No NX for me

I am also a buys solo jazz player, and yes maybe I wouldn't get the problem (as much) if playing with a bassist and drummer in a jazz trio situation... but even the problem happens when it feels like it, sometimes when just playing 3 notes... if you play 3 notes after a long period of playing or something, but never the less, this just should not be happening. What about when I want to play my ragtime/stride/swing styles, it just won't be able to handle it, and when playing in shows for theatre, the piano part can be very complicated and bassically playing block chords with about 5 notes quickly makes this problem happen, so it's just not acceptable at all.

A lot of the time I need to play back audio (backing tracks) .WAV - As It's just me on the keyboard, and I will pre-record all the other instrument parts before hand and play along, and I want to be able to trigger the audio from a foot pedal etc. (like I can do on the NX) and have all this saved as a set up so I can quickly go through sets, and this would work perfectly if it wasn't for the note cut off being even worse. It's bad enough when just playing the piano on its own, so never mind WITH the audio playback.

It really is annoying, as it's a perfect stage piano for me... and it looks like I'm going to have to downgrade to the FP-7F (as people have said the problem doesn't happen on it) I'm going to be loosing countless features, but if it can handle the SN pianos with audio playback, then it seems the only other option for me, as all the RD's can't handle the SN pianos by the sounds of things.

I've been looking into the CP5 after someone suggested it, and it seems I'll be able to do a lot of NX sort of stuff, and assign audio playback to a key, however I think i'd rather have the FP7F as I love the super natural piano sound, and like the idea of the audio key, that will be brilliant for my live shows where I need to quickly trigger tracks/sound effects, However I'm not confident that the issue has gone on the FP...so I'll have to test it out for myself

These problems just shouldn't be here, we shouldn't have to worry about these things when paying what we are for the keyboards... it really is annoying. I currently use a midi controller with an iMac using mainstage, and I can layer/split as much as I want, and play back audio with effects and it doesn't comprimse on polphony etc. It just works the processor harder... so it's a shame a keyboard can't be made like this!

I was looking at the new korg kronos and that looks very good for live shows, but too pricey for me!

I hope this helps people, as I was very frustrated/annoyed with all the time and hassle this NX issue has caused me, and I'm now faced with the time and expense of going back to the music shop to get a refund and try out other pianos, and making sure none of these issues occur.

JT, very sorry to hear of your frustrations. It appears that my initial fears about the problem were correct - namely, Roland is unable to fix the problem as it's down to processor power (or lack thereof) rather than a software issue that could be addressed in a software upgrade.

The concensus here, I gather, is that the FP7F isn't affected by the same issues, though I'm unsure why that should be the case, as it's difficult to imagine Roland using a more powerful processor in a cheaper machine. Maybe it just has to do less. But I can appreciate your caution and I think you do need to check this out in person, given your previous experience.

This kind of underlines the point I was making in an earlier post. A product can tick all the right boxes (nice action, no stretching, no looping etc) and yet still fail badly in other areas to the point that it rules itself out for many.

Those currently slavering over the Kronos based on YouTube videos, take note.

I was waiting for my wife to get off of work yesterday and went right across the street to a Guitar Center and played the RD-700NX and V-Piano extensively. The V-Piano is friggin' incredible as far as a digital reproduction from a purely sound/action connection stand point. The PHA III feels markedly different than the PHA III on the RD-700NX. The NX feels more 'keyboardy' while the V-Piano has a more solid, planted type feel like on a grand. This more than likely has to do with the different chassis, who knows though.

In regards to the NX, it did make me miss my RD-700GXF. The NX action is a major step above my NP88, and the pianos are so pristine, however, it is in fact the imperfections of the NP88 that I like so much. Anyway, I layered 4 grand pianos and oddly enough wasn't experiencing much note stealing. When I did that on my old GXF, it was awful. The NX didn't seem nearly as flawed as my GXF. The key wear to me, isn't a big deal but that's entirely personal. I liked my keys worn down and textured.

I go for the one with seamless dynamic levels (the NX)

This is in fact a incredible statement from Roland ...do you have it in writing ?

Because if you do it kind of destroys the NX completely.

I wouldn't say completely but if it is the case it's gonna cost them quite a bit of cash.

I was thinking about the fp7f but im extremely hesitant because of this baned issue that seems to be popping up.

I know If I coughed up the cash for one of those and it failed me id be pissed.

I'm with you on that one, however if it's any consolation, I've tested an rd700nx here at guitar center, and trying everything humanly possible, I wasn't able to reproduce the issue. I tried the exact chords and speed in the youtube video with all pianos all settings, wet/dry, pedal/no pedal. I would just make sure you buy one somewhere with an easy return in case it has the issue. Guitar center here takes it back no matter what within 30 days.

If I was already past that 30 days and found out I had an issue I would demand roland replace the whole instrument for me, since I know there are some that don't have the issue. That is defective, and if you spend thousands of dollars on it you should get one that works. :-/

I've got the BA-330 myself, and it is not suited for keyboards at all. It's really a bad speaker for that use. The base and the high notes are really bad using this PA.

I just sold mine. I'm sticking with my comment that it sounds ok, though. 4 x 6'5 works for mids to highs, but like I said - it's missing the lows. I got the best result when placing it on a chair with all eq knobs and volume set at one o'clock.