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#1595959 - 01/12/11 10:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
I have the opposite problem. I've spent so much of my time on solo piano that it comes much easier to me than combo. It's a different kind of playing though since it's mosty two handed voicings.

The difficulty for me in solo jazz playing is implying the rhythm at all times. I don't particularly like too much rubato playing so I don't do that. But if it's not a ballad, I can't always imply a good groove. Something I've got to improve on.

I tend to play it more like classical. More play on dynamics and such. Teacher's influence

I have a solo piano gig on Sunday. Formal event. Cocktail hour playing.
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#1595973 - 01/12/11 10:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I also see he used Fsus7 F7 instead of Cm7 F7. Pretty typical sub.


Yes, but really I should have put the bass line in also, because the Standard Trio's greatness does depend all their independent voices playing together, and their interplay is amazing.
PDF with the first 16 bars again, this time with bass Check out how they interplay.

For those of you interested, here's the midi file (from Finale)
N.B: this will sound with straight 8's unless you can change your 'swing' setting.

Audio rendered within Finale (yes Finale has cheesy sounds, yes I have access to a horrendous amount of sample libraries, but I prefer the internal sounds whilst working in Finale, it focuses my mind on the content and not the groovy sounds of my 30 Gb piano) smile



You're quite a resource here. Very nice! Thanks!

So actually that Cm7 was just a Fourths voicing now. Listening to Finale made be realize that he syncopated the melody. That wasn't that obvious to me just reading the score.

Lot's of work transcribing here...

Listening to it emphasized the fact the voicings themselves weren't too unusual.

Talking about solo piano, at one of our jams, the pianist played a very complex solo piano intro to Stella before going into combo. I noticed a lot of players do this so it's something I'd like to do too.
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#1595994 - 01/12/11 11:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta


Scott, I didn't realize there was more music on your site. I just discovered that I had to scroll down smile

Listening to My Favorite things. This is solo piano and you have a good sense of time because the pulse didn't disappear for a millisecond. That was excellent.

You're right about the expectations of technique in Jazz. And maybe because Monk got away with purposely playing with his typical rough style that that has been an approach by many although I think it's also an excuse for some.

I think the newer Jazz pianists are collectively more like "pianists" than "piano players" now. Maybe it's because most had Classical training. I myself have only been playing piano for 6 years so there's still technique building needed. But I'm always sensitive to thinking about the technique aspect as a goal.

I understand completely what Chris is talking about because my teacher plays with a touch that fits that exact mode he describes. His LH is buttery and his RH always has an intentional tone that makes the melody or solo line sing. It's really a fantastic goal to work on. Sometimes as jazzers, we seek the fast playing stuff. But the nice tone on the solo is the other aspect that's equally satisfying.


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#1596385 - 01/12/11 10:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I have the opposite problem. I've spent so much of my time on solo piano that it comes much easier to me than combo. It's a different kind of playing though since it's mosty two handed voicings.

The difficulty for me in solo jazz playing is implying the rhythm at all times. I don't particularly like too much rubato playing so I don't do that. But if it's not a ballad, I can't always imply a good groove. Something I've got to improve on.

I tend to play it more like classical. More play on dynamics and such. Teacher's influence

I have a solo piano gig on Sunday. Formal event. Cocktail hour playing.



Hey, why not post some solo stuff for us here? I don't recall any solo piano that you've done. Did I miss it?

And on another topic: Does anyone here play Beatrice? If so, has anyone seen the chart that has the Em A7 to Dmaj in it? I'm wondering because I've never played it with a Dmaj7 anywhere in the tune, but this guy I recently played with has this. I've listened to the original recording (Fuchsia Swing album) and I don't believe there is a Dmaj in there. I can't say that I don't like it, but was just wondering where this chord may have come from. Link to clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMIiTW59Co


Edited by scepticalforumguy (01/13/11 01:00 AM)
Edit Reason: I can't spell properly.
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#1596414 - 01/12/11 11:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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I've posted a lot of things playing solo but I wouldn't call it solo piano style. Most of what I posted was with an imagined rhythm section. Nef would be a nice challenge. It's hard for me to keep a groove going on that.

I don't know Beatrice, but for some reason I recollect Chris Bell playing that. But I may be confusing some other female names for tunes.

It would be great if somehow all tried to play some common tunes so we can share in the ideas. We can give a shot at Blue Monk too, now that Scott has that as a contribution to the fray. I don't want to give up on the Blues idea because that's actually hard for me.

Hey I don't mind the challenges but don't leave me to do it alone because then it's boring. If I'm going to screw up, it's best to do it alone smile

I'll start posting a recording soon. Maybe another stab at Stella tomorrow.
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#1596419 - 01/12/11 11:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

And on another topic: Does anyone here play Beatrice? If so, has anyone seen the chart that has the Em A7 to Dmaj in it? I'm wondering because I've never played it with a Dmaj7 anywhere in the tune, but this guy I recently played with has this. I've listened to the original recording (Fucsia Swing album) and I don't believe there is a Dmaj in there. I can't say that I don't like it, but was just wondering where this chord may have come from. Link to clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMIiTW59Co


Very nice tune. Looks easy enough to learn.
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#1596451 - 01/13/11 12:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Mike A Offline
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Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 521
Loc: So.Cal.USA
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Does anyone here play Beatrice? If so, has anyone seen the chart that has the Em A7 to Dmaj in it? I'm wondering because I've never played it with a Dmaj7 anywhere in the tune, but this guy I recently played with has this. I've listened to the original recording (Fucsia Swing album) and I don't believe there is a Dmaj in there. I can't say that I don't like it, but was just wondering where this chord may have come from. Link to clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMIiTW59Co


I've seen that chart, but have never played it with a Dmaj7. It is there on that recording, though, in passing to Dm, at 0:38-0:39. You can hear the movement from F# to F-nat. The Dmaj7 lasts for only about 0.5sec.

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#1596453 - 01/13/11 12:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

And on another topic: Does anyone here play Beatrice? If so, has anyone seen the chart that has the Em A7 to Dmaj in it? I'm wondering because I've never played it with a Dmaj7 anywhere in the tune, but this guy I recently played with has this. I've listened to the original recording (Fucsia Swing album) and I don't believe there is a Dmaj in there. I can't say that I don't like it, but was just wondering where this chord may have come from. Link to clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxMIiTW59Co


Very nice tune. Looks easy enough to learn.


You'd be surprised. Listen to the clip again. If you know the changes, you'll also hear that Jaki Byard doesn't know them too well. I imagine this might have been a case where the composer (Sam Rivers) maybe wanted to record this piece and put it in front of the players at the session? I really don't know, but to me it sounds like but Byard is just soloing over the changes Fmaj/Gb+4, Dmin/Ebmaj and Amin/Bbmaj in ways that don't lead to each other very well, but Sam has obviously blown over the changes a few times so makes things make real sense.

But yes, it seems like a pretty straight forward tune when you looks at it initially.

You're also right about Chris playing this (and quite well too). I believe he actually may have played the Dmaj chord that I'm talking about too, that's what made me think that there might be another version that Sam recorded that I haven't heard that has that chord in there.


Edited by scepticalforumguy (01/13/11 01:14 AM)
Edit Reason: clarified what 'soloing' rather than 'played the changes'
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#1596458 - 01/13/11 12:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Mike A]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Mike A


I've seen that chart, but have never played it with a Dmaj7. It is there on that recording, though, in passing to Dm, at 0:38-0:39. You can hear the movement from F# to F-nat. The Dmaj7 lasts for only about 0.5sec.


Ya, but it's not used by the soloists at any time is it? I thought I heard a passing note in that sequence at :39 too, but on the second time in the head and on the head going out and the rest of the Sam's solos there is a Dsus or Dmin there, except for one time at 2:12 again.

I do like the Dmaj though it gives it a really different colour than what you'd expect to hear there.
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#1596461 - 01/13/11 01:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Yes Jaki was outlining the chords. I was following the changes in my head and it has a Blue in Green quality to it. Are you challenging me scep?

I don't know this tune at all. But I think I can figure it out (if I can remember the melody smile ).
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#1596462 - 01/13/11 01:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Hey I don't mind the challenges but don't leave me to do it alone because then it's boring. If I'm going to screw up, it's best to do it alone smile

Huh? Do want company or don't you? Or are you suggesting that you will screw up if we don't play it with you? Or...?

In any case, I'm game for doing some tunes together. I'm still looking into BiG, Stella and I'd actually like to hear other people play Beatrice just because I've been wondering if anyone would come up with different voicings for solo piano than I would.


Also, JW, I do now remember your 'solo' recordings, but they don't count because as you said you were playing with an imagined rhythm section. So, I'd like to hear the stuff you'd do for your Sunday gig. Bring along your H4 and record yourself.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1596465 - 01/13/11 01:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Yes Jaki was outlining the chords. I was following the changes in my head and it has a Blue in Green quality to it. Are you challenging me scep?


Of course I am.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1596467 - 01/13/11 01:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Sunday gig? -- no, I'm not going to record that. Fortunately it's not exposed playing. But it's an awfully regulated Steinway. I'd probably have tendonitis after. And I'm lucky if they tuned it since last time.

OK so we have a lot of stuff to work on. Great.

Did you change the words on my post? I thought I wrote it "was best to do it as a group". That was weird...
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#1596469 - 01/13/11 01:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Yes Jaki was outlining the chords. I was following the changes in my head and it has a Blue in Green quality to it. Are you challenging me scep?


Of course I am.


The gauntlet is dropped...
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#1596472 - 01/13/11 01:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


OK so we have a lot of cows to work on. Great.

Did you change the words on my post? I thought I wrote it "was best to do it as a group". That was weird...


That's pretty funny. No, I didn't change your post last time. I may have put the word 'cows' in this time though.
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1596494 - 01/13/11 02:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Hey Scep, it's these challenges that make me learn so I tend to go for the more difficult tunes and less on the 'How High the Moon' stuff. So if I like it, I will have a tendency to stick with it for awhile like I have with Nef and Giant Steps.

I've worked on something similar to this. The chromatic movements remind me of Along Came Betty (Benny Golson)



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#1596556 - 01/13/11 06:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1377
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

You're also right about Chris playing this (and quite well too).

Thanks.

Quote:

I believe he actually may have played the Dmaj chord that I'm talking about too, that's what made me think that there might be another version that Sam recorded that I haven't heard that has that chord in there.

Oh no no no no! laugh
Never a Dmaj7 there. (now suddenly not so sure, goes and listens to his own playing . . )
Oh. I did. Sorry. blush
So first time through I played a F# C (D7) going from E7 (instead of the Em7(b5) to A7 to D7 (something I picked up from KJ.
Second through the melody I play a . . . Dmaj7. Oh well, just shows you.

but for the record, I don't approve of that chord there, I feel it kills the tune and I promise I will never play a Dmaj7 there again. smile


Edited by chrisbell (01/13/11 06:23 AM)
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#1596560 - 01/13/11 06:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1377
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
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I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#1596701 - 01/13/11 12:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Moving this forward (from the archives) so we can find it in a related area.

Beatrice - Chris Bell Trio
http://www.box.net/shared/b69rgvsjzi

That was so well done BTW Chris. I remembered you playing this because I made a mental note that this was a good tune to learn.


Edited by jazzwee (01/13/11 12:44 PM)
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#1596715 - 01/13/11 12:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
I just uploaded two videos of Stella I made this morning. (see below)
The first is just the head. I've been trying out some block chords and a rubato approach. Not sure if I like it though.

The second video is just improv. I've been trying to incorporate triad pairs in my lines. It holds together pretty well for about a minute and then I lose it. Oh well!

Beatrice is a nice tune. I used to play it with the Ron Baxter 4tet. I'll get into again and see what I can come up with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii3kFhKHsjs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAth95U0jCY

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#1596721 - 01/13/11 01:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Wow Scott, we can't beat a video. That's commitment thumb

However, please check as the links don't work. It asks me to login.
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#1596738 - 01/13/11 01:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
I just uploaded two videos of Stella I made this morning. (see below)
The first is just the head. I've been trying out some block chords and a rubato approach. Not sure if I like it though.

The second video is just improv. I've been trying to incorporate triad pairs in my lines. It holds together pretty well for about a minute and then I lose it. Oh well!

Beatrice is a nice tune. I used to play it with the Ron Baxter 4tet. I'll get into again and see what I can come up with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii3kFhKHsjs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAth95U0jCY


Oops... had it set up wrong. The links should work now.

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#1596747 - 01/13/11 02:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Excellent Scott! First of all the camera angle is fantastic for studying your voicings. The solo intro had lots of great ideas there. I'll have to watch a few times more. There were many interesting voicings there.

Your improv was wonderful. Very intervallic style which I like a lot. I'll probably have more comments as I watch it a few times. It's really different when using video.

Don't worry about having a finished product type of recording. That's not for this thread. We're into one take with all the flubs smile

How did you record this BTW? I can see the little tripod.
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#1596771 - 01/13/11 02:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Thanks jazzwee! Let me know if you have any questions about anything I'm playing.

Here's a picture of how I setup the camcorder. It's pretty ugly!

http://www.box.net/shared/bbf13ri96a

I already had the webcam attached to the music stand to test out teaching over Skype. Then I just leaned the camcorder over and balanced it there! I had to use movie maker to flip the image around the right way. Hopefully I'll figure out something better sometime.

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#1596776 - 01/13/11 02:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
jazzwee Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Thanks jazzwee! Let me know if you have any questions about anything I'm playing.

Here's a picture of how I setup the camcorder. It's pretty ugly!

http://www.box.net/shared/bbf13ri96a

I already had the webcam attached to the music stand to test out teaching over Skype. Then I just leaned the camcorder over and balanced it there! I had to use movie maker to flip the image around the right way. Hopefully I'll figure out something better sometime.



OMG! That's pretty complex. I knew it couldn't be that easy.

Yeah I was analyzing the beginning portion and you had some voicing for the A7 that appeared to have both an 11 and a #11. the #11 being the bottom note. That was interesting.

Then at first I was confused with the Cm7 in bar 4, but then I realized you immediately went to F7b9 which changed the sound.

This tune is really neat because there's so much you can do.

I have to go slowly as the stuff moves very quickly. You have a very adept LH btw with those arpeggios on E-m7b5.
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#1596796 - 01/13/11 03:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
knotty Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 3001
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Thanks jazzwee! Let me know if you have any questions about anything I'm playing.

Here's a picture of how I setup the camcorder. It's pretty ugly!

http://www.box.net/shared/bbf13ri96a

I already had the webcam attached to the music stand to test out teaching over Skype. Then I just leaned the camcorder over and balanced it there! I had to use movie maker to flip the image around the right way. Hopefully I'll figure out something better sometime.



that's somethin' else!!

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#1596832 - 01/13/11 04:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Yeah I was analyzing the beginning portion and you had some voicing for the A7 that appeared to have both an 11 and a #11. the #11 being the bottom note. That was interesting.

Then at first I was confused with the Cm7 in bar 4, but then I realized you immediately went to F7b9 which changed the sound.

This tune is really neat because there's so much you can do.

I have to go slowly as the stuff moves very quickly. You have a very adept LH btw with those arpeggios on E-m7b5.




Are you looking at the head? I think we must be understanding the changes differently because I'm not sure what A7 with an 11 and #11 you're looking at confused Also not sure about the left hand Em7b5...maybe if you give me the times on the video I can clarify?

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#1596845 - 01/13/11 04:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta

I used to practice alot with the metronome and found that even though I could stay with it overall, I was missing the pocket.... Professor Ron Carter (not the famous bass player) taught me the concept of doodle tonguing, which really helps with getting the feel.


Scott, I'm not sure how doodle tonguing helped you on the piano. You really ought to have some sort of key coatings for that, otherwise it'll start to develop mold between the keys.

But seriously, since doodle tonguing (as I understand it) is saying "Da dle, di dle, do dle instead of ta ta ta ta ta ta " while playing to articulate notes faster on wind instruments, I'm not sure how you benefited from this. Was it the idea of 'Da' being strong and 'dle' being weak? Or?
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#1596888 - 01/13/11 05:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Scott, I'm not sure how doodle tonguing helped you on the piano. You really ought to have some sort of key coatings for that, otherwise it'll start to develop mold between the keys.

But seriously, since doodle tonguing (as I understand it) is saying "Da dle, di dle, do dle instead of ta ta ta ta ta ta " while playing to articulate notes faster on wind instruments, I'm not sure how you benefited from this. Was it the idea of 'Da' being strong and 'dle' being weak? Or?


Very funny laugh. Yeah, it is mostly for wind instruments but it does help get the feel of how things get articulated... weak, strong, long, short, etc. I was particularly enlightened by the triplet subdivision. Here's the overview of the approach:

http://www.box.net/shared/pltff0yaae

In the explanation it says "doo-od-le" but in practice it really sounds more like "doo-duh-luh". It has to roll smoothly. I've learned to hear that in my mind and feel it when I'm playing swing and it helps me lock into the groove.

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#1596895 - 01/13/11 06:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7146
Loc: So. California
Scott it was the first two chords. It seemed like some extra figure that you used again later so it seemed to be an insert in the regular changes. On one the bottom note was Eb and then I saw a D up higher.

Since the first two chords are E-7b5 A7b9, I just figured it was a voicing for that.

BTW - I just stepped to the piano for a moment and your voicing ideas gave me ideas for myself on how to spread out some of those chords.
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