I was hoping for something other than the BLACK KEY etude for very obvious reasons. :P Most people play the black keys exactly as you play in the video. What you just showed us is a very common way of playing the piano's black keys.

It would be interesting if you played the white keys like this too. Do you strike the white keys more towards the middle then? If not, does your thumb hang out of the keyboard for most of the time when it is not used? (that's a logical conclusion if your answer to the first part is a no, I hope you see that).

Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqwVxTKtoQ&feature=BF&list=UL5IobBG8UNFs&index=24

Way too many of those upward "relaxation" movements in this. Too much pressing and too much wobbling about instead of stabilising into the taut chain. One or two moments give a reasonable illustration of the idea but generally the arms are working too hard and the fingers are rarely stable enough- with many wobbles after the strike.

I don't use extreme flat fingers as the norm (if you're talking about complete collapse in the knuckles)- but they're usually on the pads and rarely on the tips.

Ok, I expected to see Horowitz-like fingers but didn't see that. I do understand though that you don't play with your finger tips. However, I wouldn't play with the tips for that particular piece either (for different reasons). In any case, your thumb does hang out most of the time its not used and I was right about that. Not that its a problem, just stating that I visualized it right. So you play with more flesh than most people but your fingers really are curved enough. I don't call those flat fingers. So though you talk of a huge difference between this and curved fingers, and all those specifics about friction, I think there is no big difference between the curvature of your fingers and the curvature of people who use "curved" fingers.

I was wondering how you managed to play so well after saying so many things that didn't make too much sense (whether due to communication problems or not). Now I know that you don't play too differently, you just speak of it as though it were highly different from anything anybody's seen ever before.

Sure- everyone's definition is different. I just don't like playing on the tips very much. As long as the finger can pull without sliding, I'm happy with the stability I can get. I do use very extreme flat fingers for loud chords sometimes though.

What you see in that film is nothing unusual- but I'm not claiming to describe anything unusual. I believe it's the norm for what advanced pianists do in fast passages.


However, many of the most normal things I believe are the faults in that. Although the arms don't press very often (in the sense of digging fingers against the keybed), it's these slight follow-throughs that leave the arm being held up against collapse- when I could have got far more sound if the upper arm released and pulled the wrist into alignment. This is especially notable in the coda. The fingers don't have much counterforce to pull against, once I lose the taut chain. I'm working on achieving more stability both with more stable finger actions and more pull coming from release of the upper arm. There's far too much flailing around. I have no intention of stiffening my wrist to prevent that (despite kbk's genius advice), so the reactio forces need to be absorbed better by tightening up the chain with greater release.

N., I think I understand what you mean by flat. It's less a bend on the distal joint. But there is still angle of the fingers to the keys. So the knuckle is the joint doing the inward pull. This part seems to be direct from Fraser.

Now for the pull to actually occur, it seems the wrist has to collapse. You would play lower instead of from above. I tried this and that's the only way I could consistently feel a pull. Am I right here?

Another point. It seems like the feeling of a pull is cancelled out if you play close to the keyboard and your elbows are level with the keys. So again, it seems to imply playing lower ala Gould. Or moving out a little.

Finally, there's the issue of doing this incorrectly and causing worse problems. I'm talking about someone trying to feel the pull by actually using the muscles to pull down, instead of relaxing the elbow/arm. If so, more weight is added to the fingers. And at that point, the flexors will be very active.

Because of the above, it's not that easy to keep thinking of the relaxing of the arm when busy playing. If one relies on the feeling of a "pull", it could come from an actual exertion. So it looks like it has to be extensively practiced to memorize the feel.

May I note that my interest in this is that I've heard this before from someone else (knuckle playing as it was called). And this helps me with the understanding. The explanation here is a little different so it clarifies what I didn't understand originally.

liszt85 -- I can't disappear for 5 minutes without a hundred posts following so it's hard to keep track

All I can tell you is this. Can anyone play fortissimo without a stiffening of the structure so that the force comes from the shoulder?

If so then we're outside the realm of this discussion since this is about releasing the arm/elbow. LOL.

EDIT - unless you play from height, which is also outside this discussion of keeping fingers on the keys.

Yes, contract.

Well, I'm definitely finished in his thread. N. is gripping the keys (what I teach beginners after a week or two of scratching). There really is no debate for me! Why it took 13 pages for him to make that clear is beyond me. I have always said there are two species of pianists - those who poke from the knuckle and those who grip with an inward motion (whether visible or not). In my book the latter are far more sensitive as the tone decisions are made at the finger tip where all the nerves are, not at the knuckle. It's how Chopin played. Its also interestingly enough, what Suzuki teaches. I'm open for PM's.

Nyiregyhazi,
What's up with the thumb hanging off the keyboard and what's with the "delayed" repeated notes (and their inability to fall on the beat) and all this excessive movement "needed" to play them? I stopped listening after about 3 1/2 minutes, because I heard all I needed to hear. Very fine playing, but at times it sounds tentative and that's because it's too full of what I call "sugar-fat". The inner singer we hear is clearly on a different page.

What do you mean by sugar fat exactly??

Now for the pull to actually occur, it seems the wrist has to collapse. You would play lower instead of from above. I tried this and that's the only way I could consistently feel a pull. Am I right here?

When the fingers are fully working and there's enough release in the upper arm, it's possible to release entirely on even one note- but especially when supported by 2 or more. My wrist stays completely aligned almost all the time- well in what I'm aiming for, but having it rise is more the problem in what I'm still working at resolving. Stool heights may be an issue though. I suspect a high stool could make sagging wrists harder to avoid. Also, when playing slower you could always add a fraction of localised support if desired- although I'd aim to reduce it more and more over time and get the fingers supporting more. Also, the faster you go, the more release you need, I believe.

Another point. It seems like the feeling of a pull is cancelled out if you play close to the keyboard and your elbows are level with the keys. So again, it seems to imply playing lower ala Gould. Or moving out a little.

I've found it's doable from various heights. However, higher positions limit the pull from the released upper arm. It strikes me that this make them more likely to depend on more pushing- whereas lower positions give plenty of resistance. I'd think more Horowitz than Gould though. And I suppose that a slightly higher stool might also be an easier starting point to prepare the hand, before going lower once it becomes too limiting.

Finally, there's the issue of doing this incorrectly and causing worse problems. I'm talking about someone trying to feel the pull by actually using the muscles to pull down, instead of relaxing the elbow/arm. If so, more weight is added to the fingers. And at that point, the flexors will be very active.



It's always possible. However I think this is actually far safer than any pushing into reaction forces. That is a very coarse movement that is hard to do efficiently. It makes digging into the keys all too easy. Simply releasing (rather than intending to apply the force of gravity, which risks a lot of pushing to get weight over the top of the fingers) doesn't strike me as likely to cause any burden. I think the problem with some armweight descriptions is when they prejudice you towards believing it's supposed to act down heavily through keys- so you push to make that happen. When you actually release for real, the force is low. I'm preparing various awareness exercises to build the means by which someone can teach themself to perceive all of the most important elements- as well as how they fit together.


If one relies on the feeling of a "pull", it could come from an actual exertion. So it looks like it has to be extensively practiced to memorize the feel.

Considering the direction, that would likely pull them off the keyboard if they overdo it- unless they also push. I certainly intend to make it clear that the fingers move the keys and that the "pull" is merely from release. The exercise in this thread reveals how low the balancing force should be for a released arm. I think this is far safer than the pushing or holding that the overwhelming majority of pianists use from day 1, without realising they even do it. However, I certainly want to take care about how I phrase things. While what is involved is already very clear in my mind, showing others how to perceive it for themself is obviously very important.

Well, I'm definitely finished in his thread. N. is gripping the keys (what I teach beginners after a week or two of scratching). There really is no debate for me! Why it took 13 pages for him to make that clear is beyond me.

????

Did you think what was supposed to be some kind of secret? What were you expecting? My hands to be turned upside down? I didn't say there's anything terribly radical about the finger action. It's the means of using a passive arm (instead of the tense wrist you advise) that is significant- particularly in terms of which forces you need to feel the balance from if you want stability without seizure. The whole premise is based upon understanding how to relate arm to hand and vice versa. Nothing about the final product is supposed to be remotely unusual. It's just a means of understanding what goes into it in a specific fashion, rather than leaving it as a mystery for each pianist to try and let their subconscious puzzle out.

The problem with standard finger actions is not that they are very difficult in themself. The difficulty is in keeping the arm relaxed while using them and in making sure you stay in a stable point on the key. If you don't use the chain state of balance, it's really very difficult for a finger to get on with its natural action- often causing far more complex and less efficient ones to emerge.


In my book the latter are far more sensitive as the tone decisions are made at the finger tip where all the nerves are, not at the knuckle.

I sort of agree. The flatter pad has plenty of sensitivity. However, it's almost entirely the knuckle that produces movement in most cases. That's why the movements are very slight to look at. Closer joints would have to move through a far wider angle to achieve the depression. The knuckle is what provides most of it- and it certainly is not a "poke" or a "scratch". I cannot think of less inappropriate terms for the simple "pull" that is felt. People "poke" with a thrust of their arms or perhaps with a straightening of the finger. While i play from the knuckle, that term is not remotely accurate. And for that matter, "grip" is strongest when done from the knuckle. i certainly don't "grip" 15 kg dumbells with the two flimsy joints at the end of my finger.

I "grip" but not in the sense you refer to it. I find your descriptions extremely confusing and misrepresentative of what they supposedly refer to.

Looking at your videos though N., it seems it is hard to maintain this state since you yourself are not consistently in it.

Well, I'm more of the old-school approach- although the opening of that in particular leaves much to be desired. Quite honestly, I hate the "simple" approach to those repeated notes- favouring the greater freedoms employed by pianists like Cortot and Hofman. I certainly need to vary the rubatos more though.

Sure. Definitely easier all the way though. The more of the old habits I remove, the easier it feels and the freer the elbow and wrist are becoming. It was only after I filmed myself in that Ballade that I realised how much excess movement was there from before. In the past it was a far greater ordeal. You can see the greater effort and poor stability in all of my old videos- including very bad wrist alignment in the right hand.

Also, there's at least as much bobbling in some of the older videos- when I was pressing. Although I still need to eradicate it, I'm far happier with what this state is enabling me to remove with release, than what I formerly had to attempt with added pressure. I'm planning on filming the Liszt sonata sometime fairly soon. It should be interesting to see how much movement remains.

Thanks for the reply. I would say your opening doesn't exactly "leave much to be desired", but yes, it could use some work (of which it seems you'd be capable). There's nothing wrong with employing "freedoms" as you say with those notes, but you don't necessarily have to go "outside the box" to do so. You have the skill to play them musically without resorting to too great an aberration. I would like to hear you vary your rubatos more and there's a few spots I'd like to hear a bit more dynamic contrast (but then I realise this wasn't really a "performance"). When I said I didn't listen longer than 3 1/2 minutes, because I didn't need to hear more, I simply meant that I've heard the piece played in every various manner seemingly possible more than enough times (i.e. I basically knew what lie ahead...just so you know that it wasn't an insult). I don't think you NEED any of the things I mentioned with this work, because you're musically sound enough not to need any of that to make it work. There have been a few instances where members have posted recordings and I've wished I could jump through the screen and begin a session...this is one of them.

That's fine- your honest thoughts are more than welcome. I actually find those repeated notes in the melody to be one of the hardest things in the piece. It's very hard to be neither bland nor excessively formulaic. I don't think anyone manages it better than Cortot.

Also, it's interesting that two of you mentioned the thumb hanging off the keyboard. It's not a conscious thing, but certainly something that I'll have a think about. I have a feeling that i need to do this fairly often to avoid having to play on the extreme tips. However, it's certainly something that strikes me as worth paying more attention to- to see if there are necessarily any positives or whether it's just a habit that might actually be getting in the way.

Well, if it's something that works for you then fine, but I agree that it's something you may want to take a closer look at. I have the feeling that you often are a little TOO worried about the physics of playing rather than just letting go and doing it. I don't know, because I haven't seen/heard enough...just a thought.
I also agree that those repeated notes are among the most difficult aspects of the piece to pull off convincingly.

The state of just "feeling" the movement and just worrying about sound is exactly what I want in the end. It's just that my old habits were geared towards pressing so strongly that, if I just think about the sound I want, all kinds of problems kick in. This in an example before I'd thought about this "chain" idea, with regard to the pull of the released upper arm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiNzqGR1Avk

I'm not exactly appalled by the results as far as the sound goes, but there's much about the movement that clearly ought to be improved. My instincts were all based around the "push", without any proper use of the pull to align the wrist or give the fingers a chance to properly contribute to "squeezing" the sound out. Just a couple of years ago, the pressing was so severe that any Chopin Etude was a pure ordeal and I had so little control over anything like Beethoven that I could barely endure the either the sound or physical feel of myself playing it. Find how easy it is to get the wrist to align itself (when the fingers stabilise balance in direct relation to the released arm) has been a revelation.

To be honest, most of what I've discovered from physics I'm now treating purely in terms of movement now. However, I do think it's useful to run over some of the simplest premises in physics alongside explanations of the movements- otherwise many parts of this approach might appear self-contradictory upon the surface. Understanding a simple model of forces makes it far easier to grasp what is to be perceived- and then just keep it to perception. Also, without understanding the equal and opposite reaction, a lot of people would be skeptical if I say to use the finger to pull on the arm as much as the key. However, a little basic physics shows that there's no other way to pull from a finger than to pull at the arm too- and that if you think it has no consequences on the arm you are very likely to be making the arm stiff (unless you have aquired the taut chain state).

About the thumbs off the keyboard. I intermittently "lapse" into that, to my teacher's horror.. But he could never explain the rationale.. Any of you know?

Actually, I have a student who has a severe problem with this. It's definitely worthy of consideration- I simply hadn't realised it was very notable in my own playing. It does weaken the other fingers. Alan Fraser talks a lot about how the knuckles cannot physically collapse if you use the thumb in the right way. It can actually be a massive aid to trilling with 4-5 to simply feel the open space between the thumb and 2nd, with a touch of grip. However, I think it depends on the situation.

Did you notice that I had predicted it (thumb hanging out) even before I saw that video, based on what you said about your approach? So you know where to look for the answer..

For the student? Actually the approach is very much based on the gripping action that stabilises the thumb when it serves a purpose- which is most of the time. A simple grasping action is the fix for that and that's exactly what I have been showing him.

What I'm interested in considering is whether I'm slipping into the occasional releasing thumb for a purpose, or whether I'm simply failing to maintain the thumb's usual support out of negligence and losing something.

Been experimenting with the thumb thing today. In order to get properly behind my fifth finger, so it can pull at the key in a very direct path, I need to allow my thumb to be drawn slightly backwards. Otherwise the 5th tends to collapse onto its side and is very poorly aligned to act upon the key. At this angle it easily becomes necessary to press through a stiffened hand, rather act from the knuckle of the fifth.

Here's an extreme example of 5th finger alignment, where the knuckle is fully involved- from an old blog post:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JPKA_SpfKoI/TPbWxe9a_AI/AAAAAAAAABE/ZXIiUAiA8UU/s1600/01122010%2528002%2529.jpg

Here's some very bad alignment (I pressed through my 5ths like this for many years and they had truly pathetic knuckles that could barely create any pull whatsoever)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JPKA_SpfKoI/TPbWJG6dAQI/AAAAAAAAAA8/5y0NhPgcNFU/s1600/01122010%2528004%2529.jpg

When doing the aligned fifth finger, it's certainly not necessary to lose the stabilisation from the thumb, however- which I definitely wouldn't encourage. As long as you keep the minute sense of gripping from thumb to palm, it makes little difference whether the thumb is immediately over the keys or not. Allowing the thumb to be casually withdrawn (especially when coupled with collapse of shape) is not something I'd ever encourage in many contexts- quite the reverse. However, I find it preferable when playing isolated bass notes (rather than when moving between a series of various notes in one position) to use a very extreme alignment on the fifth finger side- although, as I say, the thumb can and should still be very much involved in contributing to the stability of the knuckles.

I'm wondering how one would manage to use that "correct" fifth finger alignment in a fast passage that involves playing fifths (thumb and fifth) one after the other in the fast sequence of notes without creating accented sounds as you turn the wrists..

Actually, I tried, its possible. I tried exactly that for the Chopin Op 25, No 2. It offers better legato with that added wrist support. So I do use a fifth finger alignment that approached the "right" alignment that you speak of. However, my thumb doesn't go out of the keyboard. I suspect you are moving your elbow outwards too much (like Shirley (music32) does in her videos, her thumb doesn't go out of the keyboard though, you must be doing something funny there). If you did that in moderation and used the wrist more, your thumb shouldn't go out.. I'm not sure, try it.

It depends on context, I think. In some cases the arm simply responds freely to the finger- so the arm is drawn some way towards the natural fifth finger alignment as the finger acts, but may not have time to go right into it (especially from 1-5). I find that fine, as long as the arm doesn't press through the finger to replace its action and fight against the reaction force. At other times the arm prepares for the fifth finger in it's most direct natural alignment for the key and the finger acts from there in the first place. Here, if the thumb is not needed within the near future, I have no problem with it not being on the keys- as long as it provides the slight inward action that gives the knuckles structure. I'd rather focus on getting the fifth working properly than feel the thumb has to be on keys it will never play.

I've been noticing these things while practising and I've definitely realised that there are a few places where my thumb is releasing too much and straightening. However, in op. 10 no. it's definitely better to let it come slightly away from the keyboard- as long as its action still feels inwards and it's the lateral movement of the arm that sends it there. If I don't do that, the movement is cramped up and stuck. However, I have noticed that there are some spots where my thumb sometimes flicks itself outwards (rather than help to maintain the knuckles) and that's definitely something I'll pay attention to.

By the way in rapid stuff, it is often far less about using the arm to align for the 5th but simply keeping the arm free to respond. One of the most notable thing about the taut chain is that the arm effectively lines itself up around every transition from finger to finger. In op. 10 no. 1 the movement is so great that the arm needs to provide much of the lateral motion, of course- especially for the thumb. However, when going from 4-5 it's remarkable to see how much the arm is helped out. The better the finger actions and the looser the elbow and wrist, the more the arm is drawn across. On the nasty bar that has C-F with 4-5, I find that the arm scarcely does anything to line behind the 5th. The pull of the finger sends it in alignment behind my fifth in a split second- giving the thumb a massive head start in coming across.