Not necessarily so.In many cases, especially when tuning grand pianos, one of the things to retain stability in tuning is to take out the “charge” or “twist” created by moving the tuning pin from its originally found position and leaving it in another place or position. This is done by nudging/ bumping the tuning hammer back and forth in minute increments at times also……

To equalize the tension between string section this is done with sharp blows to the keyboard resulting in sharp strikes to the wire section; usually this releases the wire from friction points much like flicking the garden hose when caught on a rock.....

Take the Estonia I tuned a couple of months back. It had duplex scaling where a lot of wire was trapped in the duplex area. Several tuners had tuned this instrument over a period of months and the instrument still would not remain in tune. When I attended the situation I realized that this piano had been tuned by sustain rather than the attack.

How to release all of the pent up energy stored behind the bridgework?

Moving the tuning hammer back and forth does not cut it at all……nothing changes…….I have to get that wire to move and if not by pounding the key set and bouncing the wire around then by hand with a string lifter……

So I attacked the keyboard vigorously pounding on the key set as I pulled the tuning hammer up and then back. Spent two full hours on 5 and 6th octaves only….. after the third visit I was done…….too much improper tuning applied created the caught up wire in the duplex scaling…..

True, and I did mention that in a previous post. The question was whether it is very inaccurate to take this torsion out of the pin. Of course, it's not as accurate as a micrometer screw, but it is a predictable behaviour on a good piano from what I've gathered. Also, it could be argued that the same motion that sets the pin to its neutral position also helps to equalise the non-speaking tension. From what I've seen, tuners who use the impact method don't seem to need to belt the keys to equalise tension. It seems the impact motion achieves both desires - precise pin movement and tension equalisation. Of course, the tension would still be higher on the pin side, but it's close enough for the friction to hold it steady. I had a tuner use this method on my mother's piano, and he didn't pound the keys at all. That tuning has held steady for years.


Yes, I use that method too, but if you had a micrometer screw pin adjustment, you would have to be belting the key constantly as you tighten it up. Would get rather tiresome - especially on a pitch-raise or on badly out if tune pianos. Might be ok to maintain once you get the piano at pitch.

Yes for sure…but I am belting the key set anyways when I tune.I tend to be a little heavy handed when I tune..... All good stuff for comments, haven’t had time to read them all thoroughly I just popped in from the spray booth…gotta go….

On the Brinsmead it was to create a completely horizontal pull on the wire was the target for the maker…the threaded rods have a channel cut into them for the wire to pass through….I have had people contact me over the years since I posted this photo album looking for replacements of those…try pricing having one of those made by a machine shop……better take your wallet with you…….cheerio….keep going…….. good thread…..

No, I cannot feel when a string renders, but I can hear it because the pitch changes. The pitch does not change until the string renders. You can play a note and twist the pin without breaking the friction of the pinblock and hear the pitch change. And by combining the feel and the sound you can equalize the tension between the speaking and nonspeaking lengths, balance the torque on the pin with the tension of the string and evenly distribute the torque along the length of the pin. If this is not all as it should be and have the proper pitch, then the foot of the pin must be moved (breaking loose the friction of the pinblock). Sometimes you can only do so much with difficult pinblocks and friction points. The best way to move the foot of the pin is another subject that is being discussed in other Topics right now.

Exactly! Right now we can twist the pin slightly, which is enough to change the pitch of the pin, ie it can overcome the friction at the termination point, but it isn't enough to overcome the friction in the pinblock. If we overcome the friction between the pin and the pinblock.

That demonstrates exactly what I am talking about, the bottleneck isn't in the friction at the termination point, but in the accuracy of moving the pin, meaning the friction between the pin and the pinblock. It is that friction that the tuner is trying to overcome with nudging, because it is larger and it determines the minimum force required to change the pins position, also determining the strings pitch.

Partistic:

I am having some trouble with your grammar, but we can try to work around it.

Who says there is a “bottleneck” or obstacle? (A better term might be “obstacle”. “Bottleneck” means you can’t do something because someone else is already doing it.)

There is no problem with nudging a pin as long as the size of each nudge (lets say one cent) is smaller that the pitch difference that the rendering friction can hold. If I nudge a pin one cent, the pitch is ½ cent off, but the rendering friction can hold 2 cents; I can then render the string one half cent without moving the “foot of the pin” and have a stable note because the rendering friction will keep it there.

But nudging is not the only tuning technique. A smooth pull can be used where the pin’s position can be left wherever desired. There are methods for determining where the ideal place to leave the pin with a smooth pull prior to or in conjunction with rendering the string and “setting” the pin. Some of these methods work better on some pianos than others.

If there is a problem, it is not in the basic design of using a pinblock and tuning pins. It is in the quality control of the manufacturing and the environment that a piano is subjected to.

When I said bottleneck, I meant a limiting factor.

The point I am trying to make is that the current tuning system is not accurate enough. Watch the video of top professionals tuning higher unisons. They cannot move the pins accurately enough, they try to nudge them and it won't behave they way the want to. The limiting factor or the bottleneck is the friction between the pin and the pinblock, because as you pointed out, even flexing the pin changes the pitch of the string. If you put in enough force to overcome this friction, you can't control it accurately enough. With geared tuning pins this problem would be eliminated. There is also the added bonus of high stability.

Basically, forcing a pin into a wooden hole is an insane engineering idea for something requiring stability with precise control and accuracy.

Of course they can move the pins accurately enough. Listen to the results.

Edit: How do you know just what they were doing when it seemed that the pins weren't behaving they way they wanted in response to their nudges? They may have been rendering the strings and setting the pins with their nudges, not trying to actually move the pins. I do that sometimes.

LoL. You're not going to give up on this one, are you?

I really don't know how "top professional" I am. I've been tuning for money since I was 13 and I'm more than 40 years older than that. I still tune for money and people have me back. Just tuned a nice ~7' Shigeru for a repeat customer today FWIW. Sounded good to me when I left -- and I'm not easy to please. ... So, let me get this straight . . .

You have never tuned a piano in your life and are pontificating on what our problems are and what we find difficult? Based on looking at a movie? It's one thing to ask questions -- which various ones have attempted to answer. It's another to offer opinions based on no experience.

I'm even open to observations that a non-tuner might have to offer. But your analysis of our problems simply is off the mark. The problem is in your perception of what our challenges are. The challenges I face in tuning are not what you think and would not be fixed by the solutions you propose.

Yup.

We see it all the time - a layperson, DIYer, dilettante, whatever, comes on here and asks questions, however, he does not relent because he is looking for a specific answer which confirms his unqualified and pre-determined opinion.

I bowed out some 20 posts back when I realized it was a useless discussion. Now I only drop in from time to time for the entertainment value.

Which is not too shabby! Thanks for that, anyway!

How much more would it cost to have this kind of set up? $5000? You could get 50 tunings for that price.

Kees

Supply, kpembrook, UnrightTooner,

Alright, let me ask you this again. Do you hear some unisons still beating in the video where the professionals are tuning them? Do you see them trying their best to move the pin the smallest amount they can and it's not working too well? Do you think this is normal, acceptable and part of some sort of a rendering ritual, or is this tuning pin system too robust and inaccurate, and something that could be and should be improved upon?

Do you agree that the limiting factor right now in setting the speaking portions tension is in the ability to move the pin accurately?

You cannot tell much about tuning from a recording. There are plenty of other things that can interfere with the sound. Besides, you would have to compare the tuning with the same people tuning a screw stringer.

If you want to improve tuning accuracy/durability invent soundboards that that don't move and rendering points that allow the string to move freely while tuning and then bind up while playing. While you are at it invent strings that don't stretch and bridge pins that don't yield.

I do not agree that tuning pins are the weak link.

I've tuned screw stringers that didn't hold at all. I followed the instructions to tune up to pitch, but theres more than that to it.

My first and last post in this thread.

Last year, I saw videos of an August Förster "Quattrochord" grand piano. It had several unusual features, amongst others four strings per unison - hence its name.

But the one thing that impressed me, was that A.F. used the plate to hold the tuning pins, using a conical fit, slotted pin, friction washer, lock-washer with a tab, spring washer, another friction washer, nut and locknut. There's no pinblock to fit, to rock, to crack, to dry out... I think I actually posted some pictures here, in another thread. And the Austrian tech who restored it, wrote that the pins tuned quite normally.

To me as an amateur, this seems like a definite improvement on the wooden pinblock, especially in terms of longevity.

Partistic:

I do not know what video you may be talking about and probably would not watch it. There is a completely unrelated problem in tuning the high treble. There are false beats that need to be dealt with. It can look like a tuner is having trouble putting a note where they want it when in actuality they are trying different places so that strings with false beats will sound their best when played together.

Partistic:

Here is a video of someone tuning. I can tell when he is actually moving the pin, and when he is only rendering the string or setting the pin. Can you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzoBH-HbKmw

Partistic: It might help if you were more specific - which video, and at what time (minutes:seconds)?

This has been a really interesting discussion!

Not to interrupt the current direction the thread is going, but -

I am increasingly wanting to try a smaller tip (#1 star tip) on my Levitan lever on the Schimmel grand I am working with. The problem is that I also want the flexibility to try the 6:00 position, based on my reading of "Different Strokes." I am trying to figure out how to get the lever to clear the stretcher to accommodate the 6:00 lever position. I have not been able to find an extension tip in a #1 size, which is what I am really looking for. I have seen extensions that screw onto a tuning tip, and have a tapered square end on the other side like a tuning pin, so they can be used with a lever that already has another tip attached. I am concerned that this setup will add a little looseness to an otherwise tight lever and welded-on head, and will undo the good work Dan Levitan has done making his lever stiff.

Any other creative ways of getting a #1 tip and some sort of extension on a Levitan lever?

I was talking about the video posted earlier in this thread:

http://www.ptg.org/media/tuning.mov

UnrightTooner, in that segment of the video you posted, some unisons are still beating. Maybe they are false beats, maybe not, he is moving on quite quickly and leaving them alone. In the video posted earlier and that I linked again, you can see others struggling more with the right pin position, sometimes getting a slightly better unison, then going overboard etc.

Anyway, the best way to test would be to try and tune the unisons on a piano with the geared tuning system. Perhaps the difference in tuning accuracy wouldn't be very big or even noticeable. I don't know. It is just that the engineering idea to have tuners lodge some pins in wood for a system that needs a high degree of accuracy and stability is a little funny. The very high stability alone is a good argument in support of the geared system. Imagine having to touch up your piano only a couple of times in 20 years!

Partistic: It might help if you were more specific - which video, and at what time (minutes:seconds)?

Kees

How do you connect the ability to tune accurately by using a geared system with long term stability?

(Jurgen: if there is room, move over. I'm outta here too!)

I get those sorts of results with tuning pins. Pianos rarely go out of tune because of tuning pins slipping. They go out of tune because of weather and poor tuning technique.

Are you convinced that they are necessarily disconnected?