In addition to pin twisting, there is a flex of the tuning hammer shaft. The more rigid the hammer the less MZ.

That's why I love my Fujan, what I feel is the elasticity of the tuning pin, not the flexing of my tuning hammer.

Gadzar:

I might agree with you if I percieved the MZ as an arc. But I percieve the MZ as a window of pitch, not a window of hammer movement.

And in addition to the flexibility of the tuning hammer shaft, Owen Jorgensen says that "the sensation of pin bending and twisting actually arises from events in the wood fibers of the hole, not from actual bending and twisting of the pin".

So the elasticity of the pinblock's wood comes also into play. Should we talk about setting the pinblock's hole instead of tuning pin setting?

Gadzar:

I agree that the wood fibers has something to do with it, but not because that is what someone wrote. It is something that I can feel. In fact, I think the wood fibers are why tuning from flat to sharp is different and more stable than from sharp to flat. But just what is going on, I am not sure.

For me what Owen Jorgensen says has more value than what I, in my short career, or you in yours can feel.

I think the experiments referred to earlier in this thread prove him wrong.

Kees

Well! I see your Owen Jorgensen bet and raise you an Arthur Reblitz!

this thread is alive and kicking for sure

What experiments?

Wood has more elasticity than iron.

I have never seen a wooden coil spring. I think steel is much more elastic.

Here you go again.

I am tired to argue with you.

The pinblock, as anything else in this material world, has some elasticity in it and it flexes under the forces execed with the tuning hammer. What I am saying is that this contributes to the MZ.

Please give me a break!

Extracted from "Different Strokes"

Appendix D: The Marshmallow Zone.

As written by Ken Burton:

Causes for the "Marshmallow Effect"

... After tuning one of those Wurlitzer pianos with the tuning pins set in a cast iron pin block (no kidding, no wood, all iron!), and after some "messing around" (I really can't call it experimenting) with tuning pins in my shop bench vise, I have come to believe that the pins do actually bend and twist a bit, but not as much as it feels like in some pianos. The wood fibers gripping the pin are probably also dynamically involved, somehow adding to the sensation of flexing and twisting...

That´s what I am talking about when I said wood has more elasticity than iron.

So the elasticity of the pin block (as the flexibility of the shaft of the tuning hammer) has its own place in the Marshmallow Effect.

And that's exactly what I'm saying: the pins do twist but not as much as what it feels like.

This has gotten beyond silly. Eventually, you have to stop marshmallow zoning and start tuning.

The experiments referred to earlier in this thread. A wire is attached to the back and front of the pin. It's just a few postings back.

Hard to believe the pin twists 5 degrees, but I assume Uri Geller was not involved in the experiments.

Now everybody here agrees the wood is also elastic and the perceived MZ is the sum of both.

What one does not agree on is how much each of these 2 factors actually contributes.

Kees

I made the claim of 5 degrees on a tight pin, but that is from my memory which is like a steel sieve.

I totally agree.

Thanks, Bill! TUNE THE PIANO FOR GOD's SAKE! 45 minutes oughta do it.

Gadzar:

I will admit that some pianos have mushy feeling pinblocks and the pinblock component of the MZ is greater than the tuning pin component. These are the minority, though.

How do you know? (Question, not trying to be argumentative.)

Kees

I checked unisons after 4 days and they were as I left them. Now an arctic front is moving in. I'll be very curious to try after that.

Kees

Good question, I am trying to run it through my mind. I think it was most noticeable in the lack of "springing back" of the pin. If I think of a better explanation I'll post it.

Can anyone else describe it?

On the particular mushy piano I had under my hands, to bring the pitch up I would go "jerk-jerk-jerk-jerk". (No insult intended.) At each jerk I imagined I felt a "steel spring" and something moving in quicksand. The "steel spring" part immediately bounces back, the quicksand stuff just creeps back under test blows. Now I suspect the quicksand stuff is a mix of wood fibers deforming reluctantly and string rendering issues.

Does that sound right?

Kees