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#1607618 - 01/28/11 04:10 PM When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100
Crayola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 299
Loc: Chicago, IL
I have two students (3rd and 4th graders, and NOT siblings) who have recently finished PA level 3A, and are reading very independently. They practice well and are playing 2-octave scales, triad inversions, and arpeggios in multiple keys, and are going through classical literature along with the PA. I don't sense the need to continue with method books, since they are picking up things quickly and don't need a step-by-step approach anymore. I'm wondering if I can start them on Burgmuller's 25 Progressive Studies. I could see it taking 3-4 weeks for them to successfully play it each piece. Is this too long? I think it would be a perfect study to bridge the gap between later elementary and intermediate music. I will have them continue working through their classical books (The Developing Artist book 1), and occasionally give them popular stuff from movies. Would anyone recommend another type of study to work on alongside classical and popular, that will move them into the intermediate literature?
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#1607623 - 01/28/11 04:15 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
Brinestone Offline
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Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 358
Honestly, they sound more than ready. And I'd say 3–4 weeks is on the short end of how long a longer, more difficult song should take to learn.
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#1607777 - 01/28/11 09:18 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I disagree. From the contents of The Developing Artist Book 1, these are upper elementary (or the very earliest intermediate) pieces, and the Burgmuller is well into the intermediate level. The Burgmuller Ballade is included in Developing Artist Book 3.
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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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#1607799 - 01/28/11 10:58 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
Crayola Offline
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Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 299
Loc: Chicago, IL
John, what would you recommend to bridge that gap?
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#1607857 - 01/29/11 01:46 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
ll Offline
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Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 1101
You could move them into another repertoire series with more song selections.

Keith Snell is the one John recommended me a long while back and I've been hooked to it ever since. There's an Etude book as well, which will have a collection of multiple composers. Some of them are quite nice, too.

As a reference point, too, I think Burgmuller starts appearing in Level 5 of Piano Adventures. 3A would be too earlier to introduce that.
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Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.

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#1607874 - 01/29/11 02:29 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
The Celebration Series has both Repertoire and Etudes books and the teacher handbook is a goldmine of information and ideas. Well worth investing.

I personally don't like the editing in the Snell series.
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#1607964 - 01/29/11 08:47 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Crayola
John, what would you recommend to bridge that gap?

Although I use the Keith Snell Piano Repertoire series (published by Kjos), you may find consistency sticking with the series you're now using, the Developing Artist Series. There is additionally a CD for the student to hear a highly polished performance of each selection. I've also been using the Helen Marlais series, Mastery through the Classics (this may not be exactly the title) but it moves at a slower pace, has more selections, and is helpful for the student who needs a little extra. And the Celebration series is excellent.

What I particularly like about Snell's series is the breadth of music at each of the 11 levels (Primer through grade 10). As AZN and Minniemay have pointed out, it does lack some refinement in fingering and ornamentation. It's not designed to be an Urtext for the student, but a learning tool. And most important, it's really well-graded. By that I mean that the selections are consistent at each level. There are a few which are at the high end of the previous level, most at at the current level, and a few "challenge" pieces for the quicker learner.
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Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
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#1608019 - 01/29/11 10:17 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
Crayola Offline
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Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 299
Loc: Chicago, IL
Yes, I've used the Snell series quite a bit with some students, although I haven't tried the Etudes. I need to take a look at them. I tend to use either Snell or the Developing Artist. I like the selection of the Celebration series as well, and think there's so many great pieces - especially 20th century material. Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions.
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#1608023 - 01/29/11 10:20 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
Brinestone Offline
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Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 358
Okay, sorry. I guess I was misunderstanding how much they knew and unfamiliar with the Faber method in general. Disregard my post, please! smile
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#1608559 - 01/30/11 01:28 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Brinestone]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: Brinestone
Okay, sorry. I guess I was misunderstanding how much they knew and unfamiliar with the Faber method in general. Disregard my post, please! smile
On the contrary - this kind of post is a great source of information for me, since I don't know much about some of the books being discussed - and I suspect it's valuable for a lot of other people too. Definitely a situation where "The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask" holds true.
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#1608566 - 01/30/11 01:46 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1290
Loc: Berkeley, California
I am so glad you brought up Burgmuller's collection of 25 Progressive pieces, because these are so beautiful, and it sounds like your students certainly are ready for the earlier ones. They do get a bit difficult as they move along, but still worth the challenge. I have some blogs on Burgmuller with videos embedded. Certainly Arabesque, Candore, Tender Flower, would probably suit your students to a tee.

http://arioso7.wordpress.com

If you scroll down at my site, I have videos of Arabesque, La Chasse and Tarentelle with sample playing and discussions about them. La Chasse is a bit tricky with the broken staccato octaves against the legato hunting motif chords in the LH. The section following in A minor is less complicated with broken chords in the LH and a flowing melody above. Tarentelle, so gorgeous, is a favorite, but a tad of a challenge to master for an Intermediate student in a brisk tempo. The Ave Maria, however falls back into Intermediate range.

Sometimes, the right piece, even a tad above level, is a great motivator and worth a try.


Edited by music32 (01/30/11 01:52 AM)
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#1608576 - 01/30/11 02:18 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 1101
While I agree that a piece 'tad above level' is always a great motivator, I don't think etudes, particularly the Burgmuller ones, fall within that range.

I think the series John mentioned is "Succeeding with the Masters," and it's companion "The Festival Collection"? If not, then I haven't heard about this other one and can't find it but would be interested.

I personally don't like Succeeding with the Masters (less selections, even though the ones in there are quite good, and no 20th century pieces I think), but love The Festival Collection. There's a chart here for reference as to when she thinks students would be ready for which book:
http://fjhmusic.com/marlais_correlation_chart.pdf

Otherwise, like John suggested, stick with The Developing Artist. It's another repertoire collection like the others, but simply has less choices and kind of advances quicker. You could try supplementing with the PA method still, or the Pretime to Bigtime series, or with other repertoire books at the same level, but moving into the Burgmuller would be a bit much now, I think.
_________________________
II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.

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#1608592 - 01/30/11 03:27 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: music32]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5595
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: music32
The Ave Maria, however falls back into Intermediate range.

Ack...have you tried teaching this piece? Nobody likes it. I don't even like it. It's probably one of the clunkers of the set.

For those who are tired of Burgmuller Op. 100, I recommend Gurlitt's Albumleaves for the Young. Much, much less played, but just as effective writing.
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#1608594 - 01/30/11 03:39 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: John v.d.Brook]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5595
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
What I particularly like about Snell's series is the breadth of music at each of the 11 levels (Primer through grade 10)...And most important, it's really well-graded. By that I mean that the selections are consistent at each level. There are a few which are at the high end of the previous level, most at at the current level, and a few "challenge" pieces for the quicker learner.

Really? I find Celebration Series: Perspectives much better (and reasonable) in terms of grading the pieces. But I personally prefer Magrath's Masterwork Classics series for the music selection.

But with the disaster transfer students I've been getting the last few years, I'm starting to use other anthologies not confined to levels.
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#1608619 - 01/30/11 05:10 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: AZNpiano]
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1290
Loc: Berkeley, California
I have taught the Ave Maria, and don't find that "nobody likes it." Like any other selection from the repertoire, there are always students who do well with a piece, or not. Some like this or that. What's good for one, may not be for another.
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#1608621 - 01/30/11 05:14 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: AZNpiano]
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1290
Loc: Berkeley, California
I find the Op. 100 delightful, and harmonically engaging but agree that it's not one Intermediate level throughout. I guess that's why the pieces are "Progressive," though not necessarily in the order they are presented.
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Piano blog: Performances, Instruction, Interviews
http://www.arioso7.wordpress.com

You Tube Channel
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NYC HS of Performing Arts
Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and Baldwin, Yamaha Arius141
MTAC Alameda

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#1608633 - 01/30/11 06:00 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: music32]
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 1101
Originally Posted By: music32
I find the Op. 100 delightful, and harmonically engaging but agree that it's not one Intermediate level throughout. I guess that's why the pieces are "Progressive," though not necessarily in the order they are presented.


No one said it's a single intermediate grade throughout.

But no one can try to say that it's BELOW intermediate standards. And that's the issue. I would never imagine giving Burgmuller to a straight beginner. They just wouldn't be ready for it, and considering they are all mostly fast etudes with a lot of technical work jam-packed in, compared to other etudes at the same level.
_________________________
II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.

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#1608711 - 01/30/11 09:52 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
The beauty of having so many choices is that each teacher can find the material s/he is most comfortable with. A teacher comfortable with the subject matter makes for a better learning situation for the student. We've only mentioned a few of the most popular series, but there are others available, and number sets or collections of intermediate level material which can serve just as well for the progressing student. Burgmuller's etudes were written for this purpose, as were Heller's.

AZN, I forgot you like Jane MacGrath's series. I use it too, but supplementary, generally with transfer students who need some holes plugged.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1609019 - 01/30/11 06:56 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: AZNpiano]
Brinestone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 358
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: music32
The Ave Maria, however falls back into Intermediate range.

Ack...have you tried teaching this piece? Nobody likes it. I don't even like it. It's probably one of the clunkers of the set.

For those who are tired of Burgmuller Op. 100, I recommend Gurlitt's Albumleaves for the Young. Much, much less played, but just as effective writing.


I love the Ave Maria, and so does the student I'm teaching it to right now. I also think it's a great, gentle introduction into arpeggios (on the second page).
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#1609061 - 01/30/11 08:24 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
dumdumdiddle Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1267
Loc: California
I introduce students first to Streabbog and from there, to Burgmuller.
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#1609071 - 01/30/11 08:36 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: dumdumdiddle]
kck Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 269
My son went through a number of Clementi's Sonatina Op 36 movements before Burgmuller Op 100. Op 100 pieces look simpler than they are IMHO. They are difficult to play technically well.
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#1609137 - 01/30/11 10:47 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: kck]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I'm glad you mentioned sonatinas. It reminds me that I usually don't begin Burgmuller until the student has progressed to the easier Kuhlau sonatinas, which are a bit more challenging than the easier Clementi.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1609147 - 01/30/11 10:57 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Brinestone Offline
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Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 358
Huh. I've always thought sonatinas, even the easier ones, were harder than some of the easy Burgmuller stuff.
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#1609316 - 01/31/11 08:34 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: John v.d.Brook]
kck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 269
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
I'm glad you mentioned sonatinas. It reminds me that I usually don't begin Burgmuller until the student has progressed to the easier Kuhlau sonatinas, which are a bit more challenging than the easier Clementi.


Good point! My son also did some Kuhlau as well before Burgmueller. And then progressed to the more difficult Clementi.
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#1609332 - 01/31/11 09:23 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
KR123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/25/09
Posts: 10
This thread caught my eye because my daughter is learning the Arabesque (Op. 100, No. 2) right now. It is included in the Piano Adventures Level 4 Performance book, about two-thirds of the way through.

As I recall, PA doesn't even introduce sixteenth notes until Level 3B, so I wouldn't think most students would be ready to jump into the Burgmuller immediately after PA Level 3A.

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#1609349 - 01/31/11 09:51 AM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: KR123]
Crayola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 299
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: KR123


As I recall, PA doesn't even introduce sixteenth notes until Level 3B, so I wouldn't think most students would be ready to jump into the Burgmuller immediately after PA Level 3A.


You're right - most students wouldn't be able to. However, the two students I mentioned are very bright and have played lots of supplementary material that's at early intermediate level. They're familiar with 16th notes, and wouldn't have a problem knowing how to play them. My only hesitations after reading these posts would be about the technical demand they make. Just because these two kids can read very well doesn't mean they're ready for the challenges presented in Burgmuller. I went to the music store on Saturday and picked up several books of etudes and Celebration's Perspectives. They all looked promising, and I'll have to take my time to peruse them later. Thanks for also mentioning the Clementi Sonatinas. I do believe some Sonatinas are included in their classical book, but they haven't gotten their yet.
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#1610294 - 02/01/11 01:41 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: Crayola]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Cleaning house yesterday, I came across my copies of Ingrid Jacobson Clarfield's Etude series, published by Alfred in 3 volumes. Ms. Clarfield has taken etudes from Czerny, Hanon, Heller, Burgmuller and others and compiled them both by level and by technique each addresses. It's a very useful series and rather than using Burgmuller Op 100, you might want to consider this series.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1610453 - 02/01/11 04:27 PM Re: When to start Burgmuller's Op. 100 [Re: John v.d.Brook]
GlassLove Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/10
Posts: 769
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Cleaning house yesterday, I came across my copies of Ingrid Jacobson Clarfield's Etude series, published by Alfred in 3 volumes. Ms. Clarfield has taken etudes from Czerny, Hanon, Heller, Burgmuller and others and compiled them both by level and by technique each addresses. It's a very useful series and rather than using Burgmuller Op 100, you might want to consider this series.


I have this book (Level 1) and am really enjoying it. My teacher assigns a Czerny piece each week. The Burgmuller pieces take a bit more time for me to master (2-3 weeks),but I have been playing for 1 year and 3 months and don't find the demands of the Burgmuller pieces to be too much.
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