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#1609260 - 01/31/11 06:06 AM Recording with Ivory without hiccups.
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
So I've recently purchased Ivory II Grand Pianos.
I am very happy with it, I've been able to turn down the latency to a non-noticable level and while I do plan on getting an SSD for Ivory later on I can still play resonably complicated stuff without too bad slow disk problems when I don't turn the Polyphony too high.

My problem though is this: When I want to record my playing via midi and then make a wave file with maximum polyphony and no hiccups. Shouldn't be a problem since Ivory should be able to take all the time it needs. But it doesn't. I'm using Reaper for recording and rendering (and also for playing, Ivory Cantabile doesn't seem to work too well). When I render the wave file normaly it uses 15x realtime speed and Ivory can't keep up. It's getting better when I reduce the rendering speed to 1x realtime, but I want the final product to be better then what Ivory can do realtime.
Does anyone have experience with this kind of problem?
Is there some way to ensure a perfect rendering of the wave file, or do I have to find a way to render the file really slowly (which I haven't in Reaper) and hope that Ivory can keep up?
Thanks in advance for any hints or suggestions.

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#1609282 - 01/31/11 07:05 AM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: Masume]
curt88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 346
I'm not familiar with Reaper but there should be some sort of a "freeze" function available (that's what's it's called in SONAR). What this does is an offline rendering of your MIDI data to a WAV clip right in the same track.

And I have never had a functionality problem with Cantabile... at all.

Curt

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#1609290 - 01/31/11 07:28 AM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: Masume]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Im not a Reaper expert, but if you look in the leftmost menu "File", you should find "Render" and there "Offline Render".
This should do the trick.
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1609477 - 01/31/11 12:53 PM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: hpeterh]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
Thanks, that did the trick. smile
I have to choose "Offline Render (1x Realtime)", I had though I had already tried that and that the result was the same as playing live, but I guess I didn't. Though I think I heard a small fault in there aswell on an extreme example I tried, but nothing perticularly noticable.

About Cantabile: Cantabile doesn't like it when I press any control button on my digital piano (and by doesn't like I mean crashes immediatly) plus I wasn't able to change the sampling rate to 96000 and at 48000 there was still a noticable lag (well, to be precise I could change it, but it just wouldn't care and change it back immediatly).
I also wasn't able to Render the file like I just found out I could in Reaper.
But it doesn't matter much, it works just fine in Reaper and I need Reapers recording functions often, so I probably wouldn't have used it either way.


Edited by Masume (01/31/11 01:27 PM)

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#1610024 - 02/01/11 02:24 AM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: Masume]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Hhm -if you change the sample rate from 48000 to 96000 then latency is decreased to 50%, but at the same time amount of samples per ms is increased to 200% and thus the total processing load is increased.
It /should/ be better to reduce the sample buffer size instead.


Edited by hpeterh (02/01/11 02:25 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1610299 - 02/01/11 01:45 PM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: hpeterh]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
I don't mind the processing load as long as my PC can handle it, I'd rather have the lower latency. I already have buffer size down to 256, anything lower than that won't work. The latency at 48000 sample rate and 256 buffer size is tolerable for slow and quiter pieces, but distracting when playing faster and louder.

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#1610343 - 02/01/11 02:19 PM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: Masume]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Masume
So I've recently purchased Ivory II Grand Pianos.
I am very happy with it, I've been able to turn down the latency to a non-noticable level and while I do plan on getting an SSD for Ivory later on I can still play resonably complicated stuff without too bad slow disk problems when I don't turn the Polyphony too high.

My problem though is this: When I want to record my playing via midi and then make a wave file with maximum polyphony and no hiccups. Shouldn't be a problem since Ivory should be able to take all the time it needs. But it doesn't. I'm using Reaper for recording and rendering (and also for playing, Ivory Cantabile doesn't seem to work too well). When I render the wave file normaly it uses 15x realtime speed and Ivory can't keep up. It's getting better when I reduce the rendering speed to 1x realtime, but I want the final product to be better then what Ivory can do realtime.
Does anyone have experience with this kind of problem?
Is there some way to ensure a perfect rendering of the wave file, or do I have to find a way to render the file really slowly (which I haven't in Reaper) and hope that Ivory can keep up?
Thanks in advance for any hints or suggestions.


I have to say "you get what you pay for" but other software simply does NOT have this problem. I assume you are using Reaper because of it's price. (Maybe Ivory used up the entire software budget?)

Rendering Ivory is NOT a big job for a computer. Think about a typical music production environment where you are developing a sound track for a video game or TV commercial. Typical is to have a half dozen MIDI tracks and maybe some vocals and acoustic instrument tracks and they are get played just fine even one older equipment.

Ivory has a large number of samples but that does not matter to the software. Al that does matter is the polyphony and the sample rate. Multiply those to get the bit rate. Unused velocity samples simply remain on the disk and do nothing.

I hate to say "follow the crowd" but in the case of music production software (aka "DAW") it is good to use something that is widely used in the industry. That will pretty much push you to ProTools or Logic. Each of these is a veery mature product with a decade plus of use in major studios.

Back when computers where slow what people used to do is "freeze" a track. basically if you are done editing and and drawing the automation on a track you "freeze" it and the DAW converts it to a wave file so it no longer has to be rendered in real time. This way we could work with dozens of tracks. But your problen occurs even with just one track, I'd say ditch the software it's not worth you time to spend weeks and months learning something that is so far off the mainstream.

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#1610388 - 02/01/11 03:11 PM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: Masume]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
I wouldn't say Rendering Ivory is not a big job for a computer. My understanding is this: It's basically the same as playing it and that has some problems in realtime if the polyphony is set too high because then the amount of data per second needed to be streamed from my harddrive surpasses its capabilities. So naturally when Reaper renders it in full speed disregarding the time Ivory needs to pull the data from my harddrive the result can't be correct for if that worked it would prove that Ivory can render my midi faster than realtime which contradicts the problems I have playing it live. But that Problem is solved now that I found out I have to set the rendering speed to "offline 1x Realtime". I have said there were still notes being lost on extreme examples, but I think thats just Ivory's built in 160 voices maximum. Other than that, Reaper works great and is easy to use.

You might misunderstand what I use Reaper and Ivory for. I don't use it professionally, making music is a treasured hobby of mine, but nothing more. I do not only use Reaper for midi, so I'm extremely happy that a product that works great and has all the features I need at an affordable price even exists. You're argument may be valid for high end professional use, but for everything other than that Reaper is a blessing.

(and yes, Ivory did use up my budget...)


Edited by Masume (02/02/11 06:35 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#1610899 - 02/02/11 03:23 AM Re: Recording with Ivory without hiccups. [Re: Masume]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Reaper works here with 3.3 ms latency (+ 1ms Output latency)
Network, Searchindexing, Antivir all features enabled in Windows 7 64 bits and no problems. I think less would be possible, but the driver of my UA 4FX doesnt allow lower adjustment.

So, Reaper is very good despite the price. But every other software on my computer Cantabile included has the same performance.
Reaper is also able to load 32 bit VSTs and 64 Bit VSTs what many expensive DAW's cannot do. So dont conclude from the price to the quality.

There is one thing that I found important for synthogy.
Synthogy seems to run on one core only. Also my USB interface runs on one core only and it produces 80% CPU usage spikes for this core.
I get spurious crackles with synthogy (respective Reaper) if synthogy runs on the same core as the USB interface.
If synthogy is assigned to another core this does not happen.

No such problems with Kontakt player. This distributes the load over all six cores..

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (02/02/11 03:27 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1612078 - 02/03/11 04:35 PM Problem NOT solved [Re: hpeterh]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
I'm afraid my problem persists even when rendering with the 1x Realtime Offline setting. I had tried what I had considered an extreme example and it worked okay, but now I tried to render a complete piece and there were again ugly lost notes. Does anyone know how else I might tackle this problem? One solution I see is simply buying a faster harddrive (an SSD) so that not even playing live produces hiccups, which I plan to do in the future, but until then I would like to be able to at least render my in full polyphony. Maybe another host programm (that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars) I could try?
As I said Cantabile doesn't work any better, it won't even let me render offline.
I think if I don't fix this soon I will contact Synthogy about it...

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#1612221 - 02/03/11 07:38 PM Re: Problem NOT solved [Re: Masume]
bbent Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 95
Loc: CA, USA
Masume,

Perhaps you could provide information on the hardware you are using (e.g., CPU, speed, DRAM, number and type of HDs, audio interface, etc.) and your OS?

I use Ivory and couldn't be happier with it, FWTIW.
_________________________
Regards,
Bob

NY Steinway A 1907, FP-7F wi RPU-3
HW: GA-X58A-UD3R, i7-930, 6GB & 2ea WD2002FAEX, 1ea WD1001FALS1TB, UA1000, Yamaha 2.1 HSM80M/HS10W, DPA SMK4061, Mackie LM3204
SW: Win7 Pro x64, Sonar PE 8.5.3, NI Komplete 8 Ult, Ivory Grand Pianos II

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#1612472 - 02/04/11 05:06 AM Re: Problem NOT solved [Re: bbent]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
sure, I'm using an Intel i5 750 Processor, 4 gb of DDR3 Ram and a 7200RPM 1TB Western Digital 10Ears Caviar Green Hard drive (which I had forgotten to defragment before installing Ivory 2 but did so afterwards), I'm using Asio4All with my Creative X-Fi Xtreme Audio Soundcard on Windows 7 professional.
So my system is fairly up to date, I don't think thats the problem (aside from the non-ssd harddrive).

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#1612508 - 02/04/11 07:57 AM Re: Problem NOT solved [Re: Masume]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
So far I know, offline rendering should work even on a slow computer.
If the disk is slow, it should wait for it. That is the purpose of offline rendering.

Maybe there is another problem, such as overlapping notes in the MIDI recording? Or MIDI events are missing or corrupted in the recording?

BTW, I have a similar harddrive. With synthogy there are problems as soon as windows develops a lot of disk activity. This happens after installing upgrades or after some time of user inactivity. Apparently windows does then start superfetch and tries to optimize the drive.

Synthogy works on a second independent drive for me.

Also, Synthogy is set to 24 note polyphony after installation. This is not enough for advanced playing. Did you increase this setting?


Edited by hpeterh (02/04/11 08:09 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1612554 - 02/04/11 09:50 AM Re: Problem NOT solved [Re: Masume]
Masume Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Germany
The midi file is fine and yes, the polyphony is maxed out to 160 and my resourcemonitor shows that the harddrive isn't used much other then by ivory. But I THINK I have solved the problem now. It seems Reaper was to blame. I have tried a different software and there offline rendering seemed to work flawlessly and now that I updated reaper to the most recent version (which I had postponed due to immeasurable lazyness) it seems to work here to, but I didn't have the time yet to test it thoroughly. I have noticed that during offline rendering Ivory shows the "Slow Disc" message, though I'm not sure how to interpret that phenomenon.

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