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#1611364 - 02/02/11 06:00 PM Older Bluthner 6' 3"
Dave Ferris Offline
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A friend is considering this piano. It was built in 1918 and has the original soundboard. He had it restored to the original Bluthner action. It also doesn't have the Aliquot stringing, where a fourth, non-struck, string was added in the upper register to enhance overtones.

This is about 90 miles out of LA so is it worth the trip? The price seems excellent. I don't know too much about Bluthners.

Thanks in advance.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/2193587532.html
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#1611386 - 02/02/11 06:34 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
Mark... Offline
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Loc: Jersey Shore
It seems to be an outstanding deal if it checks out.

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#1611406 - 02/02/11 06:53 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
ChatNoir Offline
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Loc: Encino, California
I would definitely drive to Riverside for this kind of deal. I played a Blüthner from 1915 at the Blüthner showroom in Leipzig some years ago, and it was divine. Here is a link that can give you a little more information about the brand:

http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/bluthner.htm
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#1611410 - 02/02/11 06:57 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
beethoven986 Offline
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I don't think it's a good idea. Replacing a pinblock on these old Bluethners is very difficult, so it was probably just re-pinned with oversized pins instead of replaced...
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#1611532 - 02/02/11 10:21 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
Supply Offline
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Considering that the original pins would have been very small (6.75 mm), there is not necessarily anything wrong with restringing with one size larger pins, IF the pinblock is OK. With the piano in CA there is a good chance of an intact pinblock.

The action (hammers etc) looks all original (old) and has not been rebuilt from what I can see. It is worth looking at if not too far away.
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#1611631 - 02/03/11 02:58 AM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
David-G Online   content
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My Bluthner, which is 37 years older than this, retains its original pinblock. It was repinned with pins a size larger. My tuner tells me that it is exemplary for ease and stability of tuning.

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#1611836 - 02/03/11 11:48 AM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
Robert 45 Online   content
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I'd drive a thousand miles to look at a piano of that class on offer at such a low price. It is a Bluthner of the "Golden Age" of Bluthner pianos which is the period between the wars.
I believe that an original soundboard in good condition is generally preferable to a piano with a soundboard replacement.
A good Bluthner of that period could have a heavenly sound. However, I would have an independent check on the piano.
Good luck!
Robert.

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#1612841 - 02/04/11 07:34 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Robert 45]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1675
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Well my friend and I made the drive to check this out.

The overall tone was beautiful ! The action was pretty uneven in places. The shallow key dip was noticeable right away and something that bothered me a quite a bit.

I'm wondering how much smoother a good tech could make the action feel. I'm guessing with this older patented action there will only be so much he can do.

The action is not as critical for my friend since he's getting this more for enjoyment and family then has a serious practice instrument. He's a Guitarist and a studio/pro tools wizard that writes for TV and other outlets. He's on the computer composing/mixing/editing with "Ivory" and other mega samples sometimes 12 hours a day. He's looking for something non-electronic, high tech sounding where can relax his ears and just unwind from the world of 96K 24 bit, something for the soul.

All things considered I think it would be hard to find a piano, especially a 6' 3" that will have the "sound" of this at 8K.
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#1612858 - 02/04/11 08:04 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
Robert 45 Online   content
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Hi Dave,
Good on you for for making the drive to see this piano and it seems that it could be just right for your friend.
My teacher had a slightly smaller Bluthner of that period and I remember that the action took some getting used to. I am sure a good technician would be able to effect some improvement in smoothing out any uneveness in the touch.
The warm,honeyed sound from a Bluthner of that vintage is indeed nectar for the soul.
It must be an extraordinary piano.

Kind regards,

Robert.

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#1612883 - 02/04/11 08:55 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
beethoven986 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

The shallow key dip was noticeable right away and something that bothered me a quite a bit.


The Patent Action has a different sensation than the modern action. There is less mass, and there is no after-touch. These characteristics are probably what you found bothersome.


Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
I'm wondering how much smoother a good tech could make the action feel. I'm guessing with this older patented action there will only be so much he can do.


My mentor restored one of these a few years ago (before my time) and sold it locally, so I've had a chance to play it... I did just yesterday, actually. All I can say is that it runs circles around almost every other piano I've played, and I've played almost everything.

You'd want to have someone do a friction treatment on the action, and then have it regulated. Assuming the hammers are appropriate for the piano, this should be enough to make it play very well. You would need to find a tech who is familiar with the Patent Action.

Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

All things considered I think it would be hard to find a piano, especially a 6' 3" that will have the "sound" of this at 8K.


There is no doubt that these are charming pianos. However, sometimes a bargain isn't actually a bargain. If whoever rebuilt this piano misjudged the condition of the pinblock, or just repinned it because they don't know how to replace it (it's a more complicated job on one of these), then the piano could have poor tuning stability. Same thing with the soundboard and action. Also, when was this work done? If it's been a while, then this piano is probably overpriced.

With so many people trying to sell their pianos, I can't imagine it'd be difficult to find a better deal. Good luck.
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#1618007 - 02/12/11 02:10 AM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Loc: Glendale, Ca.
My friend bought the 1918 6'3" Bluthner, after paying $200 to have it checked out by a tech out in that area that was recommended by Kasimoff Piano, the LA Bluthner dealer.

The report came back not too glowing. It was recommended he replace the hammers, bush the keys, replace backchecks and regulation at a cost of 5-6K.

After talking with my tech, we both agreed since the tone is already excellent and my friend isn't a practicing pianist putting in 3-4 hours a day, he could probably forgo the hammers for awhile.

He's prepared to sink another $1000 into the regulation and action.
The seller was asking $7900 and my friend was able to get it at 7K. My friend Pierre Julia, at the Fazioli store, gave me the number of his movers, who gave my friend an excellent price of $200 to move the piano from out in Banning to his home in Los Feliz, about 90 miles away.

He kept playing the audio clips he recorded of me playing the Bluthner over and over. He really felt the Bluthner sounded special and was the one, so I'm very excited for him. I almost feel like it's part my piano in a way, I got into it as much as my friend.

Will report back when he takes delivery, gets it in his living room, checks out the sound and gets an updated report from either my tech or another guy here in town.
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#1618233 - 02/12/11 12:16 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
pianoloverus Online   content
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If the tone is excellent, why was it recommended that the hammers be replace?

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#1618279 - 02/12/11 01:21 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: pianoloverus]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Loc: Glendale, Ca.
To quote the tech's report--" Hammers very worn, should be replaced".
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#1618499 - 02/12/11 06:26 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
beethoven986 Offline
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I hope it works out for your friend. However, I do think that price is insanely high in light of the tech report. These old Bluethners show up on the Internet on a regular basis for not much money. Sure, this piano has had work done to it, but based on the report, it was either done a long time ago, or not much thought went into the reconditioning... I probably would have offered 3500 firm.
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#1618526 - 02/12/11 07:19 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
Dave Ferris Offline
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He would not be the owner now if he had offered that price. The seller forwarded my friend two legit email offers at 7k. He held it for my friend because-- he was the first to look at it, dug the fact that we were both musicians, liked the Ravel and Bill Evans stuff I was playing and the fact my friend went through the hassle of paying a tech to go out there.

Sure they might show up on the internet in Ohio, New Jersey or Florida. But to actually play the piano in person, within a 90 minute drive in town, with a good pianist is everything.
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#1618543 - 02/12/11 07:58 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
mcnevnev Offline
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Registered: 01/29/11
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
I hope it works out for your friend. However, I do think that price is insanely high in light of the tech report. These old Bluethners show up on the Internet on a regular basis for not much money. Sure, this piano has had work done to it, but based on the report, it was either done a long time ago, or not much thought went into the reconditioning... I probably would have offered 3500 firm.


The only Bluthner I have seen on the internet cheaper than 18k is the Pro Audio Vault Bluthner Digital Model One - Piano samples. They cost about $295.00. smile

There is one on eBay that is currently at $3,200.00. I talked to the seller (who was a very nice guy) and he said he wouldn't sell the piano to a musician. He felt it was a beautiful piece of furniture or possible some rebuilder might buy it and put in 15k or so to restore it. Of course now that piano is 18k plus....

I would be very interested in seeing all the old or current links for the Bluthners you've seen that are well below 7k.

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#1618569 - 02/12/11 08:33 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: mcnevnev]
beethoven986 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/09
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Originally Posted By: mcnevnev


I would be very interested in seeing all the old or current links for the Bluthners you've seen that are well below 7k.


To clarify, I'm not talking about one that's necessarily playable. Here's one that is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120682931788#ht_1494wt_1139

With some work, especially voicing, this would likely be a nice instrument for someone.
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#1618593 - 02/12/11 09:19 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
beethoven986 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


Sure they might show up on the internet in Ohio, New Jersey or Florida. But to actually play the piano in person, within a 90 minute drive in town, with a good pianist is everything.


While not for everyone, some people (even professional pianists) do actually conduct nationwide and even international searches, and end up buying a piano sight unseen. For old pianos like these, I don't agree that having a good pianist try it out is "everything" because piano technicians are usually better equipped to determine the condition of an instrument, and I mean no disrespect in saying that... it really is a unique perspective that I am just now beginning to appreciate as a pianist and apprentice technician.

I'm apprehensive because the add description is starkly different from what your technician apparently assessed: needing replacement hammers, key bushings, back checks, and regulation is not indicative of a proper rebuild. It sounds like sloppy work and/ or cutting corners, and really makes me wonder about the quality of its soundboard refurbishing and re-stringing job. Poor workmanship doesn't justify a higher price. And, while you can't expect to get a $40,000 rebuild job for $7,000 you can definitely get a newer used piano with less questions, and possibly fewer headaches.

Of course, please realize that this is my perspective and opinion, not indisputable fact.
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#1618595 - 02/12/11 09:23 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
mcnevnev Offline
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Registered: 01/29/11
Posts: 10
Bluthner's soundboard is one of its many unique qualities in that the crown is cylindrical rather then spherical. That particular Bluthner doesn't even have a crown.

With the other issues described in the ad and with the auction price at 4.5k currently (not completed) do you feel this would be a much better deal for a piano that someone couldn't hear or see prior to purchase, than one actually played and heard at a set price?

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#1618611 - 02/12/11 09:59 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: mcnevnev]
beethoven986 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/09
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Originally Posted By: mcnevnev
Bluthner's soundboard is one of its many unique qualities in that the crown is cylindrical rather then spherical. That particular Bluthner doesn't even have a crown.


This Bluethner doesn't have crown, either... because it has a carbon-fiber soundboard. It also has a WNG composite action. And, I'm sure it's one of the best sounding Bluethners in the world.

http://hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/pianosinstock.php?categories_id=3

Originally Posted By: mcnevnev
With the other issues described in the ad and with the auction price at 4.5k currently (not completed) do you feel this would be a much better deal for a piano that someone couldn't hear or see prior to purchase, than one actually played and heard at a set price?


It would depend on what the buyer intends to do with the piano. However, all you asked me to do was to find a (presumably playable) Bluethner for under $7,000. I did. In about five minutes.


Edited by beethoven986 (02/13/11 08:23 AM)
Edit Reason: I made an "oops".
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#1618748 - 02/13/11 06:24 AM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
David-G Online   content
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Loc: London
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
... And if you want to talk about "unique qualities" let's talk about how the rebuilder of the OP's piano did away with the Aliquot stringing...

This seems very unlikely. Many Bluthners were built without Aliquot strings. Including my own.

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#1618802 - 02/13/11 08:28 AM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: David-G]
beethoven986 Offline
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Oops. You're right. Though, I know of at least a few rebuilders who remove the aliquot stringing. There's actually (an unrestored) one sitting about 10 feet away from me.
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#1619071 - 02/13/11 03:12 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
mcnevnev Offline
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Registered: 01/29/11
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: mcnevnev
Bluthner's soundboard is one of its many unique qualities in that the crown is cylindrical rather then spherical. That particular Bluthner doesn't even have a crown.


This Bluethner doesn't have crown, either... because it has a carbon-fiber soundboard. It also has a WNG composite action. And, I'm sure it's one of the best sounding Bluethners in the world.

http://hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/pianosinstock.php?categories_id=3

Originally Posted By: mcnevnev
With the other issues described in the ad and with the auction price at 4.5k currently (not completed) do you feel this would be a much better deal for a piano that someone couldn't hear or see prior to purchase, than one actually played and heard at a set price?


It would depend on what the buyer intends to do with the piano. However, all you asked me to do was to find a (presumably playable) Bluethner for under $7,000. I did. In about five minutes.


My bad. I didn't realize the Bluthner on the eBay listing you posted had a carbon-fiber soundboard. The link for the Hurstwood Farms Bluthner that you feel may be the best sounding Bluthner in the world is going for 24k plus whatever the shipping and import fees one would incur to get it to the U.S., so the eBay piano might be quite a buy, especially if it only needs a little voicing work like you suggested.

I just recently joined the Piano Forum and after reading lots of different threads and posts, the one piece of advice that is given the most is to play a lot of different pianos and pick the one you like the best. Seems like that is what happened with this 1918 Bluthner......

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#1619254 - 02/13/11 07:02 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
David-G Online   content
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Loc: London
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
... This Bluethner doesn't have crown, either... because it has a carbon-fiber soundboard. It also has a WNG composite action. And, I'm sure it's one of the best sounding Bluethners in the world.

http://hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/pianosinstock.php?categories_id=3


Interesting-looking piano - as far as I can tell from the rather poor photo, the music desk seems to have been replaced by one not of Bluther design.

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#1619278 - 02/13/11 07:28 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1675
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


Sure they might show up on the internet in Ohio, New Jersey or Florida. But to actually play the piano in person, within a 90 minute drive in town, with a good pianist is everything.


While not for everyone, some people (even professional pianists) do actually conduct nationwide and even international searches, and end up buying a piano sight unseen.



I wouldn't spend $99 on a set of AKG 240 headphones or a Shure 58 mic without knowing what it sounds like, much less a high ticket,
VERY personal item like a Grand piano that might possibly stay with me for the rest for my life.

I probably know at least 50 world class piano players here in LA from all walks of musical life--Jazz, Classical, Latin/Salsa, Pop, RnB and a mix of all those styles. I'd be floored if any of them would buy an older piano off the net without laying hands on it.

Unless of course it was more of a business deal where they themselves were going to have work done to it and then turn around and sell for a profit.
But to use has their own personal practice or recording instrument, sorry but laugh
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#1619297 - 02/13/11 07:53 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: beethoven986]
BerndAB Offline
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Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 533
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Here's one that is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120682931788#ht_1494wt_1139

With some work, especially voicing, this would likely be a nice instrument for someone.


Hmm Beethoven,

were you aware of "built 1864"?
wink

I personally am a fan of super old grands, but..this seems not to be the most common "north american approach" to grand pianos..

(BTW & OT The best Bluthner I've ever played in my life was an end 1950ies 5ft.baby grand 153cm with double repetitions. The very most lovely even silk and smoothest action I ever had under my poor fingers.)

Boyz.. there is a huge difference in touch with the Patd. action versus dbl. engl. rep.

Patd. action - You love it, or you should leave it. If the hammer shanks and the Bluthner special abstracts need a replacement, the material plus labour is >> 4k EU ie. >>5 k USD min. This then might be the financial collapse for an old beloved Bluthner grand. Price today told by a german Bluthner specialist. Time borderline for pat. action is around 1920, to my humble knowledge. So the youngest grands w. patd. action are 90 yrs "young".. And!! maybe very fine pianos.

Restored ones 6ft. start around 10k EU. The baby grands are most sought-after, seldom that you may find one below of 12k EU which is >>15k USD. (besides the concert grands which are really rare)

Bluthner prices are high also in Germany also if they are old ones.

In Germany sometimes you will see Bluthner grands w. patd. action for less than 8k EU which is a good 10k USD - but they normally are not restored. Sometimes I see them on ebay asking 3k or 5k EU "only" but may be a lot of work... and eventually in need of an abstracts replacement.. uuhhh...
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#1619305 - 02/13/11 08:02 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: BerndAB]
beethoven986 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
Hi BerndAB,

Yes, I did see its age (I do like old pianos, too). But, it has had a lot of work done to it, apparently.
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#1619346 - 02/13/11 09:04 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
beethoven986 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


I wouldn't spend $99 on a set of AKG 240 headphones or a Shure 58 mic without knowing what it sounds like...


Really? That kind of pickiness is usually reserved for more prestigious pieces of equipment. It's got its place, I suppose, but I don't think I'd spend $99 on an SM58, period.


Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I probably know at least 50 world class piano players here in LA from all walks of musical life--Jazz, Classical, Latin/Salsa, Pop, RnB and a mix of all those styles. I'd be floored if any of them would buy an older piano off the net without laying hands on it.


At the sub 5k price point, you're usually looking at a piano that needs reconditioning or rebuilding, so hiring a local tech to verify its existence and condition would suffice. If your friend changes the hammers (or does other significant work), its sound, and possibly touch, will change, making your having played it before hand moot.

On the other end of the spectrum, let's say you find a 10 year old Bechstein concert grand on eBay, sold by legitimate dealer for 29,000USD, you might suck it up and just buy it. I've seen it happen. I've also seen a piano professor purchase a Steinway B from the US and move it to Canada. The Internet has changed how people buy pianos.

BTW, I also know plenty of world-class pianists wink


Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

Unless of course it was more of a business deal where they themselves were going to have work done to it and then turn around and sell for a profit.
But to use has their own personal practice or recording instrument, sorry but laugh


Piano flipping for profit? Goooooooood luck... it's hard to do.
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#1619392 - 02/13/11 10:20 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: mcnevnev]
beethoven986 Offline
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Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
Originally Posted By: mcnevnev


My bad. I didn't realize the Bluthner on the eBay listing you posted had a carbon-fiber soundboard.


Del, I hope you don't mind me quoting you:

"We ask about soundboard crown as if that were the right question and if we could just find the answer to this then we could solve all of our rebuilding problems. Do[es] this soundboard have crown? Can we “restore” crown? How much crown does the soundboard need? And on and on and on.

I think we’re asking the wrong questions. The question is not, "How much crown does this soundboard have?", but "Why does this soundboard need any crown at all?

The answer is complex and, because we tend to view all soundboards as being designed and constructed to the same basic principles, confusing. Unfortunately, not all soundboards are created equal and, while the rules of physics don’t change, the way we apply those rules to the various types of soundboard designs does change. It is not a one size fits all sort of world.

...But, very briefly, we are after a certain balance between soundboard mass and soundboard stiffness. In some types of soundboard construction internal perpendicular-to-grain compression plays a critical part in creating and maintaining the requisite stiffness. It other types of soundboard construction it does not.

The question we need to be asking is, “How stiff is the soundboard system we’re working with?” If the soundboard has adequate stiffness without any crown at all then it is still stiff enough and we can forget about crown. If a soundboard does not have enough stiffness even though there is a fair amount of crown left in the thing, then it is still not stiff enough and more crown won’t necessarily help.

In an existing piano the only way we really have—short of some rather complicated tests—to find out if the soundboard we’re working with has adequate stiffness is to listen to the piano before we take the thing apart. Specifically, we can listen to the balance between attack volume and the rate of sustain. If the attack volume is extremely bright and percussive and the rate of decay is very fast—even if the apparent sustain at a greatly reduced volume level is reasonably long—we have a fairly accurate indicator that something has happened over time to reduce the designed level of soundboard stiffness.

If we make this determination then the question becomes one of what, if anything, can we do about it. Any attempts to restore crown are doomed to failure. There is simply no way to put any meaningful amount of lost internal compression back into a collapsed soundboard panel. That leaves us with external choices. One of these is the surface epoxy saturation technique I described in some detail in several Piano Technicians Journal articles several years back. This does not make any attempt to restore any crown but it does add to the stiffness of the soundboard panel. Another is to add short, intermediate, ribs to the bottom of the soundboard in those areas that seem overly percussive and which exhibit a too-fast decay rate." ~Del Fandrich (PW, 2010)

Additionally:

"I don't know about the cylindrical soundboard. I have read what has been posted here in the past. It somewhat sounds like "marketing hype", but what do I know? I think that the tone probably has as much to do with the way the rim is built, and then an inner rim of sorts built on top of the soundboard, as anything." ~Roy Peters, RPT (PW, 2007)


Originally Posted By: mcnevnev
so the eBay piano might be quite a buy, especially if it only needs a little voicing work like you suggested.


Well, that's not quite what what I said, but OK.


Originally Posted By: mcnevnev
I just recently joined the Piano Forum and after reading lots of different threads and posts, the one piece of advice that is given the most is to play a lot of different pianos and pick the one you like the best. Seems like that is what happened with this 1918 Bluthner......


Yes, that's generally how it goes, but have you also seen posts that read something like, "I liked my piano a lot when I first got it, but now I don't"? Welcome to the forum.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
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#1619395 - 02/13/11 10:25 PM Re: Older Bluthner 6' 3" [Re: Dave Ferris]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
This sums up, perhaps more clearly, why I think this piano was a bad idea:

"Whenever rebuilding a piano it is important to keep the long-term expectation in mind. Even a partial re-build is a serious expense for most piano owners, and their expectation
will be that a "re-built" piano will last a long long time before it needs rebuilding again. When you have collected all your data, and have the thing apart and can look closely at what you have to work with, you have to always ask yourself how long the work you are going to do will last.

Just because the block has torque now with oversize pins, will the 82 year old block suddenly delaminate in two years when you have a very cold winter? You don't know. The same is true of the board. Just because you have crown now, you may not have it in a few years. Not replacing a board when the pianos value does not justify it is often valid, but the customer should be made to understand that a choice has been made and that there is a risk involved. And there is a risk for you also, since it is your name going on the piano. A Knabe that you have rebuilt becomes a Knabe-Viviano and if it does not hold up, or if looks like a cheesy rebuild to some future technician who comes to tune it, your reputation that will suffer." ~Craig Miller, RPT (PW, 2010)
_________________________
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