Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em

I like your reasoning, Jeff, and it reminds me a bit of the way I extend my temperament. The area above F4 has taken me way too long, but now I move faster through that section, because I know a fifth above that, if there are errors below, the 4ths and 5ths wont work together. Then I can easily go back and adjust the interval below that cause the problem.

I am more intent on tuning ET than tuning one particular note to a reference.

The other day I was tuning in an auditorium and did something I rarely do. I was part way up the treble and checked with my Korg what kind of stretch I was tuning. Oddly, there was no stretch at all! Then I checked C4 with the Korg and then the fork. Sure enough, the lights in the auditorium had warmed up the piano strings enough to make the pitch drop about one hertz. I guess when I was all done I should have retuned A4 so that it would be at a standard, even if it was off from the rest of the piano.

A piano is constantly changing pitch. Sure, start where you think will cause the piano to end up where you want it, but I see no reason to obsess about it. I choose a reference that works conveniently.

Or look at it another way, which piano is in tune: the one with A4 at 440hz or the one with A3 at 220hz? They are equally in tune: only one note is correct. A440 is a reference to determine the pitches of all the notes, not just one. But with a piano, even theoretically, that doesn’t quite work, and you know it!

You explained fine, I understood what you meant. Let me try again this time.

Since F3-F4 is the preferred temperament octave, why not start with a note that is convenient for that octave. When tuning with 4ths and 5ths, I believe C4 is the most convenient. When tuning with an initial set of CM3s, A4 is probably the most convenient.

See my last post to Gadzar about how I look at choosing a particular note to be “correct” when they all cannot be.

They all cannot be correct, but the standard recognized "correct" pitch for A4 is 440 cycles/second, so A4 had better be at 440!

The standard asks for A4 at 440 hz. We, as professional piano tuners, have no choice about that, otherwise we do not adhere to the standard.

There is no such a thing like "my standard is to tune C4 from a C5 source, at watever pitch it happens to fall."

And of course you can not only tune one single note to the standard, all the piano must be in tune with it self, having A4 at 440 hz.

If you are going to tune the piano at a different pitch, due to seasonal issues or to other considerations, that's fine, it is a personal decision. But if you choose to pitch correct the piano, why do you take a non-standard pitch? That is nonsense.

That is denying the definition of "standard".

The standard is there for one reason: to have all pianos tuned at the exact same pitch, each and every time!

Rafael,

Your sense of duty is admirable but Standard Pitch, first of all, is defined as A4 at A440, +/- 4 cents. It is like the speed limit on a highway. Everyone knows what it is but has their own personal reasons for violating it nearly every time, for whatever reason. Even law enforcement does not bother within a certain margin.

The issue of absolute and exact pitch comes up when tuning exams are given at PTG annual conventions. That is the time when we really do want everything to be perfect in order to provide a fair and impartial model tuning against which an examinee must compete.

It is always in Summer; the weather outside is usually hot and humid; the piano is usually brand new. As soon as it arrives, the piano is placed into a hotel room where the air conditioning is adjusted to maximum cooling. If the air conditioning were allowed to cycle on and off, it would be destabilizing to the piano, so it is allowed to cool constantly.

This can make the room be quite cool. I have experienced certain circumstances where people were ordered out of the room. Too many people create too much body heat and therefore may affect the pitch of the piano. Does anyone ever get so discriminating under usual circumstances?

Over the course of a few days, an exam piano is tuned repeatedly until such time that the master tuning committee can attempt the ultimate in perfection upon it. I have heard many anecdotes of drifting pitch during these events. The sun may shine in the window on the piano. Too many people may be in the room. The air conditioning may fail, etc.

It used to be that a committee would tune the whole piano, then measure the exact pitch of each note. Now, they measure the pitch of each note as it is determined, or at least very shortly thereafter. If, at any time, the pitch is seen by the very sensitive ETD to drift by the smallest amount, the original values are "restored". Each time the ETD is used to restore the original values, whatever has been restored in that way must once again be aurally verified, according to the rules.

These procedures are frustrating and often painstakingly long and involve only one string per note. Just imagine what really happens in real life!

I have had many experiences where I tuned a concert grand at the dealer very carefully, only to find upon arrival at the theater to find that the pitch had shifted. It was as if all the preparatory work I had done was to no avail except that with my ETD, I had recorded the exact values for each pitch. Now, even though I had to change the pitch of all or most of the piano, I had a record from which to work and it served me well.

I could do my tuning and be satisfied with it under stage work lights alone. Hours later, the pitch may have changed again slightly and under hot performance lights, would change again as the performance ensued. Yet, whatever I had managed to do still sufficed even if the A4 never really was exactly at 440 when the performance occurred.

One can only do whatever one can do at the moment. One can only hope that one's efforts will be well received afterward.

Bill, all that is certainly true, but it's more of a treatise on what can happen to a piano after it's tuned in a real life situation. The issue here is what constitutes a piano in tune at standard pitch, and the answer of course is A4 should be at 440 cycles/second. If, due to choosing a different note as a reference and tempering from there, A4 is instead at 439 or 441, then the piano was not tuned to standard pitch. Even if C4 is dead on with the fork.

How does this sound:

If C4 is dead on with the fork and A4 is not within 4 cents of 440hz, then the piano is not tuned in ET.

Works for me!

Darn! Now what are we going to argue about?

lol Jeff! I'm sure we'll find something!

Actually, I don't even call it arguing. Spirited discussion is more like it. I've gained something positive from each one we've had so far! Your ideas cause me to think and rethink; a good thing!

The standard of A4 at 440 hz. has nothing to do with the temperament you are setting. What if you are tuning another temperament? In such a case the instrument has still to be tuned at 440! I mean, the piano can be tuned to a 1/7th comma meantone, or whatever temperament you want, but it still has to be tuned at the A4=440 standard.


So, what you say about



is surely true, that is precisely why you can't say the piano is at 440 hz if you tuned C4 to a C5 fork.



You have not answered. And I may know why.

Perhaps, is it only because you want to keep stuck to a more than 100 years old tuning sequence, which no longer adheres to current standards?

You can’t say a piano is tuned to 440hz. You can only say A4 is tuned to 440hz.



Yes, I did answer:

Which is the goal, right? A = 440hz as the reference, with the rest of the piano in correct intonation relative to that. So why not get A4 DEAD ON?

Because it really doesn't matter. It is a piano, not a keyboard.

The most convenient? Why? It is not the standard to set the piano's pitch!

You can easily find a sequence of 5ths and 4ths starting with A4 to tune the F3-F4 temperament octave! In fact there are many of such sequences used by pro tuners.



So a keyboard must be at A 440 and a piano can be at whatever pitch you like? For you, it doesn't matter?


A piano must be at standard pitch for a number of reasons, to play with other instruments and/or with singers, to sound at its best, it was designed to be tuned at this pitch, etc...

Come on, give me a break! What are you talking about?

What I am talking about is neither A4 nor any other note will stay exactly at wherever it is put to start with. For this reason the accuracy of the starting note is just not that important, but an exacting ET is (at least to me). And before we get off into the ridiculous argument about ET being impossible, let me give my goal in tuning ET. All 4ths should be tempered alike and all 5ths should be tempered alike.

It matters a great deal what note you start with within a given octave when tuning 4ths and 5ths, which is the only way I can pursue my goal of ET on most pianos. It is best to have certain M3s available at certain steps and at certain positions. A very important check for 4th and 5ths tuning is the M3s below and above the starting note. These should be checked with M3s chromatically above and below them. With an F-F temperament octave (which is important as to avoid having the temperament include notes on the bass bridge) these chromatic M3 checks are available when starting with C, but not with A.

But if we want to be obsessed with a standard, we should tune to what most instruments will end up tuning to: A# (Bb concert pitch is used by all school bands.)

If the technician can tune an accurate equal temperament off of a C fork, the A will be very close, to 440. Whether it is "close enough" comes down to the tuners own tuning philosophy. There are a few tuners that I call "A440 Fanatics" who argue that the piano must be at dead on A440 or the piano isn't tuned. Others are comfortable letting the pitch float anywhere from 438-442.

There have been discussions on other forums about orchestras or artists who ask the tuner for A441, A442, or even A443! Some tuners have reportedly smiled and nodded, and then proceeded to tune A440 and received no complaints.

In the older version of the tuning exam, pitch was not tested on its own but was part of the midrange section. Some tuners were able to pass the pitch section even though they used a C fork, so it is very possible to get A440 in an acceptable range from a C fork. However, since the exam uses A as the reference, it is safer to use an A fork. But that is an exam situation, not the real world.

My own tunings, because I prefer a lot of stretch, are probably at a438 in the low bass and 442 in the high treble!

Personally I think some tuners fixate too much on pitch. In my experience these are usually machine tuners. They see the display moving a little and they can't help but want to stop it! If the pitch is close I much prefer just to "iron it out" where it is, and spend the extra time doing things the client will really notice: voicing being a huge one.

Like others have said, the pitch may be at 440 today, but it may be 439.5 tomorrow and 441 next week. Our job is to make the piano sound & play better. That's what our clients pay for: A higher quality experience when playing their piano. 99.9% of them could care less if the piano is at 439 or 441.

That being said, you should BE ABLE to set the A to 440 if the need arises.

This is absolutly ridiculous! If it were so, then why bother to tune an "exacting ET", or any other temperament? Why to tune the piano, if none of the notes you tune will stay where you left it?

Nonsense!

For my part, when I tune a piano, I put A4 at 440 hz +/- 0.2 cents, and from this single note, which I tune and retune as necessary, I tune the rest of the piano at any of the several temperaments I use to tune pianos, mostly ET, EBVT III, Moore, Broadwood Best, WM III and Young.

And of course, the notes stay where I've put them! At least for a reasonable while...

Just as an experiment, I went out in the shop and did a little tuning on a 48" upright. I set C523 off of an electronic metronome, and then tuned several intervals so that I could set my A. Then I measured the A with tunelab to see how close I was. I did this three times - the first time my A came out to 440.5 the Second time and third times at 440.6.

I'm sure with a little more practice I could narrow that gap a little more.

Gadzar, I respect your sense of duty, but nobody can hear within .2 cents. That's in the realm of "it doesn't make a difference". or "a difference that makes no difference IS no difference".

It's a bit like leveling keys. How level is level? And beyond a certain point, who cares? You could get out those .001 punchings and spend an extra 2 hours perfecting it, but after a week of heavy playing and some humidity changes - poof! That level of accuracy has been terminated.