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#1632483 - 03/03/11 01:03 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
I've never said that!

Where did you read it?

I tune by hearing beats, and I never tune haphazard 4ths, or anyother interval. And I even don't understand what you are talking about with: "feeling them through your fingers".

As I say I play runs of M3s, P4s, P5, M6, M10s, M17s, etc.

And I check conntiguous intervals CM3s, CP4s and Cp5s.

And I always correct any note that sticks out its head! After that I don't need the outside M6 inside M3 test.


In one thing you are right: I can not have a productive discussion with you, as you think you are the only one perfect piano tuner in this world, you are always right, and the rest of us, mortals, we are always wrong.



Edited by Gadzar (03/03/11 01:16 PM)
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1632522 - 03/03/11 01:54 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

Among other places, it was in the Topic where you posted a video of an equal temperament on your piano. If you can recall the name of the Topic, I should be able to point out what you posted.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1632536 - 03/03/11 02:07 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Here is the post I remember from this Topic: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1347183/4/Does%20a

Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Thanks Tooner.

Let's see:

C3 and C#3 are on the bass bridge. Wound bichords.

D3 is the first note on the treble bridge, it is also a wound bichord unison. D#3 is too a wound bichord.

Plain trichords start with E3. So it is the region where jumps in iH are to be expected and some compromises must be done. At that respect I always give priority to RBIs over SBIs.

After reading your comment I've checked these notes and there is a smooth uniform progression of M3s, and the fifth D3-A3 is indeed a little busy compared to its chromatic neighbours, but I guess I tuned it that way because I worked using M3s.

The other two notes F#3 and A#3 present almost the same problem: correct progression of M3s with not so clean SBIs.

You have a good ear! The quality of the recording is poor. In fact I hear many more things at the piano than are present in the video.

For the M6 inside M3 tests, yes, they were too quick. I didn't noticed that until I watched the video. At the piano the beat rates are much more discernible. It is as if the vibrations felt with our fingers were helping the ear.


No, I did not have all the details correct. But the things you wrote do not add up.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1632557 - 03/03/11 02:31 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
Yes, you don't have the details correct! And you can't call this "tuning haphazard 4ths", nor "tuning feeling through your fingers"!

So you never make compromises?

And if you ever make compromises then you are tuning haphazard intervals?

And for the fingers, do you think we hear the same things at the piano than in a video? I said it clearly, but you seem to not understand my english:

Originally Posted By: Gadzar
The quality of the recording is poor. In fact I hear many more things at the piano than are present in the video.


From what I said you take out and keep only what you want, and you change the meaning of my words to what you want to understand.

The whole subject of this thread was ET, of course no piano is perfect and I made compromises at the break (don't you?).

When compromising, we have to sacrifice something. You have always said that you prefer to sacrifice RBIs progression over SBIs, does that mean that you are doing sloppy tunings or haphazard intervals or tuning faulty ET?

I insist I never tune haphazard 4ths and I don't tune feeling through my fingers but hearing beats.
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

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http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1632606 - 03/03/11 03:43 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: rysowers]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: rysowers
All chords sound the same in ET?? This is preposterous. The thirds noticeably and consistently slow down as you move from treble into tenor. This naturally creates distinction between the keys. The key of F most certainly sounds different then the key of B flat.

This blabber about "all keys sounding the same" is pure fantasy. Not only do the speed of the thirds change, but the fact that the pitch is higher and lower has a huge effect on color and feeling.


Unfortunately (because I like to have arguments for UT) I have to agree. Even in ET there are key colors. If we restrict ourselves to the piano keys a 4th or fifth apart will sound most different in this respect.

I don't have absolute pitch but a piece transposed down a semitone sounds subtly mellower, though I can't reliably identify if it has been transposed without hearing both within say an hour.

UT of course adds on top of this. If I do hear F# major sounding sour in for example Werckmeister 3 that is a tuning effect. I do hear that and it sounds unpleasant and out of tune to me.

Kees

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#1632616 - 03/03/11 03:58 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
I see it totally in a different way:

Key color in UTs is another thing than merely increasing frequences when going up a semitone.

Key color, when you step up a semitone in UTs, is a drastic change in the interrelation between intervals, that does not exist in ET.

It is the lack of such drastic, abrupt changes between keys that makes ET "colorless" when compared to UTs.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1632664 - 03/03/11 04:50 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I see it totally in a different way:

Key color in UTs is another thing than merely increasing frequences when going up a semitone.

Key color, when you step up a semitone in UTs, is a drastic change in the interrelation between intervals, that does not exist in ET.

It is the lack of such drastic, abrupt changes between keys that makes ET "colorless" when compared to UTs.


Rafael,

You are entirely correct in the way that you have stated the above. In fact, you did it better than I could. Although there is an infrequent but minor flaw in your English which gives away the fact that English is not your primary language, you write it better than most people in this forum.

I have heard these same arguments that ET somehow has "key color" from ET only proponents now for 25 years. You can explain it once, twice or maybe three times but after that, you may as well be talking to a brick wall. If they like the sound they get from ET, that is fine with me. It is considered "standard practice" and they have that on their side and to their advantage.

I no longer respond to certain people who write in here but I report their efforts and "bullying", as I have been accused of when the language gets rude and insulting enough to do so. The arguments presented by some ET only advocates clearly show to me a lack of foundation. They also show a lack of experience, otherwise these arguments would not be made, over and over again.

I will say this. The recent Journal series was highly insulting and undignified in its presentation coming less than a year after the demise of the single most important and eminent researcher on tuning history there has ever been. The insult came in the very first part of the series and then it was heaped on again in the end.

The one statement that raised my eyebrows early on was that "meantone has no color" because all of the fifths are tuned alike. This is no less ridiculous than ET proponents arguing that ET has "color" because each Major third beats differently.

I think it is time to let this thread die. It was originally about a novice tuner's perception that she could hear and handle 4ths & 5ths easier and more reliably than she could any of the RBI's. She was informed about the importance of studying and making use of the RBI's. She clearly understood what was said and I am sure that it was well impressed upon her.

I suggest that you simply not respond to the certain individuals who keep on "poking" you, misquote you and otherwise try to provoke you into a heated discussion. You know what you are doing and obviously have a very thorough understanding of it. It would be a better idea to engage in conversations with the other individuals who have similar interests or are at least open minded about learning and understanding them rather than to keep arguing with people who don't want to know what they don't know.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#1632698 - 03/03/11 05:17 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: DoelKees]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: rysowers
All chords sound the same in ET?? This is preposterous. The thirds noticeably and consistently slow down as you move from treble into tenor. This naturally creates distinction between the keys. The key of F most certainly sounds different then the key of B flat.

This blabber about "all keys sounding the same" is pure fantasy. Not only do the speed of the thirds change, but the fact that the pitch is higher and lower has a huge effect on color and feeling.


Unfortunately (because I like to have arguments for UT) I have to agree. Even in ET there are key colors. If we restrict ourselves to the piano keys a 4th or fifth apart will sound most different in this respect.

I don't have absolute pitch but a piece transposed down a semitone sounds subtly mellower, though I can't reliably identify if it has been transposed without hearing both within say an hour.


@Kees, Ryan: I can't agree on this. The "colors" you are talking about are a matter of differences in pitch, well known to show tune composers transposing the last chorus up 1/2 step or a whole step.

But if you take a theoretically perfect ET and record a piece in, lets say, C major, then slow the recording down so it sounds a tritone lower (F# major), the beatrate of the slowed down C4-E4 M3 should naturally sound the way the beat rate of a F#3-A#3 did on the original piano.

These are not key color differences to me, just the effect you get when you move something up and down in pitch.

The closest analogy i can come up with is gray-scale (ET) compared to color. You can adjust brightness and contrast ( = transpose), and yes it is brighter higher up and more mellow lower down, but it's still gray-scale.

Now, I do personally like gray-scale, too, but it has its strength precisely in the lack of color - Trying to impose colors where there are none is just taking away from that strength.


Edited by pppat (03/03/11 05:20 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
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#1632749 - 03/03/11 06:22 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thank you, Patrick,

Again, a very excellent perspective on the subject of supposed "color" in ET. It was explained much better than I could have.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1632814 - 03/03/11 07:43 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
ivorycanary Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/15/10
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

I think it is time to let this thread die. It was originally about a novice tuner's perception that she could hear and handle 4ths & 5ths easier and more reliably than she could any of the RBI's. She was informed about the importance of studying and making use of the RBI's. She clearly understood what was said and I am sure that it was well impressed upon her.


Yes, thank-you, I appreciate the value of all intervals and really appreciated all of the advice. I've also learned more then I need to know about petty squabbling, so Gentlemen, please let's take it elsewhere and bid a good-night to this topic. A sincere and heartfelt thank-you to all of you who took the time to reply to my original query.

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#1632824 - 03/03/11 07:54 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
"Color" is what we perceive through the cone cells in our retina. There is a term "tone color" which mainly relates to the relative prominence of partials in an instrument (i.e. "timbre").

Applying this word to tunings is too vague to base any discussion upon in my opinion.

I don't think anybody really disagrees (apart from semantics) with what both Ryan and Pat wrote.

Kees

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#1632825 - 03/03/11 07:55 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

I suggest that you simply not respond to the certain individuals who keep on "poking" you, misquote you and otherwise try to provoke you into a heated discussion. You know what you are doing and obviously have a very thorough understanding of it. It would be a better idea to engage in conversations with the other individuals who have similar interests or are at least open minded about learning and understanding them rather than to keep arguing with people who don't want to know what they don't know.


Amen.
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DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1632884 - 03/03/11 08:48 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
The one statement that raised my eyebrows early on was that "meantone has no color" because all of the fifths are tuned alike. This is no less ridiculous than [...]

I think he meant all the usable keys sound the same in the sense that the 3'ds and fifths are the same size. But MT sounds very "color"full melodically because of the large size differences between the semitones, which I assume you refer to.

Kees

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#1632894 - 03/03/11 09:01 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
I think it goes far beyond that!

Because in fact not all of the fifths are the same size in meantone! Only 11 of them are the same size and the 12th is a wolf.

That implies also that not all of the thirds are the same size, there are (if my mind doesn´t fool me) 4 diminished fourths, which can not be considered as major thirds because they are tremendously tempered (in some cases).

That gives alot of color between different keys. And in fact some keys are so colorfull than they are unplayable!



Edited by Gadzar (03/03/11 09:13 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1632896 - 03/03/11 09:11 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Gadzar]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Rafael, I wrote "usable keys". Those M3's and P5 you refer to are not usable.

Kees

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#1632899 - 03/03/11 09:19 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
Oops! I missed that. Sorry.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1633135 - 03/04/11 04:39 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 678
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
If I may chime in at the dying end of this diverging thread (maybe): I do not have any sense of key color or character resulting from temperament. I do not care if a piano is in EBVT or ET as I am far more concerned with tonal quality and performance interpretations when listening to a given piece of piano music. I truly believe that most musicians would not care either, only tuners who are bogged down in technicalities and loosing the meaning of musical appreciation. I do not get, or desire, any sense of tension and release with contrasting interval purity. I simply like to have all intervals as clean sounding as reasonably possible and aiming towards ET does the trick although Bill Bremmer's temperament is well within my tolerance. To me, progressive M3s do not have to be perfectly continuous, only that they do not have faster below or slower above, that 4th, 5th, 12th etc sound purish to very slow beating in the right direction, that octaves, 15th etc sound clean, and most importantly that unisons are as clean as possible. Then it is over to the tone of the instrument and the performer.
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Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1633169 - 03/04/11 06:59 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I tune 4ths and 5ths while checking M3rds as tests of the tempering. An ET can indeed be tuned that way.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1633177 - 03/04/11 07:24 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Gadzar]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
…..

I insist I never tune haphazard 4ths and I don't tune feeling through my fingers but hearing beats.


As I understand the following quotes, yes you do!

Originally Posted By: Gadzar
…..

After reading your comment I've checked these notes and there is a smooth uniform progression of M3s, and the fifth D3-A3 is indeed a little busy compared to its chromatic neighbours, but I guess I tuned it that way because I worked using M3s.

The other two notes F#3 and A#3 present almost the same problem: correct progression of M3s with not so clean SBIs.

…..


Originally Posted By: Gadzar
…..

For the M6 inside M3 tests, yes, they were too quick. I didn't noticed that until I watched the video. At the piano the beat rates are much more discernible. It is as if the vibrations felt with our fingers were helping the ear.


My point is I do not see the difference between one error in ET and another.

Another way to put it is "a pot calling a kettle black."

Here is another example:

Originally Posted By: Gadzar
…..

In my opinion he shouldn't be tuning pianos. I wonder why he wanted to make these videos and put them on the web to have all the world looking how bad he tunes pianos!

…..


Originally Posted By: Gadzar
…..

In one thing you are right: I can not have a productive discussion with you, as you think you are the only one perfect piano tuner in this world, you are always right, and the rest of us, mortals, we are always wrong.



Gadzar, you are the one condemning the abilities of others, not me!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1633852 - 03/05/11 12:24 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
Oh yes, of course this is you! You are questioning and condemning MY abilities.

At least, I had the courage to post one of my tunings, I can not expect you to do the same because I suppose you are afraid to do so and be bashed by people like yourself.

I believed you didn't want to discuss with me, don't you? Didn't you say that?

So why are you now discussing with me? You have deviated the discussion, I believe because you ran out of answers.

You have not answered yet:

Is the outside M6 inside M3 so valuable that without it only faulty ET can be tuned? Aren´t there more efficient and direct tests to refine our temperament setting, i.e. chromatic runs of different intervals, contiguous intervals checking?

Never mind. I don't want to discuss with you anymore. What you say and think don't bother me. Tune your pianos the way you want, say what you want and let me be!

From now on, I will ignore you.






Edited by Gadzar (03/05/11 12:55 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1633886 - 03/05/11 01:33 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Gadzar]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Jeff:
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
At least, I had the courage to post one of my tunings, I can not expect you to do the same because I suppose you are afraid [etc...]

I for one would love to see/hear one of Jeff's tunings. All this stuff about using 4ths and 5ths to determine the octave is fascinating but not so easy to do. Much easier to decide on F3 A3 C#4 F4 A4 initially and then base everything on that. Even that is not so easy I find. Jeff? Please?

Kees

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#1633997 - 03/05/11 08:36 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I like 5ths as clean as I can get 'em, and that's what I shoot for. I love a piano where I can get them almost pure.
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http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1636365 - 03/08/11 07:46 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Folks:

Sorry, I do not have the facilities to post videos. And if I did I don’t think I would bother. It is a “tar-baby” I don’t want to get sucked into.

Besides if you can hear the quality of SBIs it should not be too difficult to tune C4, F3, F4 and listen; then A#3 and listen; then G3, G4 and listen. If you cannot hear the quality of SBIs, then I do not know how a video would help.

Believe it or not, my point is NOT about one tuning being a better ET than another. It is about understanding the relationships between M3s, M6s and P4s. I read certain things that would be politely explained as an “Indulgent Mystery”.

So when I say that I cannot have a productive conversation with someone that scoffs at the inside-outside test, says that they can tune progressive M3s and M6s but the P4s are not consistent (even when dealing with iH), I am not criticizing their tuning. That is up to the customer, and no one else. I am saying that I cannot discuss tuning with them. I would need to suspend the belief in the M3-M6 test for a P4.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1636373 - 03/08/11 08:03 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Hitherto, I was only aware that the inside M3 (e.g. G3-B3) and outside M6 (F3-D4) should beat at more or less the same rate. But now I read that they actually test for a P4. Given that none of the test notes F3, G3, B3 and D4 form a P4, which P4 would this be, and what does the test prove (disprove), and how?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1636391 - 03/08/11 08:32 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mark:

Here is an example: The difference in beat speed between the M3 F3-A3 and the M6 F3-D4 is the beat speed of the P4 A3-D4. When you consider the partial matches that are involved, you should see that it is much like any of the octave tests. There are tests for the 3:2 P5 and 6:4 P5 also.

When this soaks into your mind a bit, consider how it could be possible that a temperament would have truly progressive M3s and M6s but inconsistent P4s.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1636422 - 03/08/11 09:12 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeff,

I didn't realize you were talking about a M3 and M6 with a common (bottom) note. I was under the impression that you were referring to the inside M3 outside M6 test.

Regarding progressive M3s and M6s but inconsistent P4s, the only way I could see this happening is if the RBIs don't progress evenly, e.g. (hypothetically)

F3-A3: 7 bps
F#3-A#3: 7.6 bps
G3-B3: 7.7 bps (not 8.2) - caused by B3 being slightly flat
G#3-C4: 8.8 bps
A3-C#4: 9.4 bps
A#3-D4: 10.0 bps
B3-D#4: 10.6 bps
C4-E4: 11.7 bps (not 11.2) - caused by E4 being slightly sharp
C#4-F4: 11.8

The G3-B3 and C4-E4 M3s are still progressive, but actually half a bps from their ideal width. Similarly, I would expect M6s still to be progressive (albeit not evenly). But the B3-E4 P4 would be a full 1 bps too wide, which (I think) would easily throw it out of progression.

On the other hand, if there is indeed an even progression of RBIs, then in my understanding, the SBIs have to be progressive as well. To my mind, it comes down to the definition of "truly progressive", the term you used.

[Edit: for my part, as a beginner, I doubt that I could discern and control the evenness of RBI progression so finely that I would automatically get progressing SBIs as a result.]


Edited by Mark R. (03/08/11 09:17 AM)
Edit Reason: given in post
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#1636454 - 03/08/11 09:53 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mark:

I doubt anyone could get SBIs to be truly progressive!

A rule of thumb is to divide the tempering of the interval in cents by 16. (The twelfth root of 2, minus 1, is about 1/16...) This will give you how much one note can be moved in an ideal interval to make the interval beat at the same speed as the next higher or lower ideal interval. For RBIs this is about one cent. For SBIs it is only 1/8 of a cent! To guarantee a given interval is truly progressive the accuracy would have to be four times as great because of the possibility of multiple errors. But in reality I think twice the accuracy would usually work, with a little bit of fudging if need be.
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#1636520 - 03/08/11 11:31 AM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Mark R.]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Regarding progressive M3s and M6s but inconsistent P4s, the only way I could see this happening is if the RBIs don't progress evenly, e.g. (hypothetically


Mark, there is a way where you can have evenly progressive M3s and inconsistent P4ths.

The octave can be divided in four sets of contiguous major thirds as follows:

1. F3-A3-C#4
2.F#3-A#3-D4
3. G3-B3-D#4
4. G#3-C4-E4

Each one of this four sets has no common notes with the other three.

So each M3 in a set can be tuned to the desired beat rate, even if a set is not in tune with the others. You can have a perfect pogression of M3s and random P4s.

Of course as soon as you play a run of chromatic 4ths or if you test the contiguous 4ths, you will notice the errors.

As I said before for a correct temperament RBIs and SBIs are necessary, you can not rely only in one of them.

The outside M6 inside M3 test is of no help here. It will show you that something is wrong, but you'll have to do other tests to determine which notes are to be retuned.
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#1636544 - 03/08/11 12:02 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Mexico City
In theory, as the numbers 7 and 12 have no common divisor, you can tune a circle of 5ths, wich are 7 semitones apart.

But, the human been (ear) has not enough accuraty to correctly temper the circle of 5ths. Even the most seasoned piano tuners using a 5ths/4ths sequence have to check with RBIs to adjust the correct size of their 5ths/4ths.

In fact, it was until RBIs were included in the tuning sequence that true ET was historically achieved in the beginning of 20th Century.
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Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1636585 - 03/08/11 12:41 PM Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Gadzar:

What point are you trying to make?
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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