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I have an 8 year old student who has had 6 months of lessons. She is very enthusiastic about lessons, yet cries easily. She has worked hard and recently started PA 2A. The problem is that sometimes she needs to work on rhythm...and needs another week with a piece.
When I tell her to count she refuses to count out loud. So we shake the rhythm separately from playing it. (She has gotten to tears in previous lessons, and her mother said this happens at school.) If I do not check off a piece that has been assigned, she gets all choked up and begs for one more time to play it.
After her last lesson I explained to child and parent that pieces may need more than 1 week of work now that pieces are not as simple. (I went ahead and put checks on two pieces I wanted her to review, in order to prevent a crying episode. Instead I just told her, I'm checking these off but I want you to review them.)
Any suggestions about how to get a child to slow down and do it right? Any way to explain that more time is needed, accurate counting is needed, but it's not a failure for the child? Really, this child works.
It's probably time to get out some rhythm cards and let her know she must count out loud.
It's also occurred to me to assign a piece and write: correct notes correct timing dynamics (etc.) I'm thinking that this way she could get one or two checks along with an assignment being repeated.
Any suggestions?
Last edited by Ann in Kentucky; 02/05/11 03:26 PM.
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As I look over my post, I see that the crying is manipulative. I don't want to let this be a case of the tail wagging the dog.
So I will insist that she count audibly (especially where needed). She'll say "Do I HAVE to?" and make a big deal out of it. But I'll have to just say "Yes". And slow down as much as it takes.
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Ann, many and perhaps most students come to lessons with the public school model of learning in their heads. You do a problem, you move onto the next one; you read a chapter, you move on to the next chapter. Creative arts and motor skill development doesn't happen that way. Very early on, we must introduce the student to the concept of continual refinement. I shudder when a student suggests he's finished up a piece. Oh, really? You've achieved musical perfection? Well, let me engage a concert hall.
Normally, I will play the piece back to the student mimicking their performance, then play it again this time with some musicality. We discuss the two, what was different, how to improve the first example to make it more like the second. Refinement takes time and focus and hearing. Even students who are in the earliest stages of learning can still hear differences and can begin the process of learning how to refine their performances from week to week.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Thanks John! The word "refinement" will be useful. I'll let the child and parent know we will be continually refining pieces. "Refinement takes time and focus and hearing". I've got that written down so I'll know what to say next time.
It also occurred to me to let this child know that we will pick one or two pieces each week for refinement. In other words she can know that no matter what, we will be choosing some pieces to stay with longer than a week.
It will be so much better to say we are refining a piece, instead of reviewing.
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I have a student very much like this and even in PA 2A. She understands that she's working on harder pieces and that they should take more time. She is a perfectionist and will sometimes have melt-downs. The latest episode came as a result of her knowing that it sounded bad, but also realizing that she didn't practice the way I instructed to make it sound good. She is a perfectionist and I think this is where she's hitting a road block.
It was at that point that I told her I'd make a bargain. If she promised to practice everything the way I suggested (including every day for at least 45 minutes, counting out loud, etc.), and if she came into her lesson the following week and couldn't play better, then I would call myself a "bad teacher." I get along very well with this child and she enjoys her lessons, so I know it's not something that she would go out of her way to be deceptive to prove me wrong. Anyways, she kind of giggled at that and said, "Really? You'd say you're a bad teacher if I don't improve with practicing every day and counting out loud?" She left agreeing to do that. The following week, when she walked in the door I asked her if I was a bad teacher and she laughed and said, "No, I really think I did well this week." Her pieces were much, much more prepared, and she was much more confident.
This past week, she practiced as she was told, and then I challenged her to try to play "Funny Event" hands together (which she had learned hands separately). She hemmed and hawed and tried everything she could to get out of it, but she finally gave in when I said, "Either you do it now when I'm here to help you with any problems, or you do it at home alone when no one is there to help." She finally sat down and tried. I pointed out to her that whatever the LH does, the RH copies an octave higher. To her amazement, she was able to get through the song with very little difficulty. She even said that this song would be easy to memorize, because she'd only have to memorize 8 measures due to the RH copying and the repeated material. She left saying it was her best lesson yet.
I think it's important to understand if the crying comes from trying to manipulate you, or from disappointment in themselves for not being able to do it, or thinking they're not able.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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Counting out loud can be really difficult. I mean, really difficult.
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Counting out loud can be really difficult. I mean, really difficult. We've discussed this point here before. I absolutely agree!
Du holde Kunst...
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Morodiene, thanks for sharing your creativity in teaching!
Yes, on second thought the crying is not out of an intention to manipulate a situation. I expect it comes from a sense of personal failure when perfection is not reached. Still, I want to be careful not to let the crying keep me from doing what I think is best for the student, even when she doesn't like it.
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Counting out loud can be really difficult. I mean, really difficult. We've discussed this point here before. I absolutely agree! Maybe I'll switch to Ta Ta (quarters) and tiki tiki (8th). Does that seem to help anyone count? Easier than 1 2 3 4 and (etc.)? I may have missed some of the counting discussions. Sorry if it's a repeat for some of you.
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Counting out loud can be really difficult. I mean, really difficult. We've discussed this point here before. I absolutely agree! Maybe I'll switch to Ta Ta (quarters) and tiki tiki (8th). Does that seem to help anyone count? Easier than 1 2 3 4 and (etc.)? I may have missed some of the counting discussions. Sorry if it's a repeat for some of you. Yes, counting is hard for everyone. Some have more trouble with it than others, but in the past I've tried to use different methods and they're all still as hard. I have arrived at a point where I feel that even if they don't practice counting out loud all the time, they know enough to be able to identify what the rhythmic value is and understand the relationships between the notes. So in the end they walk away with the ability to learn a rhythm. It is a constant struggle but one that I feel is very important to address. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be learned and attempted.
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Ann, I use the tiki ta ta method with my very young students and it works well for rhythm issues. As soon as they start to get it, I begin mixing in counting with numbers, first, just the length of the note, then measure counts (1-2-3-4, etc.)
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Ann, I use the tiki ta ta method with my very young students and it works well for rhythm issues. I do, too.
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I almost always use the ta method as well, but I had a college student for whom nothing worked until she said "walk" for quarters and "quick step" for 8ths.
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From the beginning, I tell students that most pieces take several weeks to learn well. Or I just keep assigning the piece. When it is done well, I ask them to sign their name on it. Then they must review it for one more week. They know the pattern. I haven't gotten any complaints because they almost always have one new piece, two medium pieces and one old piece. You might also tell her that because it was so good, you will want to hear it again the following week. Perhaps you could record it for her.
I use ta for quarter notes, ta ya for half notes, ta teh for eighth notes, ta yateh for dotted quarter/eighth note combinations (in Christmas music mainly).
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Thanks everyone for the ideas. I haven't used the tiki ta ta method before, but I think I'll try it.
IMO students think it is so uncool to count out loud...it's embarrassing for them. Maybe they think it's baby stuff. If only I could make counting seem cool. Surely they can at least count aloud as we tap out the rhythm.
With this child counting is a problem now that 8th notes have been introduced. I may suggest "Coke" (quarters) and "Pepsi" (8ths) and see how she responds to that. And eventually returning to 1 2 3 4.
Candywoman I love your idea of having students sign a piece when it is played well and then having it assigned for one more week.
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Confessions of an incompetent learner here: I am often unable to count aloud while playing. Of course after I learn the rhythm I can do it, but when trying to learn the rhythm and trying to count out loud I get completely stuck, unable to play notes or say numbers. This situation is of course, highly uncool.
What about asking the student to count with you while you play?
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Malkin is not alone. It's not just a matter of being cool. Hang around the ABF for a while and at least once a fortnight you will see a thread along these lines:
My teacher wants me to count out loud while I play. I just can't do it. My brain goes numb, or I count and my fingers seize up. I feel so stupid. It's really embarrassing.
Or:
Is it really necessary to count out loud while playing? I find this so difficult. Everything works fine until I open my mouth.
You won't find it difficult, Ann, because you are a seasoned musician. But most students find this very challenging.
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Today I talked to an 8 year old (not the child who cries) letting him know I would like him to refine a piece. I'll have to work on the speech I gave. Because when I finished explaining, the boy muttered "That's just a fancy way to say fail". I had to laugh. I did my best. I'll still have to work on it.
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Today I talked to an 8 year old (not the child who cries) letting him know I would like him to refine a piece. I'll have to work on the speech I gave. Because when I finished explaining, the boy muttered "That's just a fancy way to say fail". I had to laugh. I did my best. I'll still have to work on it. Absolutely not! I would have been tempted to reply something like: If you think a piece is perfect just because you can play the right notes at the right time, then I've failed as a teacher, because I haven't taught you to listen to your music. Another possible answer (all depends on student's personality, of course) is: Music isn't math. There is no right answer, just better and better answers, and you only get those through continued work and refinement. That's the big difference between art and science. I'll bet some of the other teachers can come up with some other catchy retorts for you.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Yes, after I laughed I continued explaining about art...that I continue to work on pieces even after getting the notes and timing...to get them better and better etc. Can't recall exactly what I said, but it went fairly well.
Later this week when I bring up continued refining, I'll start with the comparison of school work (right/wrong) and art/musicality (continued refinement).
Listening to the music, getting better and better. I'll have to emphasize this.
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Just thought I'd give an update on this situation. This girl still makes a big deal about wanting to be checked off. I have decided that we are not rushing through pieces. So we end up working on just a couple of pieces during lesson. Yesterday lesson time was over and she said "We're not doing the theory book?" (We had no time for theory or performance books.)
I talked to the mother and we've had this talk before...my advising 45 minute lessons instead of 30 minutes. Anyway, this time the parent has decided to switch to 45 minute lessons. We'll make the change next week.
So it feels like progress to me. Next time I'll start with the books we missed this week. I still need to improve with this girl. But at least I am not being pushed into rushing through pieces. If she wants to spend the entire lesson trying to get checked off on one or two pieces (as she did this week) she'll soon understand that there will be no time left for new assignments. But also the longer lesson time will be VERY helpful.
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What about coming up with a check off list of things the student must do with the piece for week. The next week, see if those things can be checked off, then have a new list for week 2, etc. Each week the list is new (with the exception of anything that wasn't accomplished on the previous week's list). This way, the student sees the accomplishment of this week and the refinement for next as separate things.
You could do this with boxes in the assignment book or with post-it notes.
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed. M.M., Piano
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Thanks for the suggestion Minniemay. I'll have to give this some thought. Mainly I think she tends to have some timing problems in a measure or two...and pauses at bar line a measure or two...and needs improvement in dynamics. I could start with "Correct notes" "Steady beat" "Accurate timing" "Attention to Dynamics"...or maybe just put 2 down for the first week.
Knowing this child I feel certain she will just beg to go ahead and try to get the second week's list checked off during the lesson. I'll need to say that I want her to work on it this week so we have enough time in her lesson to cover more things and tell more about the idea of refining pieces... And just endure her strong disappointment(scowl, begging to do it her way, disapproving expression and tears).
I also feel my back up plan is to keep her at the same level when she finishes her books...until playing at this level is easier for her. She may get a "Gold Star" book and won't know it's because she needs more work at the same level. She'll mark it as progress to a new book/s.
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She doesn't need to know there is a week 2 list until week 2!
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OK. I'll do it. It will let her see that she has gotten some things checked off. And will make the 2nd week a new assignment, even though it's the same piece.
Also if she begs to "try again" (and again) to get checked off (with problems that need another week's attention), I think I'll start telling her that if we have time we'll come back to it later in the lesson. In other words we could cover what I intend to cover, and if there is time left over she can focus on a single piece and on measures that need work.
It's been helpful to think aloud and talk this over. Thanks Minniemay.
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I have a little voice recorder - terrible sound quality, but instant to use. Sometimes I record, and then let the student evaluate. I don't give any hints. Sometimes the piece is very good, and sometimes it isn't. But one of my students can now hear her measure breaks as she plays, thanks to being recorded a few times, and will fix them herself. Students with rhythm problems also seem to "get it" when they are counting along to the recording, rather than trying to count and play.
Obviously, I wouldn't accept a curt "fine" as an evaluation. They have to be specific in explaining what they think they are doing well, and what, if anything, needs to be changed.
I wonder if this might work for your student - So that she is the one "finding fault" rather than you. It might also give you a clue as to whether or not she can hear the problems.
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In my opinion, if you reassign a piece, the reasons should be clear -- it is a new assignment. Perhaps she needs a star system where she earns a green star for the first week accomplishments, a read star for the 2nd week, a gold star for a final finished product. You can think of some sort of progressive reward system that might be appealing.
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Thanks for the suggestions Lollipop and Minniemay. I may not get around to recording just yet, but I could ask her what she thought she did well and what could be improved. The idea of having her evaluate herself is helpful.
(I may be getting my digital piano back this year...allowing my sister to trade up...she's interested in my upright piano. The easy recording and playback could come in handy.)
I like your star system idea Minniemay! It could work as an incentive to her...and others. Thanks!!
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Several teachers have used the phrase, "student needs work on rhythm." I'm rather mystified by this word "rhythm," as it can have several very different meanings. But in any case, surely this doesn't have to end up in a tear-filled confrontation, where you're trying to force her into the demeaning exercise of counting out loud like a beginner. If this student is a hard worker, she should be cherished. A much more flexible approach seems to be in order here.
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No, I'm not forcing her to count aloud while playing piano. I now have her count with me as we shake the rhythm using shakers.
Her mother told me she does the same thing at school (crying). BTW she is a beginner who started lessons in August. She is a hard worker, so all I'm going through with her is worth it to me.
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Minniemay, your suggestion about giving a new assignment for a piece was helpful. Today was this child's first 45 minute lesson. I wrote in the word "notes" by last week's date and checked it off. We worked on timing issues today. I wrote "rhythm" by today's date, and told her this is a new assignment. She wasn't thrilled but there was no protest either. I wasn't able to find stars yet, but only looked at Kroger grocery store. So it was a balance of moving on from some pieces, getting a new assignment for some old pieces, and geting new pieces. Without drama.
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Try a teacher's supply store or an office supply store for the stars. You might also use a different color post-it note each week.
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OK. Thanks for the suggestions.
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What I do with my younger students who need another week with a piece is I draw two boxes right at the top of their. I label one box "Notes" and one box "Rhythm". I give them a sticker that week (or a check mark if you will), and tell them to put it in the "notes" box. Then I say that this piece gets TWO stickers because it's tricky, and the next one comes when they actually count it properly (of course I phrase it more like, one you can play it and count with me at the same time, or something nice like that ). However, I do realize that that is not really the "solution" to your problem. More just a by-pass of it. My young ones don't cry, though. I just do this because they are a bit sticker crazy and it gives them a reason they can understand at their age to play it one more week :P Bribery? Maybe, but hey, it's just a sticker and it works!
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Oh, and also, sometimes I will get them to "compose" dynamics for it. Where they want it to sound forte, where they want a decrescendo, etc. Then I tell them I want them I want to hear it next week with all their ideas in it, and oh, p.s. I also want to hear it with correct counting This only works if they have enough of a grasp on it to polish up their counting AND add all the extra dynamics, though. Again, it gives them a "reason" to continue with the piece other than that they haven't quite got it yet.
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Twinklefingers, thanks for your input. Lately this child has not been crying. At worst she gets annoyed. It has helped her a great deal to see that she is getting checked off on some aspect of a piece.
Still, to get her to spend any time working on a crescendo (for example) meets with resistance. She'll say "I got louder"...and I'll do my best to explain the idea of GRADUALLY getting louder.
And the same with composing exercises. She'll do the minimum. For example where she needed to write in quarter notes in each measure, she made sure she drew the same note throughout each measure. So she's still pushing and in a racing mentality. (Still progress since no choking up or crying lately.)
And the switch to 45 minute lessons allows me to let her use a little of her lesson time on skills that I would prefer she do at home. Keeps her happier.
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Glad to hear it's getting a little bit better! When they are a bit defiant, I find it really hard. I'm never sure whether to go the "I'm going to be super happy and make this sound like FUN!" route, or the "Please don't use that tone with me" route :P
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