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#1617541 - 02/11/11 09:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
_riverrun_ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 38
Chris that is brilliant! I wish I could transcribe like that. Without even going to the video it looks spot on. The c(add2) at the end of the chart is part of the next 4 bar phrase, and
it's definitely 5/4. Did you work this out from just listening or playing too?

jazzwee, go with these changes rather than mine and see how it sounds. I will be trying them later today. I 'reverse engineered' guitar tab for mine! lol

[riverrun is the first word in Joyce's masterpiece Finnegans wake, the last word is 'the', the whole book cycles round. smile ]

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#1617651 - 02/11/11 12:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
How did you do that Chris? With so much ease. Bionic Ears? Wow.
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#1617682 - 02/11/11 01:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
How did you do that Chris? With so much ease. Bionic Ears? Wow.

All thanks to my "Dunderöron", only $12.99 at your local IKEA.
smile
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#1617688 - 02/11/11 01:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: _riverrun_]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: _riverrun_
Chris that is brilliant! I wish I could transcribe like that. Without even going to the video it looks spot on. The c(add2) at the end of the chart is part of the next 4 bar phrase, and it's definitely 5/4. Did you work this out from just listening or playing too?]

Both.
I knew what the chords were (their tonal colours) the first time I heard the piece. Majadd2, Minadd2, 7, Maj7, etc
Also, the "trick" to figuring out the chords is to listen to the bass line. Tonic, up a minor third, down a fifth, up a major third. It also helps being British, ND is English, this chordal pattern is "English".
Just kidding, slightly - it's Friday. smile
But to get the actual notes I need to sit at the piano and play what I hear in my head. (it also helps being slightly manic obsessive about music, when I hear something I like I always try and figure it out. Which used to annoy my two older kids whenever we would look at a film, I would rush to the piano, shout: "pause the flix!" and proceed to bang out the chords or voicing I just heard in a specific scene. I don't do that anymore, I just go "m7 riff going up a minor third" in my head instead. Not sure which is the better way though. smile )

At jams, a sure-fire way of annoying other players is picking up their lines and flinging them back at them. But it is good ear practice.
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#1617848 - 02/11/11 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
_riverrun_ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 38
So it's Friday. I was looking over some music I had done in the past and found this. Another Nick Drake composition called Northern Sky. I am uploading this for weekend amusement value only.

I did this way before I had started piano studies and was trialling a beta plug-in VST for saxophone (note to self: never use virtual wind instruments). The piano solos are pretty funny and absurd to me on this now. Seriously OTT. Programmed manually in Cubase. There is some pretty slick drums on it though wink

This is an example of what can happen when you have too many plug-ins and too little knowledge. LMAO

The mix is awful too.

Anyway, enjoy smile

http://www.box.net/shared/n3c0rfqgg1

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#1617850 - 02/11/11 05:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
_riverrun_ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 38
Chris, great advice. I'm a long way off from recognizing intervals when I hear them like that. I can do it whilst singing at the piano, but not so easily when just listening to a piece of music. Something else to work on smile

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#1618062 - 02/12/11 06:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: _riverrun_]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: _riverrun_
Chris, great advice. I'm a long way off from recognizing intervals when I hear them like that. I can do it whilst singing at the piano, but not so easily when just listening to a piece of music. Something else to work on smile

Here's a great exercise:

Sing the notes as One Three Five Three, etc The idea is to be able to switch tone placement in your head (root becomes Third becomes Fifth, etc). This is major triads, next is minor triads, then Major 7's, dominant 7's, minor 7's and so on. Not easy, but fun, once one starts to get the switch.

Another exercise is to write down any melody you can think of. Three blind mice, write it down on paper, no piano, choose whatever key you like. Then take another melody, Twinkle twinkle little star and so on.

Play along to a Beatles song (or any pop tune), get the bass notes (roots) first, then get the chords, skip the melody for now. Move on to the next song. Do this in real time, no slowing down the song.
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#1619449 - 02/14/11 12:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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_riverrun - nice production BTW. thumb

Now back to the rhythm discussion. After careful thought, it is clear that to do this properly, the entire triplet subdivision must be mastered exactly.

I was listening once again to Mehldau for the last couple of days and really deeply paying attention to this. And on his standards, he's just taking advantage of single notes landing exactly on that offbeat. Instead of playing a line, maybe the key is just hitting just one note and ignoring the downbeat. He'll do several of this in a row. Certainly on "I Don't Know What Time It Was" (Art of the Trio Vol 1).

BUT - he does more. It is obvious he's got some other subdivision going here since he's also landing notes at intermediate spots that I cannot grasp. I think it is a subdivision of 5 as riverrun alluded to earlier. Maybe we'll have to parse that recording to get to it. These are clearly not random key strikes. Even the length of each note seems perfectly timed.

In the meantime, clearly mastery of the single note offbeat position is essential it seems. I already know my teacher lands EXACTLY on the 'Luh' of 'Duh-Duh-Luh'. In my head I start think of it as Luh-Duh-Duh (in reverse) so I can start the key press at right moment.

This is really difficult and it has to be mastered at all tempos. So I'm just going to go with straight metronome on the beat and see how well I subdivide.
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#1619753 - 02/14/11 12:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Got an interesting reminder today, Chuck Israels on-line arranging course
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/57277-Lesson-1-Intro-amp-Rhythm

Check out and listen to the last example on this page, (check them all out - its a great lesson on Jazz - all the lessons).
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#1619786 - 02/14/11 01:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Chris,
interesting lesson. Could you tell me if I understand well. When he says:
----
In jazz and most popular music, harmonic changes take place on the first and third beats of common time music. The accents on the second and fourth beats in jazz function to balance the emphasis that accrues to the down beats as a result of the changes of harmony, and should be played as strongly as they need to be to fulfill that function and no stronger. Accenting the second and fourth beats heavily, as so many school musicians are taught to do, only serves to unbalance the music in the other direction and is as destructive to the swing as overemphasizing one and three. The only time heavy accents are needed on the off beats is when there is an equally strong emphasis on the down beats in a passage that needs a powerful “two beat” feel. In that case, the heavier off beats restore the balance.
----
Is he calling beat 1 and 3 downbeats, and beat 2 and 4, offbeats?

Also, on example 1-3, beats 1 and 3 are often accentuated. How does that link to the paragraph above, where one should only slightly accent beat 2 & 4.

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#1619835 - 02/14/11 02:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
1) I believe so.
2) Not sure, I "get it" from listening to the examples, but I'm not really able to describe it in writing.
Maybe ask him? I know he answers his mail. http://www.chuckisraels.com/
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#1619839 - 02/14/11 02:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
If he's talking about a TWO BEAT FEEL (2/4), then 1 and 3 are DOWNBEATS and 2 and 4 are OFFBEATS.

If standard 4/4 feel, then of course we start talking eighths as we usually do. Quarter notes are BEATS.

Sometimes talk of accents are confusing and that's because it depends on whose role we're talking about. The rhythm section vs. the soloist.

The soloist plays AGAINST the rhythm section.
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#1619840 - 02/14/11 02:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
He's talking about 4/4

............

Basic jazz drumming


Edited by chrisbell (02/14/11 02:57 PM)
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#1619849 - 02/14/11 03:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
I'm just reading the quote and he's talking about implying TWO BEAT FEEL.
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#1619911 - 02/14/11 04:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1308
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Maybe we are interpreting his text differently.
Chuck writes: " . . . first and third beats of common time music"
Common time is 4/4
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#1622621 - 02/18/11 02:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
Remember I got Herbie/Wayne Shorter tickets? WTF...Chick is playing the SAME NIGHT. Talk about competition...Well to late now since I already have the Herbie tickets so the choice is made.

Some good choices here lately...
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#1622654 - 02/18/11 04:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2260
Loc: Sydney
Hey, that Chick dude sure gets around. West Coast - Australia - West Coast.

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#1623440 - 02/19/11 05:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Hi all

I was just writing some stuff on upper structure voicings and thought someone here may find it interesting. Here it is ...

[img:left]http://img12.imageshack.us/i/creatingharmonyandlines.jpg/
[/img]
[img:left]http://img337.imageshack.us/i/creatingharmonyandlines.jpg/
[/img]
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#1623447 - 02/19/11 06:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2260
Loc: Sydney
Hey Dave B
Welcome back ! So you survived Everest/ Himalayas/ Nepal. Did you bang your head to Bird tunes against the cold precipices ?
I look forward to trying out your stuff which looks great. Right now it's too late for the neighbours.
Thanks.
cus

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#1623530 - 02/19/11 09:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Thanks Custard, its good to be back.
I certainly did bang my head to Bird tunes against the cold precipices, that is closer to the truth than you could know!
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#1623638 - 02/19/11 12:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, I did imagine various mountain climbing movies like K2, etc. You were gone for a heck of long time ... Either that or you gave up on the internet.

Welcome back.

Nice upper structure study. Will have to translate to roman numerals to remember.
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#1623723 - 02/19/11 03:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Thanks JW.
Yeah 3 months holidays is good going!
My fingers feel like rubber now though!!
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#1623777 - 02/19/11 05:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Hello Beeboss... good to "meet" you. I joined in on the thread about a month ago. Here's my youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/scolettajazz

I've been checking out some of the stuff on your channel...very nice! cool

I tried to open your stuff on open structure voicings but I seem to have some kind of problem with image shack. When it opens I get one of those fake browser windows and messages about malware... must be a virus on my computer. crazy Maybe you could put it on box.net if it's not too much trouble?

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#1623826 - 02/19/11 06:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Hi Scott, good to meet you too. You have nice tunes up on youtube yourself.

I uploaded it to box.net ....

http://www.box.net/shared/g3ztcitbi0

http://www.box.net/shared/y18gs79kkp


If this doesn't work send me a pm with your email and i'll post 'em to you.

cheers, David


Edited by beeboss (02/19/11 06:44 PM)
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#1624641 - 02/20/11 06:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Scott Coletta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Chicago
Beeboss, I was just checking out your upper extension ideas. Good stuff. smile Thanks for reposting on box.net. I wonder if it might be helpful for someone who is learning to also have an analysis of how the upper structure functions against the basic chord. For example on the first D7 chord w/ Dmin you could show that the F is a sharp 9. Just thought this might help for clarifying when a particular upper structure might be called for since alot of them are enharmonic equivalents and may be confusing. Of course, alot of times its up to the improviser to add these things but I guess that's another topic...knowing when to add alterations. Are you writing this for teaching?

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#1624647 - 02/20/11 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
BTW - Scott and riverrun, I'm just extra busy right now, but I'd like to still take apart what Mehldau is doing rhythmically. So stay tuned.
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#1624710 - 02/20/11 08:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
I wonder if it might be helpful for someone who is learning to also have an analysis of how the upper structure functions against the basic chord


Yes you are right that would be a good idea.

Originally Posted By: Scott Coletta
Are you writing this for teaching?


I am writing a book, but very slowly. Every now and again I just add a bit more. I have already written a lot of stuff about scale theory and how to generate chords and voicings from scales, and the chapter on upper extensions is slowly getting bigger. That particular example was just as a demonstration of how upper structures can actually be used in generating lines and some interesting voicings over a standard sequence.
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#1625690 - 02/22/11 01:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
Jam Session report
I had a great jam session today Just good people and good fun and some interesting comments from people.

As you all know, I don't think particularly well of myself at these jam sessions (that I've been doing since November). And I don't really know what the other musicians think of me and how I play.

But today, several actually spoke to me and both praised and critiqued me. One said that my solos were melodic and that I was one of the better ones to listen to. Several said I had a nice touch on the piano. I think this resulted from a change in mindset. I played less. I played with more space. I played with less eighth notes. I varied my comping more but played less really. Yet, it's amazing how people perceive it differently.

The critique itself wasn't about my playing. It was about how serious I look, like I'm not enjoying the music. And yes, the tunes required that I look at the leadsheet, but in general, they said I need to show in my face that I was enjoying the music.

LOL. Each one of us expresses music a different way. In all these years of playing jazz, I've been doing it on the internet. So no one sees what my face. Now there's another aspect I can attack. My stage presence. I thought it was very special when one musician actually came to me and said that both of our problems are just in learning the tunes but my piano sound was great and he'd rather play with me than anyone else. He said he liked my touch.

Wow.

I wasn't expecting any of this today, particularly since I've been playing classical for a few weeks so I'm a little rusty.

Even my teacher said I was on the verge of getting "there". Whatever "there" is. I think he meant playing like a pro. And I think he's right. It isn't about trying to play fast (which I've abandoned on several jams because I can't), but about being musical and it seems like I'm making progress.

Anyway, I just wanted to share that since this thread is part of what helps me develop and you guys are providing the support, help, and critique.

BTW - someone shouted as we finished "Stella" that I "nailed it". I can't remember what I did so we'll have to listen to the recording.
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#1625693 - 02/22/11 02:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2260
Loc: Sydney
Congrats JW. To achieve this after 6 years is great.
What about when you don't look at the sheet ? - do they think you look less stressed ?

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#1625696 - 02/22/11 02:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6989
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Congrats JW. To achieve this after 6 years is great.
What about when you don't look at the sheet ? - do they think you look less stressed ?


I think that I just look serious. But there's so much going in my head at the time I'm really so into the music that I'm not externally expressing myself. Maybe as I get more relaxed, I can set aside brain power to be more aware of my environment.

I have to careful too because my wide says my mouth assumes an expression when I'm playing. I think it was Hal Galper who said that my body should be quiet.
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