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#1616508 - 02/09/11 09:43 PM Papps wedges - who uses them?
Chris Leslie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 532
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
My preferred method of muting uprights is to use papps wedges, apart from strip muting the temperament section. It appears that rubber wedges are the norm from my reading on this forum. My first teacher showed me how to insert papps wedges between hammer shanks and that is how I am still most comfortable. After setting the temperament, the rest of the piano can be rapidly tuned with a single wedge, although I usually use two when working up through the upper octaves.

Do other forum members use this method, or have criticisms?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1616525 - 02/09/11 10:02 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Steven Bolstridge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Fitzgerald ,GA
I've used the Papps treble mute for years. Speedy. Great for pitch raises.
_________________________
piano tuner/technician

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#1616528 - 02/09/11 10:07 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I use one Papps mute, but only in the treble, in combination with a narrow rubber mute or a wooden stick mute (leather covered). The Papps make a bit of a click but you get used to it. This is also my weapon of choice for overdamper pianos.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1616536 - 02/09/11 10:14 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2399
Loc: Olympia, WA
I use them sometimes. I found that it helped to roughen up the surface where they touch the strings so they don't slip out as easy.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1616596 - 02/10/11 12:15 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
I carry a couple of them. Just the thing for some hard to reach situations. I strip and rubber mute and Papps, depending on what I feel like, and the situation at hand. Ryan, thanks for the roughening-up tip, I think I'll do that to mine.
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

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#1616612 - 02/10/11 12:53 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1562
Loc: Mexico City
In tuning verticals I always use one Papps mute in the treble, where there is no place for a wedge mute between the dampers and the hammers. Where there are no more dampers I usually get back to the two wedge mutes I use for the tenor notes.

For birdcage pianos a Papps mute is imperative!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1616663 - 02/10/11 04:23 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
pianocat88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 99
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Typically I use the white rubber wedges on the treble in uprights but there are situations where no other mutes will work. Good to have as many choices of tools with you as possible. Also, the box the mute comes in makes a handy straight edge.
_________________________
Lisa Weller, RPT
Huntington Beach, CA
www.wellerpianoservice.com

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#1616673 - 02/10/11 05:56 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: pianocat88]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
I've been using Papps mute since I started tuning almost 30 years ago. I use it after the treble break. They also come in handy for retrieving rubber mute that fall down into the action between the hammers and dampers. I keep a spare in my case because at some point they will break.
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

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#1616713 - 02/10/11 08:00 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Typically I use rubber and felt mutes. I cut the vertical mutes on angles clipping off the very edges of them making both sides into a V but the middle of the felt is still flat for about 1/8" or so. Easily fits between the strings and dampers better. If I can remember, always a problem for me, I'll take a picture and post it sometime... I do likewise with my bass rubber mutes. It takes away that little useless flap that gets in the way that is left over on brand new mutes if you know what I mean. Makes the mutes mushy.

For some reason, Papps and me never seem to get along. And yes, I was a good boy, papps spanked me a lot of times though! OHHH! You're talking mutes! smile Papps seems like more of a waste of time than a time saver. Unless I'm picture something different? But, then again, I'm probably using them wrong. So what else is new huh?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1616732 - 02/10/11 08:44 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1925
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jerry,

Please do take pictures and post them here. I'm trying to understand what you wrote (both sides a V), but for the life of me... wink
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1616733 - 02/10/11 08:46 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I just usually run through with a single rubber mute.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1617135 - 02/10/11 06:34 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1562
Loc: Mexico City

For those of you who don't use a papps mute then how do you deal with the high treble damped section in uprights, where there is not enough place between the dampers and hammer's heads to insert the wedge mutes?

Sometimes I find my self losing alot of time trying to make the rubber mutes fit in there and still allow the hammer's head to strike the strings.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1617171 - 02/10/11 07:30 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Gadzar]
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 292
Loc: Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
...how do you deal with the high treble damped section in uprights, where there is not enough place between the dampers and hammer's heads to insert the wedge mutes?

I strip-mute it the way I think Bill Bremmer has described here before:

Cut a strip in half lengthwise so it's relatively narrow. Insert as usual, taking a bit of care in making the loops not too big, then slide them down carefully so they tuck in under the dampers. Usually I have to lift the dampers carefully with my fingers if the pedal doesn't bring them up high enough for the loops to fit. On the way back down while tuning unisons, you get good at doing it carefully so it doesn't mess up the damper felts.

Since I'm already on a roll by the time I get to the top of the damped section, I keep going above the damper section doing the same thing until I run out of strip length. It usually requires two sections of the narrower strip mute.

If it doesn't work for whatever reason, I pull out the Papps mute smile




Edited by Jim Moy (02/10/11 07:31 PM)
_________________________
Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com

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#1617178 - 02/10/11 07:37 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21196
Loc: Oakland
I use narrow rubber mutes. The smallest from Schaff are 1/4" wide.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1617199 - 02/10/11 08:33 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Papps seems like more of a waste of time than a time saver. Unless I'm picture something different? But, then again, I'm probably using them wrong. So what else is new huh?


smile One can get very fast with papps mutes, though, Jerry. It's a little bit like eating with chop sticks! :-D

I use papps mutes in uprights a lot, and I especially like the fact that I can single out any string of the unison easily, if needed.


Edited by pppat (02/11/11 12:38 AM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1617302 - 02/10/11 11:30 PM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi Gang,

This first picture is what I do to most of my mutes. First, they are way to thin at the very TIP. So, first, I make a formation kind of like the V but no so drastic I guess, as I did here with a scissors on both edges coming down on an angle. It makes it easier to get in by the treble dampers which by the way, I always push down on the sustaining pedal before I insert the mutes otherwise you can very easily push the felt off from the dampers.

Secondly, after I have it "formed" if you will, I trim maybe 1/16" off of the from lip-edge of the mute to make it a bit stiffer, not so flippy, or floppy.



The 2nd picture is the entire length of both mutes laid on a typical sized paper toweling. I love the longer mutes. They are easier to get into things. It gives me more working room. And, if they start to fall (BDB) no strings attached, hehe, I can catch them quicker! smile

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1617327 - 02/11/11 12:36 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Nice pics, Jer!

Without exception, I find the last couple of dampers in the treble to be severely assaulted on their right side by earlier tuners. Are you people guilty of this annoyance too, or is it a local thing? smile

With papps mutes, that simply doesn't happen.

Pat


Edited by pppat (02/11/11 12:37 AM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1617332 - 02/11/11 12:43 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
PS --- I had to make my own mutes out of school rubber (? is there a better word for this? - sounds ambiguous smile ) because the rubber mutes I ordered as a novice from international piano supply where heavily latex-based, and I developed severe allergic reactions to them. --- DS
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1617558 - 02/11/11 09:56 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
I find the last couple of dampers in the treble to be severely assaulted on their right side by earlier tuners.


Thanks Patrick. Yes, I find far to many dampers that have just been SHOVED with the mutes and then when the notes are played, the felt tears apart from the damper head. Maddening to run into that when it is easily avoidable.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1617594 - 02/11/11 10:58 AM Re: Papps wedges - who uses them? [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4893
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: BDB
I use narrow rubber mutes. The smallest from Schaff are 1/4" wide.


Same here. In the upper treble I may have to lift the damper a bit to get it low enough.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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