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#1622499 - 02/17/11 10:20 PM Horowitz's Octaves
Bech Offline
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Registered: 03/24/10
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Loc: Indiana
Been reading about Horowitz and find that one of his big feats was playing octaves--like few can do.

Can anyone direct me to one or more performance of his on YouTube where he's displaying this ability?

Bech
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Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.

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#1622521 - 02/17/11 10:49 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
mr_roberts_z Offline
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#1622522 - 02/17/11 10:51 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
argerichfan Online   sick
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Registered: 11/15/06
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Listen to Horowitz with 15 other pianists in the famous Tchaikovsky salvo. He wasn't the only one with legendary octaves.



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#1622524 - 02/17/11 10:51 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Mark_C Offline
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We could give you Chopin's octave etude ha but how about this octave part of Liszt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody.....this video also has the same thing by a couple of other pretty good players. smile

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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1622526 - 02/17/11 10:52 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: mr_roberts_z]
Mark_C Offline
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(It didn't take us long, did it.....) smile
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#1622528 - 02/17/11 10:56 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
.....He wasn't the only one with legendary octaves....

Someone was once talking about some female pianist who had "the best octaves in France," and for some reason everybody giggled. smile
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1622536 - 02/17/11 11:12 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Online   sick
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(It didn't take us long, did it.....) smile

No it didn't! I had seen the video you posted, and I knew those recordings from CD. (Unlike the Tchaikovsky where I had not heard many of those recordings in their entirety, not to mention in better sound than on YT.)

All three pianists in the Liszt were superb and super-human. Horowitz is certainly a hard act to beat (and I like his slight rewrite), though Argerich gives him a good run for the money. (Her octaves are astoundingly clean and well voiced.) Cziffra seems a tad less convincing, though some may not agree.
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#1622539 - 02/17/11 11:27 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
vers la flan Offline
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Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 155
Hi guys,

It's interesting that this topic has come up because just last night I was reading the liner notes from one of my Glenn Gould cds where he asserts that Horowitz didn't have good octaves but that he faked them somehow. Since I'm not quite at Gould's level I can't vouch either way for that statement with the same authority, though I will say that while I think Horowitz's octaves are generally pretty convincing to me, he does seem to make a point of them when he is performing them. (I suppose that's why Rubinstein once quipped to him, "Congratulations, you win the octave olympics," or some such thing).

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#1622546 - 02/17/11 11:51 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: vers la flan]
beet31425 Offline
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Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3832
Loc: Bay Area, CA
vers,

I still laugh every time I see your username, even though it's been several times now. According to wikipedia, "The piece's title reflects the Earth's fiery destruction, as well as the constant emotional buildup and crescendo throughout the piece leading, ultimately, 'toward the flame.'" I wonder if Scriabin ever thought about apocalypse by custard...

I also wonder when I'll stop laughing at your name. God, what if I never stop?....

-Jason
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

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#1622551 - 02/17/11 11:57 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: vers la flan]
argerichfan Online   sick
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Originally Posted By: vers la flan

It's interesting that this topic has come up because just last night I was reading the liner notes from one of my Glenn Gould cds where he asserts that Horowitz didn't have good octaves but that he faked them somehow.

Hmmm. Interesting. How would Horowitz have faked them? Certainly his early EMI recording of the Liszt sonata makes one wonder. My teacher heard him live several times in the '70's (admittedly when Horowitz may not have been at his best), but he never indicated anything suspicious about Horowitz's technique. My piano teacher was quite blown away, though not always convinced with Horowitz's tampering... which was less in evidence (or more convincing?) than in his '60's performances.

Personally I don't care at all for Horowitz's 1978 (?) Rachmaninov 3 with Ormandy, but we do have the '50's with Reiner (cuts and all) to fall back on. That is truly an amazing recording, elephants definitely on the menu and certainly swallowed in their entirety.
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#1622563 - 02/18/11 12:13 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Hmmm. Interesting. How would Horowitz have faked them?.....

....and besides, IMO this is nothing more than a shrug anyway.

If someone "fakes" octaves in a way that is imperceptible, what difference does it make? In fact, I wouldn't call that faking; I'd call it an intelligent and skillful solution.

I've heard it said that Horowitz sometimes "faked" RUNS -- like, leaving out a note here-and-there in scale-like passages, if he felt it would be imperceptible and the extra little quickness would be effective. If he ever "faked" his octaves, I'd bet it wasn't because he couldn't play them as written, but that it was this same kind of choice. If anything, I would consider it genius-ly brilliant, rather than something bad.

IMO the only negative comment in Gould's comment (if he really said that) is upon himself.

P.S. For what it's worth I occasionally make a similar choice to omit notes. One example is a left hand note in the fluttering E major passage in the middle section of Chopin's 2nd Scherzo. It's a note that I thought just got in the way of the R.H. and added little if anything when played. Before I ever performed it that way, I told my teacher about it, and to my surprise and delight, he said, "Oh, I never played that note." ha
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#1622569 - 02/18/11 12:26 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
P.S. For what it's worth I occasionally make a similar choice to omit notes. One example is a left hand note in the fluttering E major passage in the middle section of Chopin's 2nd Scherzo. It's a note that I thought just got in the way of the R.H. and added little if anything when played. Before I ever performed it that way, I told my teacher about it, and to my surprise and delight, he said, "Oh, I never played that note." ha

Which note, Mark?

I'm guessing one of the notes in the 5th measure of the passage? Where the C#-E in the LH comes right after those two notes were played in the RH?

-J
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#1622571 - 02/18/11 12:29 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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.....and another thing is, what did Gould mean anyway about "faking" octaves? Maybe did he just mean that Horowitz didn't really dig into the notes but just sort of "skimmed" them? I can well imagine that, from knowing how they both played.

There's a recurrent passage in the 1st mvt of Beethoven's Sonata in B-flat, Op. 22, where I would just sort of 'skim' some of the octaves. It appears first at 1:44-1:45 on here (the five 8th notes in a row):



Someone who once heard me play it said I was "faking" those notes, that I was "missing" them. It wasn't faking; it was a musical choice. In this video, Barenboim really digs into them, and most people do. But that doesn't mean it's "faking" if you choose to just skim across them and make them just "sputter."

A famous example of another Beethoven passage where we might do this is the octave glissandi near the end of the last mvt of the Waldstein. Let's see what Horowitz does there......in fact maybe this is exactly what Gould was referring to?

No, it's not; he digs into those notes pretty good (at 8:43) -- actually sort of midway between digging-in and skimming -- but he doesn't play it that fast either. I would most definitely 'skim.'

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#1622573 - 02/18/11 12:32 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
.....I occasionally make a similar choice to omit notes. One example is a left hand note in the fluttering E major passage in the middle section of Chopin's 2nd Scherzo. It's a note that I thought just got in the way of the R.H. and added little if anything when played. ....I told my teacher about it, and to my surprise and delight, he said, "Oh, I never played that note." ha

Which note, Mark?

I'm guessing one of the notes in the 5th measure of the passage? Where the C#-E in the LH comes right after those two notes were played in the RH.

BINGO!!!!
(Beautiful job!) ha

Yes -- the E in the left hand is exactly the note that I omit. I play just the C# with the L.H.

So.....did Chopin himself play that note? Dunno, but I can imagine that he didn't -- or that sometimes he did and sometimes he didn't, depending on the piano's action.
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#1622575 - 02/18/11 12:34 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Hehe, I attempt to be Horowitz for a couple seconds:


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#1622598 - 02/18/11 01:27 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Bech Offline
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Registered: 03/24/10
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Loc: Indiana
Super responses! Thank you all.

I pick Argerich. I know it's a lot about quality sound--but I can't help it!

I can just about see her smile at the end.

Edit: Hey, I can do octaves too but mine are a little bit different. grin

Bech


Edited by Bech (02/18/11 01:34 AM)
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#1622625 - 02/18/11 02:26 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
vers la flan Offline
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RE: Gould vs. Horowitz--

Apparently, the comment was made during an interview around 1960, so it was a long time before Horowitz's messier 80's where he would often pedal things into mush.

I've read a little on Gould and it seems he really had an antipathy towards Horowitz, and I think H's popularity affected Gould's opinion of the listening public as well. It seems the two were polar opposites when it came to their approach to the piano so I guess it's understandable that H would offend G's sensibilities. (I've also wondered, when H made the comment that "A piano is not a typewriter," if that was a swipe at Gould).

I once had a tuner who had seen Horowitz play and remarked, "He could mess up in a way that sounded very exciting."

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#1622748 - 02/18/11 08:44 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: mr_roberts_z]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: mr_roberts_z
Sure.
That performance of Chopin's Octave Etude has a huge number of "false" notes, right?


Edited by pianoloverus (02/18/11 08:44 AM)

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#1622780 - 02/18/11 09:38 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: pianoloverus]
mr_roberts_z Offline
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Registered: 10/09/07
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: mr_roberts_z
Sure.
That performance of Chopin's Octave Etude has a huge number of "false" notes, right?


One or two.

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#1622802 - 02/18/11 10:08 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: mr_roberts_z]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: mr_roberts_z
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: mr_roberts_z
Sure.
That performance of Chopin's Octave Etude has a huge number of "false" notes, right?


One or two.
I heard around ten obvious ones before he got to the middle section.


Edited by pianoloverus (02/18/11 10:09 AM)

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#1622810 - 02/18/11 10:13 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
jeffreyjones Offline
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Registered: 01/31/10
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Loc: San Jose, CA
Horowitz was not at his best in 1983. In fact, I think that was probably the rock bottom for him. He was heavily medicated and was prone to memory lapses. He recovered by about 1986 and his last recitals are marvelous.

I have to nominate this jaw-dropping recording of Funerailles.

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#1623779 - 02/19/11 05:18 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
vers la flan Offline
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Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 155
Hi guys,

Here's a link to the Heroic Polonaise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lmJuAM_GvU

Starting around 4:00 there's a good top-down view of his hands. It seems he had a pretty wide palm, spanning a fifth or six on its own so octaves look like they fit really comfortably. It's surprising then that, according to David Dubal, Horowitz claimed he was unable to play Scriabin's etude in ninths because it would "break his hand." It looks to me that he shouldn't have problems with it physically.

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#1623812 - 02/19/11 06:14 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
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Loc: Manchester, UK
I have to say I find Argerich's octaves more impressive than Horowitz's.

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#1623867 - 02/19/11 07:27 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: debrucey]
argerichfan Online   sick
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Registered: 11/15/06
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Originally Posted By: debrucey
I have to say I find Argerich's octaves more impressive than Horowitz's.

They actually are, and in some respects she is a lot more sophisticated and intelligent musician than Horowitz. She certainly has more respect for the printed note, and has shown us that it always works as advertised.

Nevermind that Liszt always played free, that was back then. Like Liszt, Horowitz was just too technically rich to behave himself. But Argerich simply does not see it this way.
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#1623875 - 02/19/11 07:38 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Andromaque Offline
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Loc: New York
Rumor has it that Horowitz acknowledged la Martha's virtuosic skills, knowing that he was not particularly generous about other performers'achievements, right??

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#1623924 - 02/19/11 09:14 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
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I've heard Horowitz drop a thumb or a pinky here and there in octaves (not that it really matters, but I'm just saying).

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#1623955 - 02/19/11 10:13 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: vers la flan]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: vers la flan
.....Here's a link to the Heroic Polonaise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lmJuAM_GvU
Starting around 4:00 there's a good top-down view of his hands. It seems he had a pretty wide palm, spanning a fifth or six on its own so octaves look like they fit really comfortably. It's surprising then that, according to David Dubal, Horowitz claimed he was unable to play Scriabin's etude in ninths because it would "break his hand." It looks to me that he shouldn't have problems with it physically.

Thanks! I have a recording of him playing that (different performance) but I've never "seen" him play it.

I wondered a couple of things:

Did he finger those bottom notes of the L.H. octaves "2-3-4-5"? (Which I think I heard somewhere that he did.)
He didn't.

Did he "help out" with the R.H. (as written) in the 'intro' to the section and the little interlude before the repetition, or whether he takes it all with the L.H.
He helped out.
It's all fine, of course (and NORMAL)......just wondered. smile
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#1623968 - 02/19/11 10:42 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Andromaque]
argerichfan Online   sick
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Registered: 11/15/06
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Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Rumor has it that Horowitz acknowledged la Martha's virtuosic skills, knowing that he was not particularly generous about other performers'achievements, right??

I do not know if Horowitz ever heard Argerich -there is a lot of conflicting info here- but IMO there is no possible case for him being a greater musician than Argerich.

Horowitz was a showman with AWESOME technical address, but it was all self-absorbed. Argerich has proven to be a fantastic collaborator in chamber music, just listen to her Schumann Piano Quintet- then compare with pedestrian pianists such as Pressler. It is so obvious as to be a bit of a joke.
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#1623989 - 02/19/11 11:37 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
.....IMO there is no possible case for him being a greater musician than Argerich.....

Good that you said IMO. ha

Look....."greater musician" is a very subjective thing. I doubt it's possible for anyone to ever legitimately say there's "no possible case" for something like this -- and I don't mean only about Horowitz and Argerich.

Do I think Horowitz was a "greater musician" than Argerich? Well, I would never think of thinking in such terms, but if I had to pick an answer, I'd say yes, he was a 'greater musician.' But IMO to think in such terms at all -- it sort of insults both of them.
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#1624029 - 02/20/11 02:21 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
sophial Offline
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Jason, I gotta call you out on this one. You know how much I think of Argerich-- I adore her playing but there is no way that I would place her musicianship above Horowitz'. Horowitz went deeply into the music he played and studied it very carefully. His interpretations were not simply technical showcases or fits of capriciousness but based on a deep understanding of the music he was playing. Plus I agree with Mark about the problems inherent in this type of comparison but if it's about going there, I give the nod to H.

Sophia

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#1624040 - 02/20/11 03:01 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: sophial]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: sophial
Jason, I gotta call you out on this one. You know how much I think of Argerich-- I adore her playing but there is no way that I would place her musicianship above Horowitz'. Horowitz went deeply into the music he played and studied it very carefully. His interpretations were not simply technical showcases or fits of capriciousness but based on a deep understanding of the music he was playing. Plus I agree with Mark about the problems inherent in this type of comparison but if it's about going there, I give the nod to H.

Actually I can see (I think) where Jason was coming from. For example, I think most non-pianist musicians would say that Argerich was a "greater musician" than Horowitz, if they had to give an answer, although frankly I think most of them would feel neither one was a particularly great musician. ha

"Musicianship" is a funny thing. On one hand, there are objective aspects to it, but on the other, it's very subjective. What is it? Which aspects are more important than others? How much leeway is there for different kinds of approaches? How much do we count "originality" and "uniqueness"? Or maybe, are those things negatives rather than positives, because of how they may violate usual musical expectations and even usual musical principles? How much does it count against "musicianship" if the person sometimes gets carried away with his/her impulsiveness and 'personality' into (arguably) messy ugliness? When it comes to people like Horowitz and Argerich I think they create their own thing to an extent that talking about degrees of "musicianship" sort of misses the point, and, as I said before, sort of insults both of them.
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#1624048 - 02/20/11 03:35 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
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Registered: 06/12/09
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I'm finding myself surprised at a number of statements here from valued forum members.

Originally Posted By: argerichfan
IMO there is no possible case for [Horowitz] being a greater musician than Argerich.
It's totally reasonable to think Argerich the greater musician, but I think it's totally unreasonable to think there's no "possible case" for the reverse. I happen to think Bach is greater than Mozart, but I'd never say there's just no possible argument for Mozart's superiority. We're talking about taste and opinion among the giants.


And:
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
For example, I think most non-pianist musicians would say that Argerich was a "greater musician" than Horowitz, if they had to give an answer, although frankly I think most of them would feel neither one was a particularly great musician. ha
I think you're being unfair to our non-pianist friends-- surely they would understand the artistry and musicianship of the great pianists even if they don't themselves play. At the same time, you're being far too indulgent towards our non-pianist friends-- if they don't appreciate the musicianship of the great pianists just because they don't play, this should count significantly against them. It shouldn't be "OK"; it should call their own musical judgment severely into question-- no?

I've been as universal as I know how-- I love Mahler and Wagner and plenty of non-piano music. And I expect the same courtesy from our non-piano musicians. I expect them to love Beethoven sonatas, and I even expect the violinists to understand that Paganini was no Chopin.

-Jason
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Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

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#1624049 - 02/20/11 03:38 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
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It's not "discourtesy" on their part; it's different ideas of "musicianship."

I think a lot of what both Horowitz and Argerich do, musically, is stuff that is idiosyncratic to the piano and which arises from the piano -- and those kinds of things often are just not included in non-pianists' ideas of musicianship.

And.....a little off the subject, but.....I think it's also why many of them don't rank Chopin very high as a composer. It is often put in terms of his having composed little music other than for piano, and therefore lacking breadth -- but I think it's also this other thing: not appreciating those aspects of musicianship that arise from and are idiosyncratic to the piano.
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#1624070 - 02/20/11 05:03 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I have to say I find Argerich's octaves more impressive than Horowitz's.

They actually are, and in some respects she is a lot more sophisticated and intelligent musician than Horowitz. She certainly has more respect for the printed note, and has shown us that it always works as advertised.

Nevermind that Liszt always played free, that was back then. Like Liszt, Horowitz was just too technically rich to behave himself. But Argerich simply does not see it this way.



Lol, you know you wern't gonna get me on board with the rest of that message ;-). One of the things I love about Horowitz was his willingness to play with things.

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#1624086 - 02/20/11 06:17 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: PaulaPiano34]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
I've heard Horowitz drop a thumb or a pinky here and there in octaves (not that it really matters, but I'm just saying).


Really? You've got damned good ears then.
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"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1624088 - 02/20/11 06:29 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
there is no possible case for him being a greater musician than Argerich.



I've gotta tell ya...I've seen some homers in my life, but you, my friend, are pretty darned close to the top of the slappy pile. This is really one of the more thoughtless comments I've seen around here and I say so because you're a smart guy who knows better than to say something so inane. I don't care if you think she's the greater musician, but to say "there is no possible case for..." any other possibility is simply ridiculous and you know it.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1624089 - 02/20/11 06:35 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
stores Offline
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Posts: 6648
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I have to say I find Argerich's octaves more impressive than Horowitz's.

They actually are



Here's another...to say "they actually are", implies that it's some sort of fact. Well, in your mind I'm sure that's the case, but then I'm sure in your mind she can do no wrong and does it (whatever it may be) better than anyone past, present, or future.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1624103 - 02/20/11 07:37 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: stores]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I have to say I find Argerich's octaves more impressive than Horowitz's.

They actually are



Here's another...to say "they actually are", implies that it's some sort of fact. Well, in your mind I'm sure that's the case, but then I'm sure in your mind she can do no wrong and does it (whatever it may be) better than anyone past, present, or future.



I have to agree with Stores here.

To me, the octaves of Horowitz in the Tchaik clip sound infinitely more electric and powerful than those of the other 15 pianists.

As for musicianship, I don't think anyone could make a serious case for Argerich being a 'superior' musician (whatever that means anyway).

IMO, no pianist has had a bigger impact on piano playing, audiences, and musical culture in general than Horowitz.

While he doesn't get everything 100% right for 100% of the people 100% of the time (who the heck does anyway?), I find his playing in many instances unrivaled and unsurpassed.

I think you folks who think Argerich's octaves in the Tchaik are better than da HO's just like hers because she plonks the pedal down.... so you all think they sound more 'impressive'.

Well in that case, Lang Lang can be more 'technically impressive' than Josef Lhevinne....

yeah right.

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#1624105 - 02/20/11 07:46 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: JustAnotherPianist]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
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I think you're slightly guilty of the attitude you're criticising there.

I personally prefer Horowitz's octaves in the Hungarian Rhapsody, Argerich's in Funerailles, and funnily enough my favourite for the Tchaikovsky is Sergio Tiempo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2svEIKd5x8

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#1624114 - 02/20/11 08:04 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Andromaque Offline
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Registered: 08/29/08
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I think they are both brilliant pianists with many idiosyncrasies. It would not be surprising at all that audience, and particularly pianists, would favor one or the other. It does not diminish either. As for musicianship, a word whose definition varies widely (see JAP above, identifying it with "influence"), a case can easily be made for both artists. In my opinion however, Argerich's breadth of repertoire, particularly in chamber music, offers substantial support for superlative musicianship.. In my opinion and experience, many pianists are barely aware of the treasures of chamber music she has played and/ or recorded. As to whose octaves you prefer, I personally do not find octave playing to be the pinnacle of musicianship.. It is a technical feat that is best appreciated in context of what the pianist has to say overall about a particular piece.

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#1624115 - 02/20/11 08:06 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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lol I don't think so at all. Argerich can CERTAINLY play octaves with great control, speed, and accuracy.

Sergio Tiempo is not on the same level as Argerich. And he gots NOTHING on da Ho. Behold his suckage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6eVaTBdP7M

da HO people. come on. Have some respect. Who else could pull his Waldstein coda octave 'glissando'? Have any of you ever tried to do that at the piano? It's impossible!

Not for da HO.

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#1624140 - 02/20/11 08:42 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i vote for OSK, with Argerich a close second.

Horowitz is awesome at many things. I don't know that octaves are his forte.
_________________________
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#1624143 - 02/20/11 08:42 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
I didn't say I prefered Tiempo to Argerich or Horowitz full stop, I said I prefered his tchaikovsky octaves.

I've seen a number of students accomplish the octave glissandi in the Waldstein perfectly well, its difficult but not impossible.

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#1624148 - 02/20/11 08:45 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
argerichfan Online   sick
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Registered: 11/15/06
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'Tis fun to stir up the pot occasionally if only to make sure folks here are alive and kicking. laugh

Few people are as much in awe of Horowitz as I am, but sometimes I can't resist being a bit wicked. (And yes, I have heard Sergio Tiempo... no slouch, that one!)
_________________________
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#1624154 - 02/20/11 08:51 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: debrucey]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I didn't say I prefered Tiempo to Argerich or Horowitz full stop, I said I prefered his tchaikovsky octaves.

I've seen a number of students accomplish the octave glissandi in the Waldstein perfectly well, its difficult but not impossible.


Dude, have you even HEARD the Horowitz Walstein recording?

Cause what you have written suggests you are not familiar with the recording.

Yes, the octave glissando is not too difficult to execute on a piano in good condition.

Go listen to the recording, and hopefully you will understand what I mean. He doesn't PLAY the glisando. He plays OCTAVES.

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#1624157 - 02/20/11 08:54 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Of course I've heard the recording. I probably listen to it about once a week.


Edited by debrucey (02/20/11 08:55 AM)

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#1624163 - 02/20/11 09:02 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
And you are telling me you have seen a number of students play the octave glissandi the way Horowitz does?

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#1624177 - 02/20/11 09:35 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Please, anyone doubting that octaves were 'his forte', do yourself a favour and listen at around 6:05 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DvTvWoBxKw&feature=related

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#1624180 - 02/20/11 09:44 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
hello..


i was kind of kidding there.. at least tongue in cheek so to speak, justanotherpianist. All of his playing is his forte. (i love the photos of H and R in this film you linked.. so young and fresh.)
_________________________
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love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1624185 - 02/20/11 09:51 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
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lol I know what you mean, apple. Still, in all my days I have not come across a Rach 3 with the same fury in that passage.

....and those are just his left hand octaves...

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#1624187 - 02/20/11 09:59 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I've never heard any part of his Rach 3! It is awesome!... the best I've heard ever.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1624385 - 02/20/11 01:45 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Andromaque]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: Andromaque
.....In my opinion however, Argerich's breadth of repertoire, particularly in chamber music, offers substantial support for superlative musicianship.....

That's maybe as good an example as could be imagined for what I said about "musicianship" being subjective to an extent that people could not even agree on what's involved in it. IMO what you said has nothing whatsoever to do with their musicianship.

"Musicianship" to me is an inner quality, actually a set of inner qualities, that are manifested in one's playing. Unless one plays extremely little stuff or not enough of a range to show those qualities, the amount and types of repertoire that he/she plays have no bearing.

And as long as we're on the subject of collaborative repertoire, one of the most impressive things I ever came across about Horowitz's "musicianship" was his performance of the Dichterliebe with Fischer-Dieskau in the mid-'70's at a big celebration where numerous greats performed. It floored me, not because I would have doubted that he had the "musicianship" to do the music and the collaboration so well, while fully still being 'Horowitz,' but because (I assumed) he was so "out of practice" on 'accompanying' for lieder (like maybe 50 years worth), plus that his "personality" might have gotten in the way of it. And it didn't; it enhanced it.
_________________________
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#1624493 - 02/20/11 03:33 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: jeffreyjones]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13813
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Horowitz was not at his best in 1983. In fact, I think that was probably the rock bottom for him. He was heavily medicated and was prone to memory lapses.


I think the people who've uploaded Horowitz's 1983 performances to YouTube should be rounded up and shot. To anthologize and present a pianist's worst performances for all the world to see shows a lack of respect and decency, and does nothing to promote the arts or the artist.

Sometimes I worry about the state of our culture. We seem to think we deserve to have access to everyone's worst moments, and we turn everything into a reality show. (Like this thread, for example. It started out as a discussion of Horowitz's octave technique, and it quickly became one of those phony television contests: Who's octaves are best? Who gets voted off OctaveSurvivor this week? Only Argerich and Horowitz remain, who will win?" In the real world of people who haven't lost their brain cells to television, there is no such contest. We get to enjoy both pianists.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1624495 - 02/20/11 03:34 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
Palindrome Offline
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Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3916
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
...one of the most impressive things I ever came across about Horowitz's "musicianship" was his performance of the Dichterliebe with Fischer-Dieskau in the mid-'70's at a big celebration where numerous greats performed. It floored me, not because I would have doubted that he had the "musicianship" to do the music and the collaboration so well, while fully still being 'Horowitz,' but because (I assumed) he was so "out of practice" on 'accompanying' for lieder (like maybe 50 years worth), plus that his "personality" might have gotten in the way of it. And it didn't; it enhanced it.


Did you have the great good fortune to actually be there, or is this available on recording somewhere?
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#1624535 - 02/20/11 04:18 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Kreisler]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Horowitz was not at his best in 1983. In fact, I think that was probably the rock bottom for him. He was heavily medicated and was prone to memory lapses.


I think the people who've uploaded Horowitz's 1983 performances to YouTube should be rounded up and shot. To anthologize and present a pianist's worst performances for all the world to see shows a lack of respect and decency, and does nothing to promote the arts or the artist.


I think it's of tremendous interest. There are many good things in the octave etude (including a fine middle section and a few bars at the end where he really pulls it all together and gives a glimpse of what he would have been like in his prime). The C sharp minor Etude is absolutely superb and there are many good things in Carnaval, despite memory lapses. I was actually very surprised how fine the playing is, after hearing all the stories. If momentary errors mean disaster, then it's a disaster. Personally, I'd far sooner look past them (no matter how many) and hear how much wonderful stuff is also on offer.
_________________________
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#1624539 - 02/20/11 04:23 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Kreisler]
debrucey Offline
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Horowitz was not at his best in 1983. In fact, I think that was probably the rock bottom for him. He was heavily medicated and was prone to memory lapses.


I think the people who've uploaded Horowitz's 1983 performances to YouTube should be rounded up and shot. To anthologize and present a pianist's worst performances for all the world to see shows a lack of respect and decency, and does nothing to promote the arts or the artist.

Sometimes I worry about the state of our culture. We seem to think we deserve to have access to everyone's worst moments, and we turn everything into a reality show. (Like this thread, for example. It started out as a discussion of Horowitz's octave technique, and it quickly became one of those phony television contests: Who's octaves are best? Who gets voted off OctaveSurvivor this week? Only Argerich and Horowitz remain, who will win?" In the real world of people who haven't lost their brain cells to television, there is no such contest. We get to enjoy both pianists.


Calm down.

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#1624545 - 02/20/11 04:29 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
Andromaque Offline
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Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
.....In my opinion however, Argerich's breadth of repertoire, particularly in chamber music, offers substantial support for superlative musicianship.....

That's maybe as good an example as could be imagined for what I said about "musicianship" being subjective to an extent that people could not even agree on what's involved in it. IMO what you said has nothing whatsoever to do with their musicianship.

"Musicianship" to me is an inner quality, actually a set of inner qualities, that are manifested in one's playing. Unless one plays extremely little stuff or not enough of a range to show those qualities, the amount and types of repertoire that he/she plays have no bearing.

And as long as we're on the subject of collaborative repertoire, one of the most impressive things I ever came across about Horowitz's "musicianship" was his performance of the Dichterliebe with Fischer-Dieskau in the mid-'70's at a big celebration where numerous greats performed. It floored me, not because I would have doubted that he had the "musicianship" to do the music and the collaboration so well, while fully still being 'Horowitz,' but because (I assumed) he was so "out of practice" on 'accompanying' for lieder (like maybe 50 years worth), plus that his "personality" might have gotten in the way of it. And it didn't; it enhanced it.



Yeah.. I see what you are saying (long-windedly.. smile ). But I am not so wildly far off.. Breadth of repertoire allows opportunities to experience versatility, more complex voicing, understnandng the role of entries by other instruments, harmonizing with them, varying your technique to fit a different style and purpose of the music etc.. It is not breadth in the quantitative sense, ie playing more pieces..
Bt yes sure, the definition of musicianship can be subjective.. Just not as subjective as you present it to be..

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#1624563 - 02/20/11 04:50 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: debrucey]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Horowitz was not at his best in 1983. In fact, I think that was probably the rock bottom for him. He was heavily medicated and was prone to memory lapses.


I think the people who've uploaded Horowitz's 1983 performances to YouTube should be rounded up and shot. To anthologize and present a pianist's worst performances for all the world to see shows a lack of respect and decency, and does nothing to promote the arts or the artist.

Sometimes I worry about the state of our culture. We seem to think we deserve to have access to everyone's worst moments, and we turn everything into a reality show. (Like this thread, for example. It started out as a discussion of Horowitz's octave technique, and it quickly became one of those phony television contests: Who's octaves are best? Who gets voted off OctaveSurvivor this week? Only Argerich and Horowitz remain, who will win?" In the real world of people who haven't lost their brain cells to television, there is no such contest. We get to enjoy both pianists.


Calm down.


Why? He's right.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1624568 - 02/20/11 04:54 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Nope. He's WRONG.

Horowitz remains on OCTAVESURVIVOR!

Everyone else has been voted off.

It's not about the music.... it's about the OCTAVES!

OCTAVESURVIVOR.

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#1624585 - 02/20/11 05:17 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
He may be right, but he's still taking what is supposed to be a lighthearted discussion rather too seriously. Mind you, many people on here are too prone to bouts of sensationalism. Like, chill out dudes.

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#1624586 - 02/20/11 05:21 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6225
Loc: St. Louis area
--------------Horowitz
--------------Rubinstein
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------Argerich....zzzzzz
-------------- laugh
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1624606 - 02/20/11 06:02 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Palindrome]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: Palindrome
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
......Horowitz's...performance of the Dichterliebe with Fischer-Dieskau in the mid-'70's at a big celebration where numerous greats performed....

Did you have the great good fortune to actually be there, or is this available on recording somewhere?

Wasn't there, but have it on LP.
I was going to tell more about it, but I can do better than that -- I can show you. smile
It's on youtube (in 3 parts), with an image of the LP right at the beginning (and you can see some of the other names that performed at the concert).



Horowitz's playing is (as usual) a little controversial. Some feel he didn't do the usual good collaborative thing that one should do. I feel what I said.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1624608 - 02/20/11 06:05 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Andromaque]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Yeah.. I see what you are saying (long-windedly.. smile ).....

Thanks -- but please show me any words or phrases that you think were extraneous. smile

Quote:
.....sure, the definition of musicianship can be subjective.. Just not as subjective as you present it to be.

Since you want me to be briefer, I will:
You're wrong. ha

Look how different our definitions are. If you really think Argerich's playing more chamber music has anything to do with a comparison of their musicianship (I can't tell if you do, because you seemed perhaps to somewhat take it back or minimize it in that last post).....if you do, then our definitions are very, very far apart.

P.S. I could have done without one of those "very's." ha
_________________________
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#1624612 - 02/20/11 06:13 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: JustAnotherPianist]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
Why? He's right.

Originally Posted By: JustAnotherPianist
Nope. He's WRONG.

Originally Posted By: debrucey
He may be right....

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
You're wrong. ha

Where's Horowitzian when we need him? ha
_________________________
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#1624629 - 02/20/11 06:29 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Bech Offline
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Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 844
Loc: Indiana
Try Tiempo T1 in the YouTube search box for Sergio Tiempo's octaves.

Then, if the spirit moves you, give his other YouTube performances a look.

He's a friend and former student of Argerich's.

Bech


Edited by Bech (02/20/11 06:30 PM)
_________________________
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#1624630 - 02/20/11 06:29 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Palindrome
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
......Horowitz's...performance of the Dichterliebe with Fischer-Dieskau in the mid-'70's at a big celebration where numerous greats performed....

Did you have the great good fortune to actually be there, or is this available on recording somewhere?

Wasn't there, but have it on LP.
I was going to tell more about it, but I can do better than that -- I can show you. smile
It's on youtube (in 3 parts), with an image of the LP right at the beginning (and you can see some of the other names that performed at the concert).



Horowitz's playing is (as usual) a little controversial. Some feel he didn't do the usual good collaborative thing that one should do. I feel what I said.


at Palindrome..



WOW
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1624639 - 02/20/11 06:36 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: apple*]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Nice link, Apple!
I had forgotten that at that concert Horowitz also played a movement of the Tchaikovsky Trio (with Stern & Rostropovich).

....and here that is too:

_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1624723 - 02/20/11 08:31 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Mark_C]
Andromaque Offline
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Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(I can't tell if you do, because you seemed perhaps to somewhat take it back or minimize it in that last post).....if you do, then our definitions are very, very far apart.

P.S. I could have done without one of those "very's." ha


I did not take it back. Not sure where/why you "detected" that.
Actually the fact that his lieder playing impressed you by its "musicianship" speaks in favor of my definition, like it or not. To clarify again: I am not equating musicianship simply with "playing chamber music", but proposing that doing so brilliantly speaks additional volumes about an artist's musical abilities. In fact dismissing that component altogether when comparing those two otherwise very accomplished artists, is odd, IMHO!!

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#1624724 - 02/20/11 08:32 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon
--------------Horowitz
--------------Rubinstein
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------Argerich....zzzzzz
-------------- laugh

Good grief, bloody hell. Rubinstein's octaves over Argerich? What are you smoking? There is a lot I admire about Rubinstein -and those treacherous octaves in the Chopin F minor Fantasy are well addressed- but in general Rubinstein's octaves are the Toyota Camry compared to Argerich's BMW 3 series.

Watch this interesting interview with Sir Charles Groves. There is some great footage of Argerich's octaves (they are really awesome), also her priceless English: 'I am not afraid of speed on the contrary, on the contrary that is my problem.'

_________________________
Jason

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#1624746 - 02/20/11 09:40 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6225
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
--------------Horowitz
--------------Rubinstein
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------Argerich....zzzzzz
-------------- laugh

Good grief, bloody hell. Rubinstein's octaves over Argerich? What are you smoking? There is a lot I admire about Rubinstein -and those treacherous octaves in the Chopin F minor Fantasy are well addressed- but in general Rubinstein's octaves are the Toyota Camry compared to Argerich's BMW 3 series.


Sorry, I was sidetracked on the musicality comments, though a very young Rubinstein showed evidence of playing octaves as he pleased. Argerich is very fast but I'm bored by her playing. It sounds very thoughtless and rushed to me. (of course I don't expect you to agree with this either) wink
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1624756 - 02/20/11 09:55 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Argerich is very fast but I'm bored by her playing. It sounds very thoughtless and rushed to me. (of course I don't expect you to agree with this either) wink

Well of course not, no more than we agree politically.

At least disagreements over Argerich do not constitute a danger to the well being humanity. Ha ha! laugh

BTW, please change my name on the Liszt e-cital to 'argerichfan', not 'Argerichfan'. Always the small capital 'a' out of respect.

Practising the 'Preludio' is going well, but it is not a piece new to my repertoire. Just trying to get the damn thing back into my hands.
_________________________
Jason

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#1624763 - 02/20/11 10:09 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6225
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
Argerich is very fast but I'm bored by her playing. It sounds very thoughtless and rushed to me. (of course I don't expect you to agree with this either) wink

Well of course not, no more than we agree politically.

At least disagreements over Argerich do not constitute a danger to the well being humanity. Ha ha! laugh

Yes, some want humanity to continue while others prefer to have humans mimic the behaviour of ants. ha
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

BTW, please change my name on the Liszt e-cital to 'argerichfan', not 'Argerichfan'. Always the small capital 'a' out of respect.


OK

Originally Posted By: argerichfan

Practising the 'Preludio' is going well, but it is not a piece new to my repertoire. Just trying to get the damn thing back into my hands.

smile Mine are all new to me, but I always meant to add them.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1624798 - 02/20/11 11:07 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Mine are all new to me, but I always meant to add them.

So you just started? Get to work, matey!

laugh
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624823 - 02/20/11 11:42 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6225
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
Mine are all new to me, but I always meant to add them.

So you just started? Get to work, matey!

laugh


I'm working harder on this than most things in a long time. smile Getting back on topic, I think the thing that makes Horowitz's octaves so compelling is the way he finishes them. For instance, in the G minor Ballade ascending runs he accelerates them to the last note. I've noticed that he drops a thumb here and there, but the overall effect is hair-raising. Katsaris has some fast octaves too.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#1624827 - 02/20/11 11:50 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Hamelin's octaves > Horowitz's octaves, in my personal opinion. They are every bit as fast and sound much more refined to me.

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#1624828 - 02/20/11 11:52 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Katsaris has some fast octaves too.

Most definitely, Katsaris is in a class by himself.

Why is he not considered one of the top pianists today? I'll take him over that silly Asian (whatever his name is) anyday.

I just made 6000 posts. Cheers!
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624829 - 02/20/11 11:53 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Hamelin's octaves > Horowitz's octaves, in my personal opinion. They are every bit as fast and sound much more refined to me.

More so than Argerich?
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624830 - 02/20/11 11:53 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
Katsaris has some fast octaves too.

Most definitely, Katsaris is in a class by himself.

Why is he not considered one of the top pianists today? I'll take him over that silly Asian (whatever his name is) anyday.

I just made 6000 posts. Cheers!


His octaves are tremendous.

Whee!! I made 2316 posts! Let's celebrate!

Top
#1624831 - 02/20/11 11:55 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Hamelin's octaves > Horowitz's octaves, in my personal opinion. They are every bit as fast and sound much more refined to me.

More so than Argerich?


The world shall never know where I stand on that issue!

Top
#1624832 - 02/20/11 11:57 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

Whee!! I made 2316 posts! Let's celebrate!

A Starbucks latte for you.

Me, I'll take a fine French wine. Not real big on the California stuff...
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624834 - 02/20/11 11:58 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

The world shall never know where I stand on that issue!

I didn't realize there was an issue.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624835 - 02/20/11 11:59 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

Whee!! I made 2316 posts! Let's celebrate!

A Starbucks latte for you.

Me, I'll take a fine French wine. Not real big on the California stuff...


I'm not a coffee drinker, actually. How does hot chocolate sound?

No even better, how about a nice big

Top
#1624838 - 02/21/11 12:04 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
But listen to this bloke:

_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624850 - 02/21/11 12:19 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
How does hot chocolate sound?

Thanks anyway, OSK, I don't do sugar, I'm one of them dreaded 'health food' freaks. No fast food, no processed food, I always eat healthy.

Now I'm trying to justify why that medium-rare steak tasted so awesome last night. And then there was the garlic bread, the blue-cheese salad dressing, the deep fried calamari with succulent sauce, baked potatoes with rich sour cream, broccoli with cheddar cheese sauce, it was all so grotesque. And I'm not even mentioning the wine or dessert, nor even the beautiful waiters.

Damn. Sometimes it's so hard to be a liberal.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624853 - 02/21/11 12:24 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
How does hot chocolate sound?

Thanks anyway, OSK, I don't do sugar, I'm one of them dreaded 'health food' freaks. No fast food, no processed food, I always eat healthy.

Now I'm trying to justify why that medium-rare steak tasted so awesome last night. And then there was the garlic bread, the blue-cheese salad dressing, the deep fried calamari with succulent sauce, baked potatoes with rich sour cream, broccoli with cheddar cheese sauce, it was all so grotesque. And I'm not even mentioning the wine or dessert, nor even the beautiful waiters.

Damn. Sometimes it's so hard to be a liberal.



Hey dude, I just meant that I get the hot chocolate (or Orange Crush, haha), and you get whatever your heart most desires!

By the way, I like that video you posted! laugh

Top
#1624859 - 02/21/11 12:33 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
..... For instance, in the G minor Ballade ascending runs he accelerates them to the last note. I've noticed that he drops a thumb here and there....

Aha!!!
(Gotta try that.....)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1624868 - 02/21/11 12:53 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Isn't this essentially the Horowitz take on Liszt's wedding march?

Before I post it, two things: Mendelssohn is underrated, and someday I would love to get married.


_________________________
Jason

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#1624873 - 02/21/11 01:11 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6225
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
Katsaris has some fast octaves too.

Most definitely, Katsaris is in a class by himself.

Why is he not considered one of the top pianists today?


I consider him one of the top pianists today.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#1624876 - 02/21/11 01:19 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6225
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

Now I'm trying to justify why that medium-rare steak tasted so awesome last night.

Damn. Sometimes it's so hard to be a liberal.


Yes, since cattle rearing creates more greenhouse gases than cars, I can see why you have difficulty justifying your politics. laugh
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#1624891 - 02/21/11 01:53 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon

Yes, since cattle rearing creates more greenhouse gases than cars, I can see why you have difficulty justifying your politics. laugh

No, I have no difficulty justifying my politics. Conservatives routinely ignore scientific evidence because by nature they are programmed to think that the planet is theirs for the taking. I see this attitude so often. Sorry, mate. laugh
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1624920 - 02/21/11 04:22 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
--------------Horowitz
--------------Rubinstein
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------
--------------Argerich....zzzzzz
-------------- laugh

Good grief, bloody hell. Rubinstein's octaves over Argerich? What are you smoking? There is a lot I admire about Rubinstein -and those treacherous octaves in the Chopin F minor Fantasy are well addressed- but in general Rubinstein's octaves are the Toyota Camry compared to Argerich's BMW 3 series.

Watch this interesting interview with Sir Charles Groves. There is some great footage of Argerich's octaves (they are really awesome), also her priceless English: 'I am not afraid of speed on the contrary, on the contrary that is my problem.'



Poor old Charles, waiting for the camera to stop rolling. Standing there wondering if he's gonna find out if her reputation is just reputation.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1624986 - 02/21/11 08:41 AM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Mendelssohn is underrated


Maybe overall as a composer, because I've sung some of his music in choir and it is AWESOME, but I'm having trouble getting into his piano music besides the Variations Serieuses.

Top
#1625153 - 02/21/11 12:12 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: stores]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: stores

Poor old Charles, waiting for the camera to stop rolling. Standing there wondering if he's gonna find out if her reputation is just reputation.

Nasty. blush
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1625158 - 02/21/11 12:19 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: Bech]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
I would love to have got to know Sir Charles. He seems so lovely.

Top
#1625194 - 02/21/11 01:28 PM Re: Horowitz's Octaves [Re: debrucey]
argerichfan Online   sick
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8927
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: debrucey
I would love to have got to know Sir Charles. He seems so lovely.

You can visit his ashes in the crypt of St. Paul's Cathedral. They're in one of the chapels. Stanford -and I believe Parry- are in the floor.
_________________________
Jason

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