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#1619594 - 02/14/11 08:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)

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#1619692 - 02/14/11 11:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: chrisbell]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
For those of you wanting to get deeper into this jazz thingie, I recommend having a look and listen through Chuck Israel's (former Bill Evans bassplayer) jazz online jazz arranging course. It's free, with score examples as well as audio. Just lesson 1 is worth a peak. Here.

(you need to have Flash installed; don't have it? Get it for free here )

Hi Chris

I followed this link from page 45.
This is very interesting. Good examples. I will come back to this again shortly.
thanks for posting this even if it was 2 years ago.

SC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1619740 - 02/14/11 12:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty


LOL - couldn't you find a ballad version? smile
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#1619743 - 02/14/11 12:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
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Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Yes it is, its actually pretty great the whole course.
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#1619886 - 02/14/11 03:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
These are stride I think.
Not alternating root and rootless though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxadblDT6zI&feature=fvst

Knotty
dont know if the youtube was in response to my request.
Blue bossa I'm familiar with the melody. I dont know the chords and cant get my ears around the base sound. would take me time to learn the chords to a new song and then notice the missing root. I supose my question was a bit futile at this early stage.

Ah well.

Just for an update
I'm still practicing my quaver runs. Still focusing on the offbeat and also getting in sync and letting chord tones ring. When I am happy i will add in the new stuff. Thinking in even numbers leaves you on a Chord tone so thanks for that knotty. 4 or 6 notes.
Also now looking into the different chord voicings past my initial 1,7 hence interest in rootless.

I only get about 15min to 30min practice a night 4 to 5 nights a week so takes my hands 5 min to warm up and not much to practice. Is this a big or small or normal amount of practice.??
I am heading away for two weeks end of the month so I will try and get something up before then.

Talk Talk
SC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1619914 - 02/14/11 04:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Thinking in groups of 4 is good especially for remembering patterns. I tend to practice chord tone/non chord tone in groups of 4, though I don't accent it as such.

However, as you get further advanced, even this concept is left behind and these just become tool kits for melody making.

At my level, it's finally sinking in but hard to really concentrate on doing in performance. Easier when I'm practicing.

SC, what is excellent is that when you let it "ring", you're actually into the melody making aspect. And that's what I want Saiman to hear to. The patterns get you there (since they're commonly used).

But one needs to hear proper phrasing in one's ear.
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#1620355 - 02/15/11 01:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi wee, when you say let it "ring", do you mean holding the chord tone rather than shortening it? Im a bit confused. If that is the case, how does that apply if you are playing a series of eight notes?

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#1620362 - 02/15/11 02:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
hi wee, when you say let it "ring", do you mean holding the chord tone rather than shortening it? Im a bit confused. If that is the case, how does that apply if you are playing a series of eight notes?



Yup. There's something melodic about holding a chord tone when it feels like you're resolving a melodic phrase. If you listen to a lot of jazz, you will hear this a lot.

So it breaks up a series of eighth notes into a melodic statement. The length of ringing is decided at the moment. Quarter, half or whole, depending on the moment.

It's like the eighths provide the tension and then the longer notes act like release.

It's all about manipulation of tension and release that makes it all sound good.
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#1620407 - 02/15/11 06:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
LESSON #3

Progressing from LH 1/7's
[b]Style B


Am7 (LH fingers 521 playing 1/5/7), D7 (LH fingers 531 playing 1/3/7). This is the fuller LH sound and is an easy natural next step from the LH 1/7.

Style B is good for chords on LH only which leaves the RH free to do only the melody or solo.

Now notice that the Am7 has a 5 in the middle while the the D7 has a 3 in the middle. This is because lower chords (Like root at A2) get muddy with a 3rd. The 5th is high enough. On the other hand, the D7 does not sound muddy with a 3rd (D3).

So basically in this style of playing add a middle note to the chord, a 5th or 3rd depending on which is less muddy


My LH I think is


Chord notes in LH depending on muddyness
A Section

| [A E G] | [D F# C] | [G D F#] | [C E B] |
| [F# C E] | [B F# A] | [E B D] | [E D, G] | 

I chose 5th in B7b9 cause it is low. Is my thoughts and notes here good.
Still doing my 15 min of improv.

Talk talk
SCabáiste
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1620439 - 02/15/11 08:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Thinking in even numbers leaves you on a Chord tone so thanks for that knotty. 4 or 6 notes.

SC,

you're reading way too much into the little exercise I suggested. Read my post again, and if you feel like it, try it.

Take care++

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#1620755 - 02/15/11 02:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi wee, i tried doing what you said but I dont think i nailed it as yet. I realized that I got into this habbit of thinking swing is long short rather than accenting the offbeats

http://www.box.net/shared/t8lbr8rtc3

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#1620769 - 02/15/11 02:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
hi wee, i tried doing what you said but I dont think i nailed it as yet. I realized that I got into this habbit of thinking swing is long short rather than accenting the offbeats

http://www.box.net/shared/t8lbr8rtc3



Better Saiman! Putting accents on offbeats really makes you think of the offbeats rather than just long short.

If you listen to my teacher's playing in ATTYA (including the slowed down version), it's clear he does accent the offbeats all the time. So I just always do it.

After a while, you'll make your own judgement of how much accent to use and when (pretty difficult to accent then the tempo goes up for us normal folks). This becomes a stylistic choice.

At the early stage though, it is best to rely on the feel of the offbeat accent rather than long-short. You will also notice (and I did notice on your playing), that accenting the offbeat improves your legato. After a while the offbeat accent becomes more of a feel of lingering rather than requiring actual force.

The actual point though is to deemphasize the downbeat.
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#1621094 - 02/16/11 01:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi again,

I started reading all the discussions on swing and listening to the youtube links of the pro's playing. I think my problem is that I cant hear the difference between the various styles. Wee you mention in the beginning of this tread that Tristano plays almost straight 8ts but I cannot help but hearing the long-short thing. What can i do to start "hearing" more accurately?

Knotty maybe you can help here aswell.

Thanks so much

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#1621107 - 02/16/11 02:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Just a few pages back, I posted a slowed down version of my teacher's swing. This one is played straight with offbeat accents.

It takes awhile to hear this.

I still get arguments about this to this day because not everyone can hear. When I first started, I laid my doubts to rest by studying waveforms and slowing it down. Read a little bit of my blog because there's some specifics involved with this.

There are parts of swing that are 100% constant with all players. It's not about long-short. It's about the position of the offbeat (or swung eighth) which is ALWAYS in the same spot. The 3 of a triplet. Everything else can vary but this is the constant.

It is hard to hear this or understand it and this is what people confuse as long-short. This offbeat position is not on the top of the OFFBEAT or DOWNBEAT so it is delayed.

This is not explained in the early parts of this thread because I just understood this recently.

Early on, my training was just "accent offbeats". It's a good place to start so just do that and it will come.

As a comparison, you can compare the playing of Oscar Peterson and early Bill Evans which used a lot of "Long-shorts" or harder swing. Modern style players play it straighter (Herbie, Chick, Mehldau, Charlap, Werner, etc.).

But just understand that Long-Short is dependent on tempo too. There is no long-short in uptempo jazz, but it has to exist at 100bpm. Where each player starts playing straight is a matter of style. Newer players start playing straight at 150. Older players will take it higher (maybe up to 180).

Also understand that at slow tempos, long-short is NOT a perfect triplet. The downbeat is always slighty delayed in hard swing. It is VERY delayed in straight playing.

Just keep this all in the back of your head. In the meantime just train yourself to accent offbeats and it will come.
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#1621109 - 02/16/11 02:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
BTW - Saiman, what I played in the recital was a harder swing (in case you think I would never do that).
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#1621668 - 02/16/11 08:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Saiman,

Each player has a unique style. Some more than others, and that contributes to how easy they are to recognize.
Compare Monk to Bill Evans for example. You can tell the difference. It doesn't really matter if you can put words or logic to it.
You will develop your own natural style, too, or perhaps already have.

When you listen to the masters, it can be confusing because they often switch feel. Quite often actually.

A teacher is best in this case. Earlier, a sample of a top player was posted playing ATTYA in a very simple fashion. Those examples are rare because monster musicians usually don't spend their time playing 8th notes lines. Unless they're teaching.
Yet, this is exactly what you want to develop, a strong foundation for playing a free flow of 8th notes. So use that sample and try to emulate it. Listen to it, play, listen, play, listen play.

My recommendation, as I told SC earlier, is simple. Simply play in blocks of 4, slightly, and I mean slightly accenting the 1st of the 4.
That will make you swing with minimum consideration for theory.
One way to help is to sing along.

Ultimately, you can do anything else. There are no rules (as far as I know) in Jazz. But it's mandatory to study the masters. People that you must study are Louis Armstrong, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Clifford Brown, Pat Metheny, Miles Davis, and many many more.

You should really find yourself a teacher if you can. It will keep you disciplined. A teacher is very helpful because it will slow you down. If you rush from one thing to the next, you'll slow yourself down. Go slow, and you'll get there faster.

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#1621827 - 02/17/11 01:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
thank you Knotty. I have started lessons with Dave so I am sure he will get me there over time. I probably want to learn everything there is in a month. Will just stick to Joy of Improv for now and concentrate on that.

Question: When you play the Jazz Hanon and you accent the first of four, wouldnt that then fall on the downbeat?

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#1621880 - 02/17/11 05:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
Yup, Saiman, you are trying to do too much at once.
You have to start somewhere. Start with counting in 4s, downbeat is absolutely fine for now. When you listen to great swingers such as Ben Webster and Benny Carter, you will hear this clearly.
Emphasising the upbeat is another layer you can worry about later IMO.

That is great news about taking lessons with Dave.

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#1621921 - 02/17/11 07:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Saiman,

>>Question: When you play the Jazz Hanon and you accent the first of four, wouldnt that then fall on the downbeat?
1. Don't worry about thinking in 4s for hanons. Dave will show you this when you start improvising, whenever that is.
2. Listen to the track that comes with the book. That's the answer. Depends on the exercise.

Congrats on taking lessons. They should keep you really busy. Say hi for me wink

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#1622045 - 02/17/11 11:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Saiman's taking lessons with Dave? Great! smile

Now I have a question about the singing. I can sing the first cornet solo of Struttin (32 bars). Is that enough or am I supposed to do the whole thing? Just curious, as I haven't bought the book yet.

Saiman, does he teach using the book?
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#1622310 - 02/17/11 04:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Now I have a question about the singing. I can sing the first cornet solo of Struttin (32 bars). Is that enough or am I supposed to do the whole thing?

Are you having fun with this? Do as much as you can. This is something you can easily do away from the piano. Just replay the solo like 10 times. First listen than try to sing along. Once you vaguely get the whole solo, start splitting it as much as it makes sense. 1, 2 or 3 bars, and try to nail it down. The key being to try and sing with the correct pitch. How well you sing isn't that relevant.

If you have transcribe!, that's very helpful for this.

>> Does he teach using the book?
Yes, you'll complete the foundation, and then move on to other things. It's kind of up to you what you want to learn, but you gotta have the foundation. Depending on your level, it might take a while to complete the 2 books. But you can start improvising very soon.

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#1622352 - 02/17/11 06:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 646
Just the Louie solos, including heads, is ok:)

DF

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#1622420 - 02/17/11 07:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
Hi 10
That is so kool that you've started studying Lesson 1. Have fun singing - it only gets funner. I'm up to Perhaps by Bird which is very melodic and has great phrasing.
And over time you will refine your own methodology for singing.
As Knotty said, Transcribe is great. For example, if you like, you can use the Text function and label your phrase numbers, whatever works for you.

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#1622633 - 02/18/11 02:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty

You should really find yourself a teacher if you can. It will keep you disciplined. A teacher is very helpful because it will slow you down. If you rush from one thing to the next, you'll slow yourself down. Go slow, and you'll get there faster.



This is absolutely the hardest thing to do without a teacher - is to gauge where you are, when you are ready to move on, and to what. What to do to make it better? Because sometimes, adding a layer of complication is *not* actually the best thing.

I think probably my natural fault is to stick doing what I am comfortable with, rather than move on. That's why I'm trying to do lots of listening, so that the repertoire is at least familiar.
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#1622637 - 02/18/11 03:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Hi everyone, hi Dave! whome

Yes, I had fun with Struttin' but also find it quite frustrating. I realise it's a good exercise, and I remember Knotty suggested this kind of thing a long time ago. It makes me want to get my cornet out. But the thing is in a right state - the valves are all seized up, all the moving bits in fact. And I'm just physically pathetic, having borne two kids since I last played. Yes, I'm sure it would do me a lot of good, but there are only so many hours in the day, and for very few of them do I actually get to make some noise.

What gets me is that I never played jazz when I was actually physically able. And I got so bored with cornet music because there was so little written for it - except jazz.

So, having got that out... yes, I have Transcribe but I didn't use it for struttin. I've just listened on the bus, and when I took my son to Tae Kwon Do and had to wait in the car for an hour. Scat singing fills those times easily. OK, on the bus I just listened and imagined I was singing.

I will get JOI for my birthday (May), until then I am limited to the first lesson. This isn't a problem as I have lots to be doing in any case.
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#1622653 - 02/18/11 04:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
You're funny 10, it's great Struttin' had that effect on you !

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#1622717 - 02/18/11 07:46 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> I think probably my natural fault is to stick doing what I am comfortable with, rather than move on. That's why I'm trying to do lots of listening, so that the repertoire is at least familiar.

It's tough knowing what you're comfortable with, versus what you think you are comfortable with, but really repeating mistakes.
It's the issue with forums like these, there's just so much information, it's all too tempting. Also, doing hanons 10 mins / day for a year requires a bit of discipline, but it's not like you're doing the same one every day, or at the same tempo. So it should always feel challenging. In Joi, Dave explains sustain vs challenge tempo.

Tlt,
I think you found the perfect time to practice singing with solos. If the music gets too fast, you can re-record it on your ipod via transcribe and do the same you're doing now.

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#1622997 - 02/18/11 02:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
I've reached a compromise with myself. I hoovered about a tonne of dust off the old case and made this recording with the mouthpiece:

http://www.box.net/shared/rnsfi82krn

I'll practice with the mouthpiece for a week, and then decide if I want to get the cornet reconditioned. There was something about listening to Louis that I can't quite explain, but I needed to tongue it. To feel that buzz in my lips. Singing's no good.

Miles Davis never did that to me.

Now that I think about it knotty, I can even take my laptop with me to Tae Kwon Do and use transcribe there. It is so useful just to be able to play the one phrase again and again till you get it.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1623024 - 02/18/11 03:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Now that I think about it knotty, I can even take my laptop with me to Tae Kwon Do and use transcribe there. It is so useful just to be able to play the one phrase again and again till you get it.

sounds good.
I learned that solo probably 2 years ago, and I still can sing it for you note for note. When you take away all the stuff around Louis, like banjo, bad recording quality, clarinets etc... it sounds surprisingly modern...
I did use the piano a lot to find out the pitches. Maybe that's cheating smile

btw, I'll listen to the cornet recording a little later. Got the tuner in here giving me a headache smirk



Edited by knotty (02/18/11 03:15 PM)

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#1623045 - 02/18/11 03:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Hi TLT, welcome to joy of improv. So good to have another recruit. Also joing the discussion on the Joy thread. Maybe one day it will be as big as this one

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