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#1616657 - 02/10/11 04:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hi 10
So the blues scale is just the minor pentatonic with a b5 ?


It's that simple. If you learn both pent and blues, then you will be very aware of which is the blue note. Good, because you don't want to land on that note. Pass through it, then land on any other note, but not the blue one.

Quote:

Yes, you're right, that's why Knotty said it's dynamite if you are prepared to persevere with the course. Each lesson develops on the Hanons, voicings and listening. And you will get quicker at learning the tunes.

Dave's masterclasses must be unique, I think I know the Bill Evans one word for word wink


Sounds like what I was looking for from the start.
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#1616658 - 02/10/11 04:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Online   blank
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2266
Loc: Sydney
It's a comprehensive course which provides you with daily exercises. It is perfect for people like you, because it will fill in any gaps which may have slipped through unnoticed during your 2 years of exploration.
You don't have to worry about the 1st exercise which is the JOI Solo Pattern - it takes a long time.

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#1616674 - 02/10/11 05:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi everyone. TLT has given me a great link to Phild de Greg's website. Amongst the free material is a pdf that theaches you choral style arrangements. The left hand always plays R+7 or R+3 whilst the right hand play the remaining chord tone plus an extension and the melody note. So we have like a 2+2 or 2+3 situation.

I wanted to ask how you guys would apply this to ATTYA. I need a break from autmun leaves so i wanted to work a little bit on this tune.

This is the link to Phil de Greg's choral exercise. I have a feeling that this is a very good way of arranging lead sheets in solo piano.

http://www.phildegreg.com/pdf/Chorale%20Exercises.pdf

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#1616744 - 02/10/11 09:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
custard - there are lots of gaps! :)My learning has been fairly sporadic. My aim is to earn enough to take regular lessons.

saiman - interesting, I printed that exercise off, and that was the one I didn't look at. Must look at it.
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#1616832 - 02/10/11 11:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
hi everyone. TLT has given me a great link to Phild de Greg's website. Amongst the free material is a pdf that theaches you choral style arrangements. The left hand always plays R+7 or R+3 whilst the right hand play the remaining chord tone plus an extension and the melody note. So we have like a 2+2 or 2+3 situation.

I wanted to ask how you guys would apply this to ATTYA. I need a break from autmun leaves so i wanted to work a little bit on this tune.

This is the link to Phil de Greg's choral exercise. I have a feeling that this is a very good way of arranging lead sheets in solo piano.

http://www.phildegreg.com/pdf/Chorale%20Exercises.pdf



Hi Saiman, those voicings are discussed up here under ATTYA. See page 1. 2+2 or 2+3 voicings. Very important. I use them all the time.

Your practice routine should be broad so this is part of it too.

I would say walking bass is too advanced since it's already improvisation with the LH.
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#1617547 - 02/11/11 09:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Jazzwee and others.
Thanks for your advice. I can see improvement slowly.
I continued playing a lead in note to the third as directed.
I tried and mainly succeeded in holding the last not of each run. some places it was just cut short incorrectly and not legato. I also tried to emphasise the off beat even more as suggested.

http://www.box.net/shared/q129vbuxm1

No need to listen to the whole thing I think its six minuits long. I still have work on the thirds into the bars where there are two chords. I will isolate this for practice.

With regard to this exercise how should I progress.

Jazzwee I realy hope you realise how valuable this post is. WYou have created a monster here that is invaluable. I'm up to page 40 on the thread of 110. amazing learning going on here. I think that if people posted more music, even if it is only to let others how they were getting along, tere would be even more learning. The learning in the responses to a posting of a tune by someone are where there is quality learning.

You learn easily from others mistakes. I will try and post as much as possible so others can learn from your comments on my mistakes and playing as much as I can.

Not just Jazzwee by the way. Ther are many people who have passed on great advice. Chris and others as well. You are all fantastic folks.

Are there others that are practicing something that is taking along time that havnt maybe posted in a few months? Would be good just to see how people are getting along even if there is not much progress.

Talk Talk

Swing Cabaiste
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#1617601 - 02/11/11 11:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
What an incredible feel there SwingCabbage! It sounds really jazzy with the phrasing. I'm impressed and also a beginner at piano. I think you're a natural at this or you're really taking the advice truly to heart.

If my teacher heard your phrasing there he'd give you an A+.

Now just go back and listen to it as there are many wrong notes for each chord. Sometimes the notes are not in sync (downbeat not a chord tone). When you let a note ring,make sure it is a chord tone. Thirds are great for ringing of course.

On the problem chords, just sit down and noodle those for a moment. When you do stepwise movements only, you will realize that sometimes you have to resync (land on chord tone on downbeats) by either (a) repeating notes or (b) use a chromatic passtng tone on the offbeat.

Now the next step is to add steps in 3rds. Like I said in my instructions, try chord tones as approach notes, like 5 to 3. This spreads out the sound more. You can also practice spreading out to more octaves (doing the same thing).

I don't know how you're doing this so fast. Better get that new keyboard in since you'll be playing some real tunes in a year at this rate.

I have to admit that my instructions have changed too from before so maybe I'm figuring out how to explain this a little better. I can only refine it if people post music like you do. Otherwise as you say it's just "Talk Talk Talk" smile Keep doing this and we'll be meeting you in the advanced thread soon.
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#1617619 - 02/11/11 11:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
SC,

that's really really good. I've only see a few of your post, and it seems like you haven't been on this thread very long, but the progress is stunning.

Here's one exercise that will take you 5 minutes.
Turn on recording.
Play for 1 minute like you just did.
Now play using all the same rules, but change one component. As you play your quavers, play them in blocks of 4, slightly accenting the first, and only the 1st of the 4. If that helps, you can count 1234 in your head.

Now listen back.

take care++


Edited by knotty (02/11/11 11:47 AM)

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#1617719 - 02/11/11 02:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Way to go SwingC! Swing by name and swingin' by nature. thumb

You've really been practising the swing, haven't you?

As you say, it is more successful in some places than other, but you keep good control, and it will only improve in time and with more practice.
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#1618282 - 02/12/11 01:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire

Wow.
Not used to so much feedback folks.
Wow. I posted and then headed off to the arsehole of nowhere and come back to three very encouraging posts. Many thanks for listening and responding folks.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Now just go back and listen to it as there are many wrong notes for each chord. Sometimes the notes are not in sync (downbeat not a chord tone). When you let a note ring,make sure it is a chord tone. Thirds are great for ringing of course.[\quote]

I knew this before posting but thought progress in other areas merited a posting. Indeed I had planned to ask about leaving a non chord tone ringing but was rushing for the hills. I didn't catch the out of sync so will follow this up with a further listen and try an catch it.


[quote=jazzwee]
On the problem chords, just sit down and noodle those for a moment. When you do stepwise movements only, you will realize that sometimes you have to resync (land on chord tone on downbeats) by either (a) repeating notes or (b) use a chromatic passtng tone on the offbeat.


Chromatic means that I don't have to use an adjacent note in the scale but can use a note a half step away even if not in the scale? Is this correct?

Quote:

Now the next step is to add steps in 3rds. Like I said in my instructions, try chord tones as approach notes, like 5 to 3. This spreads out the sound more. You can also practice spreading out to more octaves (doing the same thing).

Will do.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I don't know how you're doing this so fast. Better get that new keyboard in since you'll be playing some real tunes in a year at this rate.

Moved up to 80 bpm.
got me a yamaha p95
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#1618354 - 02/12/11 03:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: knotty
SC,

that's really really good. I've only see a few of your post, and it seems like you haven't been on this thread very long, but the progress is stunning.

Here's one exercise that will take you 5 minutes.
Turn on recording.
Play for 1 minute like you just did.
Now play using all the same rules, but change one component. As you play your quavers, play them in blocks of 4, slightly accenting the first, and only the 1st of the 4. If that helps, you can count 1234 in your head.

Now listen back.

take care++


Thanks knotty. Will have a go at that.
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#1618355 - 02/12/11 03:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
TLT
Very encouraging. Still gonna plug away. It will come. In good time.
Tanks
SC
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#1618493 - 02/12/11 06:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


Chromatic means that I don't have to use an adjacent note in the scale but can use a note a half step away even if not in the scale? Is this correct?


Correct. Chromatics can always be used on the offbeat and it's excellent for syncing up the chord tones. It's referred to as a "passing tone" when connecting two scale tones.
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#1618608 - 02/12/11 09:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

When a tone doesn't fit, it will be obvious in the sound (like it will imply a completely inappropriate chord).

Is this a milestone type of thing.
From an
Post on page 40
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#1618650 - 02/13/11 12:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

When a tone doesn't fit, it will be obvious in the sound (like it will imply a completely inappropriate chord).

Is this a milestone type of thing.
From an
Post on page 40


No. It's a matter of observation. Let's say you're playing a line on CMaj7.

Constantly focusing on D F A will suggest a Dm.

It's really a basic concept that you have to be aware of what your solo is harmonizing. Did you really want to sound out a Dm over a CMaj7? If this is intentional it is one thing since it sounds off without a purpose.

For the solo to be in sync with the harmony, it would be expected that certain chord tones (3 and 7 and particular) express the harmony and that is why we put them on downbeats.

When you're at an advanced level, you may intentionally go against the chord to cause tension and then release it by coming back to the harmony.
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#1618782 - 02/13/11 07:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
That last post gotaway.
When I can hear notes being wrong against a chord I will have achieved a higher level.
Suppose that's what I was saying.
I can hear it when i listen back. Its also easier to hear when when there is harmony in the background. This will develope as I activly listen


Talk talk
SC
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#1618982 - 02/13/11 12:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi everyone, here is me trying to target thirds and then play a series of eight notes.

Would really appreciate it if you could tell me whether I am on the right track.

Thank you to everyone here especially jazzwee for your encouragement and inspiration

http://www.box.net/shared/nqrbt5dguy

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#1618988 - 02/13/11 12:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
I also tried to apply two handed voicings plus melody to ATTYA.

This is what I came up with for the A section. What do you guys think:

Fm7: F Eb, Ab C Ab

Bbm7: Bb Ab, Db F Db

Eb7: Eb Bb, Db G

Ab7: Ab Bb, C G

Db7: Db Ab, C F

G7: G F, B F

Cmaj7: C G, B D E

C-7: C Bb, D Eb

F-7: F Eb, Ab C Ab

Bb7: Bb F, Ab D

Ebmaj7: Eb G, Bb D

Abmaj7: Ab G, C

D7: D F#, C

Gmaj7: G F#, A B


Edited by saiman (02/13/11 01:00 PM)

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#1619019 - 02/13/11 01:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Sounds good, saiman! thumb
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#1619123 - 02/13/11 04:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


Chromatic means that I don't have to use an adjacent note in the scale but can use a note a half step away even if not in the scale? Is this correct?


Correct. Chromatics can always be used on the offbeat and it's excellent for syncing up the chord tones. It's referred to as a "passing tone" when connecting two scale tones.


I will be looking at this closely. Sounds like it makes it easier to do longer quaver runs. Also helping join a sequence of chords.

As always thanks Jazzwee
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#1619129 - 02/13/11 04:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: saiman
I also tried to apply two handed voicings plus melody to ATTYA.

This is what I came up with for the A section. What do you guys think:

Fm7: F Eb, Ab C Ab

Bbm7: Bb Ab, Db F Db


I need to sit down and work these out as well Siaman.
Great to have them here for easy reference though. Me an chords still have a long way to go in our friendship. It is a work soon to be in progress.

Talk Talk
SwingC
_________________________
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#1619131 - 02/13/11 04:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
hi everyone, here is me trying to target thirds and then play a series of eight notes.

Would really appreciate it if you could tell me whether I am on the right track.

Thank you to everyone here especially jazzwee for your encouragement and inspiration

http://www.box.net/shared/nqrbt5dguy


Well done Saiman. Now let me see if I can improve the way you phrase this. Notice how you start everything on 1+? Let's break the pattern here so it will give you ideas.

This is not one of the numbered exercises but I'm just responding to what you played.

Try it now with occasionally putting chord tone quarter note played at beat 1. Then continue with what you're doing here. It should sound more melodic.

BTW at this tempo, which is fast, straighten those eighths some more and focus on offbeat accents. That'll give it more swing. Right now the emphasis is definitely on the downbeat. We've got to break that habit.
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#1619139 - 02/13/11 04:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Siaman

I like the way you Do your left hand chords in the empty spaces. I must bring my two hands together as well.

Thanks for posting.
SC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1619452 - 02/14/11 12:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
hi jazzwee. thank you for listening to the example.

So when you say start with a chord tone quarter on 1, where do I place the approach note to the third. I am guessing it should be on the 2+ seeing that you wont be able to place it on the 1+?

So for the C-7 for example I would play G as a quarter note on 1 and then a series of eight notes starting from 2+ -> D (approach note) Eb F G

I have tried to give it a swing feel. Do you think you can elabortate a bit on where I go wrong to that I can break the habbit? thank you so much

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#1619456 - 02/14/11 12:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
hi jazzwee. thank you for listening to the example.

So when you say start with a chord tone quarter on 1, where do I place the approach note to the third. I am guessing it should be on the 2+ seeing that you wont be able to place it on the 1+?

So for the C-7 for example I would play G as a quarter note on 1 and then a series of eight notes starting from 2+ -> D (approach note) Eb F G

I have tried to give it a swing feel. Do you think you can elabortate a bit on where I go wrong to that I can break the habbit? thank you so much


Let's think that through. Try playing the chord tone as a dotted quarter. That should form a continous phrase through 2+. I just want you to hear what happens when you do this. Or you can start the quarter note at 1+. I want you to intersperse long notes in there.

The swing will solve itself when you emphasize the offbeat. A LOT. At this stage, REALLY ACCENT IT. And soften the downbeat. When I listened to the recording, I heard strong downbeats.
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#1619458 - 02/14/11 12:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
ok great. Will do just that. Did you manage to have look at my ATTYA chords?

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#1619466 - 02/14/11 01:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
ok great. Will do just that. Did you manage to have look at my ATTYA chords?



Yes I did -- 1/7 3/1/3

Try the ones on this thread. I learned it from my teacher. Much jazzier sound.

1/5/9 3/7/3

Yours works too and I also do that. Depends on the moment and the effect.

But excellent thought process.
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#1619470 - 02/14/11 01:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
thanks Wee, a lot of times I also use the concept of two fifth's if the melody note is a low third

What I am realizing though is that it sounds quite boring to just play two handed chords and play the melody. Without a drummer or bass player its almost as if you feel the need to do more with your left hand to create a rhythm. Wondering if there is like an intermediate step between just holding chords and walking bass


Edited by saiman (02/14/11 01:16 AM)

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#1619477 - 02/14/11 01:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: saiman
thanks Wee, a lot of times I also use the concept of two fifth's if the melody note is a low third

What I am realizing though is that it sounds quite boring to just play two handed chords and play the melody. Without a drummer or bass player its almost as if you feel the need to do more with your left hand to create a rhythm. Wondering if there is like an intermediate step between just holding chords and walking bass


Yes there are several methods. Certainly playing just a LH shell of 1/7 or 1/5 or 1/3 or 1/10 is good.

Then the other is a modern stride of Root and then rootless on 2+. Then other times you skip the root. So it's stride-like but only suggesting the root every couple of chords or so.

I do this a lot.

I actually never use walking bass. It's a very specific style.

There are simplified walking bass styles too made up of just 2 half notes. And this also sounds better when you play them as a pickup (4+). Gives a swing two-feel.

Some of this is discussed up top. Though there may not be examples.
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#1619550 - 02/14/11 06:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Hi folks

Could someone put up a link to a YouTube stride example.
Alternating Root rootless

Swing Cbbage
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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
HELP! Is this strain because of my technique?
by T.M.E.
6 minutes 21 seconds ago
Is it my technique that's causing this?
by T.M.E.
43 minutes 18 seconds ago
Best brand of upright piano 48" or larger?
by WG40
Today at 10:22 PM
Kawai MP11 vs. Kawai VPC-1 Action / Key Length
by jp2011
Today at 10:00 PM
Canadian pricing for Kawai MP11?
by GWILLY
Today at 09:52 PM
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