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#1623065 - 02/18/11 03:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
guys there are actually so many versions of strutting w/o some bbq on youtube. which one did you use to transcribe?

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#1623100 - 02/18/11 04:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
got mine from the album with the same title.

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#1623124 - 02/18/11 05:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Scotland
Me too. Mine turned out to be on my mp3 player already.
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#1623129 - 02/18/11 05:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: saiman]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: saiman
Hi TLT, welcome to joy of improv. So good to have another recruit. Also joing the discussion on the Joy thread. Maybe one day it will be as big as this one


Hi saiman, I didn't know about that thread. I haven't been on the non-classical thread for a long time.
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#1623139 - 02/18/11 05:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Tlt ,

That was awesome. Sounds like you really got it. This one isn't about speed at all, so feel free to take it slow. In fact, the slower you get, the tougher it is.

Really entertaining, I can't wait for the next one.
Which one will it be?

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#1623159 - 02/18/11 06:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
Tlt ,

That was awesome. Sounds like you really got it. This one isn't about speed at all, so feel free to take it slow. In fact, the slower you get, the tougher it is.

Really entertaining, I can't wait for the next one.
Which one will it be?


Hi Knotty, maybe I should try it slower then? I just put the metronome to the same speed as my recording. As for next, I've had some Lester Young suggested to me. I've got 5 hours on the train ahead of me tomorrow, so I might make a start then.

It really is an amazing thing, because now I know where I am putting each and every note in that solo. When I started I couldn't hear anything. There was no sense. But I had to listen to it a lot for that to happen.
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#1623165 - 02/18/11 06:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Yes, it somethin' else, isn't it?

You can do one or more Louis if you got it.
Lester Young, you definitely want to spend some time on. Not all of Lester Young (Prez) is top notch, though. He had some hard days. So pick carefully ...

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#1623236 - 02/18/11 08:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
Hey 10
I thought your Struttin' was awesome too. You are really getting into this singing thing.
btw is there any instrument you DON"T play ?!

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#1623459 - 02/19/11 07:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Hi folks

It's taking time to progress. I have a question though relating to the next stage I am moving on to now adding in chord tones.
Jazzwee said back page 55.
Quote:
Be aware of the fingering in arpeggios. They are just all seventh chords so standard fingering applies which means usually no thumbs on black notes when arpeggiating. (many reasons to have thumbs on black notes but not when arpeggiating).


I have 4 chord tones per octave. 1, 3, 5, 7.
When I move up an octave do I repeat 1357 or do I add in 9, 11, 13

Is there rules around fingering for arps. What finger where?
I read the above post just now and it made me think there is some rules to follow to make fast playing possible?

Here is latest recording. Focus on quavers into third off beat emphasis, legato, 3rd / chord tone left ringing. some repeat note and some chord arp.

http://www.box.net/shared/4qrohptgiv

http://www.box.net/shared/nabczgup7p

I think I tried one maybe two arp/chord tones in second one.

Sory about background noise. have 4 pixies

SC





Edited by SwingCabbage (02/19/11 12:08 PM)
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#1623647 - 02/19/11 12:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Great work SC. Second one was cleaner the first.

Issues on the first one where (a) not being in the groove, (b) there were times when you lost the offbeat emphasis so the downbeat came out more and those times also made it lose legato.

Less occurrence on #2

I'm just impressed with your progress here. As individual phrases they are certainly harmonically appropriate at all times. After a while, these patterns will stand out in your ear and you will be able repeat portions of this when needed.


NEXT STEP

Taking you off track for a moment, let's break your approach a little and you will hear more phrasing possibilities. Add these two elements. Think about how you are going add the elements while maintaining the rest the same.

(a) Start with a chord tone on the downbeat and make it a long note, sometimes quarter somethings half. This also gives you time to think about what to do next.

(b) Double some notes. How about starting the line with two quarter notes (same chord tone) on the downbeat?

Don't forget - quarters are played short (like a dotted eighth). Half notes you can let ring.

Don't accent the downbeats here.

(c) Learn to put space in different parts of the beat, not just around beat 3 to 4+. You are not obligated to play on the first part of the beat or anywhere. Now you already have space here but the space should occur naturally like breathing. Not just tied to a chord progression. For example, when you let something ring, it's a good time to not play anything after.

All this requires some thinking as it shakes away the mechanics of what you just did (3rds, neighbor tones, etc.) But it makes you think of the big melodic feature.

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#1623781 - 02/19/11 05:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Excellent feedback. Thanks Jazzwee.

I'll add in the extra parts next.

I'm not there on the arp yet.
When I play a Cmaj7 arp and I play quavers in a row GEGB for example. And I want to keep moving melodically higher do i continue with C E G (1,3,5 ect) or do I move to DFA 9,11,13.
Or should I just take a chill pill on the arp and refocus.

Thanks for your focus. Will work away.

Swing Cabbage
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#1623900 - 02/19/11 08:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage
Excellent feedback. Thanks Jazzwee.

I'll add in the extra parts next.

I'm not there on the arp yet.
When I play a Cmaj7 arp and I play quavers in a row GEGB for example. And I want to keep moving melodically higher do i continue with C E G (1,3,5 ect) or do I move to DFA 9,11,13.
Or should I just take a chill pill on the arp and refocus.

Thanks for your focus. Will work away.

Swing Cabbage



There's no rule SC. It's all about Melody. This is where Knotty's idea of listening to simple jazz helps if you have difficulty with that.

I don't, so I skipped all that.

The main lesson that I'm passing (aside from the original ideas of chord tones, neighbors, etc., is that it really is about phrasing. When you hear combinations of note sizes and space, you then open up beyond just eighth notes.

There's a lot of players that play only eighths, but to me the ones who make musical statements really are very good at mixing it up, even at fast tempos.
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#1624056 - 02/20/11 03:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hey 10
I thought your Struttin' was awesome too. You are really getting into this singing thing.
btw is there any instrument you DON"T play ?!


Thanks custard. smile Yes there are a few instruments I don't play. Mostly I have a big list of instruments I want to learn. Cornet was a big part of my high school time and I learned a lot from that, and had a lot of fun, that I could never have had on piano alone. It bothers me now that I can't play it.
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#1624059 - 02/20/11 04:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland


Swing, your progress here is stellar! And, as a veteran, may I say it is humbling?

I just have one question: are you doing other things piano-wise? Anything from sheet music? Anything with your LH? Some chords perhaps? Other scales?

You are on a roll and I can see it would be very tempting to just run with it. Ultimately, you will find it quite limiting if this is all you can do. Perhaps other things are happening too - so this is just a friendly question. smile

Bless the pixies!
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#1624099 - 02/20/11 07:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

I just have one question: are you doing other things piano-wise? Anything from sheet music? Anything with your LH? Some chords perhaps? Other scales?


I am doing 4 scales up and down and round about within the octave. Also moved in to the B LH comping 1,3,7 1,5,7. I have also started to learn piano with my eldest daughter. This should force me to read staves.
I also practice all 12 major scales on mandolin.
I am reading alot about music theory just to understand this thread. It's sinkink in slowly. On page 56 of this thread which is a large tome.

Becides all this I have a job, 4 pixies aged 11,9,7,5 (not a bill evens arp)
And I train for triathlons. I have a half ironman in Gallway beginning of September.

My house is like a train station so picture me practising in the station lobby. I'm getting between 15 and 30min in each day. Cut TV down to do so. I listen on bike and run to jazz. Lately Canonball Aderly and his album that has AL in it. I am trying to listen closely. Will add in one of the Louis 5 or 7ss soon.

I'm mainly just sickin to Jazzwees directions. They are really clear and for me make sense. Daughter doing academy of music grade 3.

Thanks for your question TLT. What would you Add for ballance?

SwingCabbage
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1624107 - 02/20/11 07:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Sc,

Great stuff. I listen to your first one.
Listen back and see the difference between your line a 0:05 and your line at 0:47
There's a complete difference in feel. Your line at 005 flows nice. Your line at :47 gets that bouncy broken up feel.
If you can take the line at 005 and stick to this feel, and little by little, make it a bit longer, you'll be making great solos.

++

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#1624134 - 02/20/11 08:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: knotty
Sc,

Great stuff. I listen to your first one.
Listen back and see the difference between your line a 0:05 and your line at 0:47
There's a complete difference in feel. Your line at 005 flows nice. Your line at :47 gets that bouncy broken up feel.
If you can take the line at 005 and stick to this feel, and little by little, make it a bit longer, you'll be making great solos.

++

Great feedback knotty. Very specific. Excellent socks.
I can hear the difference clearly.
Thanks
SwingCabbage
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1624305 - 02/20/11 12:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


Thanks for your question TLT. What would you Add for ballance?




For balance? Add to all that?

Well, I suppose you could hold up the cup and the milk and the cake, and hold up the books and the fish on a rake, and hold the toy ship and a little toy man, and with your tail, you could hold a red fan, you could fan with the fan while you hop on the ball...

(here's hoping your pixies have the same bed-time reading as mine, or you'll think I've flipped...) wink
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#1624315 - 02/20/11 12:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
I know what to add smile

Chopin Em Prelude for left hand chords, Chopin Etude 10/1 for arpeggios, and 10/2 for chromatics. Maybe Bach inventions for hand independence?

Donna Lee and Confirmation for swing practice and phrasing?

laugh

No sleeping allowed of course.
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#1624319 - 02/20/11 12:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Ahhh - and here was me thinking *I* was evil...
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#1624473 - 02/20/11 03:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I know what to add smile

Chopin Em Prelude for left hand chords, Chopin Etude 10/1 for arpeggios, and 10/2 for chromatics. Maybe Bach inventions for hand independence?


These are doable slower. I even get them as described above. I was trying to look at the fingers on YouTube. VFast. Especially for 10/1 and 10/2. The RH is a fast 100 meter running Crab / hovercraft. Nearly impossible to se what fingers are going underneath or over others.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Donna Lee and Confirmation


I can't even hear these swing. Fast fast stuff. I saw Donna Lee being mentioned by SwingBarb or Rossa way the way back alright.
I'll add them to my listening.

Only five things Jazzwee?

Enjoyed youtubing these. Gonna stick with the knitting. Might give Chopan a slow go.

When I grow up.

Tanks again Jazzwee
SC
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#1624485 - 02/20/11 03:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


Thanks for your question TLT. What would you Add for ballance?




For balance? Add to all that?

Well, I suppose you could hold up the cup and the milk and the cake, and hold up the books and the fish on a rake, and hold the toy ship and a little toy man, and with your tail, you could hold a red fan, you could fan with the fan while you hop on the ball...

(here's hoping your pixies have the same bed-time reading as mine, or you'll think I've flipped...) wink



The rake's broke unfortunately.

Similar reading alright.

Generally I get them to read Proust and Joyce with a little Poe lashed in for good measure.
Gets them to sleep. Lol

Watched the Chopan stuff on YouTube with youngest. Cracked me up with an impression of pianists. steady LH and blured RH

Must bed.
Talk talk

SC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1624489 - 02/20/11 03:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
Add a solid dose of Keith Jarretts solo concerts for good measure and balance. The Paris concert is my thing at the moment. Some awesome improvisation.
cubop

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#1624628 - 02/20/11 06:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SC, when I get 10/1 and 10/2 done I'll let you know smile Maybe you'll get ahead of me at the rate you're going smile
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#1624938 - 02/21/11 05:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Only jokin Jazzwee.
I'm keepin it simple stupid
SC
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1625044 - 02/21/11 10:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
On the tram reading page 60 of this thread.

Coincidence
or
Consistence?


Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Donna Lee - Swing Practice the Charlie Parker Way

For those who are ready for a challenge...

I made an earlier recommendation to play the head of "Donna Lee". If one can find the lead sheet to this (Real Book), I'd advise this as a long term project. This is really, initially quite a project in learning where to place accents. You will see that the rule on accenting an offbeat has to be strictly followed because if you accent the wrong spot, the head will not sound correct. Somewhere in this thread, I believe I did a recording of this, two years ago. I can re-record it if anyone else wants to start this. Barb was one of those that learned this tune.

What I mean by placing accents is that some of the lines in this melody start on an offbeat (+) or downbeat (quarter note), and thus sometimes some lines start with an accent or without. For a beginner it is daunting. Now it is automatic and I don't give it a second thought. I started with this after playing all the simpler blues melodies. This melody is finger mangler. It can cause tendonitis/sprain without good technique if one does not think of correct fingering and relaxation. So this is a challenge.

Here's Volvoxburger playing it on youtube at a very reasonable speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPW9_BsLCQ

You will find many versions of this with blazingly fast playing (200bpm and above). But the speed is not important here. It's replicating the phrasing of the melody. The Youtube people show off with this and it's really bad if played with bad time.

Second stage of this piece is to solo over the changes. Actually, soloing over this isn't that complicated. No harder than AL for sure. I would actually rank this as an intermediate piece but it just becomes advanced when people want to shoot for 300bpm.

I think it is also good advice to learn to sing/scat this (slowly obviously) although I have to admit I have never done that.

And if you're a glutton for punishment, the other Charlie Parker tune is "Confirmation". Very similar. Aside from learning how to swing, there is a lot to learn here too related to improvisation as the lines played are typical even in soloing.



These are now on my listening radar for learning when I am ready.
Again I fully understand why you are saying About the value of doing these tunes Jazzwee. Loud and clear.
SC
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#1625160 - 02/21/11 12:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Consistency SC.

I learned the head of Donna Lee at 1 year in. But it's still hard to this day.

Good or bad I don't change my tune. It's because the information here comes from a really good teacher and a world-class player. Everybody can be taught differently and it can work too. But I only talk about what I have personal experience with. So, expect the consistency unless I've learned something new.

But typically what's new is at the advanced level and it doesn't seem to change the basic story for me.

It doesn't invalidate other approaches but it works for me and that's all I know. And there's more to what you read here. There's a lot to learn and it can only be learned by feedback--reacting to what you play. So only those that post music will get that benefit.
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#1627793 - 02/25/11 05:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Hi Folks

How do I do a search in just this thread. Say I want to search for 'fingering' or 'F#m9b5' or 'inner voicings'and I would like all posts with this word in it.
How can I do this. I can't work it out.
I have been practicing but have spread my practice so improvement is slower.

Chords and comping.
I am now working on LH 1/5/7 and trying 3 + melody / 3 + improv(variations) and also starting 3 + 2 and 2 + 2. These help me to visualise the important chord tones. This is realy good from an imporvisation point ov fiew. You can see the patterns and how they change and hence where your downbeat focus should be.

Listning:
I have also been listning to alot more of the suggested listning outside Autumn leaves. I looped Freddy Freloader for 8 listens to the other day. Moved it from background music to active listning music.

Scales:
I have a chalange with my daughter that we both learn all 12 major keys. I will do two octaves to a metronome and she is allowed one octave no metronome. Person who does it best wins a fiver. Or in my case I gets me fiver back.
I have been looking at youtube instruction videos on how to stop your fingers getting in a knot. Different for scales and chromatic. All good and helps things along.

Reading:
On page 74 of this thread. Also reading relevant parts to my practice. I hope I can keep the inthuasiam up.

Arpegios:
I'm waiting until I am happy with the Chords first before going back to arpegiating them. Easier I hope. I think that I also need ot look to youtube and watch people arpegiating and see where and how they do their fingers. This is another limiter for me as well as not knowing all the notes.

I will be away from the world for next 10 days. I am going to try and get something up tonight but I dont see there being any major advances. We'll see.

It would be excelent to find out how to search just this thread.

SwingCabáiste
_________________________
What exactly do you mean by 'swing'.

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#1627826 - 02/25/11 07:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Hi folks

I have a question when Comping in LH and solo in RH

Are these statements correct?

The LH should be as close to middle C as possible?

melody / improv solo should be the highest sounding note.?

The octave immediatly to the left of middle C is not a muddy octave but the further left you go the muddier an inner voice in the 1/7 would be when you add a 3rd or 5th?

Omit melody note from cord if they are being played at the same time. Especially if it is 3rd or 7th?

thanks in advance for your responses.

SC
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#1628890 - 02/26/11 11:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage

The LH should be as close to middle C as possible?


Depends on what you're comping.

Below middle C you need to spread out the voicings (intervals of a 5th or more).

Clustered voicings like Rootless sound best near middle C.

There's no one answer here as it depends on effect. But it is true that in a combo, most people would comp with a LH rootless while soloing and that would be close to middle C.

Bud Powell would comp with 1/7 so that would be lower.


Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


melody / improv solo should be the highest sounding note.?



Basic rule but really, it's whatever melody you want to come out. Brad Mehldau will exchange between LH and RH on this so obviously it is not a hard and fast rule.

But in general, with normal playing, the solo line is generally the uppermost notes. What it really suggests is that you need to learn to tone down the LH chords or other notes as needed for effect.


Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage


Omit melody note from cord if they are being played at the same time. Especially if it is 3rd or 7th?




Correct. Don't waste fingers on doubles.
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