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#1623746 - 02/19/11 03:56 PM yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these?
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
im in the market for a digital piano. I like to play classical jazz and popular music. These cvp pianos look really nice. was just wondering what would influence me to buy a 509 over a 503?
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#1623761 - 02/19/11 04:45 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
This depends on your needs.
The 509 has an incredible polyphony of 2x128. You can play multitrack orchestral arrangements with that.
Look here: www.cvpug.com You get the most of information there if you are specifically interested in a Yamaha CVP.
Look there under "CVP creations" for the user "dbjork". He posts a lot of orchestral examples.

Also the 509 has much more effects and a richer piano sound and a better speaker system. But that comes at a price, and if you dont use most fatures, a 505 or 405 would do it also.

Also CVP 409 and sometimes 309 are available from dealers at a very much reduced price with full warranty. This might be an alternative.

Also dont forget, for the price of a 509 you can possibly get a Korg Kronos + stand + PA System grin


Edited by hpeterh (02/19/11 05:15 PM)
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#1623768 - 02/19/11 05:00 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3835
Loc: North Carolina
CVP-503 ........ vs. ... CVP-509
GH3 ............ vs. ... NW keyboard
128 ............ vs. ... 128+128 polyphony
4-level ........ vs. ... 5-level sampling
398 voices ..... vs. ... 811 voices
4 speakers ..... vs. ... 8 speakers
40 W amps x 2 .. vs. ... 35+20+20+20 W amps x 2
no tri-amp ..... vs. ... tri-amp
no iAFC ........ vs. ... iAFC


The CVP-509 has one hell of a sound system. That would be the biggest difference. Have you tried it?

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#1623874 - 02/19/11 07:38 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
is the 501 a big step down from 503? maybe I should stop asking questions and just try them out lol.

thanks guys. Im not that big into piano playing. Just here and there. I am kind of a tech nut though some added features I might get into. this kronos you mentioned pretty worthy to yamaha? I know yamaha your just paying for a name partly just like buying nike shoes or whatever. Im open to other suggestions as well. let me take a look at this kronos.\

(and no I havent tried it yet)


Edited by craig1999871 (02/20/11 08:45 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1625843 - 02/22/11 10:17 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
someone has also recommended the kawai mp10. how does this keyboard stack up against the cvps as far as touch and sound? I dont really need all the bells and whistles of the cvp's. would be nice though:)


Edited by craig1999871 (02/22/11 10:18 AM)
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play that one again sam

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#1626810 - 02/23/11 03:38 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Now if you should want those bells and whistles nevertheless, watch this:


Its a Korg PA588 and comes at a price lower than all others that where mentioned here, with stand, but only one (continuous) pedal.

It is very hard to find good demos on Youtube, but if interest, watch this Guys channel, he plays it masterfully.
To avoid misunderstanding: The accompaniement is not automatic nor prefabricated. This is played in several takes and multitrack recorded in MIDI on the PA588 as a song and saved to SD card. The final performance is also recorded in midi and /after playing/ then recorded in audio on the PC and synchronized with the video. Because final audio recording is done offline, and can be repeated if needed, there are no problems to adjust the audio levels optimally.
So it is of course much more work and skill behind this as it seems at first sight.
Polyphony of this keyboard is only 80, but oviously that does the job. However the PA588 has the ability unlike clavinovas to assign internal sounds to external MIDI sound generators and so the polyphony and sound quality can be increased if desired.
While the high end Clavionovas might have somewhat better sounds, this instrument is superior to any Clavinova or even to the Tyros when it comes to sequencing, style creating and integrating external sound sources; it is built for this purpose.

Forget the Kronos, this is above 4000,- and if its only used to play samples at home, this is cheaper to do with a computer. Kronos is a professional workstation for professional musicians and for those it might pay off.
PA588 and Kronos however share the same Keyboard action (Korg RH3), but the PA588 has no aftertouch feature.

There is a lot of talking here about actions.
That confuses beginners.
Now, if you are a newcomer I would recommend this: Go into a store that has 50 old and new acoustic pianos of all sizes for sale and try them all. Then choose this, that you like most, and see if you can find any digital that comes close ;-) Acoustics are so different, much more than digitals.

I did this on monday, and my favorite was a grand piano with rather light action, from weight, the Korg was closer to this than the Yamahas,Kawais and Rolands.....

(Honestly, I think it where less than 50 which I tried, but it where too much to count) ;-)

Best,

Peter



Edited by hpeterh (02/24/11 02:44 AM)
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#1626900 - 02/23/11 05:43 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: hpeterh]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
wow really awesome sounds on that pa588! so should I forget kawai mp10 and np88 after watching this? Ive already taken cvp series off my list.
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1626909 - 02/23/11 05:51 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
No, dont forget /anything/. But without prejudice, test anything you get under your fingers, famous and infamous, cheap and expensive.
But you must decide yourself.

It also depends on your wishes. The Korg PA588 is for sure not the right action for a player that definitely wants to play advanced classical style and that wants to have some fingertraining. But I think, there is only a minority that want this. Only 0.001% of all pianoplayers become concertpianists, finally.

Best,

Peter
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#1626992 - 02/23/11 08:21 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
wow really awesome sounds on that pa588! so should I forget kawai mp10 and np88 after watching this? Ive already taken cvp series off my list.


That you would even concider both a pa588 and Yamaha CVP within the span of a few days tells me you don't know yet what your goals are. It's like deciding between buying Lexus or a HarleyDavidson.

Some keyboards are well suited to music production and sequencing and multi-tracking. Others are designed to simulated and acoustic piano. Some like the CVP have powerfull built-in speakers others have no speakers at all.

It helps to actually try and write on paper, in order, the most importent things you want in the instrument and then draw a line between the must-have and nice to have.

And you have to try them all, hands on. Plan on spending hours i the stores and bring headphones and your own sheet music

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#1627121 - 02/24/11 12:18 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
dewar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 139
ya those cvp's are cool looking. I mean the screen for one. All those sounds, all those beats, all those everything.

But this is what you have to sit there and ask yourself. A 501 you can get for about 3 grand. Id say 3200 but lets say 3k.

Now for around 2700 you can get a clp 340. 1 extra lv of sound sampling, big ol speakers. For even the same price you could kick it up and go for a higher model.

And that's the 501, the 503 is gonna be a bit more to be on par and better.

So are you the kind of guy that wants 200 beats going while your playing a piano? Do you want those extra 100 or so tones like bells, and flutes, and moccorina's? Or would you be content with your piano sounding like a 6 piano's and adding in about 12 more extra tunes?

If your looking for a piano then get a piano. If your lookn to mix and match and dj it up, then get a cvp. Personally I never use all those beats and whatnot playing the piano no matter what tone I have going. I never even use half the tones on my keyboard.

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#1627171 - 02/24/11 04:12 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
wow really awesome sounds on that pa588! so should I forget kawai mp10 and np88 after watching this? Ive already taken cvp series off my list.


Now there is a major disadvantage:
All is electronics, metal and plastic.
You get no wood. As we all know, real natural wood is an incredible value nowadays, especially if it comes in the form of splywood or pressboard and painted with colorized transparent laquer or laminated. this is a major drawback.

If you want this big sound then you have to connect a stereo with really good (wooden) speakers ;-)
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#1627194 - 02/24/11 06:43 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: hpeterh]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
I don't understand that last post.
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play that one again sam

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#1627252 - 02/24/11 08:56 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Now that was meant as irony.
Nobody understands it who doesnt know the technical interior of the pianos.

Generally the CVP pianos are equivalent to the Yamaha Tyros and to the PSR series keyboards. The only differences are the wooden cabinet, the piano voices.

The high end CVPs have more polyphony but other expensive features (sampler capability) are removed and other professional features intentionally crippled.

Yamahas Top keyboard Tyros 3 costs 3000 Euros and the top CVP509 in the simplest rosewood finish costs 6000.
So the extra 3000 are for the keyboard and for the wood (pressboard) and the amplifier and speakers.

;-)


Edited by hpeterh (02/24/11 09:00 AM)
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#1627410 - 02/24/11 01:09 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: hpeterh]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
ah ok lol.
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1627413 - 02/24/11 01:15 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: ChrisA]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
wow really awesome sounds on that pa588! so should I forget kawai mp10 and np88 after watching this? Ive already taken cvp series off my list.


That you would even concider both a pa588 and Yamaha CVP within the span of a few days tells me you don't know yet what your goals are. It's like deciding between buying Lexus or a HarleyDavidson.

Some keyboards are well suited to music production and sequencing and multi-tracking. Others are designed to simulated and acoustic piano. Some like the CVP have powerfull built-in speakers others have no speakers at all.

It helps to actually try and write on paper, in order, the most importent things you want in the instrument and then draw a line between the must-have and nice to have.

And you have to try them all, hands on. Plan on spending hours i the stores and bring headphones and your own sheet music


my goal is to feel out the whole digital piano world. I want to know all my options. It seems the more Im finding out the harder it is to decide.

my priorities are to have the best possible acoustic grand sound.

and to have the best possible touch feel to that of a real piano.

everything else is up in the air. I haven't tested out any of the pianos. I would have to drive long distances to get to try them and even then wouldn't be side by side testing as dealers don't carry every brand.

so with my priorities in mind. what do you think I should get?

Im thinking now I might just have to get the piano with best touch/feel and run midi for the best sound I can find.
_________________________
play that one again sam

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#1627431 - 02/24/11 01:38 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
So I understand piano sound and touch are your main priorities.
It is a highly subjective decision which touch is the best. There is no such thing.
So test Kawai,Yamaha and Roland. These are commonly accepted for their authencity. Some prefer this, others prefer this. But with none of these you do a substantial mistake.
If possible test also the lesser acknowledged brands like Casio or Korg.
Even if you definitely dont want to buy a particular keyboard, if you have the opportunity, test it, so you learn about the differences.

Watch youtube and search for users that play stuff that you would want to play. See what they use. You can even ask them about their opinion and recommendation.

I would recommend not to spent too much money in the beginnig. You might change your mind later.
Keep the risk low.

On youtube you also find users that deliver great performances on Casio or other cheaper brands.
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#1627548 - 02/24/11 05:22 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
boxijie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 126
Loc: Vancouver
Try an Avant grand by Yamaha. It is a digital piano with an actual real grand piano action.

I recently bought a CVP 509 and am very glad I did. I am actually using all the bells and whistles. Here's what I like about it:

- no tuning
- wooden keys makes it feel pretty close to piano action
- headphones. I can practise at night when the kids are in bed.
- Accompanyment - I use it to play jazz tunes and improvise
- Karaoke
- Play along feature is great for the kids
- Plays mp3's through input

Most of these advantages are found in any digital piano though.

I was particularly fond of the action on the 509.

What I didn't like is that Yamaha keeps some things out of the lesser models that do not cost them anything to put in, like fewer sounds and fewer styles etc.

I have no regrets about the 509, however, mainly because of the wooden key action.

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#1627558 - 02/24/11 05:39 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
well an advant grand is out of the question. and some have said even this feel was just okay.

guess I need to get off my butt and go test.

thanks guys for your help.
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play that one again sam

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#1628350 - 02/26/11 05:58 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 612
Originally Posted By: craig1999871


my priorities are to have the best possible acoustic grand sound.

and to have the best possible touch feel to that of a real piano.

everything else is up in the air. ...

Im thinking now I might just have to get the piano with best touch/feel and run midi for the best sound I can find.

Definitely. Get a keyboard with the touch and feel you like (I really like my CVP-409GP but it's relatively expensive) and then use it as a Midi keyboard for Ivory II, Garritan Steinway, (my two favorites) or other virtual piano software. You will get much better piano sound, more versatile piano options, and be able to upgrade over time much more inexpensively. (A higher-end digital piano like the CVP-409GP will also provide an excellent sound system, but you will need separate speakers and amplifiers with lessor keyboards.)
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Macy

CVP-409GP, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere

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#1628756 - 02/26/11 06:38 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: Macy]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
thanks macy. I think thats a good idea getting the best feel you like. Unless I needed alot of tools for composing soundtracks(which I dont) I think a pretty basic feature set would be fine.

that being said Im trying to settle on a DP. Do most agree the kawai Mp10 has the closest feel of DP's to that of an acoustic? (I wonder if the mp10's with bad keybeds are still circulating?)

Another question(if I did buy the mp10) I notice it has 3 layers of piano sounds. Im guessing that is dynamic as in p f ff. Would I be able to get a vst that does 4 or 5 when available? or is it a sensor thing that is on the piano that only looks for 3 velocity layers.



Edited by craig1999871 (02/26/11 06:42 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1628761 - 02/26/11 06:47 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9346
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
Another question(if I did buy the mp10) I notice it has 3 layers of piano sounds.


May I ask where you read/saw this?

The MP10 features three acoustic piano categories, with three sounds in each - this is not the same as '3 layers' etc.

Kind regards,
James
x
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1628804 - 02/26/11 08:16 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: Kawai James]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
i misread then. so how many layers are there? what does three sounds in each mean then?

how many different velocities does the mp10 capture?


Edited by craig1999871 (02/26/11 08:18 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1628809 - 02/26/11 08:26 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9346
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: craig1999871
so how many layers are there?


I'm afraid I am not able to comment on this point.

Originally Posted By: craig1999871
what does three sounds in each mean then?


There are three acoustic piano categories: Concert, Pop, and Jazz, with three sound variations in each category (a total of 9 acoustic piano sounds).

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1629002 - 02/27/11 04:23 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: Kawai James]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Here is presentation of Kawai MP10 and MP6.
It is in german and the Kawai official is interviewed and asked about the layers.
He answers, there are up to 7 Layers in the MP10 ;-)



@Craig:

This doesnt mean, it will only react to 7 steps of velocity. This is a common misunderstanding. Quality pianos all react to 127 steps in loudness and vary their timbre according to velocity. This means that the original sound source was captured at least in 7 layers and that the sounds where calculated from this recordings.

I think, comparable in price and features to the MP6 is the Yamaha CP33. This has only 3 layers. Test and compare those, if you can.

Both have the advantage, they have a full MIDI soundset, so if automatic accompaniement should be wanted, this can be done with computer software. The MP6 also has a rythm section so far I know.

Both have the disadvantage, no speakers. However if you already have a good stereo that you can connect, then this might not be important.

Another hint: To test those, best use your own headphones. The headphones that are given to you in the piano store are often cheap and crappy and give a total distorted sound experience.

Best,

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (02/27/11 05:45 AM)
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#1629106 - 02/27/11 09:59 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: hpeterh]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Here is presentation of Kawai MP10 and MP6. It is in german and the Kawai official is interviewed and asked about the layers. He answers, there are up to 7 Layers in the MP10 ;-)

He let a major cat out of the bag. Now Yamaha, Roland, Kurzweil, Korg, and maybe even lowly Casio, will start layering their sample sets - oh wait...
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#1629183 - 02/27/11 11:54 AM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3835
Loc: North Carolina
So what exactly is meant by "layer"?

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#1629483 - 02/27/11 06:59 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: MacMacMac]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
So what exactly is meant by "layer"?

basically the notes are sampled at different loudness levels from the piano. instead of just raising or lowering the volume on the keyboard speakers. we actually get to hear the string vibrate and give a unique sound when struck harder.


Edited by craig1999871 (02/27/11 07:00 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1629504 - 02/27/11 07:40 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: craig son of berg]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3835
Loc: North Carolina
Ok, I've heard that referred to as "sampling levels". Seems odd to call them "layers".

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#1629530 - 02/27/11 08:17 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: MacMacMac]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Ok, I've heard that referred to as "sampling levels". Seems odd to call them "layers".

layers levels potatoes potawtos

ps im new to the DP world mac


Edited by craig1999871 (02/27/11 08:18 PM)
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play that one again sam

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#1629534 - 02/27/11 08:23 PM Re: yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these? [Re: dewster]
craig son of berg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 158
Loc: WPB, FL, US of A
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
Here is presentation of Kawai MP10 and MP6. It is in german and the Kawai official is interviewed and asked about the layers. He answers, there are up to 7 Layers in the MP10 ;-)

He let a major cat out of the bag. Now Yamaha, Roland, Kurzweil, Korg, and maybe even lowly Casio, will start layering their sample sets - oh wait...
ya well if they get their keyboards nice and right Id hop right on a casio. I know that touch is not always an important factor to all.


Edited by craig1999871 (02/27/11 08:24 PM)
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play that one again sam

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