Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards yamaha cvp 5xx series can anyone shed some light on these?

im in the market for a digital piano. I like to play classical jazz and popular music. These cvp pianos look really nice. was just wondering what would influence me to buy a 509 over a 503?

This depends on your needs.
The 509 has an incredible polyphony of 2x128. You can play multitrack orchestral arrangements with that.
Look here: www.cvpug.com You get the most of information there if you are specifically interested in a Yamaha CVP.
Look there under "CVP creations" for the user "dbjork". He posts a lot of orchestral examples.

Also the 509 has much more effects and a richer piano sound and a better speaker system. But that comes at a price, and if you dont use most fatures, a 505 or 405 would do it also.

Also CVP 409 and sometimes 309 are available from dealers at a very much reduced price with full warranty. This might be an alternative.

Also dont forget, for the price of a 509 you can possibly get a Korg Kronos + stand + PA System

CVP-503 ........ vs. ... CVP-509
GH3 ............ vs. ... NW keyboard
128 ............ vs. ... 128+128 polyphony
4-level ........ vs. ... 5-level sampling
398 voices ..... vs. ... 811 voices
4 speakers ..... vs. ... 8 speakers
40 W amps x 2 .. vs. ... 35+20+20+20 W amps x 2
no tri-amp ..... vs. ... tri-amp
no iAFC ........ vs. ... iAFC

The CVP-509 has one heck of a sound system. That would be the biggest difference. Have you tried it?

is the 501 a big step down from 503? maybe I should stop asking questions and just try them out lol.

thanks guys. Im not that big into piano playing. Just here and there. I am kind of a tech nut though some added features I might get into. this kronos you mentioned pretty worthy to yamaha? I know yamaha your just paying for a name partly just like buying nike shoes or whatever. Im open to other suggestions as well. let me take a look at this kronos.\

(and no I havent tried it yet)

someone has also recommended the kawai mp10. how does this keyboard stack up against the cvps as far as touch and sound? I dont really need all the bells and whistles of the cvp's. would be nice though:)

Now if you should want those bells and whistles nevertheless, watch this:


Its a Korg PA588 and comes at a price lower than all others that where mentioned here, with stand, but only one (continuous) pedal.

It is very hard to find good demos on Youtube, but if interest, watch this Guys channel, he plays it masterfully.
To avoid misunderstanding: The accompaniement is not automatic nor prefabricated. This is played in several takes and multitrack recorded in MIDI on the PA588 as a song and saved to SD card. The final performance is also recorded in midi and /after playing/ then recorded in audio on the PC and synchronized with the video. Because final audio recording is done offline, and can be repeated if needed, there are no problems to adjust the audio levels optimally.
So it is of course much more work and skill behind this as it seems at first sight.
Polyphony of this keyboard is only 80, but oviously that does the job. However the PA588 has the ability unlike clavinovas to assign internal sounds to external MIDI sound generators and so the polyphony and sound quality can be increased if desired.
While the high end Clavionovas might have somewhat better sounds, this instrument is superior to any Clavinova or even to the Tyros when it comes to sequencing, style creating and integrating external sound sources; it is built for this purpose.

Forget the Kronos, this is above 4000,- and if its only used to play samples at home, this is cheaper to do with a computer. Kronos is a professional workstation for professional musicians and for those it might pay off.
PA588 and Kronos however share the same Keyboard action (Korg RH3), but the PA588 has no aftertouch feature.

There is a lot of talking here about actions.
That confuses beginners.
Now, if you are a newcomer I would recommend this: Go into a store that has 50 old and new acoustic pianos of all sizes for sale and try them all. Then choose this, that you like most, and see if you can find any digital that comes close ;-) Acoustics are so different, much more than digitals.

I did this on monday, and my favorite was a grand piano with rather light action, from weight, the Korg was closer to this than the Yamahas,Kawais and Rolands.....

(Honestly, I think it where less than 50 which I tried, but it where too much to count) ;-)

Best,

Peter

wow really awesome sounds on that pa588! so should I forget kawai mp10 and np88 after watching this? Ive already taken cvp series off my list.

No, dont forget /anything/. But without prejudice, test anything you get under your fingers, famous and infamous, cheap and expensive.
But you must decide yourself.

It also depends on your wishes. The Korg PA588 is for sure not the right action for a player that definitely wants to play advanced classical style and that wants to have some fingertraining. But I think, there is only a minority that want this. Only 0.001% of all pianoplayers become concertpianists, finally.

Best,

Peter

That you would even concider both a pa588 and Yamaha CVP within the span of a few days tells me you don't know yet what your goals are. It's like deciding between buying Lexus or a HarleyDavidson.

Some keyboards are well suited to music production and sequencing and multi-tracking. Others are designed to simulated and acoustic piano. Some like the CVP have powerfull built-in speakers others have no speakers at all.

It helps to actually try and write on paper, in order, the most importent things you want in the instrument and then draw a line between the must-have and nice to have.

And you have to try them all, hands on. Plan on spending hours i the stores and bring headphones and your own sheet music

ya those cvp's are cool looking. I mean the screen for one. All those sounds, all those beats, all those everything.

But this is what you have to sit there and ask yourself. A 501 you can get for about 3 grand. Id say 3200 but lets say 3k.

Now for around 2700 you can get a clp 340. 1 extra lv of sound sampling, big ol speakers. For even the same price you could kick it up and go for a higher model.

And that's the 501, the 503 is gonna be a bit more to be on par and better.

So are you the kind of guy that wants 200 beats going while your playing a piano? Do you want those extra 100 or so tones like bells, and flutes, and moccorina's? Or would you be content with your piano sounding like a 6 piano's and adding in about 12 more extra tunes?

If your looking for a piano then get a piano. If your lookn to mix and match and dj it up, then get a cvp. Personally I never use all those beats and whatnot playing the piano no matter what tone I have going. I never even use half the tones on my keyboard.

Now there is a major disadvantage:
All is electronics, metal and plastic.
You get no wood. As we all know, real natural wood is an incredible value nowadays, especially if it comes in the form of splywood or pressboard and painted with colorized transparent laquer or laminated. this is a major drawback.

If you want this big sound then you have to connect a stereo with really good (wooden) speakers ;-)

I don't understand that last post.

Now that was meant as irony.
Nobody understands it who doesnt know the technical interior of the pianos.

Generally the CVP pianos are equivalent to the Yamaha Tyros and to the PSR series keyboards. The only differences are the wooden cabinet, the piano voices.

The high end CVPs have more polyphony but other expensive features (sampler capability) are removed and other professional features intentionally crippled.

Yamahas Top keyboard Tyros 3 costs 3000 Euros and the top CVP509 in the simplest rosewood finish costs 6000.
So the extra 3000 are for the keyboard and for the wood (pressboard) and the amplifier and speakers.

;-)

ah ok lol.

my goal is to feel out the whole digital piano world. I want to know all my options. It seems the more Im finding out the harder it is to decide.

my priorities are to have the best possible acoustic grand sound.

and to have the best possible touch feel to that of a real piano.

everything else is up in the air. I haven't tested out any of the pianos. I would have to drive long distances to get to try them and even then wouldn't be side by side testing as dealers don't carry every brand.

so with my priorities in mind. what do you think I should get?

Im thinking now I might just have to get the piano with best touch/feel and run midi for the best sound I can find.

So I understand piano sound and touch are your main priorities.
It is a highly subjective decision which touch is the best. There is no such thing.
So test Kawai,Yamaha and Roland. These are commonly accepted for their authencity. Some prefer this, others prefer this. But with none of these you do a substantial mistake.
If possible test also the lesser acknowledged brands like Casio or Korg.
Even if you definitely dont want to buy a particular keyboard, if you have the opportunity, test it, so you learn about the differences.

Watch youtube and search for users that play stuff that you would want to play. See what they use. You can even ask them about their opinion and recommendation.

I would recommend not to spent too much money in the beginnig. You might change your mind later.
Keep the risk low.

On youtube you also find users that deliver great performances on Casio or other cheaper brands.

Try an Avant grand by Yamaha. It is a digital piano with an actual real grand piano action.

I recently bought a CVP 509 and am very glad I did. I am actually using all the bells and whistles. Here's what I like about it:

- no tuning
- wooden keys makes it feel pretty close to piano action
- headphones. I can practise at night when the kids are in bed.
- Accompanyment - I use it to play jazz tunes and improvise
- Karaoke
- Play along feature is great for the kids
- Plays mp3's through input

Most of these advantages are found in any digital piano though.

I was particularly fond of the action on the 509.

What I didn't like is that Yamaha keeps some things out of the lesser models that do not cost them anything to put in, like fewer sounds and fewer styles etc.

I have no regrets about the 509, however, mainly because of the wooden key action.

well an advant grand is out of the question. and some have said even this feel was just okay.

guess I need to get off my butt and go test.

thanks guys for your help.

Definitely. Get a keyboard with the touch and feel you like (I really like my CVP-409GP but it's relatively expensive) and then use it as a Midi keyboard for Ivory II, Garritan Steinway, (my two favorites) or other virtual piano software. You will get much better piano sound, more versatile piano options, and be able to upgrade over time much more inexpensively. (A higher-end digital piano like the CVP-409GP will also provide an excellent sound system, but you will need separate speakers and amplifiers with lessor keyboards.)

thanks macy. I think thats a good idea getting the best feel you like. Unless I needed alot of tools for composing soundtracks(which I dont) I think a pretty basic feature set would be fine.

that being said Im trying to settle on a DP. Do most agree the kawai Mp10 has the closest feel of DP's to that of an acoustic? (I wonder if the mp10's with bad keybeds are still circulating?)

Another question(if I did buy the mp10) I notice it has 3 layers of piano sounds. Im guessing that is dynamic as in p f ff. Would I be able to get a vst that does 4 or 5 when available? or is it a sensor thing that is on the piano that only looks for 3 velocity layers.

May I ask where you read/saw this?

The MP10 features three acoustic piano categories, with three sounds in each - this is not the same as '3 layers' etc.

Kind regards,
James
x

i misread then. so how many layers are there? what does three sounds in each mean then?

how many different velocities does the mp10 capture?

I'm afraid I am not able to comment on this point.



There are three acoustic piano categories: Concert, Pop, and Jazz, with three sound variations in each category (a total of 9 acoustic piano sounds).

Kind regards,
James
x

Here is presentation of Kawai MP10 and MP6.
It is in german and the Kawai official is interviewed and asked about the layers.
He answers, there are up to 7 Layers in the MP10 ;-)



@Craig:

This doesnt mean, it will only react to 7 steps of velocity. This is a common misunderstanding. Quality pianos all react to 127 steps in loudness and vary their timbre according to velocity. This means that the original sound source was captured at least in 7 layers and that the sounds where calculated from this recordings.

I think, comparable in price and features to the MP6 is the Yamaha CP33. This has only 3 layers. Test and compare those, if you can.

Both have the advantage, they have a full MIDI soundset, so if automatic accompaniement should be wanted, this can be done with computer software. The MP6 also has a rythm section so far I know.

Both have the disadvantage, no speakers. However if you already have a good stereo that you can connect, then this might not be important.

Another hint: To test those, best use your own headphones. The headphones that are given to you in the piano store are often cheap and crappy and give a total distorted sound experience.

Best,

Peter

He let a major cat out of the bag. Now Yamaha, Roland, Kurzweil, Korg, and maybe even lowly Casio, will start layering their sample sets - oh wait...

So what exactly is meant by "layer"?

basically the notes are sampled at different loudness levels from the piano. instead of just raising or lowering the volume on the keyboard speakers. we actually get to hear the string vibrate and give a unique sound when struck harder.

Ok, I've heard that referred to as "sampling levels". Seems odd to call them "layers".

layers levels potatoes potawtos

ps im new to the DP world mac

ya well if they get their keyboards nice and right Id hop right on a casio. I know that touch is not always an important factor to all.

Toh-may-toh, toh-mah-toh...

James
x

Timbre varies with volume, so the sound is more realistic.

Most DP keyboards will produce all (or most) MIDI velocity levels from 0-127. Some actually don't produce levels much above 105-110, but it's easy to expand the range all the way to 127 in the computer that runs your virtual piano software. The number of actual sample levels captured (recorded) from an acoustic piano varies from as few as 3 in a DP to many more in virtual piano software (Ivory II has 18 captured levels for instance). DPs and virtual pianos will interpolate between the captured levels for the entire range of 0-127 velocity levels. The advantage of capturing more sample levels from the acoustic piano is the ability reproduce the acoustic's wide timbre range (as opposed to only volume changes) as the keys are struck at different velocities.

You said above that "my priorities are to have the best possible acoustic grand sound and to have the best possible touch feel to that of a real piano." IMO, you will never achieve your sound priorities with a DP. That requires many more captured sampling layers than normally found in DP's. It also requires sustain (damper pedal) resonance, sympathetic string resonance, release samples, and half pedaling capabilities that are typically either not included or not done particularly well in DPs.

I would be willing to bet that whatever DP you buy it will not sound nearly as good to you 30 days after you buy it when you've had the time and experience with it to discover it's limitations emulating an acoustic piano. (You will never be perfectly happy with virtual piano software either, but it's a lot less expensive to spend $100-$300 to upgrade, or acquire a selection of virtual piano software for different musical preferences, than buy new DP's). So my bottom line recommendation is to buy a DP keyboard for the touch you like (and be sure you get a proportional damper pedal) and any fun features you might like to fool around with, but pretty much ignore its built in piano sounds. Unless you spend considerable money for a DP, you can also ignore its built-in speakers and amplifiers because they also won't satisfy your stated goal. You'll have to provide a separate sound system if you want to approach the sound of an acoustic piano. Then get some first-class virtual piano software and you should be in pretty good shape to meet your goals.

Just my opinion, but it works for me.

Thanks macy. I know I'm tired of my acoustic piano. Thanks for all your detailed help.

I see that some pianos (Casio) feature "split and layers", while others (Roland) offer "layers, zones, and effects" ... which can be selected/configured.

So it seems that to them (Casio, Roland), layers means something quite different than sampling levels. Exactly what they mean I cannot say.

MacMacMac, I expect 'layers' in this context refers to the ability to combine two or more different sounds (e.g. piano with strings). In the Kawai world this is referred to as 'Dual Mode'.

Cheers,
James
x

In this interview, the interviewer explicitely asked about the samples, and how many "layers". He appeared a little bit to be a layman and did not know the right term ;-)

The Kawai man answered these samples are all totally new and incredibly big and "up to seven layers in the MP10". The other stuff that was talked about is not of interest here, it is commonly known stuff.

Ok, when he played the MP6, the interviewer wondered about the very "fat" sound and asked "is there reverb in?". Kawai man answered " no reverb, thats purely the pedal's effect".

;-)

looks like kawai mp10's are not available until march 18th 2011. anybody hear different date?

craig2999871, may I ask where you heard this information?

Kind regards,
James
x

http://www.kraftmusic.com/catalog/keyboards/88keykeyboards/index.asp?product=8595
Out Of Stock
This item is currently out of stock. It is expected to arrive on 3/18/2011.

can you add any info about why everyone is out?

I'm sorry, I'm not involved in that side of the business - I just write the owner's manuals and brochures.

Questions relating to instrument pricing, distribution, and availability within the US are best handled by the folks at Kawai US.

Kind regards,
James
x

seems like alot of things are having production problems lately. must be the crappy economy. thanks obama! change alright.

Hi!! I'm sorry for my language but I am from Poland ( forgive me! ). I've read a lot of text about yamaha cvp especialy cvp 500 series. I am intersted to buy yamaha cvp 505 or 509. I know the differences between those two models but i want to know if 509 is worth its price?? I know that 505 is very good digital piano but 509 has more speakers - that means it better sounds. But is it worth to spend 2000$ more comparing to 505????
I will be very greatfull for answer!!
I want to add that I've never played on 505 and 509.
I tried to 403 and 405 and I love it!!

Hi!! I'm sorry for my language but I am from Poland ( forgive me! ). I've read a lot of text about yamaha cvp especialy cvp 500 series. I am intersted to buy yamaha cvp 505 or 509. I know the differences between those two models but i want to know if 509 is worth its price?? I know that 505 is very good digital piano but 509 has more speakers - that means it better sounds. But is it worth to spend 2000$ more comparing to 505????
I will be very greatfull for answer!!
I want to add that I've never played on 505 and 509.
I tried to 403 and 405 and I love it!!