Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum To strip mute or not, which is your favorite?

Isn't it great that we have some of the old masters recorded for posterity?

I am not saying that there are not good concert tuners that don't account for this, but this is an indisputable reality of physics having to do with the coupling of vibrating objects. Here's how to verify it:
1) select any note -- say f-45 -- and mute out two strings so one vibrates freely.
2) Mute two strings on the octave below (f-33)
3) Tune f-33 to f-45 as perfectly as you can using whatever means you want until the octave is as beatless as you can make it
4) Now move the mute on f-33 to expose an untuned string while still muting off one string.
5) Tune the 2nd string as perfectly as you can to the first string for as pure a unison as you can make.
6) Once again, play the f-33/f-45 octave and ...

Listen to the beat! f-33 is now flat to f-45!

On some notes this phenomenon may be more noticeable than others, but if you give this a few trials on different notes below c-52, it can be observed in more than half the trials.

Any tuner on the planet who does not account for this reality will become a better tuner if they do. It is a reality of physics and not of any particular tuning style. However, I don't think you can get there using a machine. (open to correction)

kpembrook

Could string rendering at the hitch pin account for this observation?

NO.

Let me be clear: This is a principle of physics -- widely understood by physicists and applicable to any coupled vibrating/oscillating bodies -- including electronic circuits. It is NOT anything to do with the individual eccentricities of pianos or their technicians. It is an objective, observable phenomenon that is "there"-- whether the majority of piano technicians are aware of it or not.

Here is a citation that indicates this is a generally-understood concept:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/CoupledStrings/CoupledStrings.pdf

And one dealing specifically with the phenomenon in the piano:
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/mistuned.html

When I am dead, you can pry my strip mutes from my cold, dead fingers!

Gee! I am already up 20 posts now that I added a few one line wise cracks.

Hopefully you won't be hanging by them! I know what these forums can do to you

I can always tune a single string best to another single string. I do not usually do so when tuning the third note in a unison or in the ends of a piano, but I don't see myself giving up the temperament strip in the middle section any time soon.

I want to try ASAP. I have a spinet in home, to sell. I can detune the temperament octave and retune it without using a temperament strip and without my ETD of course.

I don't want to practice in my client's pianos.

I have read 5 articles that Mr. Akins has given link to. I would like to see if the rest of participants have read them, and to get some explanations. I can understand generally what the authors are saying, but not much of the details seem very clear to me.

I have tried. I feel uncomfortable and I am confused about where to move the mutes and which strings to tune next. I guess I must think in advance what are going to be the most efficient sequence.

It works easier than I thought it would be. And yes, to listen at a three string reference note is more complicated, the unison must be perfect, even if the unison is to be moved after.

In my sequence, F3 is first estimated and then adjusted after other notes are tuned (set of CM3s). So I have to tune and retune all the strings of F3, F4 and C#4. Once the CM3s are set and the nine notes minitemperament from F3 to C#4 is tuned, the rest is easy tuned with the same procedure for all the notes of the piano.

It gives some breed to my work, making it more funny, as I leave my routine.

The reference from Keith Atkins gives some explanation for a frequency coupling effect for two closely coupled unison strings. The resilience of the support pins apparently allowing the already tuned string to vibrate as though it were slightly longer or shorter when the string being tuned approaches in frequency.
I wonder if Stuart and Sons piano exhibits this effect?
http://www.cmis.csiro.au/bob.anderssen/stuartpiano/stuartpiano.htm

We'll "prop" you up in the casket with mutes running around your fingers like rings just so someone can have more talk about later on. We'll place the tuning hammer CA'ed to your forehead. That outta get them to talking....

You have to find the way that suits your needs for tuning. If strip muting works for you then, use it, if not, don't.

Don't try to match what someone else does. Only one way will work for you and that is, your way. Some people are fast but, it's because they found what works for them and then they practiced a lot with various ways of doing it to perfection. I do both and sometimes, neither.

Just wanted to be clear that the "string coupling phenomenon" is only noticeable or significant on longer/taller pianos in a situation where it is already almost in tune. The phenomenon gets lost in the noise and instability that chacterize other situations. I can notice it on my Baldwin Hamilton 45" but it's really only worth bothering with on pianos longer than 5'9" or so.

That said, in a fine tuning situation on a fine grand that is at pitch and stable, accounting for string coupling WILL provide a result that is different and most people would call "better".

I am not an experienced tuner, so I must try whatever is available to me, to find out what fits me better.

I am open to new procedures, I hate to close my mind and say "this is the best". When I say that then I stop learning.

That said, I have learned procedures I didn't like and I discarded them immediately. For example setting the temperament using a circle of 5ths, that's not for me. Not that I can not tune a 5th, but I like to find the iH of the piano by tuning a set of CM3s and from there I continue to tune by 5th's and 4ths, and 8ves, checking with M3s or visceversa, tuning M3s and checking with 5ths and 4ths.

But in this case, strip mute the piano or not, I have worked the two ways and I've found intersting advantages of each procedure over the other. I have not decided which is best for me, so I'll try every thing that is available.

I seldom tune grand pianos, so accounting for string coupling is not a familiar issue to me. But I think that to be able to tune with open strings is an important skill, which I have not practiced until now. And setting the temperament, aurally, with a single wedge mute, or two, is a challenge for me.

For Grands, I nearly always strip mute the entire piano. I check and recheck both bass and treble along the way, but my average time at the college where I tune regularly and on pianos that I have tuned many many times is usually between 30 and 40 minutes a tuning on a grand. That is fast enough, and I canmute a grand in a minute or less. But that didn't come overnight, I have been tuning these same pianos for over 10 years and been tuning 40. So, what works for you is what is best for you. I use the pianotech wide strips for grands except for the high treble end, because I like the extra muting I get from the wide strips. But I have done it every way I can think of, some were fast, some were ponderous, and some had good results, others didn't. FOr me, I like stripping the whole grand and then for uprights I strip just the mid and bass and single mute the treble because of the methodology I use to get the treble in place. It depends o the grade of pianos you mostly tune, and the age of the piano and quite honestly how well you hear the notes. Develop your own syle and tweek it till it sings for you.

Just joking, Jer. It meant I like my procedure because it works for me. I think there is an e-mail from you in my business account that I have not yet responded to. Sorry about that. I will get to it. PTG-L has overloaded that account lately. Don't worry, I am on track for that meeting in May.

My class at the upcoming convention in Kansas City will show how I deal with the strip mute vs. single mute process for the highest quality concert tunings. I understand both sides of the issue but I have lingering doubts about those who claim more than I can ever believe from the single mute process.

I'm all about the most efficient means to an end. The end has to be what is intended and a high quality product. There can be more than one way to get there. I've always said that every technician needs to find the techniques that work the best for them personally.

Oh, I know you were only kidding Bill. I can't help but throw in a couple of hundred jokes myself for a laugh or 15!

Yes, they were wondering about time limits etc., along with a few other things that I asked you about for the May meeting...

I abandoned strip muting years ago, in favor of using two mutes I work from my pinkie by flying them in and out of the piano as needed, but recently my computer cord fried and it turned out I was stuck ordering the replacement from an online distributor (why Best Buy sells computers without selling replacement cords for that mocel is another topic!)

Anyway, I was forced to spend the better part of a week's schedule strip muting and going back to my C Tuning fork! At first it was foreign, but it actually seems like a faster process (in actuality, its probably not). Pitch raises without a modern ETD are still the same as they were in decades past-a total PITA!

But I thought the results were similar to my ETD results given that I never rely upon the ETD entirely anyway, opting instead for the interval tests I've adopted. But, coming back "online" with my notebook and T-Lab was an almost immediate reduction in job fatigue...

I'm probably with the "tune unisons as you go" crowd, but I keep an open mind.

RPD