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I think we'd all basically be in agreement. This is more an argument over words than substance.
Agreed. Without being able to play for each other, to demonstrate in action what we are teaching, words are likely to result in ever-increasing miscommunication and confusion.
But this is far beyond the intent of this thread. I agree that if one seeks to create sounds like one's pianistic heroes then one will seek any number of means to achieve this end. If one wants to play the piano with ease, freedom, expression, range and so forth, effectively communicating with and through the piano without believing one has fallen short simply because one does not play like Horowitz, then one may not feel so driven to your kind of reworking of the hand action.
I am unashamed in saying that my primary purpose in playing the piano does not include matching the dynamic range of Horowitz or Cortot.
I saw someone reading this thread which I think I missed (maybe banned?). I really like this Elene. If I had one, my motto would be - Be true to yourself not Horowitz! and I can't help thinking he would have agreed
Last edited by keyboardklutz; 02/21/1104:54 AM. Reason: yeh, I was banned - the Leopold Mozart's Tutor incident!
I really think it's about learning how to listen to your body. Mostly I find pianist vs piano when in reality it should be pianist collaborating with piano.
Is there a correct way or is it just one man's opinion from another?
It's all about context. Some ways tend to land more heavily whereas others tend to absorb impact. Also, some enable massive acceleration, whereas others limit it. Everyone ought to at least be familiar with ways to produce more acceleration with less impact- unless they want to be limited in the range of what they can do. I wrote a blog post about how different ways of using a pencil to depress a key lead to very different results. The first part is in the end of this post (see part two also):
A pencil is obviously a little different from the finger itself, but it gives a good illustration of how some styles of leverage are more effective than others. It's particularly of note that lowering the far end of a lever seriously reduces the energy transfer (contrary to what many pianists actually seem to think- when starting with a raised wrist and lowering it down). Raising it during leverage makes far more possible. It actually takes a fair bit of practise to use a pencil to pull a key strongly while getting a very soft landing- although it's worth it, to understand the basis of the finger can act in a similar way.
Is there a correct way or is it just one man's opinion from another?
It's all about context. Some ways tend to land more heavily whereas others tend to absorb impact. Also, some enable massive acceleration, whereas others limit it. Everyone ought to at least be familiar with ways to produce more acceleration with less impact- unless they want to be limited in the range of what they can do. I wrote a blog post about how different ways of using a pencil to depress a key lead to very different results. The first part is in the end of this post (see part two also):
A pencil is obviously a little different from the finger itself, but it gives a good illustration of how some styles of leverage are more effective than others. It's particularly of note that lowering the far end of a lever seriously reduces the energy transfer (contrary to what many pianists actually seem to think- when starting with a raised wrist and lowering it down). Raising it during leverage makes far more possible. It actually takes a fair bit of practise to use a pencil to pull a key strongly while getting a very soft landing- although it's worth it, to understand the basis of the finger can act in a similar way.
It's funny how one scholar or teacher can tell you one thing. Then another can tell you something totally different like "your doing it all wrong" or "do it this way". Who do you listen to?
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain
It's funny how one scholar or teacher can tell you one thing. Then another can tell you something totally different like "your doing it all wrong" or "do it this way". Who do you listen to?
You need to find the best way for yourself- but why not get used to the whole range? Start with a totally flat finger and lightly pull it into a curved position- allowing a lightened arm to follow behind. It's a great way of feeling where your finger is most comfortable and getting acquainted with every possible position.
This silent video is the best advice I know on the four different ways to bring about key depression. The hand's mine by the way:
Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi
Just to illustrate the sheer importance of a supportive hand, here's Carola Grindea's hand. Do those pronounced knuckles reveal the shape of a 'relaxed' hand, or a shape that has been formed through efficient, well-controlled grip in the hand? I have rarely seen a more solidly formed arch. This is clearly the kind of hand that supports enough at the keyboard to reduce the requirement of extensive balancing forces further back in the arm- in a fashion that (unlike some methods) does not purport to break any laws of physics.
This silent video is the best advice I know on the four different ways to bring about key depression. The hand's mine by the way:
Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi
Just to illustrate the sheer importance of a supportive hand, here's Carola Grindea's hand. Do those pronounced knuckles reveal the shape of a 'relaxed' hand, or a shape that has been formed through efficient, well-controlled grip in the hand? I have rarely seen a more solidly formed arch. This is clearly the kind of hand that supports enough at the keyboard to reduce the requirement of extensive balancing forces further back in the arm- in a fashion that (unlike some methods) does not purport to break any laws of physics.
That could possibly be the funniest video I have ever seen. It looks like your hand is trying to make love to the keyboard. It's not that serious. It's just trying to play a keyboard or piano.
Last edited by joeb84; 02/21/1104:24 PM.
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain
This silent video is the best advice I know on the four different ways to bring about key depression. The hand's mine by the way:[quote=Nyiregyhazi]Just to illustrate the sheer importance of a supportive hand, here's Carola Grindea's hand. Do those pronounced knuckles reveal the shape of a 'relaxed' hand, or a shape that has been formed through efficient, well-controlled grip in the hand? I have rarely seen a more solidly formed arch. This is clearly the kind of hand that supports enough at the keyboard to reduce the requirement of extensive balancing forces further back in the arm- in a fashion that (unlike some methods) does not purport to break any laws of physics.
You're resuscitating this nonsense again? As I explained at the time- that hand has excellent solid arch shape in the knuckles (which you sadly you abandon in your other videos, rather than benefit from). The strong shape your hand makes there is nowhere to been seen elsewhere- hence the error.
Just how intent are you on shoe-horning a personal vendetta into any topic? Intent enough to scour the archives and quote a post I wrote about 2 years ago? Accusing me of dishonesty and libelling me in another thread wasn't good enough for you? I have no interest whatsoever in any silly personal battles with you. If you make any further attempts to draw me into one it will be going straight to the moderators.
Incidentally, I am rather flattered that you had to go two whole years back in the archive, in order to try make me look silly. Anyway, I now know better than to be so short-sighted as to assume that the way a person shapes the knuckles of their hand when moving over the keys will have any bearing upon the whether they employ a stable arch while generally playing.
Many problems come from the fact that most work toward a technique suited exactly to a contemporary standard - the idea that all pianos should have the same action and you train to play that ideal piano. For what other instrument is that the case? Every oboist has their own bespoke reeds, every violin differs as does every guitar. I've seen a highly regarded pianist bashing away on a lighter-than-conventional piano action as if they're playing their Steinway at home and consequently breaking strings. Why should the instrument accommodate your technique? It should be the other way around - why would you want it any other way? The MacDonald's school of piano playing?
