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#162970 - 02/19/07 08:18 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10343
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Turnadot,

In my experience most shoppers didn't want the name to show, rather than objecting to the country of manufacture.

I too object to the "false history" practice of many manufacturers. It is particularly obvious in soundboard decals. Many brands, including companies I have represented both at retail and thru consulting, put decal on soundboards tauting "Winner World Piano Exposition, 1886", when the scale design that actually won had been abandoned years ago. The same goes for their history. If the design is dissimilar, then tauting the history is misleading.

For example, Young Chang recently re-labeled their Pramberger Series "Weber". Their website tauts Albert Weber's history. I disagree with this marketing methodology. I do not want to slam YC or single them out. MANY manufactures use this tactic. (In fact, YC is careful to word the text as "out of the tradition of" or similar wording.

It is also true of the way dealerships are represented. A major chain in my market claims a founding in 1912. It was purchased by a buyer completely unrealted to the founders in about 1975!

When one changes scale designs, or in the case of dealerships changes owner-families, the history of the oruiginal doesn't go with the sale. It follows the design or, in the case of dealerships, the family of the founder(s).
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#162971 - 02/19/07 10:18 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6150
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dino:

The Owner of the Hailun factory is Mr. Chen Hailun. Mr. Chen’s business card reads:

“Chen Hailun”
“Chairman Director”

In all fairness to Terry; as is customary in China, one’s last name comes first on business cards. If one was not familiar with Chinese customs or had not been formally introduced to someone, going by a business card for example, would be confusing.
You're right. I screwed up.
My apology to Mr. Wilson and Mr. Chen.
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#162972 - 02/19/07 10:32 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
PSS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 893
 Quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dino:

The Owner of the Hailun factory is Mr. Chen Hailun. Mr. Chen’s business card reads:

“Chen Hailun”
“Chairman Director”

In all fairness to Terry; as is customary in China, one’s last name comes first on business cards. If one was not familiar with Chinese customs or had not been formally introduced to someone, going by a business card for example, would be confusing.
You're right. I screwed up.
My apology to Mr. Wilson and Mr. Chen. [/b]
Apology accepted. I was formally introduced to him at NAMM, and was very impressed with his passion, pianos, and business plan.

Bottom line the piano is very impressive.

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#162973 - 02/19/07 11:37 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Bottom line the piano is very impressive.
Bottom line, Chinese pianos have arrived.

Especially said pianos above..... ;\)

I announced this months ago when mentioning the new Steigerman Premium series - and next getting raked over the coals here.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/15212.html#000003

[Even received a stern warning from Frank's headoffice.... ]

Good'ol Norbert who saw the light some 10 years ago and next being accused of hyping this new name out there called "Estonia" - was at it again.....

But more's to come.

This time, won't tell.

Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#162974 - 02/20/07 06:03 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Mr. Flacco

 Quote:
Schwammerl,


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Wendl & Lung must be lieing when showing pictures of Mr Chen Hailun ( click Wendl & Lung History - 1990:4th picture form right): http://www.wendl-lung.com/Website/English/fs_wendllung.htm

Or the Swiss W&L distrubutor must then be wrong also (3rd and 4th picture): http://www.scanavini.ch/galerie.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not think anyone was lying as you suggest. That is a rather strong accusation to make. I think that they were merley mistaken as to what they printed on their websites. If you read my earlier post, you will understand why that may have been.
Of course I did not mean anyone was lying. This statement was just ironically meant as nobody could ever imagine that on two different websites pictures were posted with the name of Mr. Chen Hailun or Hailun Chen under it, and that the person would not excist. Sorry you misunderstood.

 Quote:
Yes, it is my understanding that the 115 model was Peter’s design. I do not understand your point however. The design is not exclusive to Wendle & Lung if that was your question.
I was just a bit puzzeled because the statement Peter Veletzky once made on a German forum was quite firm: "Modell 115 would never be on the market with another name (W&L)"
 Quote:
die mit dem bereits auf dem Markt befindlichen Modell 115 ihren Anfang gefunden haben und nie unter einem anderen Namen auf den Markt kommen werden.
see: http://www.vioworld-klassik.de/go.php?ur...e=Neueinsteiger
But this is not an issue; business strategies may change over time.

schwammerl.

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#162975 - 02/20/07 04:13 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
I don't think statements by a distributor of any one manufacturer make sense to be counter-checked for consistency by those made by others on different continents.

Anybody who carefully compares websites by manufacturers on a worldwide basis, might come across certain models or description of them not entirely identical or consistent on the varying sites.

In Europe for example, nobody claims to have their pianos "made or seasoned for the European continent only"....which certainly is not to discourage buyers for such make to buy it on the other side of the ocean anyways .....

If you happen to look at the 115 Wendl&Lung model in Europe, let the dealer demonstrate it to you - then decide yourself if it is suitable for you.

Wishing you the best for your search!


Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#162976 - 02/20/07 05:03 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
I don't think statements by a distributor of any one manufacturer make sense to be counter-checked for consistency by those made by others on different continents.
Norbert, what distributor[/b] are you referring to? Just to learn something, did you mean Wendl & Lung Vienna (P. Veletzky) and is your definition of W&L, a distributor?

How would you define Steigerman Music Corp. If I look at "the company" on their website they don't give me the impression of seeing themselves as merely a distributor, but I could be wrong.
 Quote:
A responsive instrument begins with the company that makes it.
or
 Quote:
So Steigerman has gone to great lengths to build an exceptionally responsive instrument.
schwammerl.

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#162977 - 02/20/07 05:12 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Hello Schwammerl

That's really the issue. And if you industry pros can be confused about it or squabble about it, think of the consumer's bewilderment. Some piano companies seem to be little more than retrofitters who have the factory's permission to mate some European upgrade part to a stock Chinese model. Their exclusivity (if any) may be limited to just the application of that one upgrade.

In most industries retrofitted products appear after the stock model is in use. It seems with pianos that the opposite can be true. Thus Wendl and Lung and Steigerman are in the western marketplace before the stock Hailun appears.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#162978 - 02/20/07 05:20 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Turandot

You might be right with your statement. But if you would consider me as an industry pro, then you get it wrong (check my profile please). I am not and was never involved in the piano business but just an ordinary forum member piano owner!

In fact I asked the question just to find out/to learn what the "real pros" have to say about it.

schwammerl.

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#162979 - 02/20/07 07:19 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
schwammerl:

As an owner of a nice Wendl&Lung grand yourself, I am surprised you keep torturing yourself with these kind of questions.

Ever having bought anything 'German' these days and then finding out some 10 odd companies from around the globe were involved building the thing?

Talked to and shook hands with everybody involved in the making and distributing of your last Braun, Phillips or Remington shaver in the past? \:D

Please don't forget that not the whole world is like old Europe [used to be...] where companies often go back 100's of years and are still sometimes owned by the original, founding families..... ;\)

It's my understanding you are actually very happy with the piano you own and made your decision at time of purchase having had many other choices available to you as well - I believe you also looked at Schimmels at the time ??

So, why now all these questions?

Everybody knows,Hailun is the maker of both Wendl & Lung in Europe and Steigerman Premium pianos in North America: both companies act as their own importers/distributors and have their own specifications and/or exclusive features for their pianos and for their own markets.

For us as dealers the by far most important concern is the same as 99% of our customers have: a great piano offered at great price and being backed 100% by its company.

If one nees "more" [or 'less'... \:D ] - one can always look of course elsewhere...it's a free world.

It seems, you haven't yourself.

Norbert \:\)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#162980 - 02/20/07 09:42 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
from Norbert
 Quote:
Everybody knows,Hailun is the maker of both Wendl & Lung in Europe and Steigerman Premium pianos in North America: both companies act as their own importers/distributors and have their own specifications and/or exclusive features for their pianos and for their own markets.
You are wrong. Not everyone knows this. It's a pretty smug comment in my estimation.

I wasn't going to get back into this thread since I NOW know enough about the choices available, but the statement that everybody knows should not go unchallenged.

Many posters to this thread have clarified the Hailun / Steigerman / Wendl and Lung connection.
Mr. Flacco has documented the Steigerman journey to Vienna where borrowed pianos from Wendl and Lung were used to ascertain the suitability of Renner hammers and full actions for use in Wailun stock pianos that Steigerman planned to market with Renner upgrades. If that sounds confusing, it is....and it's the procedure, not the language.

Wzkit added information that in Singapore a person could play Wendl and Lung and Hailun pianos in the same dealership and also noted that the sound and price were similar. On the other hand, your contributions until now have consisted mainly in sharing your enthusiasm for Steigerman premium pianos with fellow industry folks and potential customers. Oh yes...and dismissing the Wendl and Lung Veletsky design as not worthy of being bothered with.
 Quote:
Here in Canada, we don't even bother much with the 115 Steigerman Premium and concentrate much more on their 123 and 125 upright models.
Steigerman claims on their website to be a builder of pianos.
 Quote:
Strike a single bass note on a piano of distinctive European lineage and you'll agree there's no mistaking its rich, resonant tone. What you're hearing is the sound of meticulous craftsmanship, uncompromising design and years of piano-making experience. As you might expect, this sound comes at a price. One as rich as the instrument's bloodline.......
So Steigerman has gone to great lengths to build an exceptionally responsive instrument. Hammers, action mechanism, soundboard and strings have all been carefully engineered to maximize performance, without compromising Steigerman's ongoing commitment to affordability.
What is a builder? What is a piano maker? If the first part of the Steigerman blurb came from a certain Mr. Wilson, he would be pilloried for it.

Maybe consumers like me have to change our definiton of what a builder is when we think about pianos. Shopping for a piano has been a revelation for me...a revelation of how far information can be pushed past the point of truthfulness without some people batting an eyelash.

Does everyone know? NO, everyone does NOT.

Since the stated purpose of this forum is to bring about transparency in the industry, I would think that the guiding philosophy would be that everyone should know, should be informed, so as to make correct choices in purchasing an expensive item. A piano is after all not an electric shaver. I would think that your comments to Schwammerl are not in keeping with that philosophy.
 Quote:
As an owner of a nice Wendl&Lung grand yourself, I am surprised you keep torturing yourself with these kind of questions.
If one nees "more" [or 'less'... ] - one can always look of course elsewhere...it's a free world.

It seems, you haven't yourself.
.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#162981 - 02/21/07 12:28 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
torandot:

My comments were directed at someone [schwammerl..] who seems to be torturing himself while actually being the happy owner of one of Hailun's pianos.

You're *not*.

So, what's the agenda?

What contribution to you wish to make for those who seem to be quite able to make choices for themselves?

Kindly elaborate.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#162982 - 02/21/07 03:22 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Nurbert,

I'll stand on my earlier post. If you are not going to get the point, then you aren't, and actually in the scheme of things, that makes little or no difference.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#162983 - 02/21/07 11:41 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Turandot:

You remind me on a guy who takes courses in bio-chemistry before going on a date.

To "understand" what you'll face when having a cup of coffee with someone later..... :p

Unfortunately neither your opinion [whatever that is..] nor me, being "in the scheme of things", will prevent the inevitable:

Hailun, under name 'Steigerman Premium' and Wendl&Lung, will be and presently *is* building the best,or at least among the very best, pianos coming currently out of China.

Our company didn't commit itself until this was abundundantly clear - nor did the many customers of this piano to date.

Your opinion may very well be in posssible contradiction of this.

Just one final advice: Steigerman Premium pianos are extremely appealing for both classical and Jazz type players. [especially the 123 ones up.... ;\) ]

But don't try one.

I might be held responsible for you ending up getting one yourself in the end......

Norbert \:D
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#162984 - 02/21/07 12:03 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
cerulean5 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 678
Loc: USA
Hi Turandot,

Norbert is ...well, just being *Norbertian.* ;\)

While I applaud you, turandot, for taking him to task on the post in question, you aren't going to change the way he writes (occasionally nebulous enough to puzzle and/or irritate people). Many people have taken him to task for it in the past, to absolutely no effect whatsoever. \:D

Cheerfully observing,

--c5

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#162985 - 02/21/07 12:13 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
"Taking me to task?"

Good one.

Norbert \:D
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#162986 - 02/21/07 12:30 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
cerulean5 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 678
Loc: USA
That's OK, the joke's on you.

--c5

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#162987 - 02/26/07 06:12 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
I am trying to resuscitate this thread because Mr. Terry Wilson of Piano$uperstore indicated over the weekend on another thread that he would be offering a line of Hailun pianos.
from Mr. Wilson
 Quote:
I am happy to annouce that we will be introducing a new line of pianos made in the Hailun factory very soon that I think you will be interested in.
It would seem to be of interest to follow up on this since there are relatively few opportunities to see what Piano$uperstore is planning next. Most discussion in this forum focuses on what it has already done.

To recap this thread before that announcement:

1. Everyone who commented from firsthand experience on pianos made in the Hailun factory was complimentary to them, with several contributors speaking of them in glowing terms. That included Mr. Dino Flacco of Steigerman music who provided a very detailed and (IMO) fair-minded evaluation of the different Hailun products.

2. HailunUSA is in the process of assembling its own dealer network in the US, and within a short tiime will announce its first dealership on the West Coast.

3. Existing distribution channels for Hailun-made pianos include Wendl and Lung and Steigerman Music.

4. Steigerman Music offers Hailun pianos with a variety of European upgrades in Canada and the United States. Those pianos are sold on the market as Steigerman premium.

5. Wendl and Lung is involved in the design of some Hailun products. Their arrangement with Hailun seems to be in the nature of a partnership. Wendl and Lung Hailun products are marketed in Europe after passing through Vienna for a final quality control check. Wendl and Lung pianos are also offered in Japan, Singapore and other Asian countries. Presumably these pianos do not pass through Vienna. Wendl and Lung pianos are available in eastern Canada. Wendl and Lung pianos were shipped to Pianoforte in Chicago and available there a while ago, although possibly not now.

6. M. Hailun Chen, the owner of Hailun piano, has decided to put his name on the fallboard in marketing his pianos directly in the US.

7. Mr. Chen seems to have such a low profile in the industry that his very existence was questioned early in this thread.

8. Because of a disagreement over the use of the Steigerman name in Piano$superstore advertising, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Flacco (who heads the US marketing effort for Steigerman) are not on the best of terms currently.

10.The standing disagreement between Mr. Wilson and Steigerman is probably related to the Steigerman classic line, and not the premium line which is a Hailun product.

Initially I was interested in the Hailun piano because as a consumer I was attracted to any Chinese piano company which would put its own feet in the water to test the market, rather than hiding behind Western-style marketing arrangements that involve Germanic names and dubious verbiage. I did not know that Hailun was already marketed outside of China under two different names, and that the pseudo-Germanic family heritage nonsense was already in place.(an ignorant consumer....what else would you expect?)

Now I am interested for a different reason. I still haven't been able to try out a Hailun piano, and my initial enthsiasm is waning. but I am curious to see how a piano which has drawn very very favorable reviews from those who have tried it will compete simultaneously in the US market as HailunUSA and Steigerman premium with the colorful and controversial Mr. Wilson joining in the fun.

I have sent two E-mails to HailunUSA in Atlanta asking for confirmation of the Piano$uperstore connection. I have not received a reply. As a consumer, I may never receive one. Perhaps someone in the industry who for some masochistic reason shares my curiosity (and thirst for knowledge about Piano$uperstore) could cut through bureaucracy and verify Mr. Wilson's claim. In other words, could someone take the ball and run with it?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#162988 - 02/27/07 01:14 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
PSS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 893
Turandot,
Give me a call. If you want to try one out we can arrange it.

Thanks

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#162989 - 02/27/07 02:19 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Frank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 379
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Turandot,
Call him. He will arrange for you to try one.
Call me too.
I can arrange for you to try one too.
I can also arrange for you to try a Steinway,Samick,Y.Chang,Bechstein,Steigerman,Fazioli,Estonia,Wyman,Baldwin,Knabe... My wrist is sore writing all these pianos I can arrange for you to try.
I can't sell you a new one though.
Even if I buy one through another dealer in the box out of the warehouse/bankruptcy,liquidation, it would be used as the original factory/distributor invoice would be registered to the other dealer.
Unless of course he is an Authorized dealer for that product.
But if that is the case, there is no supply chain to be so secretive about.

Can he?

I wonder.

Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
_________________________
Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com

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#162990 - 02/27/07 02:30 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
PSS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 893
Turandot,

Give me a call, I'll make it worth your wild just so you can report back.

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#162991 - 02/27/07 05:19 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Mr. Wilson,

Thank you for your offer. I won't be calling. Today I agreed to purchase a piano that I had on a trial basis. I'm happy with it, with the shop that sold it, and with the service and warranty terms.

I would like to take the opportunity to tell you that although I have been conscripted into Mr. Bukai's army of assasins, it was without my knoweldge or consent. I too am tired of seeing my brief quote about the deafening silence trotted out every hour or so as part of Mr. Bukai's litany.

When I agreed to leave the thread, I wished Mr. Bukai well on his quest for the truth. But as another person said during the thread, just because a question is asked does not mean that it has to be answered.

If you were to look at my posts on the thread, my basic concern was Mr. Bukai's slamming of every aspect of the Chinese and Indonesian piano industry. When I responded to it, I was the only person who did. Where were all of the happy owners of Chinese made pianos? Where were the dealers like Mr. Cohen who make their living from the sale of Asian instruments and whose thread was being diverted into a quest to do justice for one high-line piano? I don't know where they were. But if someone came into my house and insulted my piano as being cheap or insulted the way I make my living as involving cheap and poorly made products and services, that person would be shown the door.

In Mr. Bukai's more recent posts, I notice now I am listed as one who has condemned you. If Mr. Bukai in fact lynches you, I suppose I will be on trial for murder as well.

Mr. Wilson. I have defended you on prior occasions. On one occasion I remarked that the Steigerman European bloodline blurb was at least as bad as your charming Ellenburg family story. On another occasion I made note of the fact that you do not slam your competitors.

In this thread I said that your Ebay profile of private sales was unusual in that it hid the identity of the item sold rather than the identity of the buyer. I also stated that Ebay is remarkably vigilant in protecting its marketplace and its members from fraud, and that the fact you had survived there all these years should not be overlooked. I have sent an Email to Ebay asking for a clarification on what information can be private in a private listing. I have not accused you of anything. In my mind it's completely plausible that you are afforded some privacy there based on the revenue source that you provide Ebay with your Ebay store and frequent use of premiere listings. I also noted that the feedback system seemed to me to be almost bulletproof. I have not heard from Ebay. I expect I will. They usualy respond in 48 to 72 hours to member questions.

My own sense of the situation is that many here despise you. If you were to be tried here, you would certainly be granted a change of venue by any competent judge. Most retailers either feel that the Internet cheapens their business, or don't have any idea of how to use it. Some are blessed with both of these deficiencies. Retailer's efforts on Ebay are pitiful. I'm sure you know that. The retailers who frequent this forum by and large don't even know how to update their own website to keep it current. Many of the distributors' efforts are laughable as well.

You sell low-cost merchandise...what Mr. Bukai would consider to be CHEAP! He is living proof that that charge alone is enough to set some people off. In addition, you cross territorial turf lines. This seems to be a vital concern to many. Your merchandise is not clearly branded as to origin of build and model differentiation. This point is trotted out as concern for the helpless consumer. But in reality, most of those asking you to reveal this want the information for their own benefit, not to save consumers. If distributors and retailers were truly concerned about consumers, the marketplace wouldn't be filled to the gills with all of the convoluted mumbo-jumbo of brand names and stencils.

You are accused of a variety of contradictory charges

1. having no merchandise and no customers

2. selling what you don't have in stock

3. selling defective returned Costco merchandise

4. selling only Ebooks

5. operating a bait and switch

6. undercutting the retail trade

7. being only a piano mover

8. selling merchandise that is not what you say it is

I'm sure there are more. The significance of all these charges to me is that nobody (at least on this forum) really has any idea what you are doing. To me that lends a certain credence to your claims that you are not going to be goaded into divulging your trade secrets.

From all of this, I feel I have no right to judge you. If I saw your ad and was troubled by the sketchy information about a piano and its origin but was interested nonetheless, I would call you. If your toll-free number with operators standing by did not answer my specific questions, I would simply decline to buy. Certainly, I have a duty to find the facts before I make a big purchase.
If you lied to me and I got something different from what I was sold, or got nothing at all, I would demand a refund from you. If that failed, I would file a Paypal claim. If I paid with my credit card, I would file a report with the credit card company. Maybe I'm naive, butI think that somewhere along the line the issue would be resolved to my satisfaction.

I would offer you a different challenge from Mr. Bukai. The Forster piano is history. I would challenge you about the future.

1. Bring some of your happy customers out of the closet. Listening to you drone on about Paypal fraud protection, Bonding, and all of that is tiresome. It's true that there aren't any unhappy customers making noise. But it's also true that you have no testimonials that can be tracked and verified. Your entire customer base is as invisible as the Ellenburg family. Let's hear from them. No offense, but listening to you and you alone becomes boring.

2. In the future get out of the stenciling business to the extent you can. Today's consumers deserve better than the Ellenburg family. We are not the wealthy dowagers who made it hard for Mr. Flacco or Mr. Cohen to sell them anything with an Asian name on the fallboard. This is 2007. We live in a multi-cultural society in an ever-shrinking world. The Chinese culture is one of the oldest and most prestigious in the world. Let's take a step in the right direction.

If you are really going to sell a Hailun piano, try to sell it as a Hailun with that name on the fallboard. I'm not blaming all this nonsense on you. But you can initiate a trend in the right direction. Put the name in Chinese characters to make it exotic if you like. If for contractual reasons you can't brand it Hailun, then either refuse to sell it or stencil it as a Wilson, not an Ellenburg, and disclose in every description of it where it was made. Put your name on it and stand by it instead of hiding behind it. If you have the ear of Mr. Chen, tell him that the American public is not as culturally bigoted as he might think.

Well, I've said my piece and I apologize if this is as long as Mr. Bukai's litany. But I feel better for having said it, and if this makes for a hung jury, so be it.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#162992 - 02/27/07 08:02 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
Turandot,

Congratulations on your purchase. You'll have to let us know soon what you bought.

There are a lot of great people on PW. Hopefully over time you will get to know them. You learn a lot about people from how they write and what they have to say. Credibility speaks for itself over time but more importantly its those that contribute to the greater good here that are the most interesting.

I hope you enjoyed the opera here of late, like Wagner, I suspect there is always more to come.

Top
#162993 - 02/27/07 09:30 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
fingers Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 799
Loc: Westchester, NY
Turandot,

Congratulations on your new piano!

At the risk of sounding like a critic, I would like to comment on your writing style.
With respect to your above post, if you didn't list your occupation as a teacher, I would have guessed it would be that of Judge. (More Wapner than Judy) \:\)

You summarized opposing sides of the argument in a clear and detached manner, and then stated your position along with reasons to support your conclusions.

IMO, you wrote a very clear and balanced post on a heated topic. Thank you.


Regards,
fingers
_________________________
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.

Top
#162994 - 02/27/07 09:57 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
Turandot,
Very eloquently stated. I dito fingers post and will hope that you stick around.
Congratulations on your new piano.

Mike
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

Top
#162995 - 02/27/07 10:43 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Turandot,

Congratulations on your new piano. Please keep posting, but meanwhile do not forget to play the piano!

By the way I did not participate in the "pianosuperstore" thread you are referring to in your summary post because there is nothing I could contribute to this specific U.S. debate.
But if you ask:
 Quote:
Where were all of the happy owners of Chinese made pianos?
, well I am not afraid to tell I am very happy with my Wendl & Lung 161. But I think we all learned from this thread we have to be careful and specific if we make any statement on chinese pianos. Therefore I should say "very happy with my W&L 161 from Wendl & Lung Europe-Vienna, made in the Hailun factory China". I cannot speak for any Hailun US, Steigerman, Bernstein, Hailun Asia etc.

schwammerl.

Top
#162996 - 02/27/07 12:31 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
PSS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 893
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Mr. Wilson,

Thank you for your offer. I won't be calling. Today I agreed to purchase a piano that I had on a trial basis. I'm happy with it, with the shop that sold it, and with the service and warranty terms.

I would like to take the opportunity to tell you that although I have been conscripted into Mr. Bukai's army of assasins, it was without my knoweldge or consent. I too am tired of seeing my brief quote about the deafening silence trotted out every hour or so as part of Mr. Bukai's litany.

When I agreed to leave the thread, I wished Mr. Bukai well on his quest for the truth. But as another person said during the thread, just because a question is asked does not mean that it has to be answered.

If you were to look at my posts on the thread, my basic concern was Mr. Bukai's slamming of every aspect of the Chinese and Indonesian piano industry. When I responded to it, I was the only person who did. Where were all of the happy owners of Chinese made pianos? Where were the dealers like Mr. Cohen who make their living from the sale of Asian instruments and whose thread was being diverted into a quest to do justice for one high-line piano? I don't know where they were. But if someone came into my house and insulted my piano as being cheap or insulted the way I make my living as involving cheap and poorly made products and services, that person would be shown the door.

In Mr. Bukai's more recent posts, I notice now I am listed as one who has condemned you. If Mr. Bukai in fact lynches you, I suppose I will be on trial for murder as well.

Mr. Wilson. I have defended you on prior occasions. On one occasion I remarked that the Steigerman European bloodline blurb was at least as bad as your charming Ellenburg family story. On another occasion I made note of the fact that you do not slam your competitors.

In this thread I said that your Ebay profile of private sales was unusual in that it hid the identity of the item sold rather than the identity of the buyer. I also stated that Ebay is remarkably vigilant in protecting its marketplace and its members from fraud, and that the fact you had survived there all these years should not be overlooked. I have sent an Email to Ebay asking for a clarification on what information can be private in a private listing. I have not accused you of anything. In my mind it's completely plausible that you are afforded some privacy there based on the revenue source that you provide Ebay with your Ebay store and frequent use of premiere listings. I also noted that the feedback system seemed to me to be almost bulletproof. I have not heard from Ebay. I expect I will. They usualy respond in 48 to 72 hours to member questions.

My own sense of the situation is that many here despise you. If you were to be tried here, you would certainly be granted a change of venue by any competent judge. Most retailers either feel that the Internet cheapens their business, or don't have any idea of how to use it. Some are blessed with both of these deficiencies. Retailer's efforts on Ebay are pitiful. I'm sure you know that. The retailers who frequent this forum by and large don't even know how to update their own website to keep it current. Many of the distributors' efforts are laughable as well.

You sell low-cost merchandise...what Mr. Bukai would consider to be CHEAP! He is living proof that that charge alone is enough to set some people off. In addition, you cross territorial turf lines. This seems to be a vital concern to many. Your merchandise is not clearly branded as to origin of build and model differentiation. This point is trotted out as concern for the helpless consumer. But in reality, most of those asking you to reveal this want the information for their own benefit, not to save consumers. If distributors and retailers were truly concerned about consumers, the marketplace wouldn't be filled to the gills with all of the convoluted mumbo-jumbo of brand names and stencils.

You are accused of a variety of contradictory charges

1. having no merchandise and no customers

2. selling what you don't have in stock

3. selling defective returned Costco merchandise

4. selling only Ebooks

5. operating a bait and switch

6. undercutting the retail trade

7. being only a piano mover

8. selling merchandise that is not what you say it is

I'm sure there are more. The significance of all these charges to me is that nobody (at least on this forum) really has any idea what you are doing. To me that lends a certain credence to your claims that you are not going to be goaded into divulging your trade secrets.

From all of this, I feel I have no right to judge you. If I saw your ad and was troubled by the sketchy information about a piano and its origin but was interested nonetheless, I would call you. If your toll-free number with operators standing by did not answer my specific questions, I would simply decline to buy. Certainly, I have a duty to find the facts before I make a big purchase.
If you lied to me and I got something different from what I was sold, or got nothing at all, I would demand a refund from you. If that failed, I would file a Paypal claim. If I paid with my credit card, I would file a report with the credit card company. Maybe I'm naive, butI think that somewhere along the line the issue would be resolved to my satisfaction.

I would offer you a different challenge from Mr. Bukai. The Forster piano is history. I would challenge you about the future.

1. Bring some of your happy customers out of the closet. Listening to you drone on about Paypal fraud protection, Bonding, and all of that is tiresome. It's true that there aren't any unhappy customers making noise. But it's also true that you have no testimonials that can be tracked and verified. Your entire customer base is as invisible as the Ellenburg family. Let's hear from them. No offense, but listening to you and you alone becomes boring.

2. In the future get out of the stenciling business to the extent you can. Today's consumers deserve better than the Ellenburg family. We are not the wealthy dowagers who made it hard for Mr. Flacco or Mr. Cohen to sell them anything with an Asian name on the fallboard. This is 2007. We live in a multi-cultural society in an ever-shrinking world. The Chinese culture is one of the oldest and most prestigious in the world. Let's take a step in the right direction.

If you are really going to sell a Hailun piano, try to sell it as a Hailun with that name on the fallboard. I'm not blaming all this nonsense on you. But you can initiate a trend in the right direction. Put the name in Chinese characters to make it exotic if you like. If for contractual reasons you can't brand it Hailun, then either refuse to sell it or stencil it as a Wilson, not an Ellenburg, and disclose in every description of it where it was made. Put your name on it and stand by it instead of hiding behind it. If you have the ear of Mr. Chen, tell him that the American public is not as culturally bigoted as he might think.

Well, I've said my piece and I apologize if this is as long as Mr. Bukai's litany. But I feel better for having said it, and if this makes for a hung jury, so be it. [/b]
Turandot,
Thank you so much for your balanced and articulate response and post. Just as an FYI there is a forum member by the name of Speed Racer who posted here about buying a piano from us. He will be receiving his piano very shortly. Only he can tell the forum here what his experience with us has been, but I hope he would be treated with some courtesy when and if he decides to post.

I agree with your comments on some of the stenciling and hope you will stay tuned for some of the changes that are coming. Just as an FYI to the piano I was offering for you to see and try was indeed branded under the name Hailun. I can't go into details about future events, but I think it will definately be pleasing to the general public as far as what they can receive in value compared to price.

Thanks again, and congratulations on the new piano.

Sincerely,

Top
#162997 - 02/27/07 03:45 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13974
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
turandot:

Congratulations to your new piano - you must have beaten the whole market out there hands down!

Drum roll.........

Thank you also for the detailed and very valuable information for all the poor consumers and greatly misguided retailers out there -worldwide that is - swooping changes to come forward for the entire industry as of immediately.....

From now on I will only carry the following lines:

1] "Siegfried" - made solely by hand [fists?] by superior, tall and blue eyed, sword carrying Germans [blond hair a must...] with heavy set women cooking reindeer stew in enourmous outside pots....

2] "Yokoshima" - precision piano made by white haired older Japanese gentlemen displaying great wisdom and dignity, using only latest Japanese computer technology, certified to be absolutely Microsoft free....

3] "Huckleberry Finn" - 5 ton American pianos which can only be moved by at least 3 Hummers pulling them. Can double up as 'secret bomb' in case regular amunition should run out some odd place elsewhere around the world....

4] "Beijing River" - but in Chinese letters of course - made from genuine Bamboo sticks, organically grown in the Yangtse River Delta,
may or may *not* make sound according how the wind is blowing....

Let me know if and when you would like to trade up one day to any one of these above fine specimen - all being pianos fully certified to be of 100% national and cultural identity.

No more stencil-bencil..........

Norbert \:D
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#162998 - 02/27/07 08:57 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
To Fathertopianist

You're right. There are many interesting people to get to know here. I have enjoyed exchanging messages with some of them, and look forward to meeting more.

About Wagner, that's a good analogy for the latest PSS thread: a libretto short on substance but long on Sturm and Drang.

To fingers and mdsdurango

Many thanks for your support.

To Terry Wilson

I look forward to seeing the coming improvements in PSS marketing

To Ori Bukai

Thanks for your kind message. If somehow in the future a piano of Chinese manufacture finds a place in your showroom, it will be an endorsement for its maker worth its weight in gold.

To Monica Kern

If anything meaningful comes from Ebay I will post it.

To Norbert

No drumroll for me. I'm a careful shopper but a poor bargainer. I actually wrote down four serial numbers of pianos I liked the first day I visited the store where I eventually bought. As you would probably guess, I played every piano in the store. (They wouldn't let me play the $50 trade-ins in the dumpster...... something about insurance) When I left, I gave the paper to the manager and asked him to figure out the best price he could give me on each of the four and to call me the next day. After he gave me the prices, I never asked him to budge off them. I was satisfied. I liked the people I was dealing with.

By the way, your advice just isn't useful. When I tried to bring prices down by simply saying I was really impressed with Steigerman premium, they brought a corkscrew and asked "What vintage?" And even though I read the biochem text (as you advised), I still can't get a date. Do you think one of those women cooking the reindeer stew would be willing....aw..never mind!

To Schwammerl

Yours is the best advice I've heard in a long time. You are absolutely right.I need to stop thinking and start playing the piano. Thank you much. I will be in touch.

To those who want pictures

I will honor your tradition and prove that I am indeed a piano buyer. I'll post later on this thread if it's still open, or open another if it's not.

Ciao
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

Top
#162999 - 02/27/07 09:50 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?
Frank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 379
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
turandot,
Congrats and I wish you many years of musical pleasure.
I am sure, after such an enlightening journey,it is nice to now just make music. And please yourself.
I applaud you.
Many happy hours.

Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
_________________________
Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com

Top
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