Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Hailun, anyone?

I've found this thread interesting, as I live in Hong Kong, and recently had my 1950's vintage August Forster rebuild up in ZhuHai by Eddy Piano here. Eddy (the owners English name) has to be the most knowledgable piano technician I have ever met. And during my visits to his factory, he gave me some insight into how China is revolutionizing piano building. It's nothing really radical, but they have aggressively adopted CNC for nearly every part that can be cost effectively made, and at a scale unmatched anywhere, including Japan and Korea (most of the machines are in Samick, Cort, etc. factories in Tianjin as I understand). Then they have quality woodworkers at a fraction of the cost of Japan, Germany etc. As far as I can see, there is nowhere where the knowledge of guys like Eddy lags their European or Japanese counterparts. Where the building differs is in innovation to keep the price affordable.

And as one post mentioned, China is in the position of Japan in the 1960s ... it doesn't have a good reputation for quality. So it is common to buy up established brands like Wendl& Lung for example. My guess is that the modern piano industry is like the watch industry. Most of the work happens in China, but final assembly and setup occurs in the home country. Part of this may be quality control, but I suspect a lot of it is just transfer pricing and bragging rights (German piano vs. Chinese). Again, as far as I can see, the Chinese piano makers have the same skills, knowledge and dedication to quality that their European or Japanese peers do; they just don't have the reputation yet.

Hi Dino Flacco,

Thanks for your valuable informations. There is something wrong thought, you wrote:

I am the distributer/retailer for Wendl&Lung in Québec - Eastern Canada. I am located near the US borders in Eastern Townships of Québec.

I already have one Mod.178 grand and another one on the way. Just came back from a trip to Vienna for a 3 weeks training with M. Peter Veletzky and M. Sibin Zlatkovic. Those people are soo nice and passionate of what they do. All the staff at Wendl&Lung are real musicians and artists. It was the first time in my 30 years career as piano tech-tuner that I meet people with this profile. I was used to "businessman". So refreshing!

How is this posssible?

As Dino pointed out, there is a firm agreement in place that Wendl&Lung pianos are not to be marketed or sold anywhere in North America.

And Steigerman Premium pianos, specially built to our very own specifications for this market by the way - *not* in Europe.

Of course, one could always rent a warehouse near Vienna and get going there.....

By the way, I have never heard of a *distributor* who starts with one single piano.

You're sure you're not "distributing" this piano just to yourself?

Norbert

Some time ago in this thread Norbert asked Schwammerl why he was getting so exercised about Hailun/Steigerman/W&L when he was so happy with his W&L. While I can't answer for Schwammerl, I can answer on my behalf, as I'm in the same position. I bought a W&L in the full knowledge it's made in China (it has Ningbo in big letters on the frame) and I'm very happy with it almost a year later.

However when I realised that (probably) the same piano is sold under the name Hailun and another very similar piano (possibly the same design but with different action) I did fell a little cheated. It shook my faith in what I'd understood the relationship between W&L and Hailun to be, and made me think that the great, cheap piano I'd bought wasn't quite so special.

Now I've got over all that (after playing the piano, a lot) but I would still like to understand the relationship between W&L and Steigerman Premium to work out if they're really the same or not.

But I can't say I'm too exercised about it - I'm more interested in playing my lovely W&L/Hailun 161 grand.

Which is what it's really all about.

Many people here don't understand - and I don't really blame them - that making a product and marketing it,especially around the world,are 2 different things.

I don't know about Wendl & Lung in Vienna, but Canadian based Steigerman Music Corp has been a distributor of pianos on this continent for a very long time.

They were the ones first bringing Yamaha pianos first to Canada [in the early 60's I believe...] at a time nobody knew of Yamaha or wanted to see their name on a piano.

Call it what you will, but the Loewen family [owners] certainly always had a nose for what's moving and shaking.

Or coming up.....

Hailun may make the most wonderful piano in the world - but they need someone help them to bring it to market.

If one day they will be big enough to run the whole show by themselves, so be it.

Yamaha did the same, but their pianos didn't stay at the $ 200 for new uprights at the time they were simply called 'Steigerman' back in the 60's.

Norbert

So I heard that the president of Hailun USA (Theresa Perry) is the wife of the CEO of Pearl River. How interesting is that?

from Norbert

Norbert,

Could you elaborate on the help that a distributor such as Steigerman would provide to a factory such as Hailun in bringing its products to market? I'm not trying to be cute with this question. I think it would be very enlightening to know. I think I understand the W&L connection to be more a piano design collaboration than a simple distribution channel. What is the Steigerman expertise that Hailun profits from?

Also, I think you're saying from the Yamaha example that when Hailun sells its porducts through a distribution channel like Steigerman the consumer will pay less. In a normal marketing chain, the price goes up with each entity that is added between maker and final consumer. How does the consumer save here?

Again, I'm not trying to be cute. I'd like to have a better understanding.

Turandot:

Before I entered the piano business I had very little understanding myself of how the market works - or for that matter anything else in business.

Please let me try to answer some of your questions here to the very best of my since additionally 'learned' knowledge though I certainly shall make no attempt to be a lecturer of economics....

Distribution, as anybody in business knows, has long become a very important aspect of selling all kinds of goods, especially worldwide, something I learned in a rather shocking way as young kid when growing up in Germany.

At that time my father worked for Siemens, a very respected German company. As an employee, my dad was able to get all our home appliances considerably cheaper by buying "in house" - as a result, all our radios,TV's washing machines,etc were of the "Siemens" brand.

One day when our TV needed some fixing, a repair Van pulled up with the sign "Sony Reparaturen" on it.

To my dad's and my own's disbelief [my dad worked mostly on the company's large turbines and big stuff division...] - we learned at that time that the entire inside of the "Siemens" TV had actually been manufactured by Sony in Japan, a company with far greater home electronics market penetration than Siemens ever had.

German consumers, always preferring to buy their own home made stuff, of course now got solidly *cheated*, as the goods they were buying had actually been manufactered by someone else in Japan.....

Or had they?

It's the first time I learned about the intricate, intermixed world of business between manufacturer and distributors - Sony apparently in return acting as a 'distributor' for Siemens, selling Siemens turbines to some of their own customers far East.....

For outsiders, Sony and Siemens may have looked like competitors in the market - but in reality they had long become allies resulting in selling more stuff as a combined market force!

Enter Hailun and the piano business.
[and the rest of the world if you will... ]

Companies, especially new ones like Hailun specializing mainly in manufacturing, often depend on distributors with large established market penetration, this in order to get their product happening in a rather fast way - certainly much quicker than they could ever have done it all on their own.

Steigerman, as the previous distributors for a variety of pianos including Yamaha, Samick and several other makers, happens to be such company.

Adding important propietory features to the piano itself - this in addition to a better known private label name, at least in our hemisphere [nobody is denying it *is*] - the resulting larger orders for factory result not only in a much wider market spread, but also translate into much more aggressive investment opportunities and R&D,etc for the mother company itself.

Essentially and often misunderstood, this not only lowers the cost of manufacturing for the factory itself - but also typically affects actually lower price levels for consumers in the end. [called 'economics of scale'...]

This is exactly, what Steigerman Music Corp or Wendl & Lung *can* and *are* doing for Hailun - to specifically answer your question.

Were this not the case, these companies would never even dream to work together on the scale they are now.

For consumers in general and high end products aside, the essential question wether or not to buy a product on the market today, will simply depend on what the product offers itself in terms of quality and price.

Far less appear to be interested to analyse detail corporate structures and/or the interwovenness of international business today.

In case of doubt, one can simply always buy something entirely different,however such product makes sense to you - being an individual and seeing things on an individual basis.

For example something such as a hopelessly overpriced, but otherwise non-chalant, non-distinguishable, virtually everyday-type of product,pricing itself primarily on name recognition only - of course nicely manufactured and distributed by same, identical company of original manufacture.... :p

Rest assured, the owner/CEO or chairman will insist to live in utter, opulent and almost unimaginable luxury as well.

Of course at - *your* expense......

Norbert

From Norbert:
and:
and:
First of all I am confident that many people on this forum do understand the mechanics of marketing channels, that they are not necessarily shocked by partnerships, parts exchanges etc. and that many realise that setting up a world-wide marketing channel for any product or service is perhaps one of the most difficult and expensive exercises for any business; for many businesses marketing expenses largely exceed R&D, development and production costs.
Typically a company will have to decide about the "level-type" of distribution channel (and the number of intermediates within each channel):
- it could be a zero-level channel where the manufacturer is selling directly to the consumer; e.g. Samsonite Corp. has in major cities of the world own Samsonite shops (owning the shop and selling directly to the enduser), or as far as these or owned by S&S, Steinway has shops like Steinway Berlin or London;
- it could be a one-level channel, where the manufacturer is selling through various retailers;
- or a two-level channel with as intermediates wholesalers = distributors (either on a exclusive or selective basis) and retailers. An example of a wholesaler/distributor in the piano business would be Geneva Int'l for Petrof in North America (non exclusive because they also carry other brands form other manufacturers like Nordiska)
Choices have to be made on the basis of economic criteria, control criteria and adaptive criteria (commitments made by the various intermediates invariably lead to a decrease in the producer's ability to respond to a changing marketplace).

But this is not a marketing forum. Anyone wishing to more about the subject might e.g. by a book like "Marketing Management" by Philip Kotler (Prentice_Hall International, Inc.) and read chapter 20.

This is even not what it is all about. In this Hailun example there is not just a straight two-level distribution channel we are talking about. There is the classic model with Hailun U.S. as the wholesaler/distributor and the network of dealers they are now trying to set up in the U.S.. But Hailun also has other channel types where "intermediates" like W&L or Steigerman brand/label the products differently and make specific claims about parts used (hammers, actions, soundboards) or Q.C. prep., voicing or cabinet finishing details. Then I find it legimitate that consumers on this forum start asking questions like "are all these products the same or not?"
If today e.g. the Steigerman Premium line grands would get a ranking in L. Fine's book (assuming we all agree with the validity of those rankings) as a tier X and one would ask can I extrapolate that to a Hailun or W&L grand of the same size, I would say, today no you cannot. Perhaps in the future when many owners have shared their experiences, members who have testdriven these side by site have published their findings we might say something sensible about this. For the time being every potential buyer will have to judge these instruments on their own merrits, and - as a personal view - not forget to put the quality of a specific dealer into the balance; for me a pîano is only as good as the dealer is.

From JohnEB:
In fact I am not exercised about it. It is just when I read statements that to me look like over- simplifications or fast extrapolations I jump on it. No hidden agenda at all, as I was suspected one day - when at that time just merely looking at a W&L and still owning a Boston upright -, just sharing my views. If today someone would open a thread that starts like "Hailun HG161 - any good?", I will not reply "I own a W&L 161 and am very satisfied because of....; so you could not go wrong". That is an extrapolation I am not entitled to make today.

schwammerl.

Dino wrote: So then no one can sell Bosendorfer in North America?

Dino wrote: Actually Dino, it's rather the other way around:

Sibin Zlatkovic is the voicing and prep specialist of Wendl&Lung
Peter Veletzy is the piano designer of Wendl&Lung

Those two gentlemen are not employed by M. Chen, it is rather the opposite i.e. people at Wendl&Lung do business with M. Chen and his manufacturing facilities to make/build their pianos. They have a partnership.

Question here:

Dino, please tell me who is the piano designer of Steigerman?

Dino wrote: Here is a picture of the first Wendl&Lung in Canada. I have it here in Magog, Québec. Notice the Bosendorfer plate colour too.


Mario wrote: Norbert wrote: Apparently no!

Norbert wrote: I Just came back from a master-training in voicing and piano prep at Wendl&Lung in Vienna. At Wendl&Lung they make sure with whom they deal with. They wont send pianos to plain businessman but rather to thru collaborators who can give justice to their pianos with good prep and service to buyers. At Wendl&Lung, they make things differently and this is what attracked me in the first place when I meet them at the 2006 Frankfurt MusikMesse. People at Wendl&Lung dont correspond to the profile one is used in the piano business.

They have given me the task of finding the “other” collaborators all over Québec Eastern Canada so that is why I used the term “distributer”. If you like Norbert, I can change that to “dealer”. Whatever suit you. But please give me a break, I must start somewhere! I’m just beginning in piano retail business. Piano tech-tuner for 30 years but never took a business in piano retail.

Norbert wrote: Huh… I already own and play a 1893 Bluthner 7’

Then JohnEB wrote: Maybe not “so special” anymore but still a great musical instrument and a great buy.

JohnEB wrote: The story I have is this one.

Ningbo Hailun musical instruments used NOT to make complete pianos and where focusing solely on the production of piano parts for numerous famous piano names. Then came the meeting between M. Hailun Chen and the people from Wendl&Lung Vienna i.e. Peter Veletzky, Ernest Bittner, Lin Bai (whose uncle introduced M. Hailun Chen) and Sibin Zlatkovic. From that meeting, M. Chen decided to partneship with Wendl&Lung to build pianos for the first time. It was a mutual agreement.

After this, M. Chen had to invest a BIG amount of money to design and build the High Technology Machines needed to make the Wendl&Lung pianos. Following this pressure, M. Chen decided to market some Wendl&Lung pianos under his own name “Hailun piano”. Furthermore, M. Chen could not pass away the opportunity to “expand” his market with the Steigerman Premiums “orders”

All this might sound confusing for the end buyer but with time, this rather delicate and confusing situation will get “clarified”.

Turandot wrote: Steigerman is definitely helping Hailun to sell more pianos. And you’re right that the collaboration between Hailun and Wendl&Lung is on an equal basis. It is the Wendl&Lung team that made possible the production of pianos by the Ningbo Hailun Musical Instrument Company. Like you, I would also like to know the Steigerman expertise in piano design. Did Steigerman designed their premium pianos?

But all this is out of topic of this tread. So people just make sure you try as much piano/make as possible before making your final decision. Remember to listen with you heart and soul, not with your head or mind.

Mario:

You will very soon contacted by factory to make a retraction/correction of introducing yourself as a bona fide distributor of Wendl & Lung pianos within North America/Canada.

There a clear contracts written and signed to this effect and I am sorry if you have been led to believe otherwise.

Wendl&Lung Pianos, made also by Hailun, are to be distributed on the European continent only - they may have other features or elements of design of their own.

Dino is right now in China and will have this matter resolved as we speak.

I can't speak for Wendl & Lung, but the Steigerman Premium line of piano has primarily been designed by George F. Emerson, previous designer for the Mason Hamlin line of pianos.

Steigerman has extensively consulted with Mr.Emerson in the past and is consulting now in regards to some of the new models coming out in near future.

Certain upgraded and exclusive features of pianos built by Hailun are only available on Steigerman pianos, such as Renner hammers for example, a type of hammer we found quite crucial in tone enhancement on certain models.

Thank you for your enthusiasm for Hailun built pianos - you're right pointing them out to be among the very best built and best sounding Chinese pianos on the market today!

Norbert

I wonder what is really going to happen when Hailun US is in force. After all, they are the builders.
I have the contract...
no, I do..
My plate colour...
no, Mine...

Inquiring minds.. (sorry Jolly, your line)


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com

Frank:

You love this subject, don't you?

Do you really think it makes your line of Chinese built "Heintzman" pianos sell any better by stirring the pot each time this kind of discussion comes up?

Trying to create a sense of 'confusion' - when there clearly isn't any?

Insider tip:

"Have whoever builds,ownes,operates or distributes "Heintzman" pianos
- or is it also "Gerhard Heintzman" now? web page - build a better piano than Hailun presently does" - by *whatever* name.

Customers and piano shoppers will surely be able to take quickly note of that.....

Norbert

This is great!

from Wzkit
from Norbert
(Apparently tiny Singapore has been annexed by Europe.)

**************

from Dino Flacca
from Mario Bruneau
********************

from Steigerman Music website
from Dino Flacco
*****************

from Tery Wilson
from Axtremus
****************

from Mario Bruneau
from Norbert
******************

from Turandot
from Norbert
*****************

from Terry Wilson
from Frank
and finally from Norbert

Turandot-the only agenda here not clear is yours.

Turandot:

Can I ask you a personal question,

"Do you have a life?"

Norbert :rolleyes:

Aw, come on, Norbert,

Which of us that hangs out on the forum obsessing about pianos has a life????

Margaret

It's not a matter of 'obsessing about pianos' when pianos and companies are being discussed here for consumers to know exactly what's going on.

There are certain individuals here who clearly have a vested interest in spewing false information or controversies of sorts:

- tell me why someone relatively new here with few posts to boot, should suddenly be so interested to write long and multi-paragraph posts about distribution of Hailun made pianos in North America and Europe, their different territories,their individual specs, etc.

If such person is not satisfied with what a particular piano offers in terms of any of that - he simply doesn't have to buy it.

Is is not perhaps a little particular that tunadot, who claims to have long bought a different piano for himself - never telling *what* exactly, mind you - keeps digging in this subject here, being of little interest to the average consumer, while showing clear enjoyment and glee about a sense of controversy he has created here?

It's become my conviction - and it's quite evident if you read his various posts here - that the 'obesession' shown by certain people to write so extensively on a subject so far removed from their own actual life, - is simply done to create confusion and/or controversy about a competitor out there - plain and simple.

Hailun company,which is presently making a considerable impact on the market, becoming most likely one of the most important players of new pianos coming from China, will soon come to make a statement.

Warning: there will be a few red faces thereafter.....

End of 'obsession'

Norbert